| Author |
Topic |
Taleris Kline |
Posted - 2011.07.12 17:30:00 - [ 31]
Edited by: Taleris Kline on 12/07/2011 17:30:58
Out of curiosity, what is the process for balancing ships?
Will it be something similar to:
1) CCP Tallest proposes a change to CCP Soundwave with associated data of why they want to make that change.
2) Pending CCP Soundwave's approval, CCP Tallest makes a change on SiSi or Duality and asks players opinions on it.
3) Pending no game breaking response, CCP tallest submits the change for TQ?
Or will it be just released onto TQ?
|
JC Walker |
Posted - 2011.07.12 17:31:00 - [ 32]
Edited by: JC Walker on 12/07/2011 17:31:17
I think far too much emphasis is placed on the art side of projects in Eve. An exmaple being the development time for POS rehashing.....Personally, and I'm sure a lot of other people would agree, I don't feel that the artwork has to be that great initially (they can be pimped out visually later on), the key point is functionality - keep the art side really simple and get the functionality right. |
Llambda
Space Llama Industries |
Posted - 2011.07.12 17:32:00 - [ 33]
 Quote:
Based on comments by CCP Greyscale in a previous session, the subject of removing "ABC" minerals from wormholes was raised by nullsec-resident CSMs, who were surprised to learn that WH space was nullsec and that ABC minerals were available in them. They favored entirely removing ABC from WH space -- or limiting them to C5 and C6 holes -- but the two wormhole-resident CSMs objected strongly, pointing out that exporting minerals from deep wormhole space was difficult, and much of it was likely consumed locally.
I... what? |
Jonathan Malcom
Gallente
Test Alliance Please Ignore |
Posted - 2011.07.12 17:33:00 - [ 34]
Does anyone else notice how frequently "limited resources" is cited as the reason for delaying all the really significant game improvements?
Compare this to the 2010 Financial Report.
Eve is literally coasting on fumes while CCP's other projects (including the Aurum store) are getting the lion's share of development resources.
That kind of ****es me off.
I mean, it's been obvious for a while, but seeing it in black an white is getting to me.
|
Iancasnim |
Posted - 2011.07.12 17:34:00 - [ 35]
|
Ryunosuke Kusanagi |
Posted - 2011.07.12 17:34:00 - [ 36]
My Thoughts on Minutes, Part 1
Time to reply, gonna be a wall of text, sorry, you have been forwarned
Intro
Major complaint here is the access to non-critical plans on eve (Backlogs, plans, work priorities and distribution, etc.) On one hand, having just the CSM's access to this gives critical input from the majority of the represented aspects of eve. On the other hand, having access to the majority of EVE players could give some criticism (constructive of course) but also raises the prospect of another ... Monocle-gate type of event. I am leaning towards the CSM's having access to this. Point 2 of this section is having the team leaders make regular blog posts on what they are generally doing. I feel this will a) help with communications within CCP as well with their customers, and b) it gives EVE a sorta ... purpose... instead of kinda just meandering through everything, but that is just how I feel at the moment. As for the visibility and relevance of the CSM's (past, present, and future) will be a good thing, not only just, you know, "OMG LETS FLY CSMS TO ICELAND NOW" type of thing, but also for regular meetings. One way would be to advertise such, on ingame fansites (EN24, Eve Radio, etc.), as well as external ones (PCGamer, etc.)
Team BFF and Small things:
I think having a team working on specifically "small stuff" is a good thing, it lessens the workload of the major developments (sorry to use that term but still...) and still fixes some of the minor nuances that EVE has. Hope this stays tbh. Also in this section is the note that Team BFF does "non-little" stuff, This can be fine if it isn't impeding on the other team's work, I think.
Flying in space: (Long sorry)
- Artwork, Poses, Etc. - I wonder, how hard would it be for CCP to take say, a few people from each team to work on POS stuff? Would that be too much of a task or would that work for an "expansion" or two?
- FiS/WiS/Contraband - The idea of "smuggling" is kinda ... bland at the moment, no real risk, unless you are a total dumbass and fly a freighter full of boosters, and the punishment is kinda... I don't wanna say lame, but there could be a better way, the ideas presented in the CSM minutes sound good.
- Pos Modules again/Sov - The idea is sound, moving certain modules outside the forcefield would actually force alliances to keep active tabs and defences for poses as opposed to how they are now. The "tangible" incentives are kinda hard to do I understand, the most effecient way is to give more isk making sites, But sometimes, people want something... more, maybe a reduction in refinery costs, etc. On Treaties, there is already NAP's in place, the problem with small alliances trying to gain space is that to be neighbors with the larger alliances/NAPs is this: The Sword of Damocles. The threat that if you don't play ball by our rules we will kill you.
- EVE Future: Hidden Content, does this mean that other CQ's (Gallente, Caldari, Amarr) are refinements to Minmatar one, or is that a "hidden content"? Contraband: see above.
- Nebulae: I like this idea alot. Being a Freelancer fan, I could generally identify where I was in relation to the Barrier, the Crow Nebula (Sigma Systems/Kusari), the Walker Nebula (Omega Systems/Rheinland) or the Edge Nebula (Omega Systems). Having something like that in EVE would be good for coherence, instead of semi-random backdrops (you notice that caldari space is blue-ish, amarr is kinda reddish, etc.), Pool of Radiance, Cord of the Elements, Vapor Sea would be some large landmarks that could be seen.
(more to continue) |
Joseph Vacher |
Posted - 2011.07.12 17:34:00 - [ 37]
So let me get this straight - the winter expansion is: - changes to sovereignty and supercaps in 0.0
- player-run shops in stations
- some as-yet-unknown change to the local channel
No actual new content, then? Just changes to existing content, and an extension of the faintly pointless walking-in-stations functionality. Is any of this supposed to actual excite people? I know a lot of the previous updates have had preliminary excitement that has then died off, but does anyone else remember when they first heard of the new drone regions, or wormholes, or factional warfare, or planetary interaction, or exploration, or T3 ships? Remember when you used to think: blimey, I'm looking forward to getting hold of that? Now we'll be able to sell each other boosters. Woohoo. |
XIRUSPHERE
Gallente
Deadly Intent.
|
Posted - 2011.07.12 17:35:00 - [ 38]
Edited by: XIRUSPHERE on 12/07/2011 18:03:51 Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: Kerrisone
Quote:
The CSM repeated the concern, raised at previous summits, that too many resources were devoted to
"new and shiny". The question of whether, after the initial development of Incarna and Establishments,
some of those resources could be redirected towards fixing existing features was raised.
CCP replied that a significant portion of the resources used to develop Incarna have been borrowed
from other projects, or are being used to develop infrastructure that has broader application than just
Incarna.
CSM pointed out that iterating on an existing feature and at the same time adding some new functionality and art will provide the new "shiny" that Marketing & Sales can use to promote an expansion.
CCP observed that doing the Dead Horse revamp would require 2 tech teams plus an art team for one or two releases. It was also pointed out that if the subscriber base grows (via Incarna and microtransactions), it would be possible to hire more people to work on EVE.
Again there is money for WOD/DUST but not for EVE, thanks again CCP.
Oh and I thought you guys said that MT from NEX was to pay for the development of NEX items cause fashion designers that make stuff I could draw up when I was 9 years old cost so much.
http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=913
It's actually the other way around. We've been heavily borrowing resources from projects like WoD for EVE.
So you guys plan on using the same attitude with your new babies too I take it? If it looks good it is good, dysfunctional abandon-ware from the onset to be supplemented by broken content and a service ethos that supports hacks and shills. Helicity was apt saying these new creations will be stillborn. Seriously though, please don't claim that resources for WOD were given to EVE when those resources are ultimately for WOD. You injected a WOD alpha into our universe, broke it's immersion, introduced the first and only indestructible items in the game which spit in the face of the mechanics and wondered why someone threw a match on all the furniture you keep spilling gas on. This playerbase does not respond to BS like EA crowds do, figure it out. |
Shepard Book |
Posted - 2011.07.12 17:35:00 - [ 39]
I think it is good CCP has diversified with other products personally and I think it will be a good thing down the road years from now for both Eve and CCP. |
Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden. |
Posted - 2011.07.12 17:37:00 - [ 40]
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
It's actually the other way around. We've been heavily borrowing resources from projects like WoD for EVE.
Great news, I for one am glad to hear that WoD is now self funding and can actually spare resources to lend to E... haaaaang on! You nearly had me there, you big kidder. |
jackaloped |
Posted - 2011.07.12 17:40:00 - [ 41]
Originally by: Jonathan Malcom
Does anyone else notice how frequently "limited resources" is cited as the reason for delaying all the really significant game improvements?...
Yes its quite clear to anyone who can see past the fluff. CCP has severely limited the resouces it will put to core eve gameplay in the foreseeable future. CSM what are your plans to try to encourage CCP to change course? |
CCP Soundwave
C C P Alliance |
Posted - 2011.07.12 17:45:00 - [ 42]
Originally by: Taleris Kline
Edited by: Taleris Kline on 12/07/2011 17:30:58
Out of curiosity, what is the process for balancing ships?
Will it be something similar to:
1) CCP Tallest proposes a change to CCP Soundwave with associated data of why they want to make that change.
2) Pending CCP Soundwave's approval, CCP Tallest makes a change on SiSi or Duality and asks players opinions on it.
3) Pending no game breaking response, CCP tallest submits the change for TQ?
Or will it be just released onto TQ?
It's a process with quite a few steps, including consulting the CSM. We're not going to release any balanced ships without them being reviewed thoroughly. |
Jonathan Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance |
Posted - 2011.07.12 17:45:00 - [ 43]
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
It's actually the other way around. We've been heavily borrowing resources from projects like WoD for EVE.
Perhaps you could add some of the flaming pants you wear to the next round of space-barbie clothes? |
Jonathan Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance |
Posted - 2011.07.12 17:47:00 - [ 44]
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
It's a process with quite a few steps, including consulting the CSM. We're not going to release any balanced ships without them being reviewed thoroughly.
Yes, it's just the unbalanced ships we release without them being reviewed thoroughly. |
Florestan Bronstein
24th Imperial Crusade
|
Posted - 2011.07.12 17:48:00 - [ 45]
Originally by: Joseph Vacher
So let me get this straight - the winter expansion is:
- player-run shops in stations
No actual new content, then? Just changes to existing content, and an extension of the faintly pointless walking-in-stations functionality.
what's your source for the bolded part? (I just looked through the minutes again to make sure and didn't find any mention of "establishments" being player-run) |
Wooker Tosk |
Posted - 2011.07.12 17:49:00 - [ 46]
Hmmm, CCP's QA department is severely under staffed, also using an outside team to augment. Bad call CCP. Build up your staff internally treat them well and pay them well. If their lives suck your game's quality suffers. |
Taleris Kline |
Posted - 2011.07.12 17:50:00 - [ 47]
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: Taleris Kline
Edited by: Taleris Kline on 12/07/2011 17:30:58
Out of curiosity, what is the process for balancing ships?
Will it be something similar to:
1) CCP Tallest proposes a change to CCP Soundwave with associated data of why they want to make that change.
2) Pending CCP Soundwave's approval, CCP Tallest makes a change on SiSi or Duality and asks players opinions on it.
3) Pending no game breaking response, CCP tallest submits the change for TQ?
Or will it be just released onto TQ?
It's a process with quite a few steps, including consulting the CSM. We're not going to release any balanced ships without them being reviewed thoroughly.
Could you tell us either here or in a dev blog what the process is? It would help keep people's expectations in check with when we would start seeing ship balancing occuring. CCP Tallest's thread in FID has withered the past week or so. |
Jim Luc
Caldari
Rule of Five
Vera Cruz Alliance |
Posted - 2011.07.12 17:50:00 - [ 48]
It takes 30 people 7 weeks to update one single ship to V3 standards?? Would it be more cost effective to get a system set up to allow for outsourcing design & asset generation, allowing the creative directors at CCP full control still, but utilizing and multiplying man-hours in China or somewhere less expensive. This way the 30 people at CCP can work on the large things, and eventually pass it on to the 3rd party teams. I'm sure this isn't a new idea... |
Kerrisone |
Posted - 2011.07.12 17:51:00 - [ 49]
Originally by: Llambda
Quote:
Based on comments by CCP Greyscale in a previous session, the subject of removing "ABC" minerals from wormholes was raised by nullsec-resident CSMs, who were surprised to learn that WH space was nullsec and that ABC minerals were available in them. They favored entirely removing ABC from WH space -- or limiting them to C5 and C6 holes -- but the two wormhole-resident CSMs objected strongly, pointing out that exporting minerals from deep wormhole space was difficult, and much of it was likely consumed locally.
I... what?
Yes and in the past people jumped down the throats of people who didn't know every aspect of 00 mechanics yet here the nullsec people seem to be the ones uninformed. |
Sonya Mag |
Posted - 2011.07.12 17:51:00 - [ 50]
"PLEX for Snitches""Another new program will encourage players to report botting programs, RMT, and exploits. The current name for this program is "PLEX for Snitches", and it has been running informally for a while; there are plans to make it formal. The goal of this program is to encourage responsible reporting of security issues."  |
Lykouleon
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation |
Posted - 2011.07.12 17:55:00 - [ 51]
Questions so far (still reading)
1) Is there a team actively looking at developing/evolving lowsec gameplay or is that being held off the table until nullsec is looked at for the winter?
2) Is there a team currently actively exploring fixes for FW?
3) Iterations on WH space and Incursions, when can we start to expect things to be added to them/begin publicly whining like spoiled children? |
Kerrisone |
Posted - 2011.07.12 18:01:00 - [ 52]
Originally by: Joseph Vacher
So let me get this straight - the winter expansion is:
- changes to sovereignty and supercaps in 0.0
- player-run shops in stations
- some as-yet-unknown change to the local channel
No actual new content, then? Just changes to existing content, and an extension of the faintly pointless walking-in-stations functionality.
Is any of this supposed to actual excite people?
I know a lot of the previous updates have had preliminary excitement that has then died off, but does anyone else remember when they first heard of the new drone regions, or wormholes, or factional warfare, or planetary interaction, or exploration, or T3 ships? Remember when you used to think: blimey, I'm looking forward to getting hold of that?
Now we'll be able to sell each other boosters. Woohoo.
You seem to be channeling the idiocy that says "I want new shiny stuff!", please sit down and have another drink. If you've been out of the loop the plan has been for EVE (the space game most of us signed up for) to languish for at least another 5 months before space issues can begin to be addressed meaning another 8+ months to see even the smallest fruits of that change. It is entirely possible that could be delayed or only part of the 'herd' of devs get assigned to working on EVE space again after 5 months. New content isn't better, it is nice, but at this point, actually for years content was introduced and left to rot not getting updated, not being balanced etc. I'd much rather have more 'iterations' on that old content than NEW **** for new ****'s sake. The new **** you get is opening the door to CQ that some people with small brains find fascinating, they'll add shops and the 'gameplay' involved with that or so they say. BTW: I'm not happy about incarna because it takes too much time and effort from working on things I care about much more than the 'lame' product that I think Incarna will be. CCP could surprise me but doing that means the 5 months must grow longer or new people have to get hired to work on space stuff and more incarna crap. CCP has continually said they are too busy for space stuff because of incarna and while not often mentioned the Dust link contributes to eve space being neglected although not as much as incarna. |
Joseph Vacher |
Posted - 2011.07.12 18:02:00 - [ 53]
Originally by: Florestan Bronstein
Originally by: Joseph Vacher
So let me get this straight - the winter expansion is:
- player-run shops in stations
No actual new content, then? Just changes to existing content, and an extension of the faintly pointless walking-in-stations functionality.
what's your source for the bolded part?
(I just looked through the minutes again to make sure and didn't find any mention of "establishments" being player-run)
That's what I assumed this meant: Establishments will be coupled with an iterative feature on contraband. Torfi was concerned that,
currently, smuggling contraband & boosters doesn’t feel like the shady business practice it is.
Additionally, the fact that NPCs play a large role in policing boosters does limit gameplay. Putting that policing into the hands of players, as well as making Establishments the venue for booster sales, would be a successful iterative feature.If they're not even doing that it makes this alleged expansion even more worthless. Is it really considered alright to just fix things and alter things and call it an 'expansion'? |
Shepard Book |
Posted - 2011.07.12 18:13:00 - [ 54]
Originally by: Florestan Bronstein
Originally by: Joseph Vacher
So let me get this straight - the winter expansion is:
- player-run shops in stations
No actual new content, then? Just changes to existing content, and an extension of the faintly pointless walking-in-stations functionality.
what's your source for the bolded part?
(I just looked through the minutes again to make sure and didn't find any mention of "establishments" being player-run)
I believe it is discussed in CCP presents from fanfest and briefly in day four of the last Alliance tourney. |
Florestan Bronstein
24th Imperial Crusade
|
Posted - 2011.07.12 18:14:00 - [ 55]
Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 12/07/2011 18:14:31 Originally by: Joseph Vacher
That's what I assumed this meant:
Establishments will be coupled with an iterative feature on contraband. Torfi was concerned that,
currently, smuggling contraband & boosters doesn’t feel like the shady business practice it is.
Additionally, the fact that NPCs play a large role in policing boosters does limit gameplay. Putting that policing into the hands of players, as well as making Establishments the venue for booster sales, would be a successful iterative feature.
If they're not even doing that it makes this alleged expansion even more worthless. Is it really considered alright to just fix things and alter things and call it an 'expansion'?
I see - I read it the way that only the policing itself will be done by players and that the "establishments" in which this stuff will be sold are only a fancy 3d equivalent of the market/contracts window (so you set up orders in the store but share it with all other traders and do not own or operate the establishment). But seeing how "agile" CCP is they themselves do probably not know at this point in time how this feature will eventually look like. |
dgastuffz
Caldari
Hell's Revenge |
Posted - 2011.07.12 18:17:00 - [ 56]
Edited by: dgastuffz on 12/07/2011 18:24:21no low sec or Fw in the summit so useless  ( for me ) all i see addresd is stuff the csm are intersted in nothing else |
Ryunosuke Kusanagi |
Posted - 2011.07.12 18:18:00 - [ 57]
(Part 2)
Future of EVE (LOCAL) - a new skill could work well here, Ideally, you could do Lvl 1: Corp, lvl 2: Alliance, lvl 3: Friendlies (+ standings), Lvl 4: Neutrals, Lvl 5: hostiles. That could work I think. Or having a POS module to work for this is actually Ideal, a "Space Communications Array" or some such. Seeing as Empire Space has Comm networks, 0.0 systems could also have their own Comm networks, based on Sov obviously.
Nex Store: Having Clothing items non-destructable is a good thing in the long run, as it does not ... inhibit players from pvp'ing while keeping their Hello Kitty panties on. :)
Professions. I cannot say for new players, but for an older player myself, I have access to different professions. However, when I am ratting or running missions, I usually take the most effective ship with the least amount of loss, risk vs reward. As for PvP, I take generally, what is needed by fleets.
CCP's inability to communicate - well, this is tricky for me to argue, on one hand, I know that alot of devs play the game, but alternatively, I feel that alot of higher ups and marketing do not, and what is dictated, is the red-line.
Overview - ya, it is kinda clunky for the new player, but for some of the older players, it isnt all bad, you just need to know how to work it, like, explaining how to adjust overview settings, etc.
EVE Homogeny - well on one hand, capsuleers are by nature, wanderers, we go from region to region, empires to empires, and pick up different aspects of cultures, much like a wanderer IRL.
Missiles - Makes sense to change how they work, it makes little sense when a missile goes through a roid to hit a rat that is hiding behind it.
Distant Visions - All of these are good ideas, the idea of Asteroid "belts" that are more like asteroid "Fields" is one thing that bugged me for the longest time.
EVE/Dust Link - The vision I have for this, is this, yes you could do the Eve/dust corpration links, we could interact via station (when Establishments are well... established)
Marketing - MT/Subscriptions and EVE. NOW that I read the CSM Minutes, I can understand why CCP is moving towards a MT SUPPLEMENT and not a replacement. Props to the CSM's for Mocking Zinfandel for not only Playing WoW, but paying RL cash for a Sparkle Pony :). But, I do understand where Zin is coming from. My take on it is this, if you don't like it, don't participate in it, it's not vital to the game :)
Clothing - WHAT NO FURRIES IN EVE YET? RAGE! (J/k) I understand that there is a technical issue with trying to put male clothes on female bodies, its a lot harder to do in a video game than in real life. Question, will there be an option in the customization to search specifically for AURUM Items?
QA - One idea for more testing on SISI/Duality would be a small Aurum bonus on your Tranq acct. Nothing too big, but do it enough, you might get enough for a low-tier item? Turnover: Question: do the people leaving go on to do dev work? maybe you could shuffle people from dev work to QA for say, 6 mmonths, maybe a year tops? Better Bug Reporting tools is needed I think, something to say, Yes we know this is a problem, it is widely known, which server it happened on (A big difference between Tranq bugs and SiSi bugs).
|
Pure Tabasco |
Posted - 2011.07.12 18:22:00 - [ 58]
|
Vincent Athena |
Posted - 2011.07.12 18:24:00 - [ 59]
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
.....
It's actually the other way around. We've been heavily borrowing resources from projects like WoD for EVE.
CCP Soundwave: This is actually where there seems to be a major disconnect between players and CCP. What we see is: Playerview: The money comes from Eve. Some of that money is diverted from Eve to WoD. Then you come in and say "We've been heavily borrowing resources from projects like WoD", but all you are doing is bringing money back to Eve that should never have been taken in the first place! Its eve's money, don't take it away then claim you are helping by bringing some of it back. All the money made by eve should go to running and improving eve. If CCP thinks WoD is a money maker, then convince a bank and get a loan to finance it. Sure shared game components can share money, as long as its shared equally to the benefit to each game. /playerview Now is thats what is happening? Or is something else happening? |
Zarnak Wulf |
Posted - 2011.07.12 18:38:00 - [ 60]
So many things need help in Eve that no matter what direction CCP goes in some will be upset. I'm happy about possible changes to local and a supercarrier nerf being on the table. I'd like to see more then one dude on ship balancing. Especially when CCP Tallest hasn't been heard from since June 23rd. |
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