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blankseplocked Nerfing wormholes again??? Really CCP?
 
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.07.14 07:13:00 - [61]
 

Removal of ABCs from WHs ... What about a comprimise, of removing ABCs and adding ice in exploration belts and at the same time move high sec ice to exploration as well.

Crazy maybe, maybe not.

Tarryn Nightstorm
Minmatar
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
Posted - 2011.07.14 07:15:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Neuralyzer
Edited by: Neuralyzer on 13/07/2011 22:19:03
Personally, I think its ridiculous that wormholes have the best rats. We should move sleepers to nullsec space and just install crappy agents in WHs since they're overly secure, and don't require the massive military might to hold like nullsec does. In fact, nullsec should be the only area that has any way to make money. L4s should be removed, WHs closed, and only Omber will be left to mine in high/low/WH space.


You are being sarcastic, right?

Tarryn Nightstorm
Minmatar
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
Posted - 2011.07.14 07:20:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Astrid Raholan
Originally by: Discrodia

The desire is not to have the options curtailed by those asshats who got alliances to elect them, rather than any immediate desire to go mine ABC in WH space.


You mean the option to go into a class 1 wormhole with a highsec exit and mine ABC minerals?

Yeah, I can see the risk v reward right there.


If you had a clue, then you'd know why the C1/hisec has, arguably, the greater, if not greatest risk, with, again arguably, the least reward, as far as w-space goes.

Ned Black
Posted - 2011.07.14 07:25:00 - [64]
 

Heh... 0.0 is the safest place in eve... 30 jumps through nothing but blue standings makes it as safe as it gets...

If anything make it so that if there is to much friendly sov around a system in 0.0 the high end mins disappear from it... but then again... the CSM are mostly bigshot 0.0 people, so why is anyone surpised they want to cut the competition?

Sarina Berghil
Minmatar
New Zion Judge Advocate
Yulai Federation
Posted - 2011.07.14 07:26:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Removal of ABCs from WHs ... What about a comprimise, of removing ABCs and adding ice in exploration belts and at the same time move high sec ice to exploration as well.

Crazy maybe, maybe not.


That would help wormhole life a lot. But it probably wouldn't happen since its not a nerf, and hardly a compromise ;-)

Glyken Touchon
Gallente
Independent Alchemists
Posted - 2011.07.14 10:45:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Jonathan Ferguson
"CCP talked about removing ABC (Arkonor, Bistot and Crokite) mining sites from wormhole space at some point in the future. This may be from all wormholes, or possibly from lower class wormholes only. It was claimed by some members of the CSM that a large fraction of the high end ore supply is produced through these sites, however the CSMs who were active in wormholes would not accept this claim without hard data to back it up."
Good for those people who asked for evidence. I would hope that CCP wouldn't act without it anyway.

Asking CCP's research & stats people to investigate sources of minerals is not an issue, and is one of the benefits of CSM's direct contact with CCP. If there is a perceived problem with something, then they can highlight it to the stats guys, who can investigate and find out if there an actual problem or not.

Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari
Deep Space Nomads Corp
Posted - 2011.07.14 11:08:00 - [67]
 

Wormholes are perfect as it is now. No need to nerf or buff them. It's null that needs a nerf, more precisely passive income of the null. Moon goo needs to be nerfed.

Discrodia
Gallente
Symbiosis International
Moose Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.14 11:12:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
Wormholes are perfect as it is now. No need to nerf or buff them. It's null that needs a nerf, more precisely passive income of the null. Moon goo needs to be nerfed.

You forgot the botter income that is perfectly safe and makes boatloads of money.

Aedeal
Posted - 2011.07.14 11:13:00 - [69]
 

Agreed. Those CSM members that complained should be taken out the back and shot!

Serious notes. Mining inside a WH means:

No local so you can't just dock up when a roaming gang comes in
Maximum yield of 0.75%
Refinery is slow and eats a TON of ice, which you can't get in WHs
The stuff is amazingly bulky to haul
To compress in <C5 means you have to build an entire rorqual in the hole
It's still too bulky to haul out

To be honest, if the CSM member didn't know that WH space was 0.0, why the **** are they qualified to suggest removing it? They obviously don't know how WH space works (they probably imagine it as a high-sec where sleepers replace CONCORD), so instead of screaming OMG NERF, listen to the WH guys and get an opinion after.

TLDR: Mining in WHs is no real money and a ***** to do. 0.0 CSMs didn't know WHs were 0.0 so have no information to base their opinion that mining needs nerfing.

Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari
Deep Space Nomads Corp
Posted - 2011.07.14 11:15:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Discrodia
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
Wormholes are perfect as it is now. No need to nerf or buff them. It's null that needs a nerf, more precisely passive income of the null. Moon goo needs to be nerfed.

You forgot the botter income that is perfectly safe and makes boatloads of money.


There's no game mechanic that would stop bots without screwing honest players.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.07.14 11:31:00 - [71]
 

The complete lack of any CCP response is not exactly reassuring.

The absolute failure of any null-bunnies being able to make any form of argument in favor of removing ABC from -1.0 space (wormhole space, for those null carebears that don't know that) that even remotely makes sense or reflects on reality speaks volumes as well.

C'mon CCP... someone share a thought or two with us on this.

Stosh Redwood
Posted - 2011.07.14 11:35:00 - [72]
 

I agree with this. Null needs more people. If there are no ABC ores in nothing but null that will change prices and bring people to null sec.

Good job CCP

Sealiah
Minmatar
Coffee Lovers Brewing Club
Care Factor
Posted - 2011.07.14 11:42:00 - [73]
 

If anyone ever thought that CSM represents all of players, he must have been a real no-lifer or idealist.

Like with polititians, if you think they represent the entire society, you really were born in the wrong universe :P A polititian represents the people, who voted for him. The same goes for the CSM. This means, that they represent the powerblocks that chose them.

There isn't any WH or high-sec powerblock uniting enough people to actually chose a member of the CSM. Even if they have enough people, they don't have the kind of military rules forcing members to vote as the CEO says.

I'd actually love to candidate just as a general representative but it's practically impossible to win without a big powerblock supporting you.

No to mention that 0.0 dwellers usually have 2-5 accounts, so for every single one you convince to your point of view, you can get several votes, while high sec dwellers usually have 1-2 accounts, rarely more.

In other words - it's a democcracy as we all love it - in no way working in the interest of the most needing/best general interest - it is working in the interest of the people who voted for the exact rep - so usually a single powerblock.



UNLESS, like this time, the CSM get totally stoned for our money and then agree to anything they are asked to agree to :D AGAIN, just like real polititians! :D

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.07.14 11:42:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Stosh Redwood
I agree with this. Null needs more people. If there are no ABC ores in nothing but null that will change prices and bring people to null sec.

Good job CCP


Please, close your mouth. You're leaking stupid on the carpet.

Removing ABC from wormholes will do nothing to increase the population in Null. Nothing at all. People aren't in wormholes specifically for the ABC, they're in there for the challenge of living somewhere more dangerous than null where the risk/reward factor is much more interesting. ABC ores provide us with necessary resources to maintain our own holes, very rarely are they exported outide the holes. Hell, low end holes already suffer from a basic ore-nerf... no mercoxit. There's also no access to ice fuels at this time in any class of holes.

Null life is already too soft. No sense punishing people out for a real challenge in order to buff the null-bots.

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2011.07.14 11:46:00 - [75]
 

The CSM has no clue about wormholes, yet they claim to know everything about wormholes.

Most of the CSM didn't even know that wormholes are 0.0 and that you can mine ABC in there. But only moments later they blame wormhole miners being the reason for producing too much high end ores.

There is a better post about it here.

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.14 14:08:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Omara Otawan
Originally by: Dolm De'Mourne

Sure, cause we all go for the few million isk in minerals instead of the hundreds of millions/billions in sleeper bits. Minerals aren't worth mining except for keeping from having to exit the WH for ammo for the most part. They are practically worthless compared to everything else in there. The CSM's choice to focus on such a non-issue is disappointing.


This pretty much. How one could even get the idea that they are actually being exported is beyond me, you'll have to be pretty much completely out of touch with the game.

Come to think of CCP is usually being accused of that... Rolling Eyes


I export hundreds of millions worth of minerals every time I mine, so it would effect my bottom line very much if they took out the ABC. and of course the zydrine and megacyte I do use inside the hole would then have to be imported, doubly crippling the operation.

I hated the CSM's before but now they are KOS. Too bad only 2 of them even have the balls to go into Wspace.

Merasa Tro
Posted - 2011.07.14 14:37:00 - [77]
 

I dont WH.. And I dont Null... Which am sure means I'll get replies of 'you know nothing' Very Happy

However, isnt 'the point' that people are supposed to trade? IIRC different low end mins populate in different regions meaning you have to move them around to get a reasonable distribution. T2 stuff requires moon mins, means you have to move them around. Null already say they dont have enough veld (demands for super veld), means you have to move minerals around. PI planets only produce some types of resources, means you have to move them around to combine them.

Its called trade.

So, remove ABC ores from WH. Fine. Remove low end ores from Null.

Empire dwellers need to trade to get hi-end ores from null dwellers.
Null folks need to trade to get low end ores from empire.

Even further.. move the high end ores around, so each region has its own 'best' ore that then gets traded around the other regions.

Even even further... Mining, planets, moons, deadspace, officers, everything becomes dynamic. Have a backround radiation of minimal supply of things so that people can always do 'something'. But the good stuff spawns/despawns dynamically. The more a system is used, the further back it drops. The strategic improvements boost that 'background state' a bit. But good stuff spawn less often.

So Sov people can 'cope' on the background in small numbers, but for big wins, once theyve drained a system they MUST move on to grow. Smaller group then moves in while the system recovers.

Thinking in a similar system to exploration, the more a system is used the less often exploration sites spawn.

Ricardo Gonzalo Montalban
Posted - 2011.07.14 15:01:00 - [78]
 

Time to shoot the Monument in Jita again?

J Kunjeh
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.14 15:12:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Lord Hedge
Edited by: Lord Hedge on 14/07/2011 01:28:20
It seems very clear that the powers to be want to cut access to high end ores for their own purposes. I see nothing wrong with the little guys getting cheese for the risk. But high end ores behind a wall of alliances and a clutter of gate camps is unacceptable. I like W-space because it give me a chance to explore the deep aspects of eveonline without running into zerg fleets and people that want a killmail every second. This game has so many deep aspects to explore and something like this will only close doors and possibilities to smaller players and corps.


I have no personal experience with WH's or 0.0, but I do follow all things Eve closely. Just reading about this issue in various places, I can only agree with the foundation of the post above. But we should all remember, nothing has changed yet, nor is there a guarantee that it will. Make your voices heard in constructive and peaceful way and maybe your opinion will be better received.

Mnengli Noiliffe
Posted - 2011.07.14 15:35:00 - [80]
 

Edited by: Mnengli Noiliffe on 14/07/2011 15:37:00
I think this is a good idea, it should be hard to "live" in the WH since it is not supposed for long term living.

low grade WH is supposed to be a fast and easy way for casual player to jump in and shoot some sleeper rats with some risk of pvp.

now its like 0.0 where a bunch of jerks claim they own the system and camp/farm it 24/7.

if they remove ore from low quality WHs then the jerks would move to higher quality or maybe to 0.0 where they belong.

so there will be more space for the solo guy which is for the best.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.07.14 15:37:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Mnengli Noiliffe
I think this is a good idea, it should be hard to "live" in the WH since it is not supposed for long term living.

WH is supposed to be a fast and easy way for casual player to jump in and shoot some sleeper rats with some risk of pvp.

now its like 0.0 where a bunch of jerks claim they own the system and camp/farm it 24/7.

if they remove ore from low quality WHs then the jerks would move to higher quality or maybe to 0.0 where they belong.

so there will be more space for the solo guy which is for the best.


Why is it the ones without avatars say the stupidest things?

Mnengli Noiliffe
Posted - 2011.07.14 15:38:00 - [82]
 

Edited by: Mnengli Noiliffe on 14/07/2011 15:39:27
because its the disposable forum posting alt scheduled for deletion for several months, you silly.

also, your amount of arguments (zero) shows your post as even stupidER, so again you fail since apparently you DO have an avatar...

Khan Auduin
Posted - 2011.07.14 15:49:00 - [83]
 

Who the **** csm guys think you are ? Gtfo with this idea and **** you CSM ****'s....


Leave wh's alone.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.07.14 15:58:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Mnengli Noiliffe
Edited by: Mnengli Noiliffe on 14/07/2011 15:39:27
because its the disposable forum posting alt scheduled for deletion for several months, you silly.

also, your amount of arguments (zero) shows your post as even stupidER, so again you fail since apparently you DO have an avatar...


I've spelled out my arguments in this and the other thread. Try reading.

VaMei
Posted - 2011.07.14 16:06:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Jimmy Duce
I'm only semi kidding, WH space is 0.0 and should have ABCsss anybody who thinks otherwise is a *snip* Spitfire and stupid.


WH space is all 0.0, but not all of it should have the rewards of -1.0 systems.
By the same token, mid level indy sov upgrades shouldn't have the rewards of -1.0 systems.

ABCM was rare, valuable, and something wars were fought over. Thanks to the 'improvements' made to the game, it's not that way anymore.

The most lucrative rewards must be rare and difficult to get/hold, or they cease to have value.

Ruffio Sepico
Minmatar
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
Posted - 2011.07.14 16:07:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: Mnengli Noiliffe
Edited by: Mnengli Noiliffe on 14/07/2011 15:37:00
I think this is a good idea, it should be hard to "live" in the WH since it is not supposed for long term living.

low grade WH is supposed to be a fast and easy way for casual player to jump in and shoot some sleeper rats with some risk of pvp.

now its like 0.0 where a bunch of jerks claim they own the system and camp/farm it 24/7.

if they remove ore from low quality WHs then the jerks would move to higher quality or maybe to 0.0 where they belong.

so there will be more space for the solo guy which is for the best.



You do know that a wh system have limited amount of anomalies and sites right? And that the respawn rate is very slow. So camping/farming the same system 24/7 as you so nice put it, would make you very poor in the end.

VaMei
Posted - 2011.07.14 16:13:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Ruffio Sepico
You do know that a wh system have limited amount of anomalies and sites right? And that the respawn rate is very slow. So camping/farming the same system 24/7 as you so nice put it, would make you very poor in the end.


You do know that WHs have links to other WHs right? And that WH corps farm the random connected systems before collapsing the hole and getting another one.

Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari
Deep Space Nomads Corp
Posted - 2011.07.14 16:20:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Mnengli Noiliffe
Edited by: Mnengli Noiliffe on 14/07/2011 15:37:00
I think this is a good idea, it should be hard to "live" in the WH since it is not supposed for long term living.

low grade WH is supposed to be a fast and easy way for casual player to jump in and shoot some sleeper rats with some risk of pvp.

now its like 0.0 where a bunch of jerks claim they own the system and camp/farm it 24/7.

if they remove ore from low quality WHs then the jerks would move to higher quality or maybe to 0.0 where they belong.

so there will be more space for the solo guy which is for the best.


You do realize that a solo guy can claim a wh, unless some great force really hates you no one will bother to remove you and your pos.

Forgotten Heathen
Heretical Innovations
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.07.14 16:28:00 - [89]
 

Wow, I don't even know where to start on this.

This sums it all up for me.

Tau said:
Quote:
Nerfing C1-C4 will simply push everyone into C5. It won't solve anything other than create a lot more empty systems and offline POSes.


As many people have already said, most of the minerals mined inside wormholes stay inside wormholes. Products come out. Or ships stay in.

I would love to see hard facts on how large a percent of minerals actually come out of wormholes and make it to the market. Until then, how can anyone advocate something that obviously hasn't been an issue? Mineral prices haven't soared or crashed recently, they've had a slow upward slope since alot of macroers got banned. If huge amounts of minerals were being dumped from wormholes, basic economics would tell us that the market was being diluted from a source, and then we could point some fingers.

Since this, in fact, isn't happening, it sure looks like people *read CSMs* are trying to get their personal areas and income streams buffed. Why does 0.0 need more buffing when it already contains so many upgrades and population draws?

Wormhole space allows smaller groups of players to take part in what the biggest groups of players get to play in day in and day out, but at a cost: Considerable and Never Ending Risk. Everyday it is possible for a hole to open to a huge alliance wormhole and for them to decide to crack your POS to get at your hard earned Evestuff.

And that risk doesn't end there. Anyone can come in. As has been previously pointed out repeatadly, a K162 can open at any time and a really good bomber pilot can locate your mining gang and poof goes a mining barge. You're out killing sleepers and anyone could be watching you, including a huge fleet of T3 ships no one can survive.

Case in point, I have three incoming wormholes on top of my two statics. I have no intel channels, no blue corps, nobody else in here to deal with them but me because my corpies are at work. Isn't that enough risk to be able to mine some freaking ABC ores???


Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.07.14 16:31:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: VaMei
Originally by: Ruffio Sepico
You do know that a wh system have limited amount of anomalies and sites right? And that the respawn rate is very slow. So camping/farming the same system 24/7 as you so nice put it, would make you very poor in the end.


You do know that WHs have links to other WHs right? And that WH corps farm the random connected systems before collapsing the hole and getting another one.



Are you actually thinking that's a good method of mining? Raiding a static in an unarmed ship... a static which likely has residents that will "object" to your presence through a hole that has mass limits to raid a site you have to scan down, wait for and kill the rats, then try to gather what resources you can while watching dscan and bumping up against a mass limit, load limit etc.

You're bumper sticker argument sounds good, but it betrays a lack of basic understanding on reality.

And then come the joys of trying to close a hole with you on the correct side, when the actual mass limit of the hole varies making exact calculations impossible...


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