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Kithrus
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.13 03:00:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Kithrus on 13/07/2011 05:23:29
Edited by: Kithrus on 13/07/2011 03:00:23
After one of the posts caught my intrest a few days ago it has come my attention I'm not alone in my worry of the Sansha. So I have started to talk to a number of Amarr and Matari FW corps and even corps like EM and CVA on both sides to sign a treaty regarding this issue.

I post this to raise awareness of my attempts in this matter.

Its a simple thing really. Amarr and Matari corps will declare all incursions sites to be offlimits as far as the war in considered except in the intention to queall the attack from Sansha. There will be no POS placement or warfare of any type. And enemies of the other faction encounted there must be left in peace as long as they fight Sansha.

this will allow each faction to focus on defeating the threat in that space and save more lives.

I'm sure we can hammer out details of this treaty as time goes on but it will be signed its just a question of when and how many will have the honor enough to do so.

I hope in time maybe the caldari and gallenteans will follow suite.

To the death of Sansha!

Serenity Frye
Gallente
Heretic Army
B A N E
Posted - 2011.07.13 04:05:00 - [2]
 

Another belligerent and ignorant post made by a CVA member. How typical. Let it be known that there are those who will not stand for this blasphemous union of forces.

Kithrus
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.13 05:21:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Serenity Frye
Another belligerent and ignorant post made by a CVA member. How typical. Let it be known that there are those who will not stand for this blasphemous union of forces.


I respect you enough as a person to remind you if this works you will standing before a union not unlike the first that ended the Sansha.

Its high time the pod pilots wake up to the threat that knocks on their doors.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.13 07:22:00 - [4]
 

I for one will take a dim view of any Amarrian who comes to any agreement with enemy forces without appropriate authorisation.

Caviar Liberta
Gallente
Moira.
Posted - 2011.07.13 07:54:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Caviar Liberta on 13/07/2011 07:55:37
The path least traveled is often the most difficult to walk. When you are the lone voice trying to be heard above the shouting of the multitudes. I know what its like to be accused of taking boosters and seemingly detached from reality with suggesting such ideas. I'm sure there has to be those in the Caldari state and Minmatar Republic who have the same idea but hasn't found their voice yet to speak out in the same manner.

I would like to thank Kithrus for taking the first step down the path which has yet to be layed out. For having the courage to stand up for what is right even in the face of such opposition.

Pol Macsliebh
Minmatar
Sarz'na Khumatari
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2011.07.13 09:05:00 - [6]
 

Renounce Slavery? Sansha=Amarr to most Matari. Any treaty will fail it has no grounding in reality and lacks
any knowledge of the Matari mind, soul and will. Working with slavers to defeat another slaver is a betrayal
of all we(matari) have ever believed and fought in. I will personaly fly into Amarr space where incursions are
Happening and shoot you in the face, try rescue any people YOU have enslaved and leave the Sansha to the good people
of the Amarrian Empire.

Pol

Boma Airaken
Seekers of a Silent Paradise
Posted - 2011.07.13 13:19:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake
I for one will take a dim view of any Amarrian who comes to any agreement with enemy forces without appropriate authorisation.


I firmly agree with you and hope that you will continue to discourage those would engage in this behavior.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.07.13 13:46:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake
I for one will take a dim view of any Amarrian who comes to any agreement with enemy forces without appropriate authorisation.


I believe part of Lord Crases' purpose in this is to obtain appropriate authorization.

Lord Crases, as stated previously, I support the initiative to negotiate cease fires within systems under incursion. However, you must remember that there is no central organization to the capsuleer militia groups. Without acquiescence from all corporations involved on all sides of the field (including some of the alliances that are not directly involved in either militia but operate as a separate militia against their enemies (such as CVA and Electus Matari or Ushra'Khan)) than any effort to peacefully cooperate will meet with disastrous failure.

As has already been stated here, there are hostilities on both sides of the war that will not be easily set aside for any level of cooperation and that compounds the difficulty you face. It is likely that, at best, a few corporations or individuals will cooperate at their own risk.

As Admiral Blake has pointed out, unless the treaty you're seeking to have signed bears some official backing, it is simply an initiative between capsuleers and will require absolute and complete cooperation and integrity to uphold.

I will pray for your success in this endeavor and offer to cooperate to best of my ability within the bounds of my duties.


Mra Rednu
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.13 19:17:00 - [9]
 

So, if I may ask, why are you trying to make pacts for naps and ceasefires with our longterm enemies and under what authority ?

It would take a lot less effort but more common sense to just make contact with some of the many groups in New Eden who specialise in the hunting of Sansha during the Incursions, these groups travel all over setup for this and it would not involve any deals or naps with our enemies or even changes in standings to anyone from either side.

As a sideffect this would also stop people wondering what the real motives are from anyone suddenly making deals with lonterm enemies.

Shalee Lianne
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.07.13 19:31:00 - [10]
 

Mister Rednu, do these groups that you speak of venture to low sec?

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.07.13 20:06:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Raze Valadeus on 13/07/2011 21:27:20
Originally by: Mra Rednu
So, if I may ask, why are you trying to make pacts for naps and ceasefires with our longterm enemies and under what authority ?

It would take a lot less effort but more common sense to just make contact with some of the many groups in New Eden who specialise in the hunting of Sansha during the Incursions, these groups travel all over setup for this and it would not involve any deals or naps with our enemies or even changes in standings to anyone from either side.

As a sideffect this would also stop people wondering what the real motives are from anyone suddenly making deals with lonterm enemies.


I believe Lord Crases clearly stated his purpose and his intentions in his original address, Mister Rednu.

Beyond that, there are groups available to coordinate against Nation incursions, such as the SYNENOSE Accord. However, SYNE can not be everywhere at once and it falls on those of us who have sworn to defend our people to do just that.

There are no "deals" being made, it is simply a civil initiative to try and coordinate efforts against a common enemy so that we are not flanked on multiple fronts and everybody ends up losing.

(Additional correction of an earlier misunderstanding. I spoke incorrectly regarding my cooperation with the SYNENOSE Accord, I am not officially a part of the Accord, I work within the SYNENOSE Coalition when I am able to do so. I apologize sincerely for the miscommunication and misunderstanding.)

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.13 20:33:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Kithrus
Its a simple thing really. Amarr and Matari corps will declare all incursions sites to be offlimits as far as the war in considered except in the intention to queall the attack from Sansha. There will be no POS placement or warfare of any type. And enemies of the other faction encounted there must be left in peace as long as they fight Sansha.


While I agree that it can be opportune to coordinate some actions in times of Sansha invasion, I do not think a unilateral or bilateral declaration of non-agression is either required or desired.

Can I hear a report of the incidents that caused damage to loyalist interests due that could have been avoided by such a treaty?

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.13 20:36:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Raze Valadeus


There are no "deals" being made


I note that this discussion is entitled "Sansha War Treaty"

The last time I checked, treaty was a synonym of deal.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.07.13 20:54:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Raze Valadeus on 13/07/2011 21:04:02
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Raze Valadeus


There are no "deals" being made


I note that this discussion is entitled "Sansha War Treaty"

The last time I checked, treaty was a synonym of deal.


I concede that point willingly, Admiral.

Allow me to correct my previous statement then.

The treaty would constitute a cease fire or NAP while the militia bodies focus on the defense of their people and systems without having to also defend against one another. It is, if nothing else, a temporary resolution that will help ensure the continued safety and care of all parties involved.

I am not attempting to argue the need or necessity for such an agreement, simply that I believe it would be prudent and beneficial.

Cmdr Baxter
The Synenose Accord
Celestial Imperative
Posted - 2011.07.13 22:35:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Cmdr Baxter on 13/07/2011 22:43:20
Originally by: Merdaneth
While I agree that it can be opportune to coordinate some actions in times of Sansha invasion, I do not think a unilateral or bilateral declaration of non-agression is either required or desired.

Can I hear a report of the incidents that caused damage to loyalist interests due that could have been avoided by such a treaty?

I think the issue here isn't past incidents, but rather future incidents.

Nation is using every trick at their disposal to stack the deck to cause maximum casualties amongst capsuleers. Hebisa and Zith were our wakeup calls. Wormholes being used to execute surprise attacks, frigates chasing ships trying to withdraw, and unending waves of support ships to name the highlights. Speaking personally, I don't anticipate a departure from these tactics anytime soon.

With this in mind, for example, what if Nation hits the Metropolis region again at a time when there are few Minmatar pilots available? Would you rather allow Nation the right to freely challenge you on your home territory, being unable to dislodge them with your lack of numbers, or allow a few Amarr pilots to temporarily enter your space to assist in kicking Nation out? From the confidence and bravado on the IGS, I conclude that Amarr you can handle. But Nation is unpredictable as we all know.

Note that I stressed the temporary permittance of Amarr forces in Minmatar territory, as my example. An open-ended commitment to automatic ceasefires in the event of an incursion will ... well ...

Personally, I agree that coordination instead of a formal document/treaty is the best strategy. Not all parties to the conflict are or would be willing to sign something automatically committing them to a ceasefire in the event of an incursion. But there are times when extra firepower is required to dislodge an incursion. If an Amarr fleet enters Metropolis to do its small part in destroying a Nation incursion, are you really going to miss unending waves of bounty-less ships in space, led by a well-defended beast of a capship shooting up everything in sight?

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.07.13 22:41:00 - [16]
 

A well-reasoned argument, Commander Baxter.

I apologize for my mistake earlier in this communication, it has been corrected.

Kithrus
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.14 02:34:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Kithrus on 14/07/2011 02:35:59
Originally by: Cmdr Baxter
Edited by: Cmdr Baxter on 13/07/2011 22:43:20
Originally by: Merdaneth
While I agree that it can be opportune to coordinate some actions in times of Sansha invasion, I do not think a unilateral or bilateral declaration of non-agression is either required or desired.

Can I hear a report of the incidents that caused damage to loyalist interests due that could have been avoided by such a treaty?

I think the issue here isn't past incidents, but rather future incidents.

Nation is using every trick at their disposal to stack the deck to cause maximum casualties amongst capsuleers. Hebisa and Zith were our wakeup calls. Wormholes being used to execute surprise attacks, frigates chasing ships trying to withdraw, and unending waves of support ships to name the highlights. Speaking personally, I don't anticipate a departure from these tactics anytime soon.

With this in mind, for example, what if Nation hits the Metropolis region again at a time when there are few Minmatar pilots available? Would you rather allow Nation the right to freely challenge you on your home territory, being unable to dislodge them with your lack of numbers, or allow a few Amarr pilots to temporarily enter your space to assist in kicking Nation out? From the confidence and bravado on the IGS, I conclude that Amarr you can handle. But Nation is unpredictable as we all know.

Note that I stressed the temporary permittance of Amarr forces in Minmatar territory, as my example. An open-ended commitment to automatic ceasefires in the event of an incursion will ... well ...

Personally, I agree that coordination instead of a formal document/treaty is the best strategy. Not all parties to the conflict are or would be willing to sign something automatically committing them to a ceasefire in the event of an incursion. But there are times when extra firepower is required to dislodge an incursion. If an Amarr fleet enters Metropolis to do its small part in destroying a Nation incursion, are you really going to miss unending waves of bounty-less ships in space, led by a well-defended beast of a capship shooting up everything in sight?


I thank you sir for understanding my point. My fear that the Sansha will do something terrible eats at my mind and robs me from sleep. As the death tolls mount and the most recsent attack not more then a single Jump from homeworld gives me great pause.

This is less about Amarr's past enimies and more about recreating the sence of unity to deal with Sansha like we did in the past.

However I feel that before that truely happens history will repeat itself and Sansha will first have to destroy something we hold dear before we forget our feuds.

Do not get me wrong I respect our FW brothers and wish them well but the matari are not poised to glass a planet or two suddenly, nor us to them.

Mra Rednu
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.14 07:17:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Raze Valadeus
[I believe Lord Crases clearly stated his purpose and his intentions in his original address, Mister Rednu.

Beyond that, there are groups available to coordinate against Nation incursions, such as the SYNENOSE Accord. However, SYNE can not be everywhere at once and it falls on those of us who have sworn to defend our people to do just that.




SYNE are only one of many goups, plus it is true neither can the Sansha be everywhere, currently there are so many groups in competition to kill off the Incursion bases that they often cross each others path.

Originally by: Shalee Lianne
Mister Rednu, do these groups that you speak of venture to low sec?


Of course they do, plus with all the diplomats we suddenly seem to of aquired, making sure the rogue elements of the militia's leave them alone should be easy.


Borza Slavak
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2011.07.14 10:28:00 - [19]
 

The current Nation incursions appear to be aimed at Capsuleers rather than enslaving planetary populations.
Thus they are not currently a higher priority than the Amarrian threat.

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.07.14 11:33:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Mra Rednu
So, if I may ask, why are you trying to make pacts for naps and ceasefires with our longterm enemies and under what authority ?

It would take a lot less effort but more common sense to just make contact with some of the many groups in New Eden who specialise in the hunting of Sansha during the Incursions, these groups travel all over setup for this and it would not involve any deals or naps with our enemies or even changes in standings to anyone from either side.

As a sideffect this would also stop people wondering what the real motives are from anyone suddenly making deals with lonterm enemies.


These occasional and non permanent deals/NAPs have already occured in the first wide scale Sansha incursions in Kamela and Auga in the past, where both Militias more or less agreed not to annoy each other when they were dealing with the Sansha threat, even if the NAPs in question were not formal and totally unofficial.

In any case, the capsuleers of the Militia are free to act as they wish as long as the job is done (which is sometimes an issue when it comes to piracy regulation inside the Militias, thing you are probably aware of). On that point, fighting for the sake of fighting the enemy when it does not even come to "plexing" warfare is almost meaningless.

Ciar Meara
Amarr
Virtus Vindice
Posted - 2011.07.14 14:22:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake
I for one will take a dim view of any Amarrian who comes to any agreement with enemy forces without appropriate authorisation.


Saving Amarrians and minmatars or any other race from Sansha abduction and God know what follows is clearly a good thing. Surely we must safe the innocents before we can save their souls.

To stand by and let all these souls be lost forever while we continue to fight eachother is a more henous crime then not shooting old enemies.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.14 14:29:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Ciar Meara
Originally by: Rodj Blake
I for one will take a dim view of any Amarrian who comes to any agreement with enemy forces without appropriate authorisation.


Saving Amarrians and minmatars or any other race from Sansha abduction and God know what follows is clearly a good thing. Surely we must safe the innocents before we can save their souls.

To stand by and let all these souls be lost forever while we continue to fight eachother is a more henous crime then not shooting old enemies.


You need to take into account the fact that Sansha seem to currently be focusing on capsuleers, not planetary populations.

Are you willing to tell an Amarrian businessman living under Shakor's yoke that capsuleers need more help than him? What about those Amarrians sent to Minmatar prison camps or those Minmatars forever denied the chance of being enlightened?

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.07.14 16:19:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Ciar Meara
Originally by: Rodj Blake
I for one will take a dim view of any Amarrian who comes to any agreement with enemy forces without appropriate authorisation.


Saving Amarrians and minmatars or any other race from Sansha abduction and God know what follows is clearly a good thing. Surely we must safe the innocents before we can save their souls.

To stand by and let all these souls be lost forever while we continue to fight eachother is a more henous crime then not shooting old enemies.


You need to take into account the fact that Sansha seem to currently be focusing on capsuleers, not planetary populations.

Are you willing to tell an Amarrian businessman living under Shakor's yoke that capsuleers need more help than him? What about those Amarrians sent to Minmatar prison camps or those Minmatars forever denied the chance of being enlightened?


Admiral,

With sincere respect and an understanding of your point, I would suggest that capsuleers are only the first step. If we fail to stop Nation, or allow any extended period of weakness, it is quite likely he will continue to target baseliners whenever he needs them again.

We've already made the mistakes of allowing thousands, even millions, to be taken by Nation because of our failure to respond appropriately (among other things), let us not repeat our mistakes but rather learn from them.

Nachshon
Caldari
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2011.07.15 01:31:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Pol Macsliebh
Renounce Slavery? Sansha=Amarr to most Matari. Any treaty will fail it has no grounding in reality and lacks
any knowledge of the Matari mind, soul and will. Working with slavers to defeat another slaver is a betrayal
of all we(matari) have ever believed and fought in. I will personaly fly into Amarr space where incursions are
Happening and shoot you in the face, try rescue any people YOU have enslaved and leave the Sansha to the good people
of the Amarrian Empire.

Pol


Be reasonable, my friend. As bad as the Amarr are, the Sansha are worse. The Minmatar enslaved in the Empire still have their minds. Not so the "True Slaves" of the Sansha.

A temporary alliance in pursuit of a common goal is only rational.

Gosakumori Noh
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2011.07.15 02:57:00 - [25]
 

It is largely true Kuvakei's "strategy" of not accomplishing much leaves him about as significant as any other interminable conflict between empires. There is at least some risk, however, Nation will someday become an actual menace - conquering empire space, destroying infrastructure, turning populations into cybernetic minions, and expanding his "stain."

There is no harm to Imperial interests in identifying a framework for cooperating against that eventuality, if a precondition for action is an actual change in the status quo.

Borza Slavak
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2011.07.15 09:31:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Nachshon
Originally by: Pol Macsliebh
Renounce Slavery? Sansha=Amarr to most Matari. Any treaty will fail it has no grounding in reality and lacks
any knowledge of the Matari mind, soul and will. Working with slavers to defeat another slaver is a betrayal
of all we(matari) have ever believed and fought in. I will personaly fly into Amarr space where incursions are
Happening and shoot you in the face, try rescue any people YOU have enslaved and leave the Sansha to the good people
of the Amarrian Empire.

Pol


Be reasonable, my friend. As bad as the Amarr are, the Sansha are worse. The Minmatar enslaved in the Empire still have their minds. Not so the "True Slaves" of the Sansha.

A temporary alliance in pursuit of a common goal is only rational.


Ushra'Khan's goal is not to protect the godlike self-interested squabbling children who make up most of the capsuleer class.
Let us know if the Nation begins uplifting civilians from planets rather than pricking the egos of spoilt pod pilots, 99.9% of whom are worthy only of contempt.

Altaen
Lutinari Syndicate
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.07.15 10:51:00 - [27]
 

I will speak strongly against such a treaty should it at some point be offered. My reason is more rational than you might think...

Nation has turned the entirety of it's attention to capsuleers. Good! They are no longer a threat to those of my people that are actually vulnerable to their attentions, and for as long as this remains the case, they aren't an urgent enough threat to motivate me to support such a cease fire.

Domitianus Fury
Amarr
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2011.07.17 06:05:00 - [28]
 

A treaty with the lessest of races does not seem particularly desirable. For two reasons.

1. Many matari pod pilots claim to crew their ships exclusively with escaped slaves. These slaves must be returned to the fold at any opportunity.

2. We true and faithful Amarrians do not need the help of the matar. To say otherwise is tantamount to heresy. To enlist their services should only be done for their own good.


Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Kumiho's Smile
Posted - 2011.07.17 06:37:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Aria Jenneth on 17/07/2011 06:39:53
Originally by: Altaen
Nation has turned the entirety of it's attention to capsuleers. Good! They are no longer a threat to those of my people that are actually vulnerable to their attentions, and for as long as this remains the case, they aren't an urgent enough threat to motivate me to support such a cease fire.


Pilot, as repeatedly pointed out elsewhere, the Nation cannot defeat us by targeting our ships or pods, and is inevitably aware of this. It can, however, defeat us by destroying our support network.

Unless Kuvakei is idiotic as well as crazy (always a dangerous assumption to make of an enemy), he will target humans again, probably as soon as he's confirmed that he can lock effective capsuleer resistance out of a given system.

That being the case, your argument is purest naivete. No-- I am being too kind.

It is stupidity, plain and simple.

Jason Galente
Gallente
mishima ryu
Posted - 2011.07.17 08:53:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Domitianus Fury
lessest



You wound me.

Deeply.



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