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De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.07.13 16:51:00 - [91]
 

Originally by: Eyup Mi'duck
Originally by: Captain's Courageous
Edited by: Captain''s Courageous on 13/07/2011 03:37:20
Recently, the CSM has, in a publicized article, implied that the gamers who quit in protest over the recent micro-transactions controversy were as irrelevant as the Tea Party. First, that's insulting and degrading to gamers who have spent years paying for the privilege of playing EVE, and second, the implication is wrong. Over 1/4th of Americans identify themselves with the Tea Party, and the Tea Party have currently usurped the issue positions of the GOP. I believe that this level of unprofessionalism and ignorance speaks volumes about the integrity of the CSM, and must therefore request that a motion for a vote of no confidence be filed.

Signed,

Matthew L.

Original quote: "They are always going to be there. It is not relevant on any level, in any democratic process what the lunatic fringe thinks. Just look at, in America, the Tea Party, the John Birch Society, or what have you. Any of these isolated movements, on the fringes, they are very loud, but they don’t actually impact sh*t. So, that’s pretty much my view of that.”

- http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/14/feature/5382/page/2

Edit: I am not supporting or defending the Tea Party. I am objecting to the CSM's statement of comparison.


4/4ths of the non-American player base hasn't got a clue what you are on about? Rolling Eyes


Neither do 2/4's of the American player-base. And the rest of us just don't care.
Let's face it, American politics is no longer about who can do the best job. It's about who will do the least damage.

Hmm. I wonder if Apathetic Cynacism can be considered a political position.

Phugoid
Posted - 2011.07.13 16:52:00 - [92]
 

Hey Captain's Courageous....

About a week or so I had a similar thread, and you should have seen all the left wing whackos comeout and spill their hatred.
All I did was complain bout CSM Mattini's (or whatever his name is) exact statement, and how politics should NOT be brought up in regards to the recent events.

But, guess what? My thread was locked by CCP after about 40 posts or so because of the whackos making my point into a politcal point, which it was not.

Good Luck...dont be surprised if your post get blocked, and it will be responded by a bunch of haters out there. (Romney 2012)

1Of9
Gallente
The Circle
White Noise.
Posted - 2011.07.13 17:01:00 - [93]
 

Originally by: dexington
Originally by: jackaloped
If you quit your day job so you can play eve full time Eve becomes your life. Such a person could never represent players who are growing tired of the game's direction and thinking about leaving it. People who do not have lives outside of internet spaceships will never really represent most players.


The CSM only represent the players who by chance share their or their alliances views, they don't in anyway represent the eve player base in general. Anyone who don't share the views of the big alliances have little to no chance of voicing their opinion through the CSM.

The views of the CMS members are to homogenous to represent the player base, it's basically a one party democracy.


true. it's the only reason goons get into the csm anyway.
no one else votes on those ***gots

Mintala Arana
Amarr
Posted - 2011.07.13 17:03:00 - [94]
 

Originally by: Cashcow Golden Goose
Originally by: Khamelean
Yes, only a small portion of the total eve population voted in the CSM elections. But the rest still voiced there opinion, which was "I don't care enough to vote". Thus giving up their chance to voice their opinions later. Them's the breaks.


Zinfandel, why are non voters allowed to post on the forums?
Could it be because you are wrong?
Even if that is indeed a CCP Zinfandel alt (which I kind of doubt), the basic statement is reasonable to me. You're given an opportunity to vote. If you don't vote, that is the same as saying "I don't care about the issues". If you say "I don't care about the issues" then you have no basis for complaint about your elected representatives if the outcome on some (or all) issues isn't to your liking.

And if you do care, perhaps next time you should vote.

1Of9
Gallente
The Circle
White Noise.
Posted - 2011.07.13 17:04:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: Phugoid
Hey Captain's Courageous....

About a week or so I had a similar thread, and you should have seen all the left wing whackos comeout and spill their hatred.
All I did was complain bout CSM Mattini's (or whatever his name is) exact statement, and how politics should NOT be brought up in regards to the recent events.

But, guess what? My thread was locked by CCP after about 40 posts or so because of the whackos making my point into a politcal point, which it was not.

Good Luck...dont be surprised if your post get blocked, and it will be responded by a bunch of haters out there. (Romney 2012)


it's not ccp blocking, it's goons working inside ccp.

if topic does not favor gooncrap then lock/delete

Ineka
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2011.07.13 17:12:00 - [96]
 

If you want to vote no confidence to the actual CSM you'll be able to, at the next elections party. This is how it works.

People have voted, they are doing their job and you don't have to love it/them or hate it/them with lol threads like this one.

Get close to their opponents and start right now working on your strategics and campaign to elect your favourite "fellah's" next year.

Short version: stop wasting your time and pollute the forum with useless blah blah blah

You can also grow up but it's not mandatory.


Daedalus II
Helios Research
Posted - 2011.07.13 17:15:00 - [97]
 

Edited by: Daedalus II on 13/07/2011 17:18:13
Originally by: dexington

The community clearly voiced more opinions against micro transactions then for, still the CSM chairman publicly says that the only part of the community that don't like micro transactions are loud lunatics.

Well if you call 5000 loud lunatics "the community" then yes, you're right. I however rather see the remaining 400 000 as the community.

Anyway in relation to the original post, I guess there could be a vulnerability in the current system:

Let's speculate that most of the high sec people vote on a single person. Then say that the nullsec alliances all vote for their respective candidates.

Result; the high sec representative easily gets in with five times as much votes as anyone else. The nullsec representatives get in as well, but with fewer votes. However the high sec representative doesn't have five times as much power. And all of a sudden there's a lot more nullsec representatives than high sec representatives on the CSM despite the high sec population being a lot larger in reality. The same could happen if the high sec people for example voted evenly amongst a lot of high-sec candidates, in such a way that none reached the required level to be elected compared to the nullsec voters more concentrated votes.

Is this likely to happen? I don't know, maybe?
Does it really matter anyway? I don't know, maybe?

If this was a problem however a "party system" could be added to solve the problem. One high sec party, one low sec party, one nullsec party and one independent party. Each party gets CSM chairs relative to total votes for all party members. And from inside the party representatives are chosen in descending order based on how many votes they individually got.
Sounds fair, no?

Cydori
Posted - 2011.07.13 17:15:00 - [98]
 

Edited by: Cydori on 13/07/2011 17:17:47
Whatever faith I had in the CSM evaporated like a fart in the wind after observing its performance during this latest incident. I used to have a modicum of respect for The Mittani, even though I've disagreed with him on various issues in the past. But his obnoxious personality and self-important grandstanding makes it increasingly difficult to support anything he does, regardless of the relative merits of his arguments. And his arguments have been getting worse and worse over time. The best thing to do with people like that is ignore them, as that's the one thing they can't abide.

As for the rest of the CSM members, they've repeatedly demonstrated they're more interested in acting as a PR meatshield for CCP than aggressively pushing issues which are important to the players. Their motto seems to be "No we can't!" The worst part is that some of them have actually convinced themselves they're anything more than sycophants.

The CSM is a fascinating concept marred by horrid implementation. Not unlike many political entities in the real world. Sad, really.

jackaloped
Posted - 2011.07.13 17:40:00 - [99]
 

Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: jackaloped


Well a very large portion of the player base is less than one year old. In the past year has there been overall "very large growth" in the total number of subscriptions? If the number of total subscriptions are about even then a very large number of subscribers are quitting. Its simple math really.

Do you have some credible information on the amount of growth? The last graph I saw did not look great for eve.


Well not so long ago players were quitting at six months so if anything it shows players are staying for longer. EVE has always had a large new player loss rate.


Actually nothing in this thread indicates players are staying longer. CCP said a very large portion of eve players have been playing under 1 year. It did not say this large proportion has been playing over 6 months. This very large portion could be anywhere from 1 day to 365 days in the game. Take off the rose colored glasses and try to look at the numbers objectively.

Originally by: baltec1

Anyway the numbers can be found in the QEN in evelopia. They show a high in mid 2010 followed by a dip over the summer months followed by a rise in early 2011. Its not much of a rise but there are more space monkies.


The numbers show that since December of 2009 the subscriptions have been fluctuating more than ever, with an average of about 330-350k. The graph shows that there has never in the history of the game been such a lack of growth in overall numbers for a 18 month period of time.

Yet CCP says new players (under 1 year) make up a very large portion of the players. The only way that can be the case in light of the qen reports, is if an equally very large portion of players have been leaving since December of 2009.


dexington
Caldari
Baconoration
Posted - 2011.07.13 17:43:00 - [100]
 

Originally by: Daedalus II
Edited by: Daedalus II on 13/07/2011 17:18:13
Originally by: dexington

The community clearly voiced more opinions against micro transactions then for, still the CSM chairman publicly says that the only part of the community that don't like micro transactions are loud lunatics.

Well if you call 5000 loud lunatics "the community" then yes, you're right. I however rather see the remaining 400 000 as the community.


I didn't see 400000 players saying they support microtransaction, i didn't see anyone protest in support for micro transactions. The CSM would like to say that the silent majority supported CCP/NEX/microtransactions, which is nothing more then bending the truth to serve their own purpose.

Leeroy McJenkins
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.07.13 18:07:00 - [101]
 

I heard that posting on an alt with the incorrect use of apostrophe makes the OP extremely courageous, c/d? Rolling Eyes

Ghoest
Posted - 2011.07.13 18:11:00 - [102]
 

Can I just make a vote of general resigned apathy for all things CCP?

Captain's Courageous
Posted - 2011.07.13 21:52:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: Phugoid
Hey Captain's Courageous....

About a week or so I had a similar thread, and you should have seen all the left wing whackos comeout and spill their hatred.
All I did was complain bout CSM Mattini's (or whatever his name is) exact statement, and how politics should NOT be brought up in regards to the recent events.

But, guess what? My thread was locked by CCP after about 40 posts or so because of the whackos making my point into a politcal point, which it was not.

Good Luck...dont be surprised if your post get blocked, and it will be responded by a bunch of haters out there. (Romney 2012)


Thank you Phugoid for your thoughtful response. It was also not my intention to bring politics into this post, I was merely offended by the immature statements of my elected representative. I must admit, though, that I did not anticipate so many flame posts. Furthermore, I honestly did not anticipate people flaming me for being a conservative. I'm not. While I respect the political views of my fellow citizens, I specifically composed my original post to be politically neutral.

Way to analytically read the whole post, guys.

EI Digin
Caldari
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.07.13 22:00:00 - [104]
 

Since you're all quitting, can I have your stuff?

Cashcow Golden Goose
Posted - 2011.07.13 22:24:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: Mintala Arana
Originally by: Cashcow Golden Goose
Originally by: Khamelean
Yes, only a small portion of the total eve population voted in the CSM elections. But the rest still voiced there opinion, which was "I don't care enough to vote". Thus giving up their chance to voice their opinions later. Them's the breaks.


Zinfandel, why are non voters allowed to post on the forums?
Could it be because you are wrong?
Even if that is indeed a CCP Zinfandel alt (which I kind of doubt), the basic statement is reasonable to me. You're given an opportunity to vote. If you don't vote, that is the same as saying "I don't care about the issues". If you say "I don't care about the issues" then you have no basis for complaint about your elected representatives if the outcome on some (or all) issues isn't to your liking.

And if you do care, perhaps next time you should vote.


You don't need to own a sheep to know what not to put in it. I have no clue why this ridiculous argument keeps coming up again and again. It couldn't be more wrong if it was wired into an electric wronging machine.

Strecs Moliko
Posted - 2011.07.13 22:24:00 - [106]
 

Originally by: EI Digin
Since you're all quitting, can I have your stuff?


This.

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.07.13 22:27:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: Daedalus II
Edited by: Daedalus II on 13/07/2011 17:18:13
Originally by: dexington

The community clearly voiced more opinions against micro transactions then for, still the CSM chairman publicly says that the only part of the community that don't like micro transactions are loud lunatics.

Well if you call 5000 loud lunatics "the community" then yes, you're right. I however rather see the remaining 400 000 as the community.



400,000?

That is far higher than even CCP's own (often doubted) estimates of total players.

Koba Kyogen
The Concordiat
Concordiat Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.13 22:28:00 - [108]
 

/signed

CSM is a joke, has been since its inception.


Tea Party is hardly a fluke, biggest election in history? Yeah.



Koba

Dilaro thagriin
Posted - 2011.07.13 22:33:00 - [109]
 

sorry chap, but i personally agree with the CSM.

those who quit over an internal and THEORETICAL situation, first of all severely 'jumped the gun' in relation to anything concerning the NeX store, and secondly over-reacted hugely given the current state of affairs.

people concerned that the NeX store may, at any point, have things like ships or faction ammo, all seemed to have the same argument. 'it would be really bad if you could just purchase some currency (Aurum) and use that to buy faction ships or ammo'

ok... but wait... if i wanted to, i could RIGHT NOW, go to any number of ETC sellers, and buy say, 4 ETC, convert those 4 ETC into 8 PLEX, and sell the PLEX on the market in game. that would net me somewhere in the region of 2.8 billion isk.

i could then use a portion of that isk to purchase several faction battleships, and fully fit them.

there are only two things in eve that causes the balance that CCP are going out of their way to ensure remains, Skillpoints, and numbers.

neither of those things are ever likely to end up in the NeX store. so... my opinion.. suck it up, and keep on flying. That's what i'll do.

- Dilaro

XIRUSPHERE
Gallente
Deadly Intent.
Posted - 2011.07.13 22:39:00 - [110]
 

The CSM was only ever as strong as the people within and as strong as CCP would allow it to be. Attributing anything to them is folly, they were created as a PR tool and have been quite effective to that end. The only person who ever represented strength in the lot of them was mynxee as she would not take **** from a soul and was not a fanboi with an agenda.

What do you expect people who get elected to do really? You are only ever going to run for it if your mania for the game exceeds that of even the biggest forum ****s here. Throw even the most meager modicum of perceived value or worth to such a position to a player and most likely it's going to rot their brains.

Why would anyone be surprised that when CCP put on the song and dance these VIP alpha nerds drop a load in their pants and comply. The only true issues behind this entire event were not pressed. It's about a lack of communication, willful deception, and a wholesale lack of respect. If you want a middle road with the players you talk to them, you share this creation with them, you share the excitement and they share it with others and grow your game.

As far as CSM taking grievance at their " Sacrifice ". Eat a bag of ****s honestly, you signed up for the ultimate fanboi job deal with what it entails and suck it up. If your lives were so much more important and this is so hard then why are you a PR tool of a game you play without hardly a benefit?


Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.07.13 22:42:00 - [111]
 

Originally by: White Tree
I think some of you don't know what a straw-man argument is...


A straw man argument is, for example, suggesting that by making a comment about not being a member of a particular group meaning you shouldn't have an opinion on that particular group, the person is comparing the CSM to that group.

Now can the CSM please explain how "super veldspar" and removing ABC from wormholes is going to benefit nullsec industry?

The platform that most CSM folks were elected on was "CSM5 doesn't understand the game, only us nullsec people know how the game works". Yet here we are with a CSM who doesn't understand industry, and doesn't understand w-space. It caught you guys by surprise that ships-from-ether might disrupt industry in nullsec. It caught you guys by surprise that ABCs are available in w-space (which is basically nullsec with no sov or local, and has been that way ever since Apocrypha). You looked on in horror as CSM5 was suggesting things which would break your gameplay, and since CSM6 came in we've had the nerfing of anomalies, nerfing of jump bridges and soon the nerfing of supercapitals - not to mention the badly handled NeX store introduction and CQ implementation which CSM was aware of but did nothing to address. Nice track record!

The first comments in the May minutes were along the lines of, "yeah, nullsec's broken, we need to do something," then the issue was dropped! Why? Is it because you folk are a bunch of incompetents who won't even engage the community on the forums (witness the significant lack of CSM activity in Assembly Hall since CSM6 started) or bother to understand this game?

Perish the thought of actually putting some effort in to understanding the various issues impacting people who don't belong to your alliances! You're working on the assumption that it was your alliances who voted for you - do you even know the demographics of the playerbase who voted for you?

And the chairman doesn't even play the game? What a joke!

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.07.13 22:46:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: Dilaro thagriin
sok... but wait... if i wanted to, i could RIGHT NOW, go to any number of ETC sellers, and buy say, 4 ETC, convert those 4 ETC into 8 PLEX, and sell the PLEX on the market in game. that would net me somewhere in the region of 2.8 billion isk.


The two transactions are not the same, even from the purchaser's point of view.

With NeX the ship you buy magically appears in your hangar, wherever you are, regardless of how many reds are camping the undock.

With PLEX, you have to go to the market to buy the ship that someone else has manufactured and put up for sale. If that ship isn't for sale in your station, you can't buy it and fly it.

So even with that minor detail, the two purchasing systems are incredibly different. You're also intentionally ignoring the entire industry behind the production of faction ships which includes mission runners farming LP, T1 manufacturers producing the base product, miners supplying the manufacturers, couriers carrying goods back and forth, and the pirates/hisec wardeccers who prey on that entire chain.

You have as little understanding of the game as the current CSM.

Ineka
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2011.07.13 22:47:00 - [113]
 

The good stuff in your peep's comments is this: if the same CSm is re elected you're just a bunch of freaking useless unbrained nerds

Or:

They have it right and you're just crying nerds unable to do something else.

Keep piercing, it's so (disgusting) awesome !!

Dilaro thagriin
Posted - 2011.07.15 11:56:00 - [114]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn
Originally by: Dilaro thagriin
sok... but wait... if i wanted to, i could RIGHT NOW, go to any number of ETC sellers, and buy say, 4 ETC, convert those 4 ETC into 8 PLEX, and sell the PLEX on the market in game. that would net me somewhere in the region of 2.8 billion isk.


The two transactions are not the same, even from the purchaser's point of view.

With NeX the ship you buy magically appears in your hangar, wherever you are, regardless of how many reds are camping the undock.

With PLEX, you have to go to the market to buy the ship that someone else has manufactured and put up for sale. If that ship isn't for sale in your station, you can't buy it and fly it.

So even with that minor detail, the two purchasing systems are incredibly different. You're also intentionally ignoring the entire industry behind the production of faction ships which includes mission runners farming LP, T1 manufacturers producing the base product, miners supplying the manufacturers, couriers carrying goods back and forth, and the pirates/hisec wardeccers who prey on that entire chain.

You have as little understanding of the game as the current CSM.




Firstly no need for the badly veiled insult.

secondly, i was responding to a specific qualm people had brought up which was 'using RL cash to buy faction ships / ammo / modules'

try reading what i said before attempting to poke holes in it.

Jonathan Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.16 17:51:00 - [115]
 

With CSM led by a goon (surrounded by a bunch of servile toadies) and the lead developer for Internet Spaceships being a goon, why is CCP doing nothing to address this clear conflict of interest?

It's not like Gianturdo even PRETENDS to represent the whole community or the game.

It's not like Touborg even PRETENDS that he didn't mean what he said in Fearless.

CCP, HTFU, get to work on a system where your customers get to vote directly on issues and publish the results in real-time (even if you plan to ignore them.) CSM has no credibility with the 90% of players who don't live in 0.0. They had all read Fearless well ahead of its public release and weren't troubled by it. They're all (with the exception of Trebor) in favor of the utterly insane wormhole nerf. If you want to keep them as a sort of Vichy government, with Alex acting as Marshal Pétain, that's fine. But the players need a voice, and it's past time pretending that this CSM is it.

DemetRYS
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.16 17:55:00 - [116]
 

Definitely smells like tea party in here.

But that would make Mittens Obama. I think i'm ok with this.

Jonathan Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.16 20:57:00 - [117]
 

I'm sorry, I messed up the link in this thread. Here's the link.

(P.S. Get a sense of humor.)

Lyrrashae
Minmatar
Crushed Ambitions
Posted - 2011.07.17 05:43:00 - [118]
 

Originally by: Headerman


Since the CSM is suppose to be a bridge between CCP and the players, what is the point of that bridge being just one way?


A one-way bridge is still a bridge.

</cynicism>

Lyrrashae
Minmatar
Crushed Ambitions
Posted - 2011.07.17 05:58:00 - [119]
 

Originally by: Real Poison

i'd rather shrug at designer g-string thongs for 10 plex worth of aurum. if that helps to pay for devs to get 0.0 fixes sooner.


What's it going to take to get it through your empty f***ing head that nullsec simply isn't the most important part of EVE, and that a large proportion of the player-base

A) Couldn't give two ****s about it
B) Doesn't want it's game ruined to support it, even if they did?

God, seriously, what's it going to take?

Back to fluffing the man-child for you now, sycophant.

Lyrrashae
Minmatar
Crushed Ambitions
Posted - 2011.07.17 06:14:00 - [120]
 

Originally by: baltec1

I would say the current tinfoil hat whiners are the fringe party. Also EVE has been growing over the last 2 years...


"Please show all figures for your work," as my profs used to put it...


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