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ApexJB
Posted - 2011.07.12 23:26:00 - [1]
 

"CCP talked about removing ABC (Arkonor, Bistot and Crokite) mining sites from wormhole space at some point in the future. This may be from all wormholes, or possibly from lower class wormholes only. It was claimed by some members of the CSM that a large fraction of the high end ore supply is produced through these sites, however the CSMs who were active in the wormholes would not accept this claim without hard data to back it up."

And then again on Page 29, paragraphs 3 and 4:

"Based on comments by CCP Greyscale in a previous session, the subject of removing "ABC" minerals from wormholes was raised by nullsec-resident CSMs, who were surprised to learn that WH space was nullsec and that ABC minerals were available in them. They favored entirely removing ABC from WH space -- or limiting them to C5 and C6 holes -- but the two wormhole-resident CSMs objected strongly, pointing out that exporting minerals from deep wormhole space was difficult, and much of it was likely consumed locally.

An argument was made by some CSMs that the prices of ABC ores and refined products were being crashed by "daytrippers" mining in easily-accessible wormhole space; other CSMs stated that no nerfing of ABC minerals should take place without first obtaining detailed statistics about the balance of trade for each mineral and class of wormhole."

And once more on Page 31, the last paragraph:

"The CSM, with the exception of two members, is irked at the idea of high value ores being mined in low-end wormholes distorting the market. CCP Zulu mentioned that he considers this ‘******ed’ and that this will be looked into. In Class 5 or 6 wormholes the position is more nuanced, and the CSM acknowledged that these minerals could be used for local production, and that they are too far from the market to distort it."


I think my only real response to this is "WTF! SERIOUSLY?". Although its comforting to see the null-sec CSM members (who are apparently completely ignorant of whs) are actively trying to ensure no lowly non-null sec residents cut in on their profit margins.

Harold Tuphlos
Posted - 2011.07.13 00:27:00 - [2]
 

High end ore in wormholes is an issue that is complicated not just by wh class but also by location. Location is the bigger of the two issues, though the spawn rate of grav sites also comes into play. The potential issue holes are higher class, static highsec, with high rates of grav sites spawning.

It is certainly true that wormholes can produce massive amounts of ore, but in most cases the transportation difficulties make it extremely suboptimal to mine all of it, as after the 17th time you jump through a connecting wh in a industrial to move ore out to high sec, it starts to get old. The holes with static highsecs avoid the issue as they can move the ore at any time that they control the wh. (usually)

The classes of wormholes are already fairly balanced in term of what you can get out of them, any real issue that might be there is going to be connected to having a hidden nullsec system IN highsec space.

Korvin
Gallente
Shadow Kingdom
Best Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.13 11:42:00 - [3]
 

I blame drone regions. Rolling Eyes

Large amount of ore in WH, lol.

They mine it in anomalies, like lowsec and even highsec pilots does, OMG! Large amounts!

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.07.13 14:29:00 - [4]
 

Are they actually stupid enough to think that the occasional sporadic grav site with limited amounts of non-regenerating ABC ores in wormhole space, where transport is greatly limited not only by the mass of the ores but the mass of the wormholes themselves, is having even the slightest dent in mineral prices? You have these null-sec mining bots going nearly 24/7 out there and they actually think what we get in holes matters in relation?

For the most part, when we have a grav appear, we mine, process and use the vast majority of the minerals in the hole itself. It's not cost effective to be shipping the ores to empire, and processing in the hole already has a 25% penalty at the least, plus a very limited supply. Holes can go for weeks without a grav site appearing to mine. We also don't have the "bonus" style asteroids with the bonus mineral amounts in them... it's plain arkonor, bistot, etc.

Now, if they gave wormholes moon goo in exchange for reducing the number of gravs, that would be interesting.

Considering wormhole is the true null sec, you'd think those null carebears with their infinite roid belts, jump bridges and all that would be happy to straighten their skirts and enjoy the grotesque mining advantages they already have.

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2011.07.13 17:22:00 - [5]
 

The more heated the opposition is to removing ABCs from the low end WHs, the more I am for the removal. If it was only a rare thing that wasn't aggressively sought out, few people shouldn have a problem with them being removed. Now, granted, the C5, C6 WHs are a whole different animal, and they have a right to be angry about the removal of minerals which are a giant pain to obtain otherwise. Plus, those systems are more on par with the risks of null sec mining than other WHs.

Ya Huei
Imperial Collective
Posted - 2011.07.13 19:19:00 - [6]
 

It's nonsense,

grav sites don't spawn that often, nor do most corps haul the ore back to highsec because its a big pain in the arse logisticswise.

The exception is offcourse systems with direct highsec or lowsec statics.


Ronin Nazuri
Posted - 2011.07.13 21:13:00 - [7]
 

Even more of a laugh was this out the notes: "The CSM brought up Superveld and the need for high-yield low-end asteroids in nullsec to remove the need to compress and import everything from hisec. CCP Greyscale was cautiously in favor of this, depending upon what the statistics might show"

Is the CSM turning into a self-serving bunch of Null sec alliance carebears?

ApexJB
Posted - 2011.07.13 22:54:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Bagehi
The more heated the opposition is to removing ABCs from the low end WHs, the more I am for the removal. If it was only a rare thing that wasn't aggressively sought out, few people shouldn have a problem with them being removed.
So you are saying that if people are against its removal, you are for it. And if people are not against the removal, you are still for it....

Quote:
Now, granted, the C5, C6 WHs are a whole different animal, and they have a right to be angry about the removal of minerals which are a giant pain to obtain otherwise.
Um, That is kind of the point of living in a C5 or C6 (and C4 too).

Quote:
Plus, those systems are more on par with the risks of null sec mining than other WHs.

No, they are not. You are more likely to be killed mining in the lower class whs (1,2,3) as they routinely have connections to k-space generating a higher amount of visitors.

Null sec already has moon goo all to itself, which is much more profitable than mining will ever be. Having ABC in whs does nothing to hurt the game and only adds to it by adding variety.

Dolm De'Mourne
Posted - 2011.07.13 23:45:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Dolm De''Mourne on 14/07/2011 02:18:41
Originally by: Bagehi
The more heated the opposition is to removing ABCs from the low end WHs, the more I am for the removal. If it was only a rare thing that wasn't aggressively sought out, few people shouldn have a problem with them being removed. Now, granted, the C5, C6 WHs are a whole different animal, and they have a right to be angry about the removal of minerals which are a giant pain to obtain otherwise. Plus, those systems are more on par with the risks of null sec mining than other WHs.



Considering the response to things like the anom and JB nerfs, the response here is extremely tame, but even if it weren't, ignoring the actual facts associated with the issue and judging it based on player rage seems a bit off.

As people still live in even C3-4 WH's, there are obvious implications about removing them for those groups. These would most likely be smaller groups less equipped for complicated logistics.

The idea is further complicated by the fact that the CSM's suggested that they be made MORE self sufficient. This really doesn't add up to anything other than a punishment of WH dwellers when we look at the facts:

No local (which means no instant intel or warning).
No Ice (could be wrong here, please tell me if I am).
Belts are only found in sigs.
Mass limitations prevent large scale ops in low class WH's.
Ease of access for "daytrippers" provides greater danger due to equal ease of access for pirates.
Pirates themselves would also loose targets due to decreased activity in low end holes.
For those that do live in WH's supply can be less than consumption at times as is.

The only one area in the game that could benefit from changing WH's is null, which has significant advantages over WH space in terms of mineral production as is. The hypocrisy of the null representatives in suggesting that they deserve to be more self sufficient in their chosen area of the game while decreasing the ability of others to do the same is somewhat deserving of rage IMHO.

I'd be very interested to hear more of the CSM/CCP reasoning for their desire to make this change.

Edited for misspelling.

ApexJB
Posted - 2011.07.14 00:56:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Dolm De'Mourne
Edited by: Dolm De''Mourne on 13/07/2011 23:53:19
Edited by: Dolm De''Mourne on 13/07/2011 23:46:31

Considering the response to things like the anom and JB nerfs, the response here is extremely tame, but even if it weren't, ignoring the actual facts associated with the issue and judging it based on player rage seems a bit off.

Considering people still live in even C3-4 WH's, there are obvious implications about removing them for those groups. Considering that these would most likely be smaller groups less equipped for complicated logistics.

The idea is further complicated by the fact that the CSM's suggested that they be made MORE self sufficient. This really doesn't add up to anything other than a punishment of WH dwellers when we look at the facts:

No local (which means no instant intel or warning).
No Ice (could be wrong here, please tell me if I am).
Belts are only found in sigs.
Mass limitations prevent large scale ops in low class WH's.
Ease of access for "daytrippers" provides greater danger due to equal ease of access for pirates.
Pirates themselves would also loose targets due to decreased activity in low and holes.
For those that do live in WH's supply can be less than consumption at times as is.

The only one area in the game that could benefit from changing WH's is null, which has significant advantages over WH space in terms of mineral production as is. The hypocrisy of the null representatives in suggesting that they deserve to be more self sufficient in their chosen area of the game while decreasing the ability of others to do the same is somewhat deserving of rage IMHO.

I'd be very interested to hear more of the CSM/CCP reasoning for their desire to make this change.

^^^This, and more of this.

Tas Nok
Posted - 2011.07.14 08:49:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Tas Nok on 14/07/2011 08:51:27
Originally by: Dolm De'Mourne

No local (which means no instant intel or warning). **CHECK
No Ice (could be wrong here, please tell me if I am). **CHECK
Belts are only found in sigs. **They, also only last a limited number of days, then are gone, no permanent belts
Mass limitations prevent large scale ops in low class WH's. **Mass limits all WH space, just that larger WH 'could' accommodate 1-2 freighter runs
Ease of access for "daytrippers" provides greater danger due to equal ease of access for pirates. **CHECK
Pirates themselves would also loose targets due to decreased activity in low end holes. **questionable, smaller corps may still enjoy them
For those that do live in WH's supply can be less than consumption at times as is. **CHECK

The only one area in the game that could benefit from changing WH's is null, which has significant advantages over WH space in terms of mineral production as is. The hypocrisy of the null representatives in suggesting that they deserve to be more self sufficient in their chosen area of the game while decreasing the ability of others to do the same is somewhat deserving of rage IMHO.

I'd be very interested to hear more of the CSM/CCP reasoning for their desire to make this change.


That was the part that I really didn't understand, CCP brought it up and the uninformed CSM raged as if HS carebears were in WH mining ABC ores unmolested, but in all of the tidbits in the minutes I saw no reasons for this nerf. I would gladly accept this nerf if WH can also become a bit more self sustaining, but that means adding ICE, grav sites or comets w/ice.

Previous posters have stated the pain of logistics in moving ore, wow, that's an understatement, I need to bring in everything, from fuel, ammo and spare mods and ships and take out everything if I plan on refueling... Ore is not cost effective in this, sleeper tags, sleeper salvage are. Also, for wh residents in C5-C6 WH space they are NOT there for the ore... Sleepers and Gas for T3's, but ore? yeah... I've never run across a hulk in anything higher than a C4.

One caveat, I have run across a couple large operations in C2 holes that use a rorqual which significantly eases the logistics pain of moving ore, these are the only operations that will be crushed by this, since they made the investment in that ship and it is stuck there... for the rest of us... it'd be just another nerf/headache of living without a market or a reliable exit.

Argus Kell
Gallente
Lost Enterprises...
SOLAR WING
Posted - 2011.07.14 10:55:00 - [12]
 

I once or twice ventured into a WH connected directly to High Sec. I now live in nullsec as a miner/industrialist. Tbh the nerf is totally unnecessary. There is more risk of someone blowing up your Hulk in a WH than in nullsec because pirates go into WHs often specifically looking for the easy ganks associated with them. What I don’t like about this nerf is they make out that WHs in high sec are like High Sec but as everyone knows, they’re not, they’re equivalent to nullsec.

Next they’ll be suggesting that all the ABC ore in a nullsec region vanish when a high sec area gets directly connected to it via a WH.

Of all the changes that could be made, this seems like such a pointless, unnecessary change which just makes the game more linear. I like the variety of options and associated risks. Saying “ABC ore only in nullsec”, “sleepers only in WH”, etc. just boils the game down too much. It’d be no more fun or challenging than boiling the game down to three ships “combat ship”, “industrial ship”, “mining ship”.

D'Leh Mannuck
Posted - 2011.07.14 13:14:00 - [13]
 

And yet again proof howfar the current CSM has grown away from the average player who doesn't see null sec as the endgame.
The whole removal of ABC ores from WH space is utterly ******ed and only get's an approval by Mitanni and cronies cause every penny they can't make on a certain thing needs to be nerfed so they can get more.

Every ABC you can't mine in WH means less competition for the nullsec residents. They already managed to bring faction drops in hi sec to a virtual halt and also to bring droprate of mods in missions down a few notches.

For high end minerals they want you to be as dependable as possible of null sec. Not to mention the moon goo story.

The whole issue at hand is that the major part of the community which lives in high sec isn't as vocal as the null sec dwellers, which makes (mis)representation for them a lot easier.

I personally feel we have to find a few very good strong candidates for high sec and get some real blockvoting going for the next elections.
Then you will see a whole other sort of blockvoting from null sec.


Phantom Slave
Universal Pest Exterminators
Posted - 2011.07.14 18:30:00 - [14]
 

Just to play devils advocate, why not take them out? Most of the people I see worrying about them going away also say in the same paragraph that its hard to get out of there and not worth it. If its so hard to get out and so logistical intensive then why worry about it going away?

Again, I'm not trying to start an argument, just confused.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.07.14 19:51:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Phantom Slave
Just to play devils advocate, why not take them out? Most of the people I see worrying about them going away also say in the same paragraph that its hard to get out of there and not worth it. If its so hard to get out and so logistical intensive then why worry about it going away?

Again, I'm not trying to start an argument, just confused.


It's as challenging to bring materials into the hole as it is to bring them out. The minerals obtained are mostly used within the hole. There's something just wrong with requiring hole residents to be reliant on null-bunnies for the materials we need to survive in more challenging space.

Phantom Slave
Universal Pest Exterminators
Posted - 2011.07.14 23:43:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Ingvar Angst
It's as challenging to bring materials into the hole as it is to bring them out. The minerals obtained are mostly used within the hole. There's something just wrong with requiring hole residents to be reliant on null-bunnies for the materials we need to survive in more challenging space.


Well that makes a lot more sense. Thanks for the clarification.

Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2011.07.15 09:48:00 - [17]
 

Mittani has already stated, this is to manipulate the market and allow 0.0 control over the prices of high end minerals, ofc since him and his crappy coalition are burning I cant see how this will benefit him.

Tuggboat
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.16 13:56:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Tuggboat on 16/07/2011 14:01:14
First we have to consider all who are affected, we're getting close. Is there even any truth, we don't know. CCP could pull mega reserves and compare them to sell orders. Mega was the only one I recalled that dropped after wormholes. I bet there is a reserve not responding to new market pressures cause people overmine it cause of greed. Even if the reserves are in balance. It was good to loosen the null stranglehold. Besides price, the out of region logistics complicated t1 in similar ways to t2. Its nice to have highends dropped in empire from small WH operations.

Because I like the effect of null not having a stranglehold on highends, I do not support this initiative.

Beyond t1 convenience, t3 would have to rise to compensate. Its too expensive as it is, a cruiser over a carrier price? lots of times yeah.

There is a process going on, the situation is not static so it does not require a nudge. IF things aren't stalled, the market can do the work. Mineral price was balanced by lower demand from the introduction of LAg and the balance they did in the drone regions. They have stimulated demand with sov changes and work on lag. THe prices are just starting to rebalance in the opposite manner than they balanced. It looks smooth to me so there must be reserves people are itching to sell.

Some people have lost moongoo income, others have taken space and not utilizing it yet. NO outside rebalancing should be applied at this time.

Roosterton
Eternal Frontier
Posted - 2011.07.17 01:38:00 - [19]
 

You can't bring a Hulk into low-end wormholes.

You can't refine very efficiently at a POS.

You don't have a local, so botters can't exploit the system to just warp away when someone enters system.

Hell, actual players can't just warp away when someone enters system.

It's more difficult to ship ore in and out of wormholes (You need to worry about industrials not going over the weight limit as they jump in and out repeatedly, unlike 0.0 alliances which just pile everything onto a carrier and jump it to wherever they need it.)

Low-class wormholes have insignificant amounts of the ABC ores, claiming that it's destabilizing the industry is ignorant.

Wormholes don't have mercoxit. (AFAIK)

Wormholes don't have moon mining.

Wormholes don't have ice mining.

So tell me why the bloody hell people want to nerf that?

Elaine Solarheart
Posted - 2011.07.17 04:17:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Elaine Solarheart on 17/07/2011 10:18:10
My corp will be directly affected by any such change. As a tiny mining corp (+/- 15 players, ~5-8 fulltime residents) living in a C2 wormhole, we see a grav site approximately once per fortnight. We have 3 people who can mine at ALL, the rest being combat site runners/security. Our wormhole has statics to both C4 WH, and hisec. Sounds like a perfect moneymaker, right?

Here's the reality:

Every day, the first one to log in scans down everything, and updates the bookmarks in the can at the POS. This takes about 15 minutes or so, on average. If there are any wormhole sigs besides our statics, we go look them over, and compare with DotLan (which is usually checked BEFORE we even log in). Let's say we have a "lucky" day, and find a grav belt, along with 2 combat sites, maybe a lowend ladar site, our 2 statics, and a 3rd wormhole (K162 to Anywhere).

Job 1 is to go visit that K162 and gather intel about who/what is in it. With 4 players, we won't be touching that grav until we feel we've minimised the risk to the Hulks. JUST LIKE ANY OTHER 0.0 SYSTEM, except we have NO intel channel, NO alliance to call on, and NO instant local to warn us. To continue: We find where the K162 leads to, and run a "box recon" of the system, in order to establish who lives there, active ships, etc. This includes going on grid to all POS's, many of which have bubbles nearby to trap and decloak the unwary (using cans, drones, etc.) Even if all this is done well, and safely, there's no guarantee the intel will be current 5 minutes after we jump back to our system. The person who did all this might STILL be alone (others not logged in yet for the day), and therefor has to sit by that hole and watch it pretty much until another corpy logs in. Let's say we get lucky, and this happens within the next 10 minutes or so (no guarantee, out of the usual suspects, 1 is from NY, one from Australia, 1 from Malaysia, etc.). Anyways, someone logs in, and a decision is made, based on the previous intel, to crush the hole, in order to provide one less potential threat to the Hulks. This, if done quickly, and successfully, with an Orca, can take nearly half an hour. It'll require the covops to sit on the OTHER side to scan for ships during that time, and leaves the Orca wide open to attack in OUR system. But again, let's pretend luck is on our side, and we do this successfully. Everyone is home safely, and the hole no longer exists.

Now we have to worry that whoever scanned in probably mapped our system and warped to both statics. So we have 2 more "holes to plug". Both guys get into covops, and each goes to one of the static holes to run intel checks. We see our static hisec takes us to within 5 jumps of a major trade hub, and there are 44 people in local, no probes on scan at this time. The C4 is occupied by something nasty (say a corp with 3-4 POS's, tonnes of ships out, etc.) The corpy in there has to visit and confirm that all ships are accounted for in POS shields, empty (since we can't reasonably jump an Orca into it without knowing this). Now we have to decide, based on intel, which hole to crush first. Let's say we pick the hisec, since the Orca will be safe on the hisec side, at least. The guy in the C4 has to stay there, near the hole to our system, to prevent the Orca from being bushwhacked from there. The Orca is on its own to crush the hisec static. One more time, let's assume we get lucky, and this goes without a hitch. 1/2 an hour later, the hole is crushed. The Orca driver swaps to a covops, and scans down the new hisec static, but does not warp to the sig, sealing it off.

Now we have to deal with the C4 static. Even if we are extremely lucky (and at this point, we should be buying lotto tickets, amirite?), crushing that will (again) take another half an hour. the first corpy in covops scans out the new C4 Static and "seals", updates the POS can, and we finally feel safe enough to THINK about mining our o-so-precious belt. (continued)

Elaine Solarheart
Posted - 2011.07.17 04:19:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Elaine Solarheart on 17/07/2011 04:50:10
(continued) We go to it first in a drake to wait for the sleeper spawn, pop them, and loot/salvage the wrecks (waste not, want not). Of course, we had to wait 10-15 minutes for them to spawn, 5 to kill, 5-10 to loot/salvage. But we're feeling LUCKY, becuse 2.5 hours after the first guy logged in, we can actually get ready to mine............with 2 players. OK, let's get lucky again, and 2 more log in, in the nick of time. Gotta give them a few minutes to update their bookmarks, and give them the scoop on what's been done. One driver in the Orca, 2 in Hulks, and our first guy in a hauler. LET'S MINE!

We get to the belt, to find its an "Average Deposit", our most common. Here's what it looks like:

http://eve-wormholes.blogspot.com/2009/12/average-frontier-deposit.html


Spread across a 200 km belt (3 ark, 3 Bistot, 20 Crokite, etc).

This grav will keep us busy for 3 days or so, if we mine for 4-5 hours a night. And thats ok, because in 5 days, its gone (MAX). At any time while we are mining, someone may scan in, so we need to be spamming the Dscan button every time we breathe. And every day, we'll have to repeat the above procedures in one way or another. We won't always be so lucky. Sometimes we'll have to fight off attackers, or chase covops out before they warp to everything they can, or we lose a Hulk, etc. ALL THIS, for 568 MILLION ISK! (assuming we get everything), and we haven't even got it to hisec to refine!

None of this takes into account that we can't moon mine, can't ice mine, can't refit subs in a T3 at a POS, so we're forced to get our logistics done through hisec.


So why do we do it? Because............its what we do. We mine. In the most exciting way we can. Because in this sandbox, even ants like us have brains, and enjoy the cut and thrust of outsmarting your enemies and having an impact on the game. We got no gravs? We clean out the combat sites, we mine the gas, codebreak the Radars, analyze the Magnetometrics; we go visit our neighbors for a bit of gunboat diplomacy. Every person out here can scan, can fight, can and are forced to think on their own, set traps, socially engineer the removal of larger warparties. We make T3 so you "professionals" can afford them. We live a hard life, but an enjoyable one.


And you are even THINKING about taking out the ABC? No +5 or 10% for us already, the most dangerous place to have to make a quid. 0.0 k-space should have it so hard. The amount of bull**** you people push should be sold for aur. You should be THANKING us, not nerfing us.

PLEASE RETHINK WHAT YOU ARE DOING.

Talocan Astronomy
Posted - 2011.07.17 04:35:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Talocan Astronomy on 17/07/2011 04:46:55
I think the real point is nullsec residents just feel dirty using ore they know hasnt been botted... must be some kind of itis they get out there....

remove local and see how much ore gets mined in null....

also id like to see the prices on your precious needed t3s once you *$(% your suppliers.

Elaine Solarheart
Posted - 2011.07.17 04:47:00 - [23]
 

Just a quick little something I forgot to add in my last wall of text. Ever consider what we'll do, if these changes get pushed through? I'll tell you.

We'll just stop mining, and go farm our C4 for tags and salvage. That's right! We'll go next door, and pull isk out of NOWHERE, so we can help add to the inflationary pressure in New Eden. You take out a player driven thing, and you replace it with a faucet.

Just watch it happen. All, so a few Prima Donnas and their BOTS (myriad), can force hisec players to pay more for everything. It won't affect us monetarily, we'll make billions more than we are now. If only we were in it for the money..........right?


Tas Nok
Posted - 2011.07.17 06:06:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Roosterton
You can't bring a Hulk into low-end wormholes. *CHECK (but you can build one inside)

Low-class wormholes have insignificant amounts of the ABC ores, claiming that it's destabilizing the industry is ignorant. ** CHECK

Wormholes don't have mercoxit. (AFAIK) ** NOPE.. Merc is very rare but I've seen it pop up about once a month, not sure which class WH, its been a very long time

Wormholes don't have moon mining. **CHECK (if we DID, then I could see the null-wabbits having a rage moment)

Wormholes don't have ice mining. **CHECK (biggest pain out here)

So tell me why the bloody hell people want to nerf that?

As Elaine Solarheart stated, if you don't want to get ganked, or fail repeatedly, you need to be uber-cautious about all the sigs and you need to take the time to find/scout them and reliably know their status. Anyone can mine or rat without doing this, and occasionally get a way just fine, but the squad of T3's in the WH you failed to scan down is just waiting for you to go to the next anom, because they're waiting for the hictor pilot or their cov-ops scout to re-ship, not having situational awareness leads to losses.

Back to topic, the MAJORITY of WH will not be adversely affected if ABC ores are removed, but it will raise the inconvenience level and as stated above expect T3 prices to rise since we would need to import more ore/parts/ships when we could have just mined locally and built locally. On that note... I would suggest an interesting trade... the 1st WH only POS mod (otherwise it'll end up all over Null) a structure that compresses ore like a rorq, and does nothing else... for that mod I would actually get back to mining more since the compression takes the pain out of the logistics... I think losing ABC ores would be worth that.

Carebears=HS mission runners
Null Rabbits=0.0 bots
Yarr=LS ghetto dwellers
Cave dwellers=WH addicts


Dodgy Past
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Posted - 2011.07.17 09:55:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Dodgy Past on 17/07/2011 10:04:06
MP3 of CSM fireside chat

2nd one, 22 minutes in for what the CSM had to say about this issue.

Xipheas
Evolving Strategies
Posted - 2011.07.17 18:06:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Elaine Solarheart
So much sense


So true.

Jaigar
Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe
Transmission Lost
Posted - 2011.07.17 21:52:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Jaigar on 17/07/2011 21:52:27
Originally by: Dodgy Past
Edited by: Dodgy Past on 17/07/2011 10:04:06
MP3 of CSM fireside chat

2nd one, 22 minutes in for what the CSM had to say about this issue.


Wow, and I will quote (who I think is Mittani).
Quote:


I'll go ahead and like jump on this grenade cause theres a bunch of angry wormholers who are all ****ed off about it I don't give a ****. Basicly its stupid that you can mine Arkanor 2 jumps from Jita through a wormhole and low risk in my opinion. Uh, on the other hand, you should probably stop panicing because I think in the sucking chest wounds of EVE Online, uh, ABCs in wormholes are stupid for um class 1 through class 4. Class 5 and 6 is fine cause they're going to be more removed from empire. I think its dumb that you can have some guy in a hulk from Jita pop in with relatively low risk into a C1 whatever and get ABC, when ABC is typically something, uh, reserved for extremely dangerous space far from empire. Uh, and we think that its important to make mining a valuable uh profession again particularly with high end ores because their prices crash. I started out mining as a newbie in Syndicate uh getting Crokite and we would all have big mining ops together. Nobody bothers with it anymore except for bots because the prices crash so much. Um, but yeah, I think its dumb that theres ABCs in wormholes, but its not the first order of business on my political agenda. I'm a little bit more focused on things like supercap balance... So don't worry your pretty little heads.


Complete ignorance and the only arguement he throws is low risk. And whats more low risk than mining in null-sec?

Roosterton
Eternal Frontier
Posted - 2011.07.17 22:01:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Roosterton on 18/07/2011 02:42:03
Quote:
Basicly its stupid that you can mine Arkonor 2 jumps from Jita through a wormhole and low risk in my opinion.


How is mining in a foreign, ever-changing system with no local any less risky than mining from the heart of a big blue blob of happy NAP space in nullsec?

Quote:
Uh, on the other hand, you should probably stop panicing because I think in the sucking chest wounds of EVE Online, uh, ABCs in wormholes are stupid for um class 1 through class 4. Class 5 and 6 is fine cause they're going to be more removed from empire.


If anything, class 1/2 are more risky since they're all connected with highsec and are frequently roamed, while 5/6 are deeper and you'll have less gankers going in there for easy kills. Learn 2 wormholes.

Quote:
I think its dumb that you can have some guy in a hulk from Jita pop in with relatively low risk into a C1 whatever and get ABC, when ABC is typically something, uh, reserved for extremely dangerous space far from empire.


Hulks can't fit into a C1 unless you build them. And again, how is a big blue happy NAP blob "Extremely dangerous space?"

Quote:
Uh, and we think that its important to make mining a valuable uh profession again particularly with high end ores because their prices crash. I started out mining as a newbie in Syndicate uh getting Crokite and we would all have big mining ops together. Nobody bothers with it anymore except for bots because the prices crash so much. Um, but yeah, I think its dumb that theres ABCs in wormholes, but its not the first order of business on my political agenda. I'm a little bit more focused on things like supercap balance... So don't worry your pretty little heads.


Why are you blaming wormholes for the collapse of mineral prices when every miner can be blamed for that? Especially when a whopping 2.45% of EVE's population actually lives in WHs? Maybe if nullbears stopped NAPing everything that moved it would be a riskier environment for miners, resulting in mining being more lucrative.

That's not to mention all the other ways that minerals are injected into the economy. (I'm looking at you, Drone Regions.)

Forgotten Heathen
Heretical Innovations
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.07.17 23:31:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Forgotten Heathen on 17/07/2011 23:33:51
Originally by: Jaigar
Edited by: Jaigar on 17/07/2011 21:52:27
Originally by: Dodgy Past
Edited by: Dodgy Past on 17/07/2011 10:04:06
MP3 of CSM fireside chat

2nd one, 22 minutes in for what the CSM had to say about this issue.


Wow, and I will quote (who I think is Mittani).
Quote:


I'll go ahead and like jump on this grenade cause theres a bunch of angry wormholers who are all ****ed off about it I don't give a ****. Basicly its stupid that you can mine Arkanor 2 jumps from Jita through a wormhole and low risk in my opinion. Uh, on the other hand, you should probably stop panicing because I think in the sucking chest wounds of EVE Online, uh, ABCs in wormholes are stupid for um class 1 through class 4. Class 5 and 6 is fine cause they're going to be more removed from empire. I think its dumb that you can have some guy in a hulk from Jita pop in with relatively low risk into a C1 whatever and get ABC, when ABC is typically something, uh, reserved for extremely dangerous space far from empire. Uh, and we think that its important to make mining a valuable uh profession again particularly with high end ores because their prices crash. I started out mining as a newbie in Syndicate uh getting Crokite and we would all have big mining ops together. Nobody bothers with it anymore except for bots because the prices crash so much. Um, but yeah, I think its dumb that theres ABCs in wormholes, but its not the first order of business on my political agenda. I'm a little bit more focused on things like supercap balance... So don't worry your pretty little heads.


Complete ignorance and the only arguement he throws is low risk. And whats more low risk than mining in null-sec?


My god, his ignorance is amazing. How can you be a CSM and on top of that then advocate for something you have no f-ing clue about!?

Guess what? That hulk "daytripping" in a system two jumps from Jita just got ganked because of being two jumps from Jita!!

And how did this Hulk get his ore out? You CANNOT take a whole grav site worth of ore out through C1-3 exits, so how much money is this guy getting? Like maybe 20 mil. Only ignorant people mine in wormholes they don't live in. The logistics are terrible, and the risk is not cost effective.

This continues to amaze me.Shocked

EDIT:

I didn't even see this one.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think its dumb that you can have some guy in a hulk from Jita pop in with relatively low risk into a C1 whatever and get ABC, when ABC is typically something, uh, reserved for extremely dangerous space far from empire.


So this CSM doesn't know about mass limits at all. You can't even get a Covetor into a C1 without building it in there. Rolling Eyes

That's what I like to call wormfail.

Asuri Kinnes
Caldari
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2011.07.18 03:14:00 - [30]
 

Gotta admit, Mittens is brave for "jumping on this one..." Brave, but stupid.

I wonder how he feels when CCP reports that the high end minerals are the price they are because of drone regions and bots?Rolling Eyes

Please, let me see a dam hulk on D-Scan in a C-1... YARRRR!!


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