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blankseplocked Nerfing wormholes again??? Really CCP?
 
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Jonathan Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.16 16:54:00 - [121]
 

So we haven't got much of a response ITT, but Jade has stepped up on failheap and is fighting for his ABC against that stubborn asshat, Meissa (I can't believe Mynxee got me to vote for you. Shame on you, Mynxee!)

To summarize Meissa's argument:

- mining in wormholes is much less safe than mining in 0.0
- mining in wormholes is much less profitable than mining in 0.0 (due to refinery and belt size/quality/frequency/accessibility)
- I don't care, **** you and your wormholes. Move to 0.0 and grab a 'special shovel'.

Roosterton
Eternal Frontier
Posted - 2011.07.16 17:14:00 - [122]
 

Grudgingly agreeing with a Ferguson post. Neutral

Mr Kidd
Posted - 2011.07.16 17:27:00 - [123]
 

Edited by: Mr Kidd on 16/07/2011 17:28:57
Why ABC in w-space is on the table, I don't even! It's the equivalent of bulldozing oasis' in the desert because it gives them too much water.

Potamus Jenkins
The Lucky Bible Company
Posted - 2011.07.16 17:36:00 - [124]
 

Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Mrs Pwnage
Originally by: Demon Azrakel
Not sure how many people mine in w-space, but, given how rarely we come across them, I think it is rather few. If you are searching for a location to blame an excess of high-end minerals on, check the upper-right-hand corner of the map.


I came across an orca and 3x hulks jumping in a WH yesterday. Killed a bunch of cruisers and BS with mining crap fitted at a dead POS about two weeks ago; they do it. It's like everything else in WH's, catching them in the act is the problem.


Doubtful. Orcas are not something that you casually take into wormholes to mine with. Orcas you see in holes are there to provide bonuses to mining ops from within the relative safety of pos shields, or to haul large amounts of goods in our out (pos's, arrays, etc.). You can scan an orca nearly instantly with probes, then it's munching time.

We've, without exaggerating, never had anyone come in and try to mine a grav site. First, they'd have to find one. Then they'd have to deal with the Sleeper rats. Then they'd have to mine without someone making their ships go Boom.

Let's say you did see that... it would be exceedingly rare, and stupid.


beware the bait orca

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2011.07.16 18:09:00 - [125]
 

The really fun part about all this is those people not realizing that their little sociopath empires offer nothing, zero, nada to attract the industrial entrepreneur.

So yea, lets just nerf all other options, they'll have to come to us then, right?

Wrong, they still wont deal with your sociopath empire. They will deal with the russians however who are a whole lot smarter when it comes to good business.

Sarina Berghil
Minmatar
New Zion Judge Advocate
Yulai Federation
Posted - 2011.07.16 18:33:00 - [126]
 

What I don't understand is the reason for removing ABC ores from low-end WHs. What would CCP try to accomplish with that?

Jonathan Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.16 18:56:00 - [127]
 

I thought this blog post on the subject (it overlaps somewhat with general CSM VI ignorance/incompetence) was pretty good. An excerpt:

"Let's see. If I remember my last mining op, it was way back when I used to live in a C4. Our best mining field that had ABC ore had exactly 1 rock of Arkonor, 1 rock of Bistot, and 3 rocks of Crokite. And when I say rocks, I truly mean rocks. I had to zoom the camera in all the way to see them. Hell my Incursus hull was bigger then the rock. Let's just say I wasn't landing the Millennium Falcon in them."

Hakaru Ishiwara
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.07.16 19:42:00 - [128]
 

Originally by: Mrs Pwnage
Edited by: Mrs Pwnage on 13/07/2011 22:25:06
Wormholes are already losing their appeal; if it keeps up they will be just like nullsec, no one but POS tenders in 90% of it.

I blame adding probes to overview so it is easier to see them in space where you are not supposed to know someone is there. It broke the dynamics, and the thrill that you could get jumped at any moment to where it is almost completely safe. Just spam the scan button and run away the second you see probes.
Oh nonsense. The attentive pilot just unchecked their 'use overview settings' checkbox for d-scan and looked for probes. Additionally, gangs would have a dedicated pilot or two looking for probes.

This change did not ruin the hunt at all. Many pilots are still **** and don't look for probes.

Mr Dilkington
Posted - 2011.07.16 19:46:00 - [129]
 

I dont mine but this sounds like a stupid idea, mining in c1-c2 can involve alot of logistics moving the ore to safe space from the WH.

Sarina Berghil
Minmatar
New Zion Judge Advocate
Yulai Federation
Posted - 2011.07.17 05:42:00 - [130]
 

Having listened to the fireside chat, it briefly touched something that makes this thing make a little bit more sense, but I got the impression that some of the CSM guys interpreted it wrong.

Maybe I got it wrong, but someone mentioned that the data suggested that Class 3 and Class 4 wormholes were pulling out large amounts of ABC. That makes a lot of sense to me, because those backend systems are relatively safe from a PvP perspective, and sleeper rats are quite easy to clear.
Established settlers can mine a lot of ore from these holes, but those are by no means daytrippers jumping in from Jita. Those are people that have to fight to hold their systems and keep them safe, in many ways the same that Empire null-sec people do. But even then the ABC available from these systems must be miniscule amounts compared to empire null.

Class 1 and Class 2 systems are quite different. They are much more dangerous from a small scale pvp perspective and they only have minor amounts of high-end ore. It's possible to daytrip class 1 and class 2 holes, but it is by no means a profitable endeavour, and I very much doubt they contribute much to the influx of ore.


So is it even important to have ABC in wormholes? From an economic perspective probably not, but it is a good conflict driver and w-space would be a more boring place for everyone without it.

Jack Tronic
Posted - 2011.07.17 06:16:00 - [131]
 

Edited by: Jack Tronic on 17/07/2011 06:16:39
Edited by: Jack Tronic on 17/07/2011 06:16:22
Originally by: Potamus Jenkins
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Mrs Pwnage
Originally by: Demon Azrakel
Not sure how many people mine in w-space, but, given how rarely we come across them, I think it is rather few. If you are searching for a location to blame an excess of high-end minerals on, check the upper-right-hand corner of the map.


I came across an orca and 3x hulks jumping in a WH yesterday. Killed a bunch of cruisers and BS with mining crap fitted at a dead POS about two weeks ago; they do it. It's like everything else in WH's, catching them in the act is the problem.


Doubtful. Orcas are not something that you casually take into wormholes to mine with. Orcas you see in holes are there to provide bonuses to mining ops from within the relative safety of pos shields, or to haul large amounts of goods in our out (pos's, arrays, etc.). You can scan an orca nearly instantly with probes, then it's munching time.

We've, without exaggerating, never had anyone come in and try to mine a grav site. First, they'd have to find one. Then they'd have to deal with the Sleeper rats. Then they'd have to mine without someone making their ships go Boom.

Let's say you did see that... it would be exceedingly rare, and stupid.


beware the bait orca


They may mine it but the logistics are just dumb, ninja mining with an orca would mean you are using it to haul, when hauling with an orca you are effectively critting the holes in just a few jumps. ~500mil each jump so at the veyr most int he highest classes, 6 trips before the wormhole collaspes.

Lyrrashae
Minmatar
Crushed Ambitions
Posted - 2011.07.17 07:20:00 - [132]
 

Originally by: Discrodia
I blame the community, because most of them were too myopic, apathetic, and downright stupid to prevent stacking the CSM with 0.0 napfesters.


Fixed.

Zey Nadar
Gallente
Unknown Soldiers
Posted - 2011.07.17 07:20:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: Sarina Berghil
What I don't understand is the reason for removing ABC ores from low-end WHs. What would CCP try to accomplish with that?


Putting them in-line with low-end nullsec system?

Elaine Solarheart
Posted - 2011.07.17 07:58:00 - [134]
 

I'll just leave this here........Walk the Walk Before You Talk the Talk


Gurgeh Murat
Minmatar
Blue Republic
Posted - 2011.07.17 08:07:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Zey Nadar
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
What I don't understand is the reason for removing ABC ores from low-end WHs. What would CCP try to accomplish with that?


Putting them in-line with low-end nullsec system?


Like the low end null sec systems with no local channel alert, cyno jammers or immediate alliance support in case of hostiles? The low end null systems with various anomalies, ability to plan supply lines, jumpbridges... Or are you talking about the awful nullsec systems with NPC stations where you can refine, dock, repair and refit without shipping in your ice products and worrying if your sentry guns can deal with an attack?

Your absolutely right, lets turn low end nullsec into low end WH's...at least theyre even aye?

Kiran
Minmatar
Knights of Azrael
Anti-Social Outcast
Posted - 2011.07.17 08:14:00 - [136]
 

The CSM are trying to force everyone to 0.0/sov space. They want you to stop mining so their bots can be the only miners getting the ABC ores and then force you to pay silly prices on the market.

Its not just the ores they want removed from wormholes, they have also stated they wish to remove all level 4 agents from high sec as well.

Estephania
Independent Political Analysts
Posted - 2011.07.17 09:31:00 - [137]
 

Edited by: Estephania on 17/07/2011 09:31:01
Well, CSM position is quite understandable. Those 200 ppl strong supercap fleets were expensive thing to build and they are not crushing anything on the way for nothing. Ppl want a good ROI on that and try to eliminate any competition.

Midori Amiiko
Gallente
NerdHerd
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.07.17 10:16:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: Astrid Raholan
Originally by: Discrodia

The desire is not to have the options curtailed by those asshats who got alliances to elect them, rather than any immediate desire to go mine ABC in WH space.


You mean the option to go into a class 1 wormhole with a highsec exit and mine ABC minerals?

Yeah, I can see the risk v reward right there.


Those sites are puny...and they have to be scanned down. There are no belts in W-space systems. Class 1 systems are the most heavily-trafficked, least secure systems to mine in.

Mister QK
Posted - 2011.07.17 14:35:00 - [139]
 

You know who would hurt the most from this? The small time mining and industry corps who are just trying to make an honest living and enjoy what they do.

Just because we don't want to become a "part" of the great 0.0 alliances doesn't mean we do not try our best to crave out a small corner in the universe to live in.

WH space is by no means a place filled with rainbows and ponies, in reality it takes a lot of time and money before you start to see the returns, and all the while putting yourself at great risk to all factors both within and beyond our control.
Perhaps us small corps are just insignificant in the bigger picture, but even we strive for a better things.

Isaa'c
Posted - 2011.07.17 14:46:00 - [140]
 

Originally by: Neuralyzer
Edited by: Neuralyzer on 13/07/2011 22:19:03
Personally, I think its ridiculous that wormholes have the best rats. We should move sleepers to nullsec space and just install crappy agents in WHs since they're overly secure, and don't require the massive military might to hold like nullsec does. In fact, nullsec should be the only area that has any way to make money. L4s should be removed, WHs closed, and only Omber will be left to mine in high/low/WH space.


Laughing

AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.19 22:25:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: Alu Utukku
http://talocanunited.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/hilownullwh.jpg

Image changed to a link. Spitfire

Thank-you, sir.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.07.20 13:03:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Zey Nadar
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
What I don't understand is the reason for removing ABC ores from low-end WHs. What would CCP try to accomplish with that?


Putting them in-line with low-end nullsec system?


Considering wormholes are even more negative than the best of null space (-1.0 in a hole) that would be pretty damned stupid. Even more so when you consider most C1 and C2 holes with high statics are populated it's clear to anyone with even a hint of knowledge that you simply don't "daytrip" these holes for ore. The losses you'll have in ships will easily out-weigh any mining income using this method.

Aelius
Caldari
Mnemonic Enterprises
Dark Matter Coalition
Posted - 2011.07.20 15:11:00 - [143]
 

For the good of the "research" i share with you a part of our killboard.

WH mini Hulkaggeddon

Now, after that, who can say WH is safe to mine, and who can say that if they had local the outcome would be the same?!

Asuri Kinnes
Caldari
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2011.07.20 15:31:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: Jaigar
MY ADHOC BROS! Wooo, one of the few respectable wormhole PvP corps. Good fun running into you guys.

But yeah, the biggest disappointment about this is how disconnected CSM is with wormholes. There was someone who finished like 9th place in votes from AHARM for CSM, and he would have been the first WH representative. But us WH dwellers are few and most of us seperate ourselves from the politics of EVE, so how would it ever be possible for us to get representation?

Nice to see you too - Keep kicking ass, we'll run into each other again, I'm sure! Wink
Originally by: Ciar Meara
Daytripping miners?
<<snippage>>
Prices of ore are more influenced by botters, and if they are influenced by "daytrippers", good, its a valid game mechanic that doesn't need changing cause some whiny 0.0 CSM's.

Yeah! Can't be providing income from actual *players*... Rolling Eyes
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Stosh Redwood
I agree with this. Null needs more people. If there are no ABC ores in nothing but null that will change prices and bring people to null sec.

Good job CCP

Please, close your mouth. You're leaking stupid on the carpet.

I rofl'd irl... Good one! +1 internet to you sir!
Originally by: Gnulpie
The CSM has no clue about wormholes . . . <snip'd>
There is a better post about it here.

Why thank you! Thank you very much! (/in my best elvis voice)
Originally by: VaMei
You do know that WHs have links to other WHs right? And that WH corps farm the random connected systems before collapsing the hole and getting another one.

Yeah, we farm them for miners... Rolling Eyes
Originally by: raker
I would like to see the figures of the actual population of players that reside in WH's

My bet is less than 5%

Page 10, top graph, bottom entry
End of Q4 - 2.45% of the player-base...

2.45% FFS! Yeah, gotta be TONNES of **** that we're "crashing..." Dolts!
Originally by: Sinikka Huiputti
i dont know if c1 or c2 have high ends but they really shouldn't cos they're like hi sec holes.

wh's are not simply 0.0 because they might just have like constant hi sec exits which makes them much more comfortable than real 0.0 where you most likely need to go much deeper to find good hi end mining system.

Yeah, a system where no one can get to you, behind your Cyno Jammer, Blue list, Local and Intell channels. Unlike Hi-Sec wormholes, where *anyone* with a probe can find you.Rolling Eyes
Originally by: Zey Nadar
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
What I don't understand is the reason for removing ABC ores from low-end WHs. What would CCP try to accomplish with that?

Putting them in-line with low-end nullsec system?

So no local, no persistent routes in or out, no intel channels, no cyno-jammers and no blues is in-line with low-end Nullsec? Sorry, there is more risk in a C1 than a low-end, alliance controlled null-sec system (unless boarder).

WHEW!Laughing

Jonathan Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.24 20:38:00 - [145]
 

So how about it, CCP? If you think nerfing wormholes again is justifiable, post a dev blog on that specific issue, make your arguments, then let those of us who understand the issue better than you do tell you why you're wrong.

(Hint: it boils down to this. Mining in WH is far more dangerous and less lucrative than mining in k-space 0.0. You don't nerf stuff that's underpowered to begin with.)

Cancel Align NOW
Posted - 2011.07.24 20:41:00 - [146]
 

Seriously, your mindless hate is a wonder to behold.

Jon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.27 04:30:00 - [147]
 

Edited by: Jon Ferguson on 27/07/2011 04:30:22
Voices from the Void: CSM White Tree revealing how ignorant he still is about the ABC in WH issue (it's very early (first 15 minutes) in the interview.)

He also thinks newbies should be handed huge chunks of SP.

There are no words. Why do these people even play EVE?

Zyracon
Posted - 2011.07.27 04:55:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: Jon Ferguson
Edited by: Jon Ferguson on 27/07/2011 04:30:22
Voices from the Void: CSM White Tree revealing how ignorant he still is about the ABC in WH issue (it's very early (first 15 minutes) in the interview.)

He also thinks newbies should be handed huge chunks of SP.

There are no words. Why do these people even play EVE?


"We would be interested in making the lives of wormholers easier."

He then goes on to admitting he doesn't know too much about wormholes but they were presented with data from CCP that is indicating a lot of ABC is coming from wormholes. Its not like CCP is going to nerf it tomorrow but its worth looking into.

Your sad little obsession with the CSM/Mittani/Goons-- while a little funny, is starting to be worrisome. Go find a girl or something.

Takashi Kaeda
Posted - 2011.07.27 05:07:00 - [149]
 

Originally by: Jon Ferguson
Edited by: Jon Ferguson on 27/07/2011 04:30:22
Voices from the Void: CSM White Tree revealing how ignorant he still is about the ABC in WH issue (it's very early (first 15 minutes) in the interview.)

He also thinks newbies should be handed huge chunks of SP.

There are no words. Why do these people even play EVE?


Get out. All you do is cherrypick arguments.

Originally by: raiden55

Linkage
577 mining ships killed on these last days
on them ;
54.5% on HS
16.6% on LS
14.2% on 0.0
14.7% on WH

from this it seems there's about the same number of miners loss on nullsec and w-space

% of kills between space, value corrected with the population :
10,3% on Empire
15,8% on 0.0
73,9% on WH



W-space mining certainly looks like it could be increasing. I don't think that's what wormholes were intended to be, and CCP is looking into fixing that. If you need a carrier in your C3 you're doing it wrong anyways.

Cave Lord
Posted - 2011.07.27 06:05:00 - [150]
 

Since I refuse to resubscribe until CCP fixes the NEX store, I've taken a backseat to most of the politics and ragers and everything else, but I do visit the forums and check up on things.

My background: My background is pretty much a high-sec carebear. However, I love the EVE storyline, I love wormholes, I love how they are dangerous, I love how they are easily accessible and HARD to navigate to. I love the sleepers, and I love working with people in the fringes of known space eeking out a living.

With that said. I specifically logged in because of Elaine Solarheart's post.
This very accurately describes what wormhole life is like. It's a freaking' pain in neck, and I didn't even do half the stuff she described. Although I did take reasonable precautions. Not once was I ever secure enough for my own comfort to mine any ore/gas. I lived in a W4 with static C2's. The only thing I did was fight sleepers when there was no detectable danger. In my 1 month in WH space, I learned a lot. One of the things was that mining wasn't worth the investment because the danger was just too high to justify.

I would like to ask that if ABC ore's are removed from low-class wormholes, that CCP then attempt to make a living off of mining in WH's. They will quickly find that there is one less reason for people to go into wormholes and the people who live there will have less traffic and less pvp.

In other words: Removing ABC ore's from low-class wormholes will make low-class wh dwellers more comfortable. Surely the CSM doesn't want that now, do they?


p.s. Elaine Solarheart, Thanks for writing that all up. I wouldn't be surprised if your write-up was given to the CSM for consideration. In fact, I recommend it.

- Cave


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