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Auwnie Morohe
Posted - 2011.07.13 00:11:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Auwnie Morohe on 16/07/2011 12:14:55
Apparently I was a bit too quick to judge. Well that is what assumptions are for aren't they.Cool

The Arek'jaalan project with its move into the wiki is looking like a very interesting new game mechanic.

Quote:
I was wondering what the deal was because I'm getting a bad feeling from it even though I might be the only one. From what I saw ingame on the mailing list it seemed like Mr Tukos was taking charge of the pack, making plans, giving orders, setting research goals and accepting isk.

Question for the Lore team
Does the Sleeper story need to have an particular event happen before a certain time(30-11-11?) that is suppose to be player driven?
How much hand holding is there going to be?
How much of the Sleeper mystery will be revealed through, or with help of actors?

I could be wrong in my assumptions but then the question remains what is the deal with Arek'Jaalan? And I dont mean the ship because that is fairly clear what that is for.

Cerberus 001
Posted - 2011.07.13 01:06:00 - [2]
 

If anything goes down it would probably be in a wormhole, the guy is making a small 'world' in a charon. This raises the question of either a stable wormhole or wormhole systems starting to get linked together. You would think that it would be just a matter of time before that starts to happen with the accessability of new worlds, only thing hindering this option is the sleeper threat which is in all probablility waking up quite a force what with the 'unblemished and possibly newly manufactured' Sleeper Ships we shoot. Right now not much but with possible millenia of manufacturing or even just storing a million billion ships you'd think eventually they would fight back proacivly. But this is rampent speculation for the most part, I hope some Eve events are in store for the sleepers :).

CCP Dropbear

Posted - 2011.07.13 01:14:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Auwnie Morohe
Question for the Lore team
Does the Sleeper story need to have an particular event happen before a certain time(30-11-11?) that is supposed to be player driven?


"The Sleeper Story" is larger than any one thing, be it an entire expansion (Apocrypha) or a novel (Templar One). I'm assuming that's what you're referring to there? There's overlap and great potential for crossovers to be explored down the line when it comes to events, but they are running somewhat independently of one another in a sense as well. If, perhaps, you're concerned that past a certain date, the story "ends" or something like that, then don't be.

I didn't specifically answer your question, I realize, it's because I don't want to elaborate too much about upcoming stuff.

Quote:
How much hand holding is there going to be?


I'm assuming hand holding means overt hinting towards things of importance, and similar actions. The answer is: as very little as possible. The aim, as always, is to keep things organically evolving and plausible. As evidenced by the breadth of information and analyses on it, the Sleeper story is vast and has many starting points and avenues of research. In that kind of situation, hand-holding isn't really necessary, as there are many right answers and good paths to walk.

As we've now taken "the plunge" and characters from chronicles are literally leaping off the pages and into action, I don't want to elaborate too much here; out of game and out of setting. Hopefully that answer meets some of your concern there.

Quote:
How much of the Sleeper mystery will be revealed through, or with help of actors?


Let me take a stab here and answer what I think is the subtext, and the reason behind your "bad feeling". In many areas, player input still trumps ours when it comes to the development of the storyline. All the work done so far hasn't suddenly become irrelevant because right around the corner an NPC is going to reveal some grand truth that nobody had no way of knowing. All that work now takes on a new meaning and importance, if anything.

In that respect, Tukoss is more of a secretary than a Guru, if that makes sense (and keep in mind that in the background there is going to be a ongoing battle against perceptions otherwise). In another sense, he's also a megaphone to place player content out there on centre stage, (and, seriously, holy ****, there's so much good player content to work with). Again, I dont want to speak too in-depth about these things. Just enough, I hope, to clarify.

All that said, the storyline at large is evolving at the same time these things are going on. That means some cues coming from us (like scientists defecting, and longer-term on a grander scale, novels with new developments). Where possible though, we place that in the hands of players, or allow them to influence it somehow (in what is hopefully a meaningful point of interaction).

And lastly, the Sansha events were an experiment. So is this new stuff. The Sansha events really grew and changed based on player input and influence. The aim and the hope here is to evolve the Sleeper events in a similar way.

CCP Dropbear

Posted - 2011.07.13 01:16:00 - [4]
 

Oh, and Headfirst is finishing up a blog as well, to officially kick things off on both fronts. Keep an eye out for that. Smile

LOL56
First Flying Wing Inc
ROMANIAN-LEGION
Posted - 2011.07.13 04:14:00 - [5]
 

Dropbear, have i ever told you i love you?

Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2011.07.13 08:09:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Jowen Datloran on 13/07/2011 08:11:16
And to the surprise of nobody I am getting a good feeling about this.

I was getting tired of the looping assumptions and speculation that nobody had any evidence/facts to support with. A lot of people do not even bother trying to provide them or look at the cracks in the theory. And, sorry, but it is not my idea of 'interactive storytelling' to have people ramble one "fantastic" explanation off after another in the vain hope that CCP has not decided upon the story yet and will pick up your version above the rest. And then claim you had it "figured out" before everybody else.

This event is in its early stage but already promising for letting people interact with the story in the game thereby allowing our characters knowledge we, as players, possess. No more endless pages of Wikipedia drivel that cannot be incorporated into the knowledge of New Eden denizens.

If nothing else, it at least encourage people to find the pathways that allow for their out-of-character knowledge to become in-character and for the knowledge to be shared.

Oh, and I might have one character that is in support of the project and another that could be possible out to sabotage it. Conflict of interest at its best.

Auwnie Morohe
Posted - 2011.07.13 09:10:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Auwnie Morohe on 13/07/2011 09:29:46
Thanks for the quick response Dropbear.

As one might have noticed I really like the Sleeper mystery. One reason is the difficulty. It is a mystery well suited for the harsh universe that is EVE because it does not, as far as I can see, let you to its secrets easily. Although some secrets should have been a lot easier gotten to than they seem to be.Cool And of cause I like to think solving difficult little bits of it says something about me. When things are made too easy or someone is pointing me where to dig, which you already do but not as literal as Mr tukos seems to do, the very reason for the mystery disappears. I might be one of few that feels this way though looking at the eagerness with which people jumped on Hilens boat.

Another reason I like the mystery is because of the true feeling of exploration. The Sleepers are as close as one can come to being actually in a ruin in a Mexican Jungle digging for ancient treasure without the mosquitoes giving you malaria. Again this sense of exploring the unknown does not work with someone pointing me where to look. And again I am probably one of the few that likes the empty unexplored space behind the clues since most people seem to see nothing there.

I guess I'll have to see where Mr Tukos will lead us. I'll be keeping a keen eye on him anyway.
o7


Auwnie Morohe
Posted - 2011.07.13 09:55:00 - [8]
 

Jowen, you assume there is nothing left to the Sleepers than forum theories. I can prove to you there is more, I won't though, sorry. The Man himself, in person, that was you right?, said there is more to find in and out of game but you refuse to believe.

What is a carefully crafted mystery worth if after a certain time it gets explained. All that does is tell you you lost.

Let it be known I have no problem with Arek'Jaalan. There are a lot of positive things that can be done with it. I am just a bit worried as to how far its influence will be.

I just hope CCP honor their motto.Cool

Quote:
A motto (Italian for pledge, sentence; plural: mottos or mottoes)[1][2] is a phrase meant to formally describe the general motivation or intention of a social group or organization. A motto may be in any language, but Latin is the most used. The local language is usual in the mottos of governments. In informal ways, it can be a rule or slogan someone follows, or lives their life by.


Mirabi Tiane
Posted - 2011.07.13 12:23:00 - [9]
 

I praise whomever is playing Tukoss: not only do they seem to be a good roleplayer, they also seem to be spending a lot of time and effort on all this. Very impressive.

Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2011.07.13 14:08:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Mirabi Tiane
I praise whomever is playing Tukoss: not only do they seem to be a good roleplayer, they also seem to be spending a lot of time and effort on all this. Very impressive.

Which makes me highly suspicious of a Dropbear being behind the facade. (Because he care).

Not that there is any point calling him out on that.

Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2011.07.13 14:31:00 - [11]
 

You know, Auwnie, I consider you the court jester in the best meaning of the word on this topic. Still, the "I know, I know, I KNOW, but it is a secret so I can't tell." act is getting a bit repetitive.

And indeed there is more knowledge on Sleepers out there, but maybe it has already been found. This new venture might exactly do what is needed to draw out this knowledge and put all the pieces together.

Hopefully we will see more of this by the end of it.


Myxx
Atropos Group
Posted - 2011.07.13 15:00:00 - [12]
 

I bet dropbear is really enjoying this event.

Esan Vartesa
East Khanid Trading
Khanid Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.07.13 19:04:00 - [13]
 

Have to agree with Jowen.

It's all well and good to claim that you've found something that nobody else has. It's also fine not to want to share it here... this is an OOC venue and many of us don't want to have stuff revealed here.

But to not reveal it in-character? Why in the world would you not help advance the story when you have the unique opportunity to do just that? That's strangely both selfish and self-defeating at the same time.


Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.07.13 20:07:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Auwnie Morohe
Jowen, you assume there is nothing left to the Sleepers than forum theories. I can prove to you there is more, I won't though, sorry.



The EVE fiction forums, summed up in two sentences.

Uncanny Valley
Posted - 2011.07.14 12:57:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Emperor Cheney

Originally by: Auwnie Morohe

Jowen, you assume there is nothing left to the Sleepers than forum theories. I can prove to you there is more, I won't though, sorry.


The EVE fiction forums, summed up in two sentences.


Agreed. Why even bother posting on the forums if you aren't willing to share something?

Auwnie Morohe
Posted - 2011.07.14 18:49:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Auwnie Morohe on 14/07/2011 18:52:24
I didnt say i am not willing to share. I say I have certain knowledge about the Sleeper mystery that I haven't seen posted about and that I found in game. Nor do I say I have all the answers, far from it. The reason I say I have knowledge that hasnt been posted about is to argue against the the point of view, held by about 99% of Sleeper interested, that there is nothing else to find and that all the forum theorizing does is help CCP write another chronicle.

What I also try to argue is that if you adopt a certain way of looking at the Sleeper mystery and at everything else for that matter you will be rewarded for it.

It is fun to scour the interwebs looking for clues and information about the world you live in whether they are EVE related of not.
Like the Paramore vid I linked a week ago. The butterfly on the cover of the "Brand new eyes" album is a Tiger Swallowtail (Papilio glaucus) The butterfly in ancient Greece is called Psyche which is the same as Soul. Even in ancient Mexico there is a god of fire that is a butterfly and the butterfly stood for the spirits of the deceased. And that is probably what Sansha does ripping off the wings of butterflies to buy him his immortal life. Or is it? It doesnt matter it is fun. The looking up of information not ripping the wings off of butterflies.

Yes I am a jester. Wait, what? My name is Yorick. Feed your head.Very Happy

You cant make this stuff up if you wanted too.
Quote:
Butterfly Trickster
In the Canadian Pacific northwest, the Haida depict Butterfly as the companion of Raven the Creator-Trickster, perhaps acknowledging the unpredictable and unreliable nature of "flights of fancy" and dreaming.


Alessandra Karris
Karris Family Research and Salvage
Posted - 2011.07.15 03:23:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: CCP Dropbear
All that said, the storyline at large is evolving at the same time these things are going on. That means some cues coming from us (like scientists defecting, and longer-term on a grander scale, novels with new developments). Where possible though, we place that in the hands of players, or allow them to influence it somehow (in what is hopefully a meaningful point of interaction).

Good luck.

Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.15 13:12:00 - [18]
 


Auwnie Morohe
Posted - 2011.07.15 15:17:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Wyke Mossari

Dropbear has been busy.

Wow, Seriously interesting.Cool

Nathan Jameson
Talocan Vanguard
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.07.15 16:09:00 - [20]
 

Being an Anoikis dweller, I felt envious and left-out during the Master's live-event return to New Eden.

I am thrilled, to say the least, that we might seem some of the same attention now on our home lands. Cool

Alain Kinsella
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.19 05:26:00 - [21]
 

Secretary eh? From what small activity I've seen 'politician' would fit better. :) First thing out the gate was to delegate responsibility to within the various groups.

It fits perfectly with what you're trying to do though, so +1 anyway. Good luck keeping that lot together though (and better luck to Verone if he ends up paying someone off Cool ).

As for myself, is there any (general) angle as to why a registered Trading channel was opened? Getting worried that the two well-known player channels wander around other subjects? Laughing

Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.19 08:10:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Alain Kinsella
Secretary eh? From what small activity I've seen 'politician' would fit better. :) First thing out the gate was to delegate responsibility to within the various groups.

It fits perfectly with what you're trying to do though, so +1 anyway. Good luck keeping that lot together though (and better luck to Verone if he ends up paying someone off Cool ).

As for myself, is there any (general) angle as to why a registered Trading channel was opened? Getting worried that the two well-known player channels wander around other subjects? Laughing



When it comes to Capsuleers I'm reminded of an old IT adage, I'd much rather be herding cats. I must applaud Dropbear's infinite patience.



Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.29 07:53:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 29/07/2011 17:37:24
I'm struggling to figure out the purpose of the Arek'jaalan? At first I thought I had it, it was part of the 'experiment in interactive storytelling', an aid to exploring the mysteries of EVE in a way that was able to overcome the limitation of game mechanics.

(Please Dropbear if I'm wrong about this just tell us, because I'm not the only person that thinks this is the point.)

However I don't think this is working.

As an example of were I think things are going wrong. The 'is she/isn't she' regarding Awakened Infomorph is beset with issues. A lot of people have jumped to the conclusion that she is a Sleeper and/or Lianda Burreau. However this conclusion has been reached on the flimsiest of IC evidence. As players we know AI is an Event Actor and will therefore turn out to something important but getting anybody to see sense IC is fraught with difficulty. The Antiquarian tried and it was good to see his scientific scepticism backed up, but If I'm right with my first paragraph we need to find a way to encourage that and curb the wilder speculation.

Now while as a player my personality means I quite happy to push my thoughts and ideas quite strongly in here, Wyke as an Intaki that would be quite OOC. However despite this I have seen my own forcefulness bleed over a little recently.

I'm also a little concerned it seems to have complete completely sucked the life out of this section.

The quite a few important NPC that don't have their names reserved, e.g. Silphy en Diabel, Santimona Sarpati, Damella Macaper, Misu Baniya, Tunai Moran and Ior Labron, and some like Gorda Hoje have seeming been 'squatted'. In the RAI we've seen some players pull off hoax's that extremely difficult to counter IC because they require meta-play, something I would hope we could avoid in RP.


-- edited for grammar & clarity --

Auwnie Morohe
Posted - 2011.07.29 11:16:00 - [24]
 

Quote:
I'm struggling to figure out what the purpose of the Arek'jaalan? At first I thought I had it, it was part of the 'experiment in interactive storytelling', an aid to exploring the mysteries of EVE in a way that was able to overcome the limitation of game mechanics.

I think it is becoming quite clear. It is a basic framework for collecting and understanding the Sleeper mystery and not much more, as some hoped and I initially feared. As I have often said I suspect most of the pieces to understand the Sleepers are already there just not understood. Arek'jaalan is an attempt at facilitating understanding the Sleepers storyline which only entails understanding them.

I think a big part of the problem with Arek'jaalan is the nature of the mystery, fictional science. Another problem is the types of people interested in the mystery which is a reflection of the first problem. There is the fiction people(RPers) and there are the science people. I think it is very clear who is who since their way of approaching the mystery is so very different.

The fictional science tries to merge these two very different peoples. I am happy enough to rp in local during a live event if the need arises but every time I hear someone say, maybe we can rp our way through this, or if someone seems to have done this I take another step back. As a sciency person I dont like it because it feels like cheating. This was very much part of my initial fear that the Arek'jaalan solutions were going to be rp rather than science even though I think in case of the Sleepers they are science.

The last problem with fictional science is that it isnt science and the two do not merge even though one might think otherwise in a world of virtual spaceships. I might be wrong but this is where the science people could run into a dead end(pun intended). In this mystery one is so often steered towards modern science and ideas it is only natural to extrapolate those lines as one would if one were doing real research. The problem is the lines of the story probably take a 90 degree angle when the matter reaches the bounds of the science into the world of the imagination. This leap even if it is not as big as 90 degrees still is a very big leap and maybe too big to take for people that like things to be scientifically true. Of cause the fictional people would be right at home in the fiction but as one can see in the forum threads they dropped out long before they ever got out of the science.

And that is where I think we are a couple of sciency people that have a whole lot of knowledge without the ability to take the leap back into fiction and whole lot of clueless fictiony people that are quite happy RPing their brains out.Razz

FYI Trinary data + Awakened Infomorph = Hilens girlfriendCool

Chevalleis
The Legendary Conquest
Posted - 2011.07.29 12:15:00 - [25]
 

Trinary Data + Awakened Infomorph + bad-ass rogue drone + Sansha Kuvakei = A jovian megalomaniac infomorph with bug-like limbs. It all makes sense now. Soon we will have to withstand te attack of the horrible bug-limbed megasansha!

Roga Dracor
Caldari
Mental Disorders Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.29 16:29:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Roga Dracor on 29/07/2011 16:31:01
The biggest thing I see from the fiction oriented people is that they want to avoid cliche, unfortunately, most of science fiction is overrun with cliche. I don't care how CCP chooses to resolve it's fictional dilemma, it will involve cliches..

Emergent ideologies is what they are hoping for, but are we the players savvy enough to develop them? I wonder if the players will accept a measure of cliche to resolve the issues that they bring up? Arcane Science has been used in Eve repeatedly to explain deviations from "current" scientific theory. This is NOT Berkley. Razz

The problem is, we humans have created so much speculative fiction that no matter what direction the fiction takes, it is likely to have been explored in some other medium. That is where Semiotics comes in. Symbolism evokes static thought patterns that are tied into the primal identity of human beings. These symbols carry over to every human being no matter the national origin, language, or societal cues. There simply isn't that much "original" left to explore..

Myyona
Minmatar
Ataraxia Pharmacies
Posted - 2011.07.29 16:37:00 - [27]
 

Ah, 'fictional science', nice to put a word on what I like to do in EVE at the moment.

I picked up the lead of the Ancient Races branch of the research project and think we already have presented some interesting discussions and have more coming very soon. I picked that branch because it appeared to be one with least interest. I see now that Talocan History perhaps would have been better to boost.

Now, when I no longer work at the university it is actually funny to do a bit of (pseudo) science again in my spare time. I also enjoy a bit of role playing as long I do not have to make long talks or speeches, so I hope I for one can pull this 'fictional science' off.
Not saying other participants of Arek'jaalan cannot; in fact I hope all of the project branches has as much cooking as AR and this event will be long and successful.

Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.29 17:28:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 29/07/2011 17:39:38

It would be true to say that my interest in quite strongly tilted towards what used to be called Hard Science Fiction, ala Asimov, Anderson, Clarke et.al.

However, don't get me wrong this don't make me anti-RP, I have played a lot of different game styles and genre over the years and I have a lot of respect for the differing skills of many IGS regulars which I regularly read even though I don't post there much. I can enjoy the general mystery and science fantasy genre and some aspect of the bigger EVE mystery do seem to fall well within the later.

It might help to state how I see the lay of the land,

There is the pure RP mostly handled in IGS and their own channels, the focus is mostly on character development and interesting stories. That overlaps quite strongly with RP PvP of PIE, U'K, ILF, Jericho and others which is often played out through War-Dec, FW and low-sec mechanics. There is SYNE who's focus is live events. I see them all catering to slightly different audiences with different styles, but obviously a lot of overlap.

I suppose allegory might help here, I see IGS as like the narrative RP games that emphasise storyline MERP/Rune Quest/Masquerade; the FW RP as like Warhammer or Star Fleet Battles; I see SYNE/Live events mostly like the tradition dungeon bash games like AD&D.

That leaves Arek'jaalan, where does that fit it ? My feeling is it should fit into the as yet under serviced category, the investigative games, Call of Cthulhu, Shadow Run, Aftermath. The focus should be investigative, but that doesn't mean entirely scientific analysis, I think quite a lot of this could and should be played out in game.

--edit--
Yes I realise there is a lot of overlap in those games and the Eve groups, I'm really talking about the central focus of the game style.

CCP Dropbear

Posted - 2011.07.29 23:21:00 - [29]
 

Hey guys,

I'm currently sitting in the Paris at Vegas, and I'm functioning on 2hrs sleep, so a proper reply will probably have to come later, most likely Monday, when I'm back.

I've been quite busy the last few days preparing a presentation for EVE Vegas on live events. Somewhat amusing that events have suffered as a result, and somewhat frustrating, too. A humble request here, to bear with us a few more days, and try not to kill each other (too much) in the meantime.

Anyways, putting this presentation together has sort of helped crystallize a bunch of things, and once I make it throigh this weekend, I intend to not only answewr the latest questions here, but speak more broadly about the big picture driving these events, and what we hope to see from them.

Much luv,

Rhavas
Minmatar
The Corporation of Noble Sentiments
Posted - 2011.07.30 17:31:00 - [30]
 

Just make sure you post that presentation somewhere, Dropbear! :)

Have fun in Sin City.

PS Last night's invasion was fun, the rest of the content team held their own even with you out of town. Damn those capsuleer Sansha logis...


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