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Ciar Meara
Amarr
Virtus Vindice
Posted - 2011.07.14 13:46:00 - [151]
 

Edited by: Ciar Meara on 14/07/2011 13:53:32
Originally by: The Mittani

Screw your class 1-4 ABC.



Mittani, he's so mad he could grow a beard! Well your trying to, so that's something.

edit: The mittani long selfproclaimed "longwinded pseudo-intelligent douchebag" now also without a clue how WH's work. Still he has an opinion and by god like any pseudo-smart douchebag he will proclaim it!

Meditril
Posted - 2011.07.14 13:58:00 - [152]
 

Faction Warfare???

I haven't found any information about changes/improvements to Faction Warefare (except for in the 'Feature Abandonment' section). Have I missed something or is Faction Warefare already doomed?

Floydd Heywood
Posted - 2011.07.14 14:21:00 - [153]
 

Quote:
Based on comments by CCP Greyscale in a previous session, the subject of removing "ABC" minerals from wormholes was raised by nullsec-resident CSMs, who were surprised to learn that WH space was nullsec and that ABC minerals were available in them. They favored entirely removing ABC from WH space -- or limiting them to C5 and C6 holes -- but the two wormhole-resident CSMs objected strongly, pointing out that exporting minerals from deep wormhole space was difficult, and much of it was likely consumed locally.

This is unbelievable. People like that are unfit to be on the CSM. The fact that w-space is 0.0 is not some special knowledge, but the most important characteristic of vast regions of EVE. It's like not knowing that Concord exists or that Jita is the biggest trade hub in EVE.

Even worse is that people who don't know the first thing about w-space clamor for nerfing it. Utterly ridiculous. The stupid grunts from regular 0.0 look down on w-space inhabitants, but I always guessed that most of them are just too stupid to grasp the concepts and muster the effort needed there to survive.

Any regular 0.0 system which is protected by alliance gatecamps at region entries is A LOT safer than any w-space, where people can and do jump miners any second.

(And I don't even mine myself, I only kill miners.)

Floydd Heywood
Posted - 2011.07.14 14:35:00 - [154]
 

A special treat: The same people who didn't know anything about w-space but have an opinion on nerfing it, they are also convinced without ANY proof of fact that wormhole miners ruin ore prices. This is the best joke I've heard in a long time Laughing

Here is some truth for you: Very few people mine in w-space, unfortunately. One does find an Hulk or Covetor occasionally, but most wormhole-dwellers don't bother with mining because the risk is high and these so-called high-end ores are almost worthless nowadays. You also can't do it afk, at least not for long. I'd say that 8 out of 10 w-space corps never touch their grav sites.

Jonathan Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.14 15:47:00 - [155]
 

If CCP deliberately leaked these 'plans' to nerf wormholes so that they could back down on them and mollify some of their fanbois, well, I hope it doesn't work, but that would be typical of CCP.

If, on the other hand, CCP actually believes that wormholes, the only significant addition to their game they've gotten right in the last 3 years, and the only truly unsafe place where mining occurs pretty regularly in their game, need to have their ABC nerfed, well congratulations, you did something I didn't think you were capable of anymore, you surprised me. You guys are so clueless about your own game, it hurts to watch.

(And for the record, I'm a 1-year WH resident who has never mined arkonor in my WH. Unless blowing up a few of these 'carebear' day-trippers counts as mining.)

Vandrion
Gallente
The Collective
B O R G
Posted - 2011.07.14 17:14:00 - [156]
 

Originally by: The Mittani
Originally by: Cmdr Stargazer
Quote:
The CSM, with the exception of two members, is irked at the idea of high value ores being mined in low-end wormholes distorting the market. CCP Zulu mentioned that he considers this ‘******ed’ and that this will be looked into. In Class 5 or 6 wormholes the position is more nuanced, and the CSM acknowledged that these minerals could be used for local production, and that they are too far from the market to distort it.


Then the CSM members who are irked + Zulu are idiots. The risk/reward/PITA for WH mining is pretty high in lower class systems. Sure you can mine in a C1 WH but you have to have paranoia trained to V. Constantly dscan'ing for scan probes, no local, mining into a jetcan, jumping to a hauler, storing ore in a POS, making a stupid amount of trips to get ore out to refine at a decent rate(POS refining arrays are a joke).

"Daytrippers" can only jump a retreiver sized ship into the C1 WH, and a T1 Industrial to haul. The more mass you jump, the more unstable the WH gets. Translation: you are time limited on how much time/m3 you can actually get. Logisitcally and risk wise it hardly makes it worth it some times. The m3 of ore generated out of WH that actually makes it to market is likely very low(thank you CSM folks who asked for hard facts). Big alliance nullsec residents seem butthurt because somebody else has the ability to get at ABC besides them and their bots.

Also add to all of that the low spawn rate of ore sites(or any damn sites lately) and the fact that WH ore sites despawn unlike the ones in nullsec fortress systems. I hardly believe this is something that needs fixing/nerfing.

Will wait for CSM feedback after they get their requested hard data before resorting to 'Leave Britney Alone!' type screaming.




Screw your class 1-4 ABC.



Atleast you consistently prove that your an idiot of the first order and a douche bag of the highest caliber.....

ovenproofjet
Caldari
Therapy.
Posted - 2011.07.14 17:28:00 - [157]
 

Some good stuff in there. How about being constructive on the matters people instead of whining to CCP about it.

With regard to Black Ops improvements; they are currently the only ships that can jump into a cyno jammed systems. This should make them a very valuable assest to an attacking force. I'd like to see them slotted more into the "first strike" role. Something akin to how the US uses its Stealth aircraft to take out priority targets on the first night of a war.

Imagine the scene, alliance forming up to start an invasion. Capial and conventional fleet at the ready, but the Black Ops team is going in first to take out a systems cyno jammer.

Awesome as that sounds and it is theoretically possible today, but there are a few problems.

- First is the lack tank on the Black Ops, I mean come on, it's a T2 ship that has less tank than it's T1 equivilant. The fleet is therefore gonna have problems taking out the cyno jammer without getting ****d by the POS.

- The black ops gang can't really take Logistics with it. Yes some T3 ships can be fitted out with a Covert subsystem and logistics mods but the lack of range on them makes flying effective logistics difficult.

- Cyno jammers need to have some sort of weakness to black ops to make it worth while for someone to use said fleet against the module (currently you'd need a reasonable sized Battleship FLEET to take it down in a reasonable time). Perhaps a target painter that increases Black Ops gang damage to Cyno Jammers by a vast figure (balanced and only works on cynojammer modules OFC)

- And the fuel bay, it's utterly pitiful. To take a resonable sized gang with recons is next to impossible. Either reduce requirements on fuel or make the bay bigger.

- Boost jump range to 5LY at Jump Cal 4. A small boost on the current range but it makes the Black ops a threat to a whole region, not just most of it.

I certainly think this would help improve the effect small gangs can have in 0.0 sov warfare, whilst adding a nice twist to the planning alliance Sky Marshals would be doing

What do we think?


Floydd Heywood
Posted - 2011.07.14 19:00:00 - [158]
 

To iterate on my previous post: Removing ABC ores from w-space would be a big mistake because it would remove a conflict driver.

As I said, relatively few people mine in w-space, but there are wormhole miners. Some of my corpmates do it. When people are new to wormholes they tend to bring their hulk, after they've lost one or two they usually switch to covetors. At least the smart ones. Fact is: If ABC ores are removed, no one will mine in w-space ever again. And why would they? Why scan for limited supplies of crappy ores you can find in every hisec system?

Now in w-space stealth is everything, and there really isn't any reason to fly around visible, except two: killing sleepers or mining. Those are the two activites that require players to expose themselves in order to generate their income. Mining is by far the less significant of the two, but still: If mining is effectively banned from w-space then there will be less opportunity for conflict to ensue.

As every WH dweller knows, killing miners or being killed while mining (or corpmates being killed) can trigger many a fight between the residents and the intruders. Because the attacked party is more willing to engage when they have reason to want revenge.

I can only advise the devs to listen to people who know what they are talking about before changing anything about w-space. Hint: someone who didn't know that w-space is 0.0 does not qualify.

Jaehawn
Posted - 2011.07.14 20:56:00 - [159]
 

I wonder if they are running people out of WH because it doesn't fit into the Dust model of game play so they nerf it with proposed lose of ABC and increased fuel cost for POS.

Grey Wind
Posted - 2011.07.14 21:11:00 - [160]
 

Lots of stuff I liked, but the WH pieces ****ed me off. Removing ABC's from WH's because they are unbalancing the market? Only nit wits try hauling large amounts of ore out of WH's to sell. The ore in WH's is used to create ships inside the WH's not for exporting raw minerals to market. It isn't logistically feasible with the realities of WH mass limitations to attempt such a thing. If this nerf actually happens it will be proof that CCP doesn't understand it's own game.

Grey Wind
Posted - 2011.07.14 21:20:00 - [161]
 

Originally by: The Mittani
Originally by: Cmdr Stargazer
Quote:
The CSM, with the exception of two members, is irked at the idea of high value ores being mined in low-end wormholes distorting the market. CCP Zulu mentioned that he considers this ‘******ed’ and that this will be looked into. In Class 5 or 6 wormholes the position is more nuanced, and the CSM acknowledged that these minerals could be used for local production, and that they are too far from the market to distort it.


Then the CSM members who are irked + Zulu are idiots. The risk/reward/PITA for WH mining is pretty high in lower class systems. Sure you can mine in a C1 WH but you have to have paranoia trained to V. Constantly dscan'ing for scan probes, no local, mining into a jetcan, jumping to a hauler, storing ore in a POS, making a stupid amount of trips to get ore out to refine at a decent rate(POS refining arrays are a joke).

"Daytrippers" can only jump a retreiver sized ship into the C1 WH, and a T1 Industrial to haul. The more mass you jump, the more unstable the WH gets. Translation: you are time limited on how much time/m3 you can actually get. Logisitcally and risk wise it hardly makes it worth it some times. The m3 of ore generated out of WH that actually makes it to market is likely very low(thank you CSM folks who asked for hard facts). Big alliance nullsec residents seem butthurt because somebody else has the ability to get at ABC besides them and their bots.

Also add to all of that the low spawn rate of ore sites(or any damn sites lately) and the fact that WH ore sites despawn unlike the ones in nullsec fortress systems. I hardly believe this is something that needs fixing/nerfing.

Will wait for CSM feedback after they get their requested hard data before resorting to 'Leave Britney Alone!' type screaming.




Screw your class 1-4 ABC.


Now there is a GREAT example of someone supposedly speaking FOR THE COMMUNITY at their finest. Let's tell people who actually understand the topic at hand to go stuff it rather then admit you don't know what the flip you're talking about when it comes to WH's.

TheOnlyProphet
Amarr
Altus Provisio
Posted - 2011.07.14 21:21:00 - [162]
 

Take out ABC from WH and you might as well remove WH all together. There's only a couple reasons to go out there. Take out ABC and you have A glorified ratters haven where the occasional PVP can happen. Not much of an incentive guys.

Kerrisone
Posted - 2011.07.15 00:03:00 - [163]
 

Originally by: TheOnlyProphet
Take out ABC from WH and you might as well remove WH all together. There's only a couple reasons to go out there. Take out ABC and you have A glorified ratters haven where the occasional PVP can happen. Not much of an incentive guys.


Part of the point seems to be boosting 00 for 00 people to disconnect from empire, make it even better for them all to stay there working for their overlords, more 'farms and fields' so they can operate on their own. Of course that only works in one direction, they don't want to import anything, but they'll still want to dominate moon goo and sell that for billions and so on.

Making 00 'better' may come at the cost of nerfing other parts of the game to push people out there, the master CCP 'plan', cause it is the 'most important' part of EVE that they like to market.


Ogogov
Gallente
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.07.15 02:18:00 - [164]
 

The CSM minutes are depressingly void of an explanation or discussion as to why 1/4 of the ships in the game - surely you've seen some, the ugly green ones - are currently languishing in the "LOL" category.

Also unsurprised the next ship to be re-done will be another Caldari ship - did the Art team lose the guy who worked on all the Gallente ships and textures or something?

Leon Razor
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.15 06:50:00 - [165]
 

Edited by: Leon Razor on 15/07/2011 07:02:16
Quote:
For example, a UI cue that gives you transversal vs. tracking...it is silly that the pilot of a huge starship has to memorize things like tracking and optimal ranges.

I would love to see a UI that could do this and look awesome in the process. It would make a lot more sense if our on board computer could do some basic number crunching and show us something useful. This doesn't make the game simpler since all of the core mechanics are untouched. PvP happens fast and changes dynamically, more visual info like "can my guns currently hit this target at this range and speed" would be a refreshing and dynamic addition to combat.

Quote:
CCP Zulu agreed that dedicating a game-designer to ship-tweaking was a good idea. The CSM wholeheartedly approved of this, and urged that ship-balancing be regular, public, and incremental -- every patch should have some balance tweaks in it.

Why is this not already the case? The only real way to balance a game is to make small changes, see how they are received, and repeat this ad infinitum. Big changes are ok too (read Hybrids), but they should be put though an extensive community review process.

catinboots
Minmatar
Vintage heavy industries
Posted - 2011.07.15 08:10:00 - [166]
 

First of all a good read and after the recent commotions , i still have confidence in the CSM except for one thing

please DO NOT MAKE null sec less dependable on high sec industry

The reasons on my objection
They already have the monopoly on moon goo and high end minerals , letting them monopolize even more will nust make them more powerfull and lazy
Really some of them are larger and more powerfull than the 2 largest npc factions combined
This isn t right for the sake balacing the universe

Anyway thank you for reading and thank you for your dedication. Toward this game

Tetragammatron Prime
Posted - 2011.07.15 10:09:00 - [167]
 

I <3 this CSM! First we got JB nerf, now we're gonna get local nerf!

BiggestT
Caldari
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2011.07.15 11:15:00 - [168]
 

Originally by: CSM Minutes
He recently did a new Raven, but the model didn’t pass muster. The CSM asked what Art would like to do next ship-wise; the Raven is a top candidate.


So it seems we really are getting a new raven..I don't know wether I'm happy or sad about this Exclamation

Oh and I'm stoked about a dedicated ship balance dev, CCP Tallest.

The problem is he'll likely have to go through the CSM whith whatever changes he suggests, I'd prefer an forum interface so we get a less polarized discussion (which will have to be heavily moderated of course to remove all the LULJUSTTRAINWINMATAR!!11 and DONTNERFMYSHAMAN/whatever crowd)

Tomarix Vindigo
Posted - 2011.07.15 11:54:00 - [169]
 

Originally by: Joseph Vacher
So let me get this straight - the winter expansion is:

  • changes to sovereignty and supercaps in 0.0

  • player-run shops in stations

  • some as-yet-unknown change to the local channel


No actual new content, then? Just changes to existing content, and an extension of the faintly pointless walking-in-stations functionality.

Is any of this supposed to actual excite people?

I know a lot of the previous updates have had preliminary excitement that has then died off, but does anyone else remember when they first heard of the new drone regions, or wormholes, or factional warfare, or planetary interaction, or exploration, or T3 ships? Remember when you used to think: blimey, I'm looking forward to getting hold of that?

Now we'll be able to sell each other boosters. Woohoo.


You are right. Most pilots I know look at least for new ships or else having something meaningful to skill for after an expansion. Those who don't enjoy pvp every day stick to the same missions every day for years now. With simplyfying the NPC agents it is even more boring than before. INCARNA is (currently) useless. We don't need shiny, we need content.

Don't name bugfixing and balancing of old content an expansion. Do it, do it quitely and name something worthwhile an expansion. The last so called expansion was INCARNA. It has brought us nothing but technical errors and heated discussion. It not even has some decent content. It is not even finished. But CCP calls it an expansion. CCP - it isn't.

An expansion is something people are eager to get their hands on. Stuff like INCARNA looks like it is done to make some devs happy, but not for the pilots of EvE. You will concentrate to review and balance the current content, go for it, but don't name such standard MMO business an expansion. Other games dev teams do it while they develop new content. Go figure.

The so called outlook for EvEs future is seriously lacking. The game my friends and me came for years ago has been forgotten by the devs or so it seems to me. Trying too hard to get new customers has often resulted in loosing the long time loyal ones.

Naomi Wildfire
Amarr
Spricer
Raiden.
Posted - 2011.07.15 12:59:00 - [170]
 

Excuse me, can someone tell me when i am able to buy and fly the Tornado Class Battleship?

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.07.15 13:21:00 - [171]
 

Originally by: Naomi Wildfire
Excuse me, can someone tell me when i am able to buy and fly the Tornado Class Battleship?


:18months:

Timings dependent on monocle sales.

C.


Floydd Heywood
Posted - 2011.07.15 13:38:00 - [172]
 

Originally by: Tomarix Vindigo

You are right. Most pilots I know look at least for new ships or else having something meaningful to skill for after an expansion. Those who don't enjoy pvp every day stick to the same missions every day for years now. With simplyfying the NPC agents it is even more boring than before. INCARNA is (currently) useless. We don't need shiny, we need content.

I'm probably the minority, but I don't need new content. I'd love if CCP stopped adding new content entirely for three years and only polished and refined what is already in the game. There is such a huge amount of content already, but much of it is dated or was never truly finished and balanced.

In my view, the eternal race for new content is very bad for the game. Because instead of perfecting what is there, we get ever more imperfect features. And irrelevant features too, because it is hard to add really new, unique, distinct stuff to a game that already has so much.

I know though that they have to do it because people expect it. They always want NEW stuff, even if they don't know half of what has already been in the game for years.

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.07.15 14:11:00 - [173]
 

Originally by: Shasz
Overall the CSM meeting reads to be a success.

However, son, I am disappoint with the recurring theme at CCP of, "We have this cool feature idea that we're marketing and building - but no idea what content will be in it, and no we have nothing to show off yet."

CCP: We have Dust with Eve tied together!!
CSM: How's it gonna work?
CCP: Hmm, dunno yet.

CCP: We have CQ and walking in stations!
CSM: What we gonna do in stations?
CCP: Hmm, dunno yet.

CCP: We've setup microtransactions just in case subscriptions are teh fail!
CSM: Whatcha gonna sell, and how much?
CCP: Hmm, dunno yet.

CCP: We want to revamp XXX feature and make it more "unified"
CSM: <Le Sigh> Show us even a rudimentary plan or design?
CCP: We don't have one.




Yup that pretty much sums up these minutes.

C.

darkdooku
Posted - 2011.07.15 17:10:00 - [174]
 

"The first ship-related virtual good will be the Ishukone Watch Scorpion. As with other virtual goods, this will be a unique item; the cost will be some amount of Aurum plus a regular Scorpion. However, this will not be available in the immediate future."

This concerns me slightly. When might we be getting more information pertaining to ship-related virtual goods?

Xenial Jesse Taalo
Posted - 2011.07.15 17:11:00 - [175]
 

Edited by: Xenial Jesse Taalo on 15/07/2011 17:11:47
Quote:
The first ship-related virtual good will be the Ishukone Watch Scorpion. As with other virtual goods, this will be a unique item; the cost will be some amount of Aurum plus a regular Scorpion.

I had thought that this particular paragraph is exactly what people would be scouring the document for.

I don't understand how, after multiple thousands of people stage an in-game protest, nobody seems to notice that CCP have just said "Here you go guys, micro-transactions, special ships."

Is there a burning flag I'm missing somewhere?



Edit - Wow then suddenly I'm ninja'd by one minute.

Written Word
Written Word's Tax Haven
Posted - 2011.07.15 17:50:00 - [176]
 

Originally by: darkdooku
"The first ship-related virtual good will be the Ishukone Watch Scorpion. As with other virtual goods, this will be a unique item; the cost will be some amount of Aurum plus a regular Scorpion. However, this will not be available in the immediate future."

This concerns me slightly. When might we be getting more information pertaining to ship-related virtual goods?


Its a re skinned scorpion, nothing changed statwise.

Was nobody paying attention to when the CCP claimed the CSM authorized them to spawn gold scorpions for just Aurum because they hadn't (or probably can't) actually code a way for the NeX store to work?

Xenial Jesse Taalo
Posted - 2011.07.15 22:35:00 - [177]
 

I was away it seems. Well, just a reskin is completely fine and welcome by me. I don't mind people flaunting their wealth if it isn't putting me at a disadvantage. I would even aim to get such a shiny.

Do you have a source?

oldmanst4r
Minmatar
oldmanst4r's Corporation
Posted - 2011.07.15 22:58:00 - [178]
 

Edited by: oldmanst4r on 15/07/2011 22:58:48
Originally by: CCP
high-level alliance assets in the form of death stars (complete with a “That’s no moon” reference)


Just what we need, bigger, more powerful supercapitals. I wonder how long it will be before everyone and their mother has a "death star" alt for ratting/peeveepee.

Carniflex
StarHunt
Fallout Project
Posted - 2011.07.16 04:17:00 - [179]
 

"The CSM then moved the conversation to CCPs inability to properly communicate with the player-base. The example used was infamous “Anomaly Nerf” Devblog which made an acceptable change but used the wrong arguments for it. The CSM explained that the perception that CCP doesn’t play the game added unnecessary fuel to the fire. Arnar was acutely aware of this and was vehement in CCP’s commitment to bettering communication to the players."

and

"The CSM was then shown statistics related to the anomaly nerf. CCP did not expect the numbers to drop as much as they did. There was quite a bit of discussion about how the nerf disproportionally hurt alliance grunts."

are both issues attached to the same coin. It's not like people who actually do play the affected part of the game did not tell them what will happen. Communications were a real dealbreaker tho in this particular case. The changes themselves - well ok nerfs happen - but coming and telling me that this will increase conflict was just insulting. Especially combined with "our model predicts" when people who have track record of doing more accurate predictions than CCP tell em their model is wrong - like for example Akita.

Population drop in null - well thats expected - before the anom nerf null sec was about 10% better than hi sec lev 4 missions (farming anoms with carriers vs dualaccounting marauders in hi sec lev 4). After the nerf in null and boost in hi sec ofc population moves where the isk is. From grand scheme of things this is ofc good thing as lev 4 missions are isk sink (LP store) or isk neutral (depending on item you are looking).

Main problem with change was still communication. The arbitrary feeling it left for most who had spent their past year and half building up null sec infrastructure just to have the space they built up turned into a wasteland by a whim of a dev. With right kind of communication it would have been possible to sell this thing without screaming in my face "we dont have plan but lets kick over than sandcastle there and see what happens".

I am now bitter vet btw.

Tae'Lin Hynd
Wutzit
Posted - 2011.07.16 06:30:00 - [180]
 

Came back for a visit, am extremely disappointed that my prediction a few years back is happening. The Item mall.

I miss when they at least pretended that they stood by what they said so many years ago.

Also, as an experienced WH miner. I spent near a year in the WH when they first came out. Only time I would really mine, was on the days that there would be no one else on to run sites with. This, in a class V would yield APX 100k zyd in a months span. I do remember spending MANY hours HAULING IN trit and pye. Never lost a hulk or an orca hauler out there, lots of corp mates did though. Please also take note, this is at 75% refine rate, hauling the zyd to trade for pye and trit through at least a C3, a C2, and then a C1 leading to either high or low sec from there having to get it to someplace in some far off region to get on market to quick sell to pick up the trit and pye needed to haul back 10+ jumps then to go through the WHs again.....Yeah, not as easy as compressing, sticking in jump freighter and taking a free easy trip to high sec market hub.


Nul seccers are the biggest bunch of whiney carebears in the game, and it is a sad sad story.


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