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Cashcow Golden Goose
Posted - 2011.07.13 13:28:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: dexington
Edited by: dexington on 13/07/2011 13:13:12
Originally by: White Tree
I think some of you don't know what a straw-man argument is...


are you trying to say that stated premise fail to support the proposed conclusion?, or are you the one who don't know what a straw-man argument is...


He's desperately trying to make himself right by trying to sound clever.
He could just say, "Sorry, I decided not to read that but react to words that were not written", but nope, he's telling us that we're the stupid ones for not being smart enough to recognise the true genius behind what he said.

jackaloped
Posted - 2011.07.13 13:38:00 - [62]
 

If you quit your day job so you can play eve full time Eve becomes your life. Such a person could never represent players who are growing tired of the game's direction and thinking about leaving it. People who do not have lives outside of internet spaceships will never really represent most players.

I don't know or care about all the members, becasue for whatever reason decided to all fall behind brave leader.

I didn't even see any complaints when only mittani was allowed to speak at the press conference on behalf of the csm. Most of the players who voted did not vote for mittani. And its quite likely that most of the players who voted did not want mittani on the csm.

Why is Mittani speaking for the entire csm? The answer is easy. He sufficiently convinced ccp that he would be a loyal puppet. And he certainly has been. The only thing I can think is he is tired of being unemployed and wants a job at ccp. But that of course is just speculation.

The csm 5 was different, and that is why they actually stood up to ccp on several issues instead of playing pr puppet for ccp. They had lives outside of eve so they could take it or leave it. It seems many did leave it because - like many players posting on these forums - they see the game heading in a direction they don't like.

Ajunyx
Minmatar
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2011.07.13 13:44:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Cashcow Golden Goose
Originally by: dexington
Edited by: dexington on 13/07/2011 13:13:12
Originally by: White Tree
I think some of you don't know what a straw-man argument is...


are you trying to say that stated premise fail to support the proposed conclusion?, or are you the one who don't know what a straw-man argument is...


He's desperately trying to make himself right by trying to sound clever.
He could just say, "Sorry, I decided not to read that but react to words that were not written", but nope, he's telling us that we're the stupid ones for not being smart enough to recognise the true genius behind what he said.


I know White Tree and I can say he probably is smarter than you.

Cashcow Golden Goose
Posted - 2011.07.13 13:46:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Ajunyx
Originally by: Cashcow Golden Goose
Originally by: dexington
Edited by: dexington on 13/07/2011 13:13:12
Originally by: White Tree
I think some of you don't know what a straw-man argument is...


are you trying to say that stated premise fail to support the proposed conclusion?, or are you the one who don't know what a straw-man argument is...


He's desperately trying to make himself right by trying to sound clever.
He could just say, "Sorry, I decided not to read that but react to words that were not written", but nope, he's telling us that we're the stupid ones for not being smart enough to recognise the true genius behind what he said.


I know White Tree and I can say he probably is smarter than you.

I can see where he went wrong, that you cannot invalidates your appeal to authority.

Sasio Shihari
Posted - 2011.07.13 13:47:00 - [65]
 

The Teabaggers haven't really accomplished much other than protesting against tax cuts (which they asked for) and making the republicans look even more like a bunch of irrational rednecks..

Conversely, the Jita protesters did manage to make CCP hold an emergency CSM meeting, which is comparatively a greater result. So don't feel bad, monocle-rioters, you did have an effect.

I'm thinking Mittens was talking more about those people who, deep in their hearts, want CCP and Eve to go down in flames so they can say "I told you so."

Crellion
Parental Control
Merciless.
Posted - 2011.07.13 13:48:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: jackaloped
If you quit your day job so you can play eve full time Eve becomes your life. Such a person could never represent players who are growing tired of the game's direction and thinking about leaving it. People who do not have lives outside of internet spaceships will never really represent most players.

I don't know or care about all the members, becasue for whatever reason decided to all fall behind brave leader.

I didn't even see any complaints when only mittani was allowed to speak at the press conference on behalf of the csm. Most of the players who voted did not vote for mittani. And its quite likely that most of the players who voted did not want mittani on the csm.

Why is Mittani speaking for the entire csm? The answer is easy. He sufficiently convinced ccp that he would be a loyal puppet. And he certainly has been. The only thing I can think is he is tired of being unemployed and wants a job at ccp. But that of course is just speculation.

The csm 5 was different, and that is why they actually stood up to ccp on several issues instead of playing pr puppet for ccp. They had lives outside of eve so they could take it or leave it. It seems many did leave it because - like many players posting on these forums - they see the game heading in a direction they don't like.


Now I dont know enough about the powleetix to just write QFT but it definately rings true to me.

The CSM went to Iceland to get a clear reply from CCP and instead they came up with a statement of their own saying (rough translation quote it if you can): What we have seen reassures us that it was all a communication error and future pricing plans are all good.

Then we hear there will be cheaper and more expensive items etc etc and no actual game development (the spaceships game not barbie online) is expected for a good couple of years...

My reaction to the announcements was: does even the CSM have any idea what the problem is here? In my eyes announcements from the CSM and CCP alike were simply oriented to quiet the unrest and sto people unsubing (I like that too if they all leave it will be single player) but calming them with smoke and mirrors and not with addressing the real issues...

"Relax there will be cheaper boots, so all is well and this was all mostly a misunderstanding" is such a completely ridiculous proposition that I am amazed the CSM and CCP had the nerve to utter it in unison...

My 2 isk anyway...


Ripley Nostromo
Posted - 2011.07.13 13:48:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: jackaloped
- like many players posting on these forums - they see the game heading in a direction they don't like.

I can hardly wait to buy SP. It's coming, you'll see...

It's only a matter of time.... You'll see...

CoolCoolCoolCool

Cashcow Golden Goose
Posted - 2011.07.13 13:52:00 - [68]
 

Edited by: Cashcow Golden Goose on 13/07/2011 13:52:12
Originally by: Ripley Nostromo
Originally by: jackaloped
- like many players posting on these forums - they see the game heading in a direction they don't like.

I can hardly wait to buy SP. It's coming, you'll see...

It's only a matter of time.... You'll see...

CoolCoolCoolCool


Indeed. When CCP alter the rate at which they sell SP, or give me additional options for purchasing SP, I will take them up on the offer. When I see an explosion in this game, I am already reasonably convinced that the explosion is between 3 and 8% reliant on somebody somewhere using a macro, somebody somewhere account sharing along with many other violations and corruptions of the rules of the game.
If the person who was flying the explosion before it was an explosion just so happened to have bought that character for real dollars either on Ebay or Char Bazaar or NeX Store Skill Point EXchAnge won't matter one driplet to me.

Mintala Arana
Amarr
Posted - 2011.07.13 13:58:00 - [69]
 

The CSM is correct. Fringe groups, unless they can develop grassroots support in numbers sufficient to start making changes, are irrelevant.

Welcome to realpolitik.

dexington
Caldari
Baconoration
Posted - 2011.07.13 14:15:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: jackaloped
If you quit your day job so you can play eve full time Eve becomes your life. Such a person could never represent players who are growing tired of the game's direction and thinking about leaving it. People who do not have lives outside of internet spaceships will never really represent most players.


The CSM only represent the players who by chance share their or their alliances views, they don't in anyway represent the eve player base in general. Anyone who don't share the views of the big alliances have little to no chance of voicing their opinion through the CSM.

The views of the CMS members are to homogenous to represent the player base, it's basically a one party democracy.

Khamelean
Posted - 2011.07.13 14:21:00 - [71]
 

Yes, only a small portion of the total eve population voted in the CSM elections. But the rest still voiced there opinion, which was "I don't care enough to vote". Thus giving up their chance to voice their opinions later. Them's the breaks.

jackaloped
Posted - 2011.07.13 14:21:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Mintala Arana
The CSM is correct. Fringe groups, unless they can develop grassroots support in numbers sufficient to start making changes, are irrelevant.

Welcome to realpolitik.


But who is the fringe group? Are there more players who have quit their day job to make eve their life and lead a large null sec alliance, or are there more players who can take or leave eve, and the way things are going will likely leave?

In the minutes it was reported that a large portion of the players have been playing for under 1 year or so. (something like that I don't have time to find the exact quote sorry) Yet the total number of subscriptions has been holding steady over the last 2 years. (instead of growing like it had for the years before) That should tell you that a large portion of the players are not sticking around with eve.

But whatever, it is up to ccp to decide if the views of those who are leaving the game are relevant.

Cashcow Golden Goose
Posted - 2011.07.13 14:35:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Khamelean
Yes, only a small portion of the total eve population voted in the CSM elections. But the rest still voiced there opinion, which was "I don't care enough to vote". Thus giving up their chance to voice their opinions later. Them's the breaks.


Zinfandel, why are non voters allowed to post on the forums?
Could it be because you are wrong?

baltec1
Posted - 2011.07.13 14:40:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: jackaloped


But who is the fringe group? Are there more players who have quit their day job to make eve their life and lead a large null sec alliance, or are there more players who can take or leave eve, and the way things are going will likely leave?

In the minutes it was reported that a large portion of the players have been playing for under 1 year or so. (something like that I don't have time to find the exact quote sorry) Yet the total number of subscriptions has been holding steady over the last 2 years. (instead of growing like it had for the years before) That should tell you that a large portion of the players are not sticking around with eve.

But whatever, it is up to ccp to decide if the views of those who are leaving the game are relevant.


I would say the current tinfoil hat whiners are the fringe party. Also EVE has been growing over the last 2 years...

Dodgy Past
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Posted - 2011.07.13 15:06:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Sasio Shihari
I'm thinking Mittens was talking more about those people who, deep in their hearts, want CCP and Eve to go down in flames so they can say "I told you so."
Eve going down in flames would put a fair amount of people out of their misery. So would Hilmar apologising and guaranteeing that non-vanity MTs will never be introduced.

Since Eve going down in flames is more likely of those two that's their best shot at relief.

jackaloped
Posted - 2011.07.13 15:09:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: jackaloped


But who is the fringe group? Are there more players who have quit their day job to make eve their life and lead a large null sec alliance, or are there more players who can take or leave eve, and the way things are going will likely leave?

In the minutes it was reported that a large portion of the players have been playing for under 1 year or so. (something like that I don't have time to find the exact quote sorry) Yet the total number of subscriptions has been holding steady over the last 2 years. (instead of growing like it had for the years before) That should tell you that a large portion of the players are not sticking around with eve.

But whatever, it is up to ccp to decide if the views of those who are leaving the game are relevant.


I would say the current tinfoil hat whiners are the fringe party. Also EVE has been growing over the last 2 years...


Originally by: csm minutes

CCP added that newer players, less than one year old, are a very large portion of the playerbase...


Well a very large portion of the player base is less than one year old. In the past year has there been overall "very large growth" in the total number of subscriptions? If the number of total subscriptions are about even then a very large number of subscribers are quitting. Its simple math really.

Do you have some credible information on the amount of growth? The last graph I saw did not look great for eve.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.07.13 15:12:00 - [77]
 

There are members of the CSM dumb enough to think ABC ores need to be removed from wormholes (either that or they're protecting their bot operations).

Based on that alone, I have no confidence in the majority of the CSM.

Signal11th
Posted - 2011.07.13 15:24:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Ajunyx
Originally by: Cashcow Golden Goose
Originally by: dexington
Edited by: dexington on 13/07/2011 13:13:12
Originally by: White Tree
I think some of you don't know what a straw-man argument is...


are you trying to say that stated premise fail to support the proposed conclusion?, or are you the one who don't know what a straw-man argument is...


He's desperately trying to make himself right by trying to sound clever.
He could just say, "Sorry, I decided not to read that but react to words that were not written", but nope, he's telling us that we're the stupid ones for not being smart enough to recognise the true genius behind what he said.


I know White Tree and I can say he probably is smarter than you.


Crikey, that's quite an assumption on your part.

baltec1
Posted - 2011.07.13 15:28:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: jackaloped


Well a very large portion of the player base is less than one year old. In the past year has there been overall "very large growth" in the total number of subscriptions? If the number of total subscriptions are about even then a very large number of subscribers are quitting. Its simple math really.

Do you have some credible information on the amount of growth? The last graph I saw did not look great for eve.


Well not so long ago players were quitting at six months so if anything it shows players are staying for longer. EVE has always had a large new player loss rate.

Anyway the numbers can be found in the QEN in evelopia. They show a high in mid 2010 followed by a dip over the summer months followed by a rise in early 2011. Its not much of a rise but there are more space monkies.

Xavier Liche
Posted - 2011.07.13 15:29:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Captain's Courageous
Edited by: Captain''s Courageous on 13/07/2011 03:37:20
Recently, the CSM has, in a publicized article, implied that the gamers who quit in protest over the recent micro-transactions controversy were as irrelevant as the Tea Party. First, that's insulting and degrading to gamers who have spent years paying for the privilege of playing EVE, and second, the implication is wrong. Over 1/4th of Americans identify themselves with the Tea Party, and the Tea Party have currently usurped the issue positions of the GOP. I believe that this level of unprofessionalism and ignorance speaks volumes about the integrity of the CSM, and must therefore request that a motion for a vote of no confidence be filed.

Signed,

Matthew L.

Original quote: "They are always going to be there. It is not relevant on any level, in any democratic process what the lunatic fringe thinks. Just look at, in America, the Tea Party, the John Birch Society, or what have you. Any of these isolated movements, on the fringes, they are very loud, but they donít actually impact sh*t. So, thatís pretty much my view of that.Ē

- http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/14/feature/5382/page/2

Edit: I am not supporting or defending the Tea Party. I am objecting to the CSM's statement of comparison.


The Tea Party is just a bunch of closet bigots who will make up any bull**** to spread their hate. The started right off with their whole fanatical rant about how Obama was over spending when in fact it was Bush's two pointless wars that cost us so much money. But no, they blame Pbama Care which doesn't even take affect for another year but somehow a law that is not in effect costs more that 2 pointless wars.

lol @ haters



Cashcow Golden Goose
Posted - 2011.07.13 15:39:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Xavier Liche
Originally by: Captain's Courageous
Edited by: Captain''s Courageous on 13/07/2011 03:37:20
Recently, the CSM has, in a publicized article, implied that the gamers who quit in protest over the recent micro-transactions controversy were as irrelevant as the Tea Party. First, that's insulting and degrading to gamers who have spent years paying for the privilege of playing EVE, and second, the implication is wrong. Over 1/4th of Americans identify themselves with the Tea Party, and the Tea Party have currently usurped the issue positions of the GOP. I believe that this level of unprofessionalism and ignorance speaks volumes about the integrity of the CSM, and must therefore request that a motion for a vote of no confidence be filed.

Signed,

Matthew L.

Original quote: "They are always going to be there. It is not relevant on any level, in any democratic process what the lunatic fringe thinks. Just look at, in America, the Tea Party, the John Birch Society, or what have you. Any of these isolated movements, on the fringes, they are very loud, but they donít actually impact sh*t. So, thatís pretty much my view of that.Ē

- http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/14/feature/5382/page/2

Edit: I am not supporting or defending the Tea Party. I am objecting to the CSM's statement of comparison.


The Tea Party is just a bunch of closet bigots who will make up any bull**** to spread their hate. The started right off with their whole fanatical rant about how Obama was over spending when in fact it was Bush's two pointless wars that cost us so much money. But no, they blame Pbama Care which doesn't even take affect for another year but somehow a law that is not in effect costs more that 2 pointless wars.

lol @ haters




I can't say too much for obvious reasons.
1,2 and 3. Pose as a tea bagger. Use some loaded phrases "BLACK man in the WHITE house" I have found to be very effective at getting Director roles.

4. Profit.

Maduin Ardens
Eve Innovations
Eternal Evocations
Posted - 2011.07.13 15:52:00 - [82]
 

Edited by: Maduin Ardens on 13/07/2011 15:59:22
Originally by: Jonathan Ferguson
They argue for changes that will benefit their alliances over the good of the game. Time to throw the bums out.


The CSM are elected to speak for various facets of the subscriber base at large, such as null security, empire, industry, PvP, etc.

So are you saying that a 0.0 dweller who is elected to speak on behalf of null security dweller interests, who argues his or her case whether it benefits Empire dwellers or not, is somehow wrong?

I must have a vastly incorrect understanding of what an elected representative is supposed to do, Laughing
Oh wait, I understand perfectly.

Very Happy

Did you think CCP just had elections for a handful of random popular subscribers in the game, got them all in a room, and demanded "MAKE GAME BETTER! ... GO!" ?

It is not quite like that, friend.


Edit: Although I do see a surprising amount of 0.0 dwellers on the list this year, did something change? Shame on CCP if it did...

T'amber Anomandari Demaleon
Posted - 2011.07.13 16:00:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Roc Wieler
Should've voted Roc.


true that brother! :P

dexington
Caldari
Baconoration
Posted - 2011.07.13 16:10:00 - [84]
 

Edited by: dexington on 13/07/2011 16:23:31
Originally by: Maduin Ardens
Edited by: Maduin Ardens on 13/07/2011 15:53:22
Originally by: Jonathan Ferguson
They argue for changes that will benefit their alliances over the good of the game. Time to throw the bums out.


The CSM are elected to speak for various facets of the subscriber base at large, such as null security, empire, industry, PvP, etc.

So are you saying that a 0.0 dweller who is elected to speak on behalf of null security dweller interests, who argues his or her case whether it benefits Empire dwellers or not, is somehow wrong?

I must have a vastly incorrect understanding of what an elected representative is supposed to do, Laughing
Oh wait, I understand perfectly.

Very Happy

Did you think CCP just had elections for a handful of random popular subscribers in the game, got them all in a room, and demanded "MAKE GAME BETTER! ... GO!" ?

It is not quite like that, friend.


The problem is that more or less everyone in the CSM wants to improve null sec, the CSM is not covering the various facets of the subscriber base, only the part that lives in 0.0.

The Mittani was whining about the CSM when they didn't mainly focus on 0.0, and now that that goal is reached, everyone who has complains about anything else in the game belong to the minority of raving lunatics.

Jita Jenn
Posted - 2011.07.13 16:24:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Captain's Courageous
Over 1/4th of Americans identify themselves with the Tea Party, and the Tea Party have currently usurped the issue positions of the GOP.




I stopped reading there. You're obviously an idiot.

Maduin Ardens
Eve Innovations
Eternal Evocations
Posted - 2011.07.13 16:25:00 - [86]
 

Edited by: Maduin Ardens on 13/07/2011 16:26:08
Originally by: dexington
Edited by: dexington on 13/07/2011 16:23:31
Originally by: Maduin Ardens
Edited by: Maduin Ardens on 13/07/2011 15:53:22
Originally by: Jonathan Ferguson
They argue for changes that will benefit their alliances over the good of the game. Time to throw the bums out.


The CSM are elected to speak for various facets of the subscriber base at large, such as null security, empire, industry, PvP, etc.

So are you saying that a 0.0 dweller who is elected to speak on behalf of null security dweller interests, who argues his or her case whether it benefits Empire dwellers or not, is somehow wrong?

I must have a vastly incorrect understanding of what an elected representative is supposed to do, Laughing
Oh wait, I understand perfectly.

Very Happy

Did you think CCP just had elections for a handful of random popular subscribers in the game, got them all in a room, and demanded "MAKE GAME BETTER! ... GO!" ?

It is not quite like that, friend.


The problem is that more or less everyone in the CSM wants to improve null sec, the CSM is not covering the various facets of the subscriber base, only the part that lives in 0.0.

The Mittani was whining about the CSM when they didn't mainly focus on 0.0, and now that that goal is reached, everyone who has complains about anything else in the game belong to the minority of raving lunatics.



Ahhhh interesting, I stand corrected then... there should be better representation then for sure, however... a few things need to be left alone for good, like making Empire even more easy and giving people less reasons than ever to leave it.

But interesting, thanks for the information!

Jita Jenn
Posted - 2011.07.13 16:30:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: dexington

The problem is that more or less everyone in the CSM wants to improve null sec, the CSM is not covering the various facets of the subscriber base, only the part that lives in 0.0.

The Mittani was whining about the CSM when they didn't mainly focus on 0.0, and now that that goal is reached, everyone who has complains about anything else in the game belong to the minority of raving lunatics.


CCP devs prioritize highsec because that's where the majority of players live. The CSM highlights problems in nullsec that CCP are not aware of because nullsec has never been a priority.

DogTyred
Cool4Cats
Posted - 2011.07.13 16:35:00 - [88]
 

If we're having a Tea Party can I have cucumber sandwiches please

dexington
Caldari
Baconoration
Posted - 2011.07.13 16:42:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Jita Jenn
CCP devs prioritize highsec because that's where the majority of players live. The CSM highlights problems in nullsec that CCP are not aware of because nullsec has never been a priority.


If what you say is true then the CSM represent the minority of 0.0 players, and should not be seen as the voice of the community. I don't care all that much if the CSM focus on high or low sec, i'm just sick and tired of them claiming to be "the voice" of the community, when they only work for their own and their alliances interest.

The community clearly voiced more opinions against micro transactions then for, still the CSM chairman publicly says that the only part of the community that don't like micro transactions are loud lunatics.

Callic Veratar
Posted - 2011.07.13 16:46:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Zelda Wei

All the hallmarks of illusory superiority and continuous failure to recognise the extend of their incompetence.

The current CSM is a text book definition of the Dunning Kruger effect.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but you have not served on the CSM and do not have a lot of information about how it works as there are a lot of NDAs signed. If you are going to invoke Dunning Kruger, I would request that you acknowledge that you may be operating under it's cognitive bias as well.


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