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Seraph IX Basarab
Gallente
Haita de lupi
ROMANIAN-LEGION
Posted - 2011.07.12 20:28:00 - [1]
 

I don't think it is a bad SB because it can't be fit like a Hound/Purifier/Manticore. To me it isn't suppose to be any of those ships, it is suppose to be itself with a unique SB role. I am not referring to solo bombing. I think that takes away too much from the bomber. Rather I would be using this Stealth bomber either in a fleet or with another ship that would handle warp disrupting.

I like the 4/4/2 set up because to me the Nemesis isn't just a Stealth Bomber but a SB/EWAR combination. The Nemesis has the 2nd best CPU, cargo, capacitor, recharge rate, Sig Radius, Targeting range and velocity. The other 4/4/2 SB (Manticore) doesn't have the cap to run ewar in the mid slots efficiently while the other two SBs only have 3 mid slots.

While being in 2nd place in these 7 factors, the fact that it holds those places together puts it in an advantage I see where as the other SBs may be 1st in one aspect but 3rd and 4th in the others.

While it may have the worst align time, the Nemesis also has the highest structure points allowing you to easily place a nano fiber in one of the low slots placing the interia modifier number at lower than the base number for the Hound while still maintaining a higher structure. Really if you are bombing properly and starting the fight out aligned you don't even really need to worry much about any of that to begin with.

People may complain that it doesn't allow for double BCU to be fit. But quite honestly I seek to avoid stacking penalties wherever I can especially for frigs. Secondly the Nemesis does Thermal damage which offsets the lack of double BCU. Why? Think about how most tanks work. First thing you have to realize is that EVERY ship has shields and you have to deal with. Secondly, ships either tank shields OR armor. If they are doing both, you don't have to worry about that guy. When firing with a SB at an enemy if they are shield tank you have to realize most shield tanks focus on plugging their EM hole. So a shield tanked ship actually takes less damage from EM weapons than they do from thermal giving the Nemesis more of an advantage here.

The manticore gets kinetic damage bonus which will do even less damage. The hound gets explosive which will probably do the least against a shield tank and the purifier does EM which as stated above is almost always plugged by a good shield tank ship. So the thermal damage type slides on through in between the lines.

Concerning armor tanks, yes the Purifier will get through the shields the fastest but then do next to nothing damage on the actual armor. The manticore and hounds will do more damage once you get into armor but until then you're going to be shooting for crap damage against shields, even at an armor tanked ship. The thermal damage type on the other hand does decent damage to both shield and tanks. You don't have to wait for someone to knock out shields in order to do kinetic/explosive damage, neither are you rendered useless after shields go down as the purifier with EM damage.

Seraph IX Basarab
Gallente
Haita de lupi
ROMANIAN-LEGION
Posted - 2011.07.12 20:30:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Seraph IX Basarab on 12/07/2011 20:34:15
As for my fit since i'm sure some of you will ask:

High slots
Cov ops cloak II
Arbalest siege missile launcher X3
Bomb Launcher

Mid slots
AB
Sensor Damps X2
TP

Low slots
BCU II
Nano Fiber II

Rigs
None as of yet.


Now I know the first question i'll get is concerning the AB. Why am I using an AB over a MWD? Well consider this. What do I need the MWD for? Do I need to use it to get away from the enemy? No. I can just warp out. Using a MWD just blows up the sig radius on my paper thin frig and actually gets me killed faster. If I need to get away I warp away and come back cloaked. If i'm caught in a bubble, I screwed up in any case so it's all irrelevant.

Do I need to use the MWD to get in range of an enemy? No. Because if i'm using a SB properly I can get close enough with my cloak. The SB is about minimizing my known presence until the most opertune time. I don't need to be MWDing and chasing after people.

Can I use the MWD for survivability during combat? No. While my speed and transversal would be great, the sig radius would be blown up. Even if the transversal would off set my sig penalty that would only really help me against one target and if they did not have missiles. The capacitor and fitting cost is far too problematic.

The AB on the other hand is used to keep my transversal up with no penalties. My fitting is easier and my capacitor is without penalty.

Anyway I want to hear your thoughts. I'm newer with the SBers but i've had pretty good luck with them. My only loss was when I woke up, started up eve and learned there was a fleet. I undocked and as soon as I did I got fleet warped into a bubble and died in 5 seconds. :(

Rindon Callsar
Posted - 2011.07.12 23:03:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Rindon Callsar on 12/07/2011 23:03:52
From what I remember stealth bombers have pretty much been neutered and don't really do all that well anymore... Unless of course you are flying for days finding a target you can take, or are in an SB fleet which will alpha pop their target.


It kind of all comes down to taste. I have a few Purifiers sitting around along with a Nemisis or two just for craps and giggles if I can get anyone else to join me in a little sb hunt.

Just go to battleclinic and look at some load outs. It will give you an idea of what other people are running nemisis and the other SB like.

Cambarus
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2011.07.13 00:43:00 - [4]
 

Couple things I'd like to point out:

1)A bomber without an MSE is a dead bomber. An MSE literally doubles your EHP with a single slot, and while I can at least SEE why you would skip it on the 3 mid bombers (though really, I still think it's stupid) skipping it on a 4 mid bomber is absurdly ******ed.

2)Abs sound nice when you look at them as a way to mitigate damage on a bomber in theory, but in practice transversal is not, in fact, the advantage bombers have when it comes to mitigating damage, range and good target selection are. A bomber with good skills can hit out to ~50km with faction torps, and out to 90 with javelins, and that's without even looking at range increasing rigs. Granted if it's for solo work you want to be closer, but then it's trivial to keep out of the range or tracking of your target (remember, you only need to beat one, not both). Drakes will more often then not screw you, but that brings me to my next point:

3)Don't go after missile ships, and fit TDs instead of damps. I spent a month or so ****ing around in a bomber a fair while back, seeing what worked and what didn't, and I quickly became aware of something that has cemented the idea of fitting TDs even before TPs on my bombers:
In literally HALF the fights I was getting in (where we won anyway) we would have died horribly were it not for my dual-TDing manticore. I'd actually go as far as to say that the TD does more for the survivability of the bomber than the MSE does.

Now, as to why you're wrong about the nemesis not being ****:

Compare it to the manti, and its flaws are immediately visible. It lacks the CPU needed for a proper fit (and no yours is not a proper fit, it will die, and horribly at that) Cap also really isn't an issue, since the manti runs everything except its MWD forever, and even with the MWD going takes a good couple minutes to cap out.

As for damage types, you overstate their importance, especially when you factor in the extra damage mod involved. I'll have a quick look at eft to tell you EXACTLY how much of a difference this doesn't make:
Shooting an unfit megathron (which, being a gallente t1 ship, has 10% more kinetic resists than other races) a nemesis with 1 damage mod does 315 DPS, and a manticore with 2 does 340. Not to mention the fact that 3 of the 4 races get a t2 resist boost to thermal (a problem shared with kinetic, but that gives em and explosive an advantage in that each only has one race's t2 ships to worry about, instead of 3)

Also, a big part of shooting people in a bomber is going to be hunting ratters, whose resists are area-specific anyway.

Seraph IX Basarab
Gallente
Haita de lupi
ROMANIAN-LEGION
Posted - 2011.07.13 08:17:00 - [5]
 

1) Why do you need a MSE? You plan on getting shot? Dont need one unless you are. If you want to tank, take our a BC or BS. I see no reason wasting so much CPU, PG and a mid slot for MSE. If you are using a SB right, you won't need an MSE.

2) What BC/BS do you know that can't hit you at 50-90 kilometers? And just to clarify im referring specifically to null sec fleet stealth bombers. Something i'll bring up when again relevant. So again you're going to get hit at pretty much any of those ranges

3) Don't go after missile ships? I don't think thats very good advice. Thats taking out a lot of options for your targets. Probably the most common ship you will see in null is the Drake especially in fleets. If youre cloak ganking lone ratter battleships like here and here yes I would agree with you for sure. But note how even your Arazu friend is using sensor damps. Yes because he would get bonus for it but there is no reason to use SD and TD on the same ship. If everyone in that gang were to use SD the bs pilot wouldnt even be able to **** off the port side of his ship.

Now to compare the Manti with the Nemi, the Nemi has the 2nd best CPU and I don't really see an issue fitting any of the other bombers for their intended roles. Also if the Manti has no cap issues, than surely neither does the Nemi since it has better capacitor.

Concerning the damage types, putting a second BCU to gain an extra 25 damage is worth it? You are throwing away a low slot, and any advantage you had with the extra CPU the manti had over 25 damage? You could use that to do something about the beast since the Manti has the worst velocity.

Really the SB you use might be better for killing ratters. I dont know, I admit I have zero experience hunting ratters. Mostly just null fleet PVP type stuff. But I think you are just making your SB into a smaller drake that can cloak. What's the point in making it do what the Drake does? Loading it up with shields and stacking damage mods? Especially in a frig where every bit of CPU/PG/slot counts, stacking is just inefficiency. Maybe you will find something in EFT to prove me wrong, I dont know I never used it.

Nefilus Drey
Posted - 2011.09.01 01:27:00 - [6]
 

While the Nemesis is the hardest bomber to fit it doesnt deserve the hate it gets. The thermal DPS it can put out in a gang is well worthy.

After flying many different bomber fits I have come to the conclusion that an MSE is a wasted mid slot (in just about every situation). It may double your tank but that "tank" is still pathetic. You need to rely on range, speed, Ewar and tactical bookmarks for your "tank". Once you are primaried in a gang (if all else has failed) simply bounce to a bookmark and return to the fight, rinse and repeat.

TheMahdi
Posted - 2011.09.01 02:42:00 - [7]
 

Nemesis is indeed a good gang bomber with damps, but I would drop the TP. It makes a very good bomber in small ganking gangs looking for slow and fat targets.

Cambarus
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2011.09.01 03:48:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Seraph IX Basarab
1) Why do you need a MSE? You plan on getting shot? Dont need one unless you are. If you want to tank, take our a BC or BS. I see no reason wasting so much CPU, PG and a mid slot for MSE. If you are using a SB right, you won't need an MSE.


There's a fairly large difference between wanting to tank, and wanting to fit a single module capable of doubling your EHP. It makes a huge difference in smaller gangs, and while the difference is lessened in larger gangs, the same is true for ewar mods.
Originally by: Seraph IX Basarab

2) What BC/BS do you know that can't hit you at 50-90 kilometers? And just to clarify im referring specifically to null sec fleet stealth bombers. Something i'll bring up when again relevant. So again you're going to get hit at pretty much any of those ranges

I've never flown against a ship capable of hitting out that far while it's being TDed. There are a few that can, but for those you just get close and toss in a tracking script.
Originally by: Seraph IX Basarab

3) Don't go after missile ships? I don't think thats very good advice. Thats taking out a lot of options for your targets. Probably the most common ship you will see in null is the Drake especially in fleets. If youre cloak ganking lone ratter battleships like here and here yes I would agree with you for sure. But note how even your Arazu friend is using sensor damps. Yes because he would get bonus for it but there is no reason to use SD and TD on the same ship. If everyone in that gang were to use SD the bs pilot wouldnt even be able to **** off the port side of his ship.
Damps are stacking nerfed, and TDs are much more effective in smaller numbers, especially in that they let people get in close if need be (wasn't important for the arazu, but when that same guy flew a dictor it was a lifesaver on more occasions than I care to count)
Originally by: Seraph IX Basarab

Now to compare the Manti with the Nemi, the Nemi has the 2nd best CPU and I don't really see an issue fitting any of the other bombers for their intended roles. Also if the Manti has no cap issues, than surely neither does the Nemi since it has better capacitor.

Bombers intended role is cloaky shenanigans. You seem to think it's a fleet ship. Do you have any idea what a zealot will go to a bomber gang? (hint, without an MSE, it'll take 1 volley per ship)
Originally by: Seraph IX Basarab

Concerning the damage types, putting a second BCU to gain an extra 25 damage is worth it? You are throwing away a low slot, and any advantage you had with the extra CPU the manti had over 25 damage? You could use that to do something about the beast since the Manti has the worst velocity.

Actually with a manti you gain the ability to reasonably fit t2 torps. If you're shooting BSs that is. With t2 torps you're looking at about 100DPS increase by adding that second BCU, and another hundred DPS for going from faction to rage torps. Not exactly a small difference.
Originally by: Seraph IX Basarab

Really the SB you use might be better for killing ratters. I dont know, I admit I have zero experience hunting ratters. Mostly just null fleet PVP type stuff. But I think you are just making your SB into a smaller drake that can cloak. What's the point in making it do what the Drake does? Loading it up with shields and stacking damage mods?
As far as I can tell, the only use you have for bombers is dropping bombs, which TBH means nothing you fit really matters, with the obvious exception of the bomb launcher itself. Warping out when you get targeted is nice in theory, but I think you'll find that it doesn't really work when you can get 1 volleyed by a single ship.

Sgiliy
Posted - 2011.09.01 04:03:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Sgiliy on 01/09/2011 04:04:20
edit

Chessur
Posted - 2011.09.01 05:07:00 - [10]
 

I go in depth, and talk about all things stealth bomber in my blog.

You might also be interested in my corp and corp KB

Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
Posted - 2011.09.01 08:12:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Rindon Callsar

Just go to battleclinic and look at some load outs. It will give you an idea of what other people are running nemisis and the other SB like.


This is why I get so many easy kills these days. But I can't complain that much, I keep on piling good loot.

ChromeStriker
Posted - 2011.09.01 09:05:00 - [12]
 

A bomber is just a bomber in a fleet, all are pretty much equal with theyre own pros and cons. its only when you start solo or duo roaming that the differances really start showing.

Also.... Put Rigs ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Shocked

baltec1
Posted - 2011.09.01 09:47:00 - [13]
 

An MSE is just as important as the cloak in my book as it is that which allows me to take on battleships and BC solo and win.

Pat Irvam
Posted - 2011.09.01 11:22:00 - [14]
 

If you need a MSE your flying them wrong. Besides being a dead mid slot it raises your sig radius which is not good. In my old Nemeses me and my gang mates relied on creating horrific locking times (minute + on battleships) with damps with scripts. Now that I'm flying the purifier I must say the nemi is better. I hate the slot layout on the purifier and really miss the 4th mid. Way I rate the bombers is Manti (good fitting), Nemesis (hard fitting but good slots), Hound (speed is king in bomber life), purifier (umm not sure what I like about it tbh) Also bombers arent dead, its just they all in wormhole space now where they are invisible and can insta-pop barges.

Cambarus
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2011.09.01 21:52:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Cambarus on 01/09/2011 21:57:25
Originally by: baltec1
An MSE is just as important as the cloak in my book as it is that which allows me to take on battleships and BC solo and win.
Goons do solo pvp? (Alternately: You do solo pvp? Or: Your KB says you don't even kill pods solo. Or any variation of the 3 Very Happy )

Originally by: Pat Irvam
If you need a MSE your flying them wrong. Besides being a dead mid slot it raises your sig radius which is not good.
It also doubles your EHP, which IS good, because a bomber without an MSE can literally die before they even see the yellow box from a single cruiser/BC.
Originally by: Pat Irvam

In my old Nemeses me and my gang mates relied on creating horrific locking times (minute + on battleships) with damps with scripts. Now that I'm flying the purifier I must say the nemi is better.
So you just dont shoot anything with drones then. Gotcha.
Originally by: Pat Irvam
I hate the slot layout on the purifier and really miss the 4th mid. Way I rate the bombers is Manti (good fitting), Nemesis (hard fitting but good slots)
I can almost HEAR the sound of your credibility flying out the window. Manti and nemi have the exact same slot layout, the manti just has better CPU and PG.

Mfume Apocal
Minmatar
Origin.
Black Legion.
Posted - 2011.09.02 09:15:00 - [16]
 

My god, yes, please keep flying around with no-MSE SBs.

I like easy killmails.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.09.03 00:27:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Grimpak on 03/09/2011 00:36:34
Originally by: Cambarus
Couple things I'd like to point out:

1)A bomber without an MSE is a dead bomber. An MSE literally doubles your EHP with a single slot, and while I can at least SEE why you would skip it on the 3 mid bombers (though really, I still think it's stupid) skipping it on a 4 mid bomber is absurdly ******ed.

2)Abs sound nice when you look at them as a way to mitigate damage on a bomber in theory, but in practice transversal is not, in fact, the advantage bombers have when it comes to mitigating damage, range and good target selection are. A bomber with good skills can hit out to ~50km with faction torps, and out to 90 with javelins, and that's without even looking at range increasing rigs. Granted if it's for solo work you want to be closer, but then it's trivial to keep out of the range or tracking of your target (remember, you only need to beat one, not both). Drakes will more often then not screw you, but that brings me to my next point:

3)Don't go after missile ships, and fit TDs instead of damps. I spent a month or so ****ing around in a bomber a fair while back, seeing what worked and what didn't, and I quickly became aware of something that has cemented the idea of fitting TDs even before TPs on my bombers:
In literally HALF the fights I was getting in (where we won anyway) we would have died horribly were it not for my dual-TDing manticore. I'd actually go as far as to say that the TD does more for the survivability of the bomber than the MSE does.

Now, as to why you're wrong about the nemesis not being ****:

Compare it to the manti, and its flaws are immediately visible. It lacks the CPU needed for a proper fit (and no yours is not a proper fit, it will die, and horribly at that) Cap also really isn't an issue, since the manti runs everything except its MWD forever, and even with the MWD going takes a good couple minutes to cap out.

As for damage types, you overstate their importance, especially when you factor in the extra damage mod involved. I'll have a quick look at eft to tell you EXACTLY how much of a difference this doesn't make:
Shooting an unfit megathron (which, being a gallente t1 ship, has 10% more kinetic resists than other races) a nemesis with 1 damage mod does 315 DPS, and a manticore with 2 does 340. Not to mention the fact that 3 of the 4 races get a t2 resist boost to thermal (a problem shared with kinetic, but that gives em and explosive an advantage in that each only has one race's t2 ships to worry about, instead of 3)

Also, a big part of shooting people in a bomber is going to be hunting ratters, whose resists are area-specific anyway.

while I disagree with the range part, but only purely in a matter of taste, this post is pretty much /thread.


Originally by: Cambarus
I can almost HEAR the sound of your credibility flying out the window. Manti and nemi have the exact same slot layout, the manti just has better CPU and PG.


while I do agree that the nemesis is the worse bomber, both the nems and the manti have the same grid.


oh and the nems is actually the fat brick of the bombers. manticore has base align of 4.something seconds, and it's the second worse in this aspect.


nems goes above 6 seconds.

Cambarus
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2011.09.03 14:58:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Grimpak


Originally by: Cambarus
I can almost HEAR the sound of your credibility flying out the window. Manti and nemi have the exact same slot layout, the manti just has better CPU and PG.


while I do agree that the nemesis is the worse bomber, both the nems and the manti have the same grid.

Yeah I derped there, didn't notice the pg rig I had on the manti fit I thought was empty when I opened EFT >_>

Seraph IX Basarab
Gallente
Haita de lupi
ROMANIAN-LEGION
Posted - 2011.09.04 07:09:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Nefilus Drey
While the Nemesis is the hardest bomber to fit it doesnt deserve the hate it gets. The thermal DPS it can put out in a gang is well worthy.

After flying many different bomber fits I have come to the conclusion that an MSE is a wasted mid slot (in just about every situation). It may double your tank but that "tank" is still pathetic. You need to rely on range, speed, Ewar and tactical bookmarks for your "tank". Once you are primaried in a gang (if all else has failed) simply bounce to a bookmark and return to the fight, rinse and repeat.


Hard fit doesn't mean bad fit. IMO if you have a lot of CPU/PG left over on ANY ship you build, you're using it wrong. Everything has to fit very snug.

Agree 100 percent concerning MSE. The tank it offers is still pathetic. It's like wearing body armor out of cardboard in a sword fight.

Originally by: TheMahdi
Nemesis is indeed a good gang bomber with damps, but I would drop the TP. It makes a very good bomber in small ganking gangs looking for slow and fat targets.


What would I put instead of the TP? I've noticed in the small roams i've been on times when we'd catch bc targets and the moment I put the TP on my fleetmates' damage increased by a decent chunk. TP is one of the most under rated module. And if you go after haulers like Iterons the TP will only help you take down the ship even faster.

Originally by: Cambarus
There's a fairly large difference between wanting to tank, and wanting to fit a single module capable of doubling your EHP. It makes a huge difference in smaller gangs, and while the difference is lessened in larger gangs, the same is true for ewar mods.



That single module costs a butt load of PG/CPU which ******s the stealth bomber into a half assed cloaky drake. Doubling puny EHP is still puny.

Originally by: Cambarus
I've never flown against a ship capable of hitting out that far while it's being TDed. There are a few that can, but for those you just get close and toss in a tracking script.



The the sensor damps help the enemy from locking you and stopping you from cloaking or sending drones your way. Turret Disruptor is for tracking. You kill range to approach and once close you orbit and mess their tracking. That isn't a module for the stealth bomber, something slow that needs to be far away. I can see how the TD can be useful but if I could pick between being shot at badly or not shot at at all i'd pick the latter.

Originally by: Cambarus
Damps are stacking nerfed, and TDs are much more effective in smaller numbers, especially in that they let people get in close if need be (wasn't important for the arazu, but when that same guy flew a dictor it was a lifesaver on more occasions than I care to count)



TDs don't stack nerf?

Originally by: Cambarus
Bombers intended role is cloaky shenanigans. You seem to think it's a fleet ship. Do you have any idea what a zealot will go to a bomber gang? (hint, without an MSE, it'll take 1 volley per ship)



Cloaky small gangs are fine but I think the bomber shines as a fleet ship. You misunderstand though, I am not saying a whole huge fleet should be composed of stealth bombers, but having a couple will work wonders. Deploying bombs into the enemy fleet will cause a lot of damage. The more enemies the more useful the bomb becomes. BTW Zealot has thermal resist hole. Perfect for Nemi.

Originally by: Cambarus
Actually with a manti you gain the ability to reasonably fit t2 torps. If you're shooting BSs that is. With t2 torps you're looking at about 100DPS increase by adding that second BCU, and another hundred DPS for going from faction to rage torps. Not exactly a small difference.



Considering the cost and the fitting, a couple hundred damage doesn't impress me.

Seraph IX Basarab
Gallente
Haita de lupi
ROMANIAN-LEGION
Posted - 2011.09.04 07:11:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Seraph IX Basarab on 04/09/2011 07:11:16
Originally by: Cambarus
As far as I can tell, the only use you have for bombers is dropping bombs, which TBH means nothing you fit really matters, with the obvious exception of the bomb launcher itself. Warping out when you get targeted is nice in theory, but I think you'll find that it doesn't really work when you can get 1 volleyed by a single ship.



Incorrect. In my engagements where I used the bomb I deployed what bombs I had and continued on with the torps, as a bomber should be used like here:

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=10038552

Other engagements were ones where I didn't deploy the bomb because there was only one target or less:

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=10004227

Concerning the loss you posted it helps if you know what you are talking about. In that event I had just gotten on eve, saw a fleet was up, joined the fleet, and as soon as I got on TS I heard "undock undock" which I did, and without knowing where we were going that very moment we got fleet warped into a bubbled gate. Everybody else was in a bigger ship and made it through. Just about any frig would have died in that situation, MSE or not. In this case the loss was due to me being unprepared and not joining TS beforehand rather than a bad fitting. Nice try though.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.09.04 09:38:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Seraph IX Basarab
stuff



you really seem to don't understand how easy is to kill a bomber with no MSE, specially with drones which is something any half-good battleship pilot packs in there. Bombers are specially vulnerable to medium drones. And with a MSE, you get just enough time to escape.


hell the manticore can even fit MSE + damage control if you wish.



also, SB's are first and foremost anti big ship. they are a very effective tool in both small-ish gangs and covert gangs where they supply the dps vs bigger stuff, but their utility is quite diminished when you start to factor in larger fleets. At those sizes it really doesn't matter anymore since the inherent frailty of the bombers make them no more useful than expendable bomb launchers, which is the only role I can fathom the nemesis to shine more than the others, if it's not for the purty explosion it gives when it goes b00m after anything spits at you.

Cambarus
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2011.09.04 15:18:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Cambarus on 04/09/2011 15:18:36
Originally by: Seraph IX Basarab

Originally by: Cambarus
There's a fairly large difference between wanting to tank, and wanting to fit a single module capable of doubling your EHP. It makes a huge difference in smaller gangs, and while the difference is lessened in larger gangs, the same is true for ewar mods.



That single module costs a butt load of PG/CPU which ******s the stealth bomber into a half assed cloaky drake. Doubling puny EHP is still puny.

It's the difference between being able to get away if drones get stuck on you, or not. It's also the difference between being 1 shot and being 2 shot by a cruiser/BC sized ship.



Originally by: Seraph IX Basarab

The the sensor damps help the enemy from locking you and stopping you from cloaking or sending drones your way. Turret Disruptor is for tracking. You kill range to approach and once close you orbit and mess their tracking. That isn't a module for the stealth bomber, something slow that needs to be far away. I can see how the TD can be useful but if I could pick between being shot at badly or not shot at at all i'd pick the latter.

Originally by: Cambarus
Damps are stacking nerfed, and TDs are much more effective in smaller numbers, especially in that they let people get in close if need be (wasn't important for the arazu, but when that same guy flew a dictor it was a lifesaver on more occasions than I care to count)



TDs don't stack nerf?



You mess with their lock range, so you can get in close and mess with their tracking, ignoring what scrams, webs, and drones can and WILL do to you. Gotcha. As far as stacking penalties go, 2 unbonused damps won't even stop a hac from locking you within point range, 2 TDs will stop literally every turret using ship in the game from hitting you if you use them properly, from BSs to dramiels, and everything in between. You also ignored the second part of what I said, because I already mentioned that TDs are better in smaller numbers.

Originally by: Seraph IX Basarab

Cloaky small gangs are fine but I think the bomber shines as a fleet ship. You misunderstand though, I am not saying a whole huge fleet should be composed of stealth bombers, but having a couple will work wonders. Deploying bombs into the enemy fleet will cause a lot of damage. The more enemies the more useful the bomb becomes. BTW Zealot has thermal resist hole. Perfect for Nemi.

I'm well aware of what bombs do to fleets, but for that sort of fit the only mod that actually matters is the bomb launcher. I actually met a guy a fair while back with something like 1k kills using only a bomber, and his fit involved warp core stabs and cargo expanders >_>

Originally by: Seraph IX Basarab

Originally by: Cambarus
Actually with a manti you gain the ability to reasonably fit t2 torps. If you're shooting BSs that is. With t2 torps you're looking at about 100DPS increase by adding that second BCU, and another hundred DPS for going from faction to rage torps. Not exactly a small difference.



Considering the cost and the fitting, a couple hundred damage doesn't impress me.
That couple hundred damage is a 50% damage increase. Just sayin.

Seraph IX Basarab
Gallente
Haita de lupi
ROMANIAN-LEGION
Posted - 2011.09.04 20:25:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Seraph IX Basarab
stuff



you really seem to don't understand how easy is to kill a bomber with no MSE, specially with drones which is something any half-good battleship pilot packs in there. Bombers are specially vulnerable to medium drones. And with a MSE, you get just enough time to escape.


hell the manticore can even fit MSE + damage control if you wish.



also, SB's are first and foremost anti big ship. they are a very effective tool in both small-ish gangs and covert gangs where they supply the dps vs bigger stuff, but their utility is quite diminished when you start to factor in larger fleets. At those sizes it really doesn't matter anymore since the inherent frailty of the bombers make them no more useful than expendable bomb launchers, which is the only role I can fathom the nemesis to shine more than the others, if it's not for the purty explosion it gives when it goes b00m after anything spits at you.


You see I think we have a different approach to things which is why you find value in the MSE where as I don't. You go into situation prepared to take damage where as I go into situations prepared not to take damage. The cost of a medium module in a mid slot is simply a burden to my approach where I don't get shot. And in the one situation where I did die from being warped into a bad situation, it wouldn't have saved me either.

Seraph IX Basarab
Gallente
Haita de lupi
ROMANIAN-LEGION
Posted - 2011.09.04 20:27:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Cambarus
It's the difference between being able to get away if drones get stuck on you, or not. It's also the difference between being 1 shot and being 2 shot by a cruiser/BC sized ship.


Yeah the difference is one extra shot. So why not avoid getting shot all together? It's stupid easy in stealth bombers to avoid damage. The only time you are in trouble really is jumping through gates not knowing the other side.

Originally by: Cambarus
You mess with their lock range, so you can get in close and mess with their tracking, ignoring what scrams, webs, and drones can and WILL do to you. Gotcha.


Herpa derp, exactly why I was outlining why TD are not as useful for stealth bombers because you wouldnt do that.

Originally by: Cambarus
As far as stacking penalties go, 2 unbonused damps won't even stop a hac from locking you within point range,


Why would you be in point range with a SB? (24km) Your ranges with a bomber using torps should be 40-45 km and out. The closest you would ever get to is 30 km for the bomb and the moment you launch that you should be on course with celestial and warping out.


Originally by: Cambarus
2 TDs will stop literally every turret using ship in the game from hitting you if you use them properly, from BSs to dramiels, and everything in between.


Sensor damps would slow every ship in the game from locking you up and once they do to lose that lock. I think the issue is you fly your SB within point range to tackle, something the bomber isnt made for.

Originally by: Cambarus
You also ignored the second part of what I said, because I already mentioned that TDs are better in smaller numbers.


I didnt ignore it, it wasnt a point to be made. Simply saying it is better in smaller numbers doesnt make it so. You have to make your case.

Originally by: Cambarus
I'm well aware of what bombs do to fleets, but for that sort of fit the only mod that actually matters is the bomb launcher. I actually met a guy a fair while back with something like 1k kills using only a bomber, and his fit involved warp core stabs and cargo expanders >_>


Not true. After the bombs fly you can use the torps to great effect.

Originally by: Cambarus
That couple hundred damage is a 50% damage increase. Just sayin.


half of which is from simply using faction ammo. T2 torps are almost never used on SBombers for a reason.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.09.04 20:51:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Seraph IX Basarab
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Seraph IX Basarab
stuff



you really seem to don't understand how easy is to kill a bomber with no MSE, specially with drones which is something any half-good battleship pilot packs in there. Bombers are specially vulnerable to medium drones. And with a MSE, you get just enough time to escape.


hell the manticore can even fit MSE + damage control if you wish.



also, SB's are first and foremost anti big ship. they are a very effective tool in both small-ish gangs and covert gangs where they supply the dps vs bigger stuff, but their utility is quite diminished when you start to factor in larger fleets. At those sizes it really doesn't matter anymore since the inherent frailty of the bombers make them no more useful than expendable bomb launchers, which is the only role I can fathom the nemesis to shine more than the others, if it's not for the purty explosion it gives when it goes b00m after anything spits at you.


You see I think we have a different approach to things which is why you find value in the MSE where as I don't. You go into situation prepared to take damage where as I go into situations prepared not to take damage. The cost of a medium module in a mid slot is simply a burden to my approach where I don't get shot. And in the one situation where I did die from being warped into a bad situation, it wouldn't have saved me either.
I must say that I like this reply.
I can't say anything more of value after this.

Marak Mocam
Posted - 2011.09.05 01:41:00 - [26]
 

There's nothing wrong with the Nemesis and I'll toss a few summery things out for consideration.

First - this starts talking about 'group' work using bombers. Not soloing ratters for lulz. There's a big mindset difference when you work with a team and in team situations using EW, you don't want 10 friggn ships all trying to do the same damned thing to the same target so "mixing fits" is your best approach.

Second - You have damage type bonuses with bombers and if you do use bombs, you match them being as they have very high resists to their OWN damage type. So the "first" best approach is to have everyone in the same type of bomber -or- some using "off type" bombs to match damage types -or- you can expect to lose a lot of "mixed" bombs.

Third - torps: It makes dink difference, beyond your targets resists, and therm is a solid damage type. Kin isn't bad either, EM is very nice for stripping shields on ships and Explosive is solid too but, if I have to chose one or the other, I tend to go with thermal - again - this is very dependent upon how a gang/fleet is setup and, again, "matching" bombers to optimize bomb use is recommended. So if thermal damage is good - there is nothing wrong with this ship. It is the thermal damage bonus bomber.

Forth - TDs, Painters, Sensor Damps... in a GANG - you should mix it up a bit or stacking will eat your effectiveness. So having a mix of different effects is a good thing. The sample fits out damps - that's nice. Someone else fits out painters, someone else with some TD's someone else with ... whatever. DON'T fit the same damned EW solution on all the ships in a gang. You may also want someone fitting SOME tackle - it's handy on bombers at times and, again, you are dealing with a gang to fit.

Fifth - So you choose not to fit tank. There's nothing really wrong with this except... When a gang "appears" to nail a target, or group of targets, you can expect SOMEONE to get targeted and shot at. This time it may not be you but next time? ... You aren't "warping out" with torps inbound on your target - they'll *poof* and it's exceedingly rare that everyone will appear at the same time. A battleship with drones out - drones have a very fast lock time and there goes re-cloaking. They also will lock up to 8 targets at 1 time. This is something to consider with "gangs" and not thinking about tank.

Just a few thoughts and comments on your ideas here.


 

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