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blankseplocked Nerfing wormholes again??? Really CCP?
 
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Gidgets
Posted - 2011.07.13 23:57:00 - [31]
 

Leave W-space alone. It's hard enough living there as it is.

Astrid Raholan
Posted - 2011.07.14 00:06:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Gidgets
Leave W-space alone. It's hard enough living there as it is.


If you're living in 'hard' wormhole space (ie: Class 5 or 6) you won't notice any nerfs, it's only the lowest classes that are being looked at for the chop.

As for the people saying that there are no ABC minerals coming from wormhole space, if that is true then it won't matter if they're removed then!


Discrodia
Gallente
Symbiosis International
Moose Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.14 00:07:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Astrid Raholan
Originally by: Gidgets
Leave W-space alone. It's hard enough living there as it is.


If you're living in 'hard' wormhole space (ie: Class 5 or 6) you won't notice any nerfs, it's only the lowest classes that are being looked at for the chop.

As for the people saying that there are no ABC minerals coming from wormhole space, if that is true then it won't matter if they're removed then!



The desire is not to have the options curtailed by those asshats who got alliances to elect them, rather than any immediate desire to go mine ABC in WH space.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.07.14 00:11:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Astrid Raholan
Originally by: Gidgets
Leave W-space alone. It's hard enough living there as it is.


If you're living in 'hard' wormhole space (ie: Class 5 or 6) you won't notice any nerfs, it's only the lowest classes that are being looked at for the chop.

As for the people saying that there are no ABC minerals coming from wormhole space, if that is true then it won't matter if they're removed then!




Now that you'd displayed an incredible ability to portray stupidity at it's finest, let's correct you. There is no problem with ABC ore in wormholes. The majority of is it consumed in hole, thus preventing us from having to rely on null bots for our minerals. Maybe this cuts into 1/1000 of their profits, but too frakking bad.

It would make a lot more sense to scale ABC ores in null so that they only show up as you get closer to -1.0. At least... this is about as stupid as taking ABC's out of pure -1.0 space.

Astrid Raholan
Posted - 2011.07.14 00:12:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Discrodia

The desire is not to have the options curtailed by those asshats who got alliances to elect them, rather than any immediate desire to go mine ABC in WH space.


You mean the option to go into a class 1 wormhole with a highsec exit and mine ABC minerals?

Yeah, I can see the risk v reward right there.

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2011.07.14 00:12:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Astrid Raholan

As for the people saying that there are no ABC minerals coming from wormhole space, if that is true then it won't matter if they're removed then!



It isnt about ores coming from w-space, it is about ore going in there.

If anything, resources should be more readily in w-space than anywhere else given it is much more of a hassle to import any significant quantity.

Alara IonStorm
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.14 00:16:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Alara IonStorm on 14/07/2011 00:22:58
Originally by: Astrid Raholan
You mean the option to go into a more oftenly traveled through class 1 wormhole with a highsec entrance any part time PVP'er can enter and mine ABC minerals with no Local and no being 50 systems into safe NAP space that you have to scan down to get too, haul out with mass limits and are worth less then Lvl 4 Mission Blitzing?

Yeah, I can see the risk v reward right there.

Fixed.

Discrodia
Gallente
Symbiosis International
Moose Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.14 00:17:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Alara IonStorm
Originally by: Astrid Raholan
You mean the option to go into a more oftenly traveled through class 1 wormhole with a highsec entrance any part time PVP can enter and mine ABC minerals with no Local, no being 50 systems into safe NAP space that you have to scan down and are worth less then Lvl 4 Mission Blitzing?

Yeah, I can see the risk v reward right there.

Fixed.


More or less, this.

Astrid Raholan
Posted - 2011.07.14 00:18:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Ingvar Angst

Now that you'd displayed an incredible ability to portray stupidity at it's finest, let's correct you. There is no problem with ABC ore in wormholes. The majority of is it consumed in hole, thus preventing us from having to rely on null bots for our minerals. Maybe this cuts into 1/1000 of their profits, but too frakking bad.

It would make a lot more sense to scale ABC ores in null so that they only show up as you get closer to -1.0. At least... this is about as stupid as taking ABC's out of pure -1.0 space.


I'm sure most of it is consumed in hole, after all - you want to compress those minerals into guns before they are shipped off to high sec.

Dolm De'Mourne
Posted - 2011.07.14 00:30:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Astrid Raholan
Originally by: Ingvar Angst

Now that you'd displayed an incredible ability to portray stupidity at it's finest, let's correct you. There is no problem with ABC ore in wormholes. The majority of is it consumed in hole, thus preventing us from having to rely on null bots for our minerals. Maybe this cuts into 1/1000 of their profits, but too frakking bad.

It would make a lot more sense to scale ABC ores in null so that they only show up as you get closer to -1.0. At least... this is about as stupid as taking ABC's out of pure -1.0 space.


I'm sure most of it is consumed in hole, after all - you want to compress those minerals into guns before they are shipped off to high sec.


Sure, cause we all go for the few million isk in minerals instead of the hundreds of millions/billions in sleeper bits. Minerals aren't worth mining except for keeping from having to exit the WH for ammo for the most part. They are practically worthless compared to everything else in there. The CSM's choice to focus on such a non-issue is disappointing.

Crunchmeister
Sick Tight
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2011.07.14 00:42:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Dolm De'Mourne
The CSM's choice to focus on such a non-issue is disappointing.


Indeed. I'm surprised this was even brought up. I guess the alliance leaders on the CSM are worried that this cuts into their RMT profits. Good work guys.

And mining for export in C1 / C2 WHs from high sec is pretty much worthless and stupid. The mass limits on the holes prevent you from being able to export any significant amount of isk. You may get a couple of Itty V worth of ore out, along with the couple of exhumers you brought in before the hole collapses. The risk is not worth the reward. Sleeper sites are worthwhile. Mining is NOT. C3 are marginally worthwhile exporting ONLY if you live in the WH. And even then, ONLY if you actually use the minerals yourself back in Empire in your own production. Selling is not really worth it.


Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.14 00:46:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Astrid Raholan
Originally by: Gidgets
Leave W-space alone. It's hard enough living there as it is.


If you're living in 'hard' wormhole space (ie: Class 5 or 6) you won't notice any nerfs, it's only the lowest classes that are being looked at for the chop.

As for the people saying that there are no ABC minerals coming from wormhole space, if that is true then it won't matter if they're removed then!




Read what ppl write FFS. The minerals get used IN the wormholes.

Luigi Vercotti
Posted - 2011.07.14 01:02:00 - [43]
 

Love the crap here typed by people who have never lived in a wh pocket.

You want people to eliminate ABC ore?
Super. Just increase the available veldspar and scordite by a factor of 100.

Several people have stated the facts: More minerals are imported into wh's by a wide margin than minerals exported for resale.

Ask any industrialist in a wh pocket what they are always crying for: Trit and Pyerite.

And given the 25% hit wh corps take on any refining done in a wh (yeah, that's right, intensive refining array caps out at 75% efficiency), plus the fact that it takes 3 hours to refine 200,000 cu metres of ore/refinery, and a large POS can only support one refinery, it is insane for people to think that large quantities of high end minerals are being exported out wh's.

Wangston Hughes
Posted - 2011.07.14 01:13:00 - [44]
 

Why are all of your posts so terrible and stupid?

Lord Hedge
Posted - 2011.07.14 01:18:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Lord Hedge on 14/07/2011 01:28:20
Well being that our corp lives in W-space I can tell you that we export almost no ABC ore's unless we are desperate for ISK. More over we only mine the ores for our own manufacturing projects. Also our static exit is to null so it's hard for us to import or export anything. And on top all this. Grav sites or (Asteroid fields) are rare spawns. I simply don't understand why this is even being talked about.

Also sleepers are only so valuable due to the market and the flow of tech 3 modules and ships. That's what wormhole space is all about tech 3 gear. You can't moon mine in W-space so any Tech 2 stuff you want will have to be imported. W-space has it's own dynamic and I think it works good how it is....

It seems very clear that the powers to be want to cut access to high end ores for their own purposes. I see nothing wrong with the little guys getting cheese for the risk. But high end ores behind a wall of alliances and a clutter of gate camps is unacceptable. I like W-space because it give me a chance to explore the deep aspects of eveonline without running into zerg fleets and people that want a killmail every second. This game has so many deep aspects to explore and something like this will only close doors and possibilities to smaller players and corps.

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2011.07.14 01:20:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Dolm De'Mourne

Sure, cause we all go for the few million isk in minerals instead of the hundreds of millions/billions in sleeper bits. Minerals aren't worth mining except for keeping from having to exit the WH for ammo for the most part. They are practically worthless compared to everything else in there. The CSM's choice to focus on such a non-issue is disappointing.


This pretty much. How one could even get the idea that they are actually being exported is beyond me, you'll have to be pretty much completely out of touch with the game.

Come to think of CCP is usually being accused of that... Rolling Eyes

Pure Tabasco
Posted - 2011.07.14 01:20:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Wangston Hughes
Why are all of your posts so terrible and stupid?

Well IDK, look yours!

@CCP: Fix Mining, Kill bots! Leave WH alone.

Kumq uat
Posted - 2011.07.14 01:31:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Demon Azrakel
Not sure how many people mine in w-space, but, given how rarely we come across them, I think it is rather few. If you are searching for a location to blame an excess of high-end minerals on, check the upper-right-hand corner of the map.


Came across two Retrievers and a hauler in W space. One scorch bomb later there were three pods.

Working as intended.

Asuri Kinnes
Caldari
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2011.07.14 01:47:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Mistle Riannon
Originally by: Jonathan Ferguson
(..)the subject of removing "ABC" minerals from wormholes was raised by nullsec-resident CSMs, who were surprised to learn that WH space was nullsec and that ABC minerals were available in them.

Doh. I'm sure that entire WH space is perfectly secure, and probably crawling with CONCORD ships all over the place.
/facepalm

Not only that, WH space has huge blue napfests everywhere with Instant intell local channels, Intell channels and anytime you jump into a wh - you have to shoo the bot-flies away, because, you see, it's so safe, all the bots moved from 0.0 to WH's....

Embarassed

My bad.... they haven't left yet...Embarassed

Jonathan Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.14 04:59:00 - [50]
 

Jayne is frantic: "Thank god we have Trebor and Two Step there."

Et tu, Step?

CSM Two Face: "Even those of us who do know about w-space agreed that there should be a nerf to mining in low end wormholes. Someone else complained that a C2 couldn't support a group of 10 without ABCs, which doesn't sound wrong at all to me. Lower class wormholes should not have high end ore. One doesn't really risk much, and the reward should match that risk."

Linkage

Jaigar
Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe
Transmission Lost
Posted - 2011.07.14 05:11:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Mrs Pwnage
Edited by: Mrs Pwnage on 13/07/2011 22:25:06
Wormholes are already losing their appeal; if it keeps up they will be just like nullsec, no one but POS tenders in 90% of it.

I blame adding probes to overview so it is easier to see them in space where you are not supposed to know someone is there. It broke the dynamics, and the thrill that you could get jumped at any moment to where it is almost completely safe. Just spam the scan button and run away the second you see probes.

Nullsec alliances need to start using them more too, instead of just freaking out and collapsing the hole once it spawns in fear someone will bring some GF's.


Sorry to break this to you, but probe have been addable to overview ever since Wormholes came out; you just had to manually modify your overview xml and add the probe codes. There were other things you used to be able to add to your overview, but they removed those as well.

But removing ABC ore? Lol hillarious. 3 Hulks can mine out all the ABC ore in less than 2 hours in a site, and you get maybe 1 grav site in a system every week or so. Also, if you are mining in a hulk instead of a coveter in a WH, yer doing it wrong.

Also theres more resources used to mine in WHs. In Nullsec you don't need dedicated scouts, and you don't have to spam d-scan. You just watch local. So why should null-sec which is easier to watch be easier to mine in?


Jada Maroo
Posted - 2011.07.14 05:12:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Jada Maroo on 14/07/2011 05:13:25
Originally by: Jonathan Ferguson
Jayne is frantic: "Thank god we have Trebor and Two Step there."

Et tu, Step?

CSM Two Face: "Even those of us who do know about w-space agreed that there should be a nerf to mining in low end wormholes. Someone else complained that a C2 couldn't support a group of 10 without ABCs, which doesn't sound wrong at all to me. Lower class wormholes should not have high end ore. One doesn't really risk much, and the reward should match that risk."

Linkage


Just shows me these dimwitted tards are totally clueless about wormholes. C2s are every bit as vulnerable to takeover as a C3 is. And if you have a good wormhole, 10 people isn't enough to properly defend it.

Jaigar
Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe
Transmission Lost
Posted - 2011.07.14 05:13:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Astrid Raholan
Originally by: Discrodia

The desire is not to have the options curtailed by those asshats who got alliances to elect them, rather than any immediate desire to go mine ABC in WH space.


You mean the option to go into a class 1 wormhole with a highsec exit and mine ABC minerals?

Yeah, I can see the risk v reward right there.


C1 holes have a 20,000,000 mass limit, meaning you can't bring anything larger than a retreiver in. So if you want o use a coveter or a hulk, you are gonna have to build it.

daddys helper
Posted - 2011.07.14 05:22:00 - [54]
 

Edited by: daddys helper on 14/07/2011 05:21:54
treat the WH as the region it's static connects to

if a hole has a static to highsec nothing better than veldspar
a lowsec static then nothing over whatever low has to offer
null static gets ABC

people need to stop treating W-space as a single region of space and accept that not all WH's are created equal.
you can have 2 WH of the same class that are wildly different in terms of general difficulty.

one thing that could be done is getting rid of the lame C1 sleepers that guard gas and ore regardless of the actual class of the hole. If you are in a c3-c4 you shouldn't be able to solo a sleeper site in a BC, even if its only rocks

Actually I really cant see the value of that anyhow unless you are soloing the hole because you have nothing better to do and your mates are not around to go run mag and radar sites with you. Its far far far more isk per hour to run the sleeper sites than mining ABC, hell gas has a better return for time invested than ore does

Kiran
Minmatar
Knights of Azrael
Anti-Social Outcast
Posted - 2011.07.14 05:27:00 - [55]
 

The CSM making game changing mechanics like this really need to sit down and look at the logistics needed to do such opperations.

How can they comment on something they had no idea about? This smacks of them baulking at the fact that their bots are now in danger of loosing isk because of this.

If they remove ABC ores from wormholes then they should remove local from null sec and the belts. Make everything in null sec where you have to scan it down. That should balance some of it out, then allow corps/alliances to claim sov in wormholes and let them build up the system like they can do in null sec.

Jaigar
Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe
Transmission Lost
Posted - 2011.07.14 05:29:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Asuri Kinnes
Originally by: Mistle Riannon
Originally by: Jonathan Ferguson
(..)the subject of removing "ABC" minerals from wormholes was raised by nullsec-resident CSMs, who were surprised to learn that WH space was nullsec and that ABC minerals were available in them.

Doh. I'm sure that entire WH space is perfectly secure, and probably crawling with CONCORD ships all over the place.
/facepalm

Not only that, WH space has huge blue napfests everywhere with Instant intell local channels, Intell channels and anytime you jump into a wh - you have to shoo the bot-flies away, because, you see, it's so safe, all the bots moved from 0.0 to WH's....

Embarassed

My bad.... they haven't left yet...Embarassed



MY ADHOC BROS! Wooo, one of the few respectable wormhole PvP corps. Good fun running into you guys.

But yeah, the biggest disappointment about this is how disconnected CSM is with wormholes. There was someone who finished like 9th place in votes from AHARM for CSM, and he would have been the first WH representative. But us WH dwellers are few and most of us seperate ourselves from the politics of EVE, so how would it ever be possible for us to get representation?


Sarina Berghil
Minmatar
New Zion Judge Advocate
Yulai Federation
Posted - 2011.07.14 05:32:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: Sarina Berghil on 14/07/2011 05:34:32
Reading the minutes makes me speechless.

The suggestion seems to have been made by people who never fired a mining laser in a wormhole.

In wormholes ABC ore is mined by people who either:

1. Are bored out of their mind.
2. Only have skills for mining.
3. Have a Chribba'istic mentality that would make them mad if they can't mine for a day.


The reasons for this is that:

1. It's one of the lowest pay activities in wormholes, excluding some of the low end gases.
2. It is the most risky endeavour possible due to the lack of local, and the fact that cloaked ships are so commonplace.
3. The logistics to market the ore is horrendous.


Add this to the fact that the wormhole population is the smallest in all of EvE. How someone can say with a straight face that mining ABC in W-space have even the slightest impact on the market is beyond me. My only guess is that they never ever saw a W-system.


Wormhole mining do have some advantages in a non-profit way. It's something to do when nothing else is going on. It provides PvP targets. It makes sense from a lore perspective that dangerous unknown space has trace amounts of high end ore, and adds a bit of flavour.

If you want to fix Megacyte and Zydrine prices, maybe look at the changes Dominion brought, which caused K-space null-sec dwellers to mine like crazy to level up their industrial index. Hell mission runners probably bring in a lot more high-end minerals than wormholes do.


*The single most important role for a mining barge in w-space, is to collapse a wormhole*

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.07.14 05:35:00 - [58]
 

FYI: you cannot get a Hulk into a C1, unless it stays there forever.

Nerfing C1-C4 will simply push everyone into C5. It won't solve anything other than create a lot more empty systems and offline POSes.

CowQueen MMXII
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.14 06:39:00 - [59]
 

I'm wondering why nobody mentioned this before:
mining doesn't necessarily get more dangerous with increasing WH class. Quite the contrary might be true. Have a static hi- or low-sec connection and you will have much more traffic than with having a static c4 for example. And of of course: more traffic means more risk.



Ciar Meara
Amarr
Virtus Vindice
Posted - 2011.07.14 06:57:00 - [60]
 

Daytripping miners?

Sure if your daytrip includes the afghan mountains where guys can shoot you in the back just for being there, if in fact you manage to get out with your cargo and not run away screaming from the locals or some random merc who are looking to loot (and ravage/steal?)everything, including your body

I thought EvE was all about rewarding good organised, wel thought out and brave groups. Cause a lone miner with a bestower isn't going to haul ore out WH anytime soon.

It's not 0.0 but is doesn't have to be, it has it own dangers and if nothing else it gives a bit of competition to 0.0 miners. And Competition is what EvE is about, not whining, I thought the mittani and all those 0.0 geeks where against whiny comments?

Prices of ore are more influenced by botters, and if they are influenced by "daytrippers", good, its a valid game mechanic that doesn't need changing cause some whiny 0.0 CSM's.



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