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Nerodon
Gallente
Incapsulated Reality
Posted - 2011.07.12 17:51:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Yarrrrrhh
Originally by: Vice Admiral Spreadsheet
Originally by: Yarrrrrhh
Snake Sets cost multiple times the amount of what a monocle costs. People still use them. People fly faction fit Golems which have a paper tank as well, which are worth a lot more than monocles.

The whole argument of "if NeX would be destructible nobody would buy it" is just utter bull****, disproven by items in game right now that are worth more than them.

Snake sets improve your combat ability. They have a use.
People fly faction fit Golems because faction modules are more efficient or powerful.

The second part of your post is completely irrelevant. Useless monocles are not Estamel Invulnerability fields.

Monocles give an instant 500% bonus on ****ing people off. They're not useless you peasant.


Sounds like a personal problem...
You want to destroy them because you don't like monocles, they **** you off... Boohoo...
Stop trolling these forums, you're awful at it.

The only "bad" part of keeping these items indestructible is that people like you can't enjoy smashing them to bits... But what if it wasn't a monocle? How would you even be able to tell that he's got vanity shoes or pants? Are you going to look at every avatar pic in the hopes to get a glimpse of what shirt he's wearing? Come on, be serious! You're just a whining arse who cries when he doesn't get what he wants!

Now to be on topic, I'm very eager to attend this CSM Q/A!

Neftaran
Posted - 2011.07.12 18:10:00 - [62]
 

Edited by: Neftaran on 12/07/2011 18:11:05
I could not care less what a CSM has to say or 'not' say.

Abelard Nightbringer
New Foundation
Posted - 2011.07.12 18:29:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Neftaran
Edited by: Neftaran on 12/07/2011 18:11:05
I could not care less what a CSM has to say or 'not' say.


I am very interested in hearing your clear, concise knowledge. please, teach me.


and Yaahhhr, i see what youre saying, you think people will have no problem spending money on ridiculously overpriced vanity items. The problem is, youre quite wrong. Even going back to you RISK/REWARD nonsense, there is NO reward to having a 2b isk shirt/pants/eyepiece combo on your character when u pvp, shuttle around, stationspin...err station-door in Jita. Even bringing up multi-billion isk snake implants, or multi-billoin isk ships in some attempt to compare how expensive things can get in pvp.... completely shows u miss the point CCP is trying to convey. Sure, my pvp char has billions upon billions of ships/implants/mods, and the entire purpose of HAVING those things is to hold a greater chance of achieving my objective. killing, while not dying. Clothes in no way will decrease my chance at dying, and if anything, make the chance go UP, with the griefer-fun to be had even if/if not the clothes were destructible. would i, with 2b isk in my head, at least 1.5b isk on my hull, waste yet another 1.5b in space-dressup if i know i can lose it? no. no i would not. no reward. all risk.

Indestructible clothes? sure, why not, i got the isk!!

CCP wins.

Blood Fart
Posted - 2011.07.12 18:40:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow

Originally by: Cyaxares II
Unless you want to argue "if CCP does not earn enough with vanity items they will start selling convenience and advantages"... Rolling Eyes

I would prefer there to be a strong precedent in place, to reduce future temptation. Twisted Evil




You apparently don't know how a precedent is set. They sell indestructible items in a game where everything is destructible. Regardless of what that item is the precedent is that it can and will be done to more and more items to get as many people as possible to buy.

Precedents on slippery slopes are worthless when the bottom line is the determining factor.....period.


Shame on the people who voted for this buffoon.

SkinSin
Posted - 2011.07.12 18:42:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Edited by: Trebor Daehdoow on 12/07/2011 16:32:08
Given the events of recent days, the CSM is overdue for a Fireside Chat. Join us for a free-format Q&A about the May & June Summits -- we'll try to answer your questions in a Fearless manner.

Date: Saturday, July 16
Time: 20:00 EVE
Mumble Server: csm6.org (default port, no configuration necessary; server will not be live until 24 hours prior)

In addition, UAxDEATH will hold a Russian-language Fireside Chat on his TeamSpeak3 server located at voice.legionofdeath.info on Sunday July 17th at 19:00 EVE.

Your Humble Servant,
Trebor Daehdoow
Secretary of the 6th Council of Stellar Management

Posted by Order of His Eminence, The Chairman.

PS: May Summit minutes are now available, they will be required reading.


Honestly, I'm getting sick of asking, this is like the 4th 5th (?) time I've asked, but can we PLEASE get a transcript of the fireside chats. I CANNOT listen to the fireside chats because I am DEAF.

Dante Marcellus
Minmatar
Belligerent Underpayed Tactical Team
Posted - 2011.07.12 19:23:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: AnzacPaul
does csm know how vanity items survive being podkilled? Cause ccp wont answer my thread :(


NAKED.

IN.

YOUR.

POD.

Yarrrrrhh
Posted - 2011.07.12 19:28:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Dante Marcellus
Originally by: AnzacPaul
does csm know how vanity items survive being podkilled? Cause ccp wont answer my thread :(


NAKED.

IN.

YOUR.

POD.
What about monocles?

Nerodon
Gallente
Incapsulated Reality
Posted - 2011.07.12 19:47:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Yarrrrrhh
Originally by: Dante Marcellus
Originally by: AnzacPaul
does csm know how vanity items survive being podkilled? Cause ccp wont answer my thread :(


NAKED.

IN.

YOUR.

POD.
What about monocles?


Have you considered that maybe they are removable?
Oh and, why isn't there any up in space?

Man, I'll say it again, you're really bad at trolling.

AllYourBaseAre BelongToUs
Posted - 2011.07.12 21:39:00 - [69]
 

Last (and only other) fireside chat was nothing but The Mittani Show. Will be skipping it this time. Really don't feel like wasting couple hours of my life listening to that total complete dumb ass.

Morganta
Posted - 2011.07.12 21:57:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: Yarrrrrhh
What a load of bull****. If you want to generate income you create DESTRUCTIBLE ITEMS SO THEY CAN BE BLOWN UP SO PEOPLE HAVE TO BUY NEW ONES.

With respect, I must disagree.

1) Non-destructible items can be sold at higher prices than destructible ones (although we can all agree that the prices CCP settled upon were in most cases wrong).

2) There are broadly speaking two populations in EVE -- Carebears who rarely get podded, and thus rarely would have to rebuy their destructible clothes, and PvPers who are always getting podded, and thus (given the annoyance-factor of having to undress/redress) would rarely buy them in the first place. Nobody who is getting podded every week is going to buy a monocle.

Thus, by making clothing non-destructible, you increase your income from both groups.

Originally by: Cyaxares II
Unless you want to argue "if CCP does not earn enough with vanity items they will start selling convenience and advantages"... Rolling Eyes

I would prefer there to be a strong precedent in place, to reduce future temptation. Twisted Evil

Originally by: Yarrrrrhh
What is revenue-optimal? There. See what I just did? I just called him out on using a completely meaningless term.

It is the set of conditions and prices that generates the greatest income. I have some small experience with pricing of goods with little or no marginal cost-of-goods-sold; you may be interested in a brief paper I wrote on the subject over a decade ago; not entirely on point, but there are analogies.


with respect Amazon disagrees.
they have been quite successful going for volume over markup. Sure nobody wants to pay 60 bucks for a destructible item, but would people pay 5 bucks for a destructible item? Probably.

And market saturation means nothing if the cheap item is destructible or suffers from decay, only people who refrain from playing eve will keep their swag while the others will lose and purchase more.

Going for the jugular is just stupid, vanity items will be in demand always so why not be smart about it and go for volume sales over gutting the players wallet on a one shot deal?

Yarrrrrhh
Posted - 2011.07.12 22:10:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Morganta
Going for the jugular is just stupid, vanity items will be in demand always so why not be smart about it and go for volume sales over gutting the players wallet on a one shot deal?
Oh no you didn't. You did not just call CCP and Trebor stupid for not understanding micro-transactions, the long tail effect and how to adequately price vanity items in that context.

YOU DID NOT CALL THEM STUPID!


... or did you.

Ricochet Creed
Royal Amarr Institute
Posted - 2011.07.12 22:52:00 - [72]
 

Ill call them weapons grade stupid on vanity pricing. They had it close with destructable, just also needed plex to break into 35000 aur at current pricing.

I completely understand the hobby analogy, but bait and switching new subs, or gosh people who invested years into the game are actually correct no matter how vehemently the csm is apathetic on the topic, or ccp protecting the markets. They are wrong and subscriber numbers will prove it.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.07.12 23:03:00 - [73]
 

Pointless, much like that emergency summit you had and the CSM as a whole.

Congrats. Very Happy

Cooper Anderson Stewart
Caldari
Casalt Corp
Posted - 2011.07.12 23:07:00 - [74]
 

Just read through the well detailed minutes. Thank you for so much clarity.

I would love to get more feedback from the csm on where they feel ccp betrayed trust, and we sit at the current toxic environment.

I would love to speak to the much valued NPE, as i just started in late march of this year and am on the fence about keeping my 2 accounts. I see nothing in the gooey center of development, just a lot of totally new trial account conversions and bitter vet retention.

Example..

3 month old player who plays on daily basis attempts joining corp and doing incursion, mining in hisec, only to be wardecced and killed against our will.
Negotiated ransom with their ceo only to have them cancel wardec, then repeatedly get killed for 24 hours thanks to ccp bug? Cancel means cancel right? Ccp cant fix dishonorable douch e bag s but they can cancel something as advertised right? This alone has cost ccp 4 accounts of the highly valued new players.

?..or are we just quickhit cashcows and churn is predictable? Why not make wardec avail only in low sec and null. Didnt i just read in the minutes lowsec is pointless? Unless you call gatecamping amamake for minmatar carebears the desired result because you wont retain people trying to get into the game if they are permanently injured psychologically the first 10 times or so they try. Think mma world champ fighting...you. over. And over. Hurts dont it. Come to washington and ill demonstrate.

Shova Kais
Caldari
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
Posted - 2011.07.12 23:48:00 - [75]
 

Edited by: Shova Kais on 12/07/2011 23:50:18
Originally by: Cooper Anderson Stewart
Just read through the well detailed minutes. Thank you for so much clarity.

I would love to get more feedback from the csm on where they feel ccp betrayed trust, and we sit at the current toxic environment.

I would love to speak to the much valued NPE, as i just started in late march of this year and am on the fence about keeping my 2 accounts. I see nothing in the gooey center of development, just a lot of totally new trial account conversions and bitter vet retention.

Example..

3 month old player who plays on daily basis attempts joining corp and doing incursion, mining in hisec, only to be wardecced and killed against our will.
Negotiated ransom with their ceo only to have them cancel wardec, then repeatedly get killed for 24 hours thanks to ccp bug? Cancel means cancel right? Ccp cant fix dishonorable douch e bag s but they can cancel something as advertised right? This alone has cost ccp 4 accounts of the highly valued new players.

?..or are we just quickhit cashcows and churn is predictable? Why not make wardec avail only in low sec and null. Didnt i just read in the minutes lowsec is pointless? Unless you call gatecamping amamake for minmatar carebears the desired result because you wont retain people trying to get into the game if they are permanently injured psychologically the first 10 times or so they try. Think mma world champ fighting...you. over. And over. Hurts dont it. Come to washington and ill demonstrate.


Lowsec is far from pointless for the people that live there. YARRRR!!

GFs happen all the time in my area.

XIRUSPHERE
Gallente
Deadly Intent.
Posted - 2011.07.13 00:06:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: Mel Civire
Why does some rich **** get special treatment for a novelty trinket over my implants?

I (personally) would argue that the difference is that your implants have in-game effects.

The whole point of the NEX store is to generate income. Non-destructible clothes are almost certainly revenue-optimal. And clearly, non-destructible items cannot be allowed to have in-game effects without breaking the sandbox.

Put all these things together and non-destructibility is the best route for sandbox purists, because it draws a line in the sand, so to speak.


I would call HG clones vanity, quite a few people undock with them regularly. You speak of terms of convenience with having to remove things but I have to wait 24 hours between switching out of my various clones into something more suitable for varied situations. What exactly is the point of such an isk sink when you violate mechanics and allow for the purchase to be permanent.

Akara Ito
Amarr
Kriegsmarinewerft
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.07.13 00:48:00 - [77]
 

Edited by: Akara Ito on 13/07/2011 00:49:34
Originally by: Hiram Alexander
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: AnzacPaul
does csm know how vanity items survive being podkilled? Cause ccp wont answer my thread :(

They do this because if worn clothing was destructible, nobody would ever undock wearing any NEX-store goods.


Not at the current prices, you're right... However, at the current prices I'd imagine that almost no-one's going to buy them anyway...

Honestly, I've said it before, I think the whole pricing structure is absolutely pathetic. Indestructible clothes have no place in (my) EVE.

If the prices were cut right down, so that the transactions were actually "micro", I'd have no problem at all risking Nex goodies in pvp; hell it'd only add to the thrill.


If they make them destructible and lower the prices they lose money.
At the current prices everybody can buy them as there's no risk. If they cut the prices to lets say 10 % and make them destructible, all people who live in empire will spend a lot less money on this stuff and wont have to replace it anyway because they dont lose pods.
I'd like to have it cheaper and destructible and I'd probably buy it in this case myself but it's not going to happen if it lowers CCPs income.
And from an RP standpoint, its more resonable to pay like a half a billion for a lifelong licence for a shirt (as capsuleers will live forever) than paying 50 Million for a single shirt.

daddys helper
Posted - 2011.07.13 01:20:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Akara Ito
Edited by: Akara Ito on 13/07/2011 00:49:34
Originally by: Hiram Alexander
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: AnzacPaul
does csm know how vanity items survive being podkilled? Cause ccp wont answer my thread :(

They do this because if worn clothing was destructible, nobody would ever undock wearing any NEX-store goods.


Not at the current prices, you're right... However, at the current prices I'd imagine that almost no-one's going to buy them anyway...

Honestly, I've said it before, I think the whole pricing structure is absolutely pathetic. Indestructible clothes have no place in (my) EVE.

If the prices were cut right down, so that the transactions were actually "micro", I'd have no problem at all risking Nex goodies in pvp; hell it'd only add to the thrill.


If they make them destructible and lower the prices they lose money.
At the current prices everybody can buy them as there's no risk. If they cut the prices to lets say 10 % and make them destructible, all people who live in empire will spend a lot less money on this stuff and wont have to replace it anyway because they dont lose pods.
I'd like to have it cheaper and destructible and I'd probably buy it in this case myself but it's not going to happen if it lowers CCPs income.
And from an RP standpoint, its more resonable to pay like a half a billion for a lifelong licence for a shirt (as capsuleers will live forever) than paying 50 Million for a single shirt.


2 words...

decay

Digital Messiah
Gallente
N7 Corporation
PandaMonium.
Posted - 2011.07.13 01:55:00 - [79]
 

And if they were destructible? Would all you whiners be complaining that it is a conspiracy to get more money because people have to buy more of them?!

God it is like you people complain just to complain. I hope you all quit over the monocles, and things you don't have to be involved in, but get upset when others have it. It is as dumb as fighting in kindergarten over a crayon. Seriously start clarifying your opinions. And stop blindly hating on everyone and everything that disagrees with you.

Also be grateful that we even have CSM's and people with a voice outside of the development team. Not to mention they come here and talk with us on their time. Unless I am mistaken they get no pay or special service to do what they do. Show a little gratitude, respect, or at least enough dignity to address them like you would a stranger in public.

Unless of course you act this way at the supermarket, work, or perhaps you are some immature kid? Either way grow up or people will start ignoring you.

Mintala Arana
Amarr
Posted - 2011.07.13 03:07:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
And because nullsec folks tend to be in danger of being podded, this means they would not buy fancy monocles, because they would always be putting them on and taking them off -- too much of a pain.
Must. Find. Pencil.

As far as ship paint jobs is concerned, it probably does apply in some fashion. Who would undock for PvP in a ship with even a $5 paint job? Knowing that they might lose it in the first few seconds? Either paint jobs on ships are dirt cheap (a few cents a ship; $.25 is probably too much in the long run), or they'll wind up being indestructible for the same reason.

AnzacPaul
Perkone
Posted - 2011.07.13 06:54:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Digital Messiah

Seriously start clarifying your opinions.




I have perfect clarity in the question im asking.


Every other item in the game is transportable/destructable and must be transported via a ship.
Many items in Eve cost alot more than a monocle.
You can purchase any item from the Nex store with in game isk, by first purchasing a Plex and converting to Aurum.

Nex items can be equipped to your avatar, then magically disappear as you are naked in your pod as has been said by many, and when you redock you are reclothed again your items are on you. You do not have a "license" to wear the clothes and get them provided to you at each and every station, or at least CCP have never said that, or there is no evidence to support.

Your items are not destroyed if your ship is destroyed and you are wearing them, so they must be in your pod? Ok so if you get podded, the items never drop and you get a brand new set every single time?

I am not a Role player, but I like a consistent game, and HOW DOES THAT MAKE ANY SENSE IN THE CURRENT CONTEXT OF THE GAME? At all?

I dont care about M/T, or the price, but when it starts ****ing with the core parts of the game like making things magically transport across the galaxy and making them indestructible, well isn't the risk of things dying in Eve kind of the point?




Cashcow Golden Goose
Posted - 2011.07.13 08:55:00 - [82]
 

Apparently the monocles and all other items are destructible when in your ship's hold, but not when they are on your face.
So CCPCSM's assertion that people will feel fully robbed is looking like hollow nonsense to cover up that they technically don't want to re-render a person's face when they get pod killed.

I'd wait for an answer, but why get excited over more truthlessness from CCPCSM?

MaiLina KaTar
Posted - 2011.07.13 09:20:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Yarrrrrhh
Originally by: Serwrath
Edited by: Serwrath on 12/07/2011 14:55:18
By following that logic we should all have to buy new clothes (starter ones too) EVERYTIME we get podded; and don't try to say "Oh, but they are stater clothes so they should be free!" 'cause it makes no sense when some of the starter ones look better then the NeX ones. If you grant me this then I agree to your argument.
...It doesn't make sense as it is right now. At all. Shoes for the price of multiple battleships just don't make sense. No matter how you twist it...

Apart from the other drivel I gotta agree on this.

The pricing for NEX items is pretty insane. It creates this disconnect where you're scratching your head thinking "Okay now why would I pay multiple battleships worth of isk for a pair of pixel shoes?!".

They'd have to cut the price tenfold for this to make sense. And I think Nex would work better that way as I believe people would be a hell of a lot more eager to buy some of the stuff if an item would cost like a dollar max.

Prince Kobol
Posted - 2011.07.13 09:41:00 - [84]
 

The high price was a great move by CCP.

Most MT in Game Store have a couple of very high price vanity items that only a few will every buy.

Right now CCP will be watching the sales of the space pirate eye patch and as long they are selling the price will remain the same.

At some point the sales will drop off because everybody who is prepared to pay that amount would of brought one.

At this point you most likely see the price for the pirate eye patch drop and a new expensive item appear, and so on and so forth.

As for the whole they should be destructible, unless the items only cost pence, they will not sell. Most people will not buy vanity items that they can lose because somebody decides they does not like the colour of their pants and ganks them.

The biggest mistake CCP made was when they introduced the store they only had a few items. They should of had at least 20 - 30 low priced items with the launch.


Portmanteau
Gallente
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2011.07.13 10:18:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Akara Ito

If they make them destructible and lower the prices they lose money.
At the current prices everybody can buy them as there's no risk. If they cut the prices to lets say 10 % and make them destructible, all people who live in empire will spend a lot less money on this stuff and wont have to replace it anyway because they dont lose pods.
I'd like to have it cheaper and destructible and I'd probably buy it in this case myself but it's not going to happen if it lowers CCPs income.
And from an RP standpoint, its more resonable to pay like a half a billion for a lifelong licence for a shirt (as capsuleers will live forever) than paying 50 Million for a single shirt.


I disagree, why ? Because you are forgetting to factor in all the people who may now buy said items because they won't cost silly money.

Smoking Blunts
Posted - 2011.07.13 11:25:00 - [86]
 

came in expecting mittens to be telling peopel to f off, left disapointed

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.07.13 14:54:00 - [87]
 

Someone needs to ask the CSM how they can be stupid enough to think the trace amounts of minerals wormholes produce compared to the bot-fleets of null warrant removing ABC ores from wormholes.

Daytrippers? Bull****. They come into an occupied hole, they leave in a pod, if they're lucky. They come into an unoccupied hole and odds are the Sleeper rats will run most of them off. With only an 18 to 24 hour window into a hole they're not going to put a dent in anything.

Hole residents? Please... with the occasional site we get we mine what we need and tend to use most of it. We're not competing with your nullbots.

What they need to do is push to add moon-goo to wormholes. Let that shake things up a bit.

Luckytania
Gallente
Bullets of Justice
Posted - 2011.07.13 18:31:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
...
1) Non-destructible items can be sold at higher prices than destructible ones (although we can all agree that the prices CCP settled upon were in most cases wrong).
...


Non-destructible items break the RP immersion aspect of the game. Period.

However, try this on for size, the NEX store vanity items are not indestructible.

This issue might be resolvable by some new descriptive text about just what it is you're buying in the NEX store.

You're not really buying a single physical item but rather a lifetime 'service' or 'subscription' for an item of that type and when you're podded they supply you with a new one, wherever needed, every time needed, with no questions asked. They could even spin that as an explanation for why the items cost so much since a Capsuleer's lifetime is unbounded and the prepaid 'item replacement and delivery charges' could be quite  extensive over time.

Takita Yukida
Quo Vadis Domine
Posted - 2011.07.13 18:40:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Yarrrrrhh
Yeah, like we just found out that the person who should be discussing the players stance ...


I'd be glad if you stopped taking position for all of us players. You are just one player and although entitled to your own opinion, you should not assume you speak for all of us.

Whether I agree with your opinion or not, it is just not your place to speak for me (or anyone else); the only ones who might try to do so are the CSM, simply because they are a democratically voted bunch ... you however are NOT.

Zey Nadar
Gallente
Unknown Soldiers
Posted - 2011.07.13 19:09:00 - [90]
 

Edited by: Zey Nadar on 13/07/2011 19:10:36
Edited by: Zey Nadar on 13/07/2011 19:10:02
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: Mel Civire
Why does some rich **** get special treatment for a novelty trinket over my implants?

I (personally) would argue that the difference is that your implants have in-game effects.

The whole point of the NEX store is to generate income. Non-destructible clothes are almost certainly revenue-optimal. And clearly, non-destructible items cannot be allowed to have in-game effects without breaking the sandbox.

Put all these things together and non-destructibility is the best route for sandbox purists, because it draws a line in the sand, so to speak.


Using CCP logic I would think that destructible clothes would force players to buy same clothes quickly again, netting CCP more money? Maybe up the price to 1000$ while were at it?
Oh, wait, people buy these things?

Originally by: Luckytania

Non-destructible items break the RP immersion aspect of the game. Period.


Technically it doesn't since you can manufacture clothes anywhere..


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