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Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.12 10:31:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Trebor Daehdoow on 16/07/2011 19:37:17
Edited by: Trebor Daehdoow on 12/07/2011 16:32:08
Given the events of recent days, the CSM is overdue for a Fireside Chat. Join us for a free-format Q&A about the May & June Summits -- we'll try to answer your questions in a Fearless manner.

Date: Saturday, July 16
Time: 20:00 EVE
Mumble Server: csm6.org (default port, no configuration necessary; server will not be live until 24 hours prior). UPDATE: due to DNS issues, use IP address 75.101.186.255 instead of csm6.org if you have problems connecting.

In addition, UAxDEATH will hold a Russian-language Fireside Chat on his TeamSpeak3 server located at voice.legionofdeath.info on Sunday July 17th at 19:00 EVE.

Your Humble Servant,
Trebor Daehdoow
Secretary of the 6th Council of Stellar Management

Posted by Order of His Eminence, The Chairman.

PS: May Summit minutes are now available, they will be required reading.

Tiven loves Tansien
Posted - 2011.07.12 10:35:00 - [2]
 

A song of fire and.. wait what?

I'll be there Very Happy

Mel Civire
Posted - 2011.07.12 10:36:00 - [3]
 

Recent days?

Is this just about the endless patching of patches on patches of screwing people in the Oceanic region or just the SOE takeover and MT future.

And honestly, you can't do anything against the will of SOE so why bother?

Tiven loves Tansien
Posted - 2011.07.12 10:38:00 - [4]
 

Hey i found it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIysCj8Sh9Q

Cashcow Golden Goose
Posted - 2011.07.12 10:39:00 - [5]
 

There is still a CSM?
I thought there was just a Mittani now.

I'm a little bit coked up on lies and propaganda right now I'm afraid I won't be in attendance.

AnzacPaul
Perkone
Posted - 2011.07.12 10:41:00 - [6]
 

does csm know how vanity items survive being podkilled? Cause ccp wont answer my thread :(

Neqa'el Uphir
Amarr
PORTAL KOMBAT
Posted - 2011.07.12 10:53:00 - [7]
 

CSM knows more than CCP, as CCP are clueless (like fearless, just not quite the same). They dont answer questions, CSM does. Everything that CSM says can be later denied, as they are not CCP employees. Meanwhile CCP cant even post a decent informative devblog. So i gues.. 10x CSM?

Mel Civire
Posted - 2011.07.12 10:55:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: AnzacPaul
does csm know how vanity items survive being podkilled? Cause ccp wont answer my thread :(
Don't hold your breath waiting for SOE to get back to you.

So is this "chat" just the latest directive from SOE to get us to argue about something, anything not about the last few weeks? Get some attention off SOE and get a couple of wedge issues into the community so we resume the "usual" fighting each other and not them?

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.12 11:08:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: AnzacPaul
does csm know how vanity items survive being podkilled? Cause ccp wont answer my thread :(

They do this because if worn clothing was destructible, nobody would ever undock wearing any NEX-store goods.

And because nullsec folks tend to be in danger of being podded, this means they would not buy fancy monocles, because they would always be putting them on and taking them off -- too much of a pain.

And if CCP decided to address this by making it easy to change clothes (so you had party clothes and work clothes), then apart from the occasional person who forgets to change clothes before undocking, you'd never have an opportunity to grief someone and blow up their monocle anyway.

AFAIK this will not apply to items like ship paintjobs, only to clothes and other bodily adornments.

Mel Civire
Posted - 2011.07.12 11:14:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: AnzacPaul
does csm know how vanity items survive being podkilled? Cause ccp wont answer my thread :(

They do this because if worn clothing was destructible, nobody would ever undock wearing any NEX-store goods.

And because nullsec folks tend to be in danger of being podded, this means they would not buy fancy monocles, because they would always be putting them on and taking them off -- too much of a pain.

And if CCP decided to address this by making it easy to change clothes (so you had party clothes and work clothes), then apart from the occasional person who forgets to change clothes before undocking, you'd never have an opportunity to grief someone and blow up their monocle anyway.

AFAIK this will not apply to items like ship paintjobs, only to clothes and other bodily adornments.
Ummmm hello CSM person.

This is EVE from my recollection, the same place my first Retriever was ganked while mining, missions Ninja'ed and been podded quite a bit in null sec.

Why does some rich **** get special treatment for a novelty trinket over my implants?

It is "fair" or just that SOE (CCP) want to train people into the consequence free land of MT?

Yarrrrrhh
Posted - 2011.07.12 11:25:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: AnzacPaul
does csm know how vanity items survive being podkilled? Cause ccp wont answer my thread :(

They do this because if worn clothing was destructible, nobody would ever undock wearing any NEX-store goods.
That sounds like a very good way to solve all recent problems. Don't let people who buy this crap undock, thus keeping them out of our spaceship game.

It's the perfect solution.

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.12 11:34:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Mel Civire
Why does some rich **** get special treatment for a novelty trinket over my implants?

I (personally) would argue that the difference is that your implants have in-game effects.

The whole point of the NEX store is to generate income. Non-destructible clothes are almost certainly revenue-optimal. And clearly, non-destructible items cannot be allowed to have in-game effects without breaking the sandbox.

Put all these things together and non-destructibility is the best route for sandbox purists, because it draws a line in the sand, so to speak.

AnzacPaul
Perkone
Posted - 2011.07.12 11:35:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: AnzacPaul on 12/07/2011 11:41:16
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: AnzacPaul
does csm know how vanity items survive being podkilled? Cause ccp wont answer my thread :(

They do this because if worn clothing was destructible, nobody would ever undock wearing any NEX-store goods.

And because nullsec folks tend to be in danger of being podded, this means they would not buy fancy monocles, because they would always be putting them on and taking them off -- too much of a pain.

And if CCP decided to address this by making it easy to change clothes (so you had party clothes and work clothes), then apart from the occasional person who forgets to change clothes before undocking, you'd never have an opportunity to grief someone and blow up their monocle anyway.

AFAIK this will not apply to items like ship paintjobs, only to clothes and other bodily adornments.



That makes no sense, thats like saying no one would PVP in an expensive ship/mods because they run the risk of getting blown up.

THATS KINDA THE WHOLE POINT OF EVE.

Even though CCP have stated that making money isnt the point of this (as stated by a dev), the reason that they are willing to implement an item which does not follow the laws of Eve at all for the sake of money?

Didnt this bother you guys at all? Surely the CSM could see how this makes no sense, given that anything else in the game can be destroyed, and you actually are ok with people having items that can magically transport from one station to another?


EDIT: Props to you still Trebor for your quick and detailed reply, so far 2 and a half days and CCP havent explained how vanity items are magically transported from one station to another.

I would really like the same service everytime I shop in Jita, seeing as its somehow possible in the Eve world to do it with vanity items.

Hiram Alexander
Caldari
Capital Enrichment Services
Posted - 2011.07.12 11:38:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: AnzacPaul
does csm know how vanity items survive being podkilled? Cause ccp wont answer my thread :(

They do this because if worn clothing was destructible, nobody would ever undock wearing any NEX-store goods.


Not at the current prices, you're right... However, at the current prices I'd imagine that almost no-one's going to buy them anyway...

Honestly, I've said it before, I think the whole pricing structure is absolutely pathetic. Indestructible clothes have no place in (my) EVE.

If the prices were cut right down, so that the transactions were actually "micro", I'd have no problem at all risking Nex goodies in pvp; hell it'd only add to the thrill.

Mel Civire
Posted - 2011.07.12 11:45:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: Mel Civire
Why does some rich **** get special treatment for a novelty trinket over my implants?

I (personally) would argue that the difference is that your implants have in-game effects.

The whole point of the NEX store is to generate income. Non-destructible clothes are almost certainly revenue-optimal. And clearly, non-destructible items cannot be allowed to have in-game effects without breaking the sandbox.

Put all these things together and non-destructibility is the best route for sandbox purists, because it draws a line in the sand, so to speak.
Doesn't this just contradict what you said about ship paint jobs?

If someone wants to buy a Barbie dress ups from the Space Shopping Network then more power to them. They can look at themselves in their mirror all day long.

However, what if I want to target people wearing Barbie Air Hostess costumes? People either have it with them or not. I can't agree that these things should be magical. After all, I'll be able to target custom painted ships.

Running with your logic might not destroy the sandbox, but it certainly lets the local cats **** in it.

Yarrrrrhh
Posted - 2011.07.12 11:48:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
The whole point of the NEX store is to generate income. Non-destructible clothes are almost certainly revenue-optimal.
What a load of bull****. If you want to generate income you create DESTRUCTIBLE ITEMS SO THEY CAN BE BLOWN UP SO PEOPLE HAVE TO BUY NEW ONES.

You really have no clue about this. It's obvious and you're not doing yourself a favor by pretending you do.

JESUS, they are even talking about built in obsolescence in the fearless newsletter as one of the best things to do. That's the antithesis of indestructible items.

Go away.

Mel Civire
Posted - 2011.07.12 11:52:00 - [17]
 

And this is how the CSM works.

SOE (CCP) party line all the way.

Lady Spank
Amarr
In Praise Of Shadows
Posted - 2011.07.12 11:53:00 - [18]
 

If cost is a factor, maybe they should make implants and officer mods indestructible too. Oh wait, that's a dumb idea, just like arbitrarily setting these items indestructible.

Shepard Book
Posted - 2011.07.12 11:55:00 - [19]
 

Some people are always going to want to find something to complain about… Thank you for the announcement. I am looking forward to those May notes.

Rodion Romanovich Raskolnikov
The Eleusinian Mystery Cult
Posted - 2011.07.12 11:56:00 - [20]
 

Hybrids/Gallente, ja?

Cyaxares II
Posted - 2011.07.12 12:02:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: Mel Civire
Why does some rich **** get special treatment for a novelty trinket over my implants?

I (personally) would argue that the difference is that your implants have in-game effects.

The whole point of the NEX store is to generate income. Non-destructible clothes are almost certainly revenue-optimal. And clearly, non-destructible items cannot be allowed to have in-game effects without breaking the sandbox.

Put all these things together and non-destructibility is the best route for sandbox purists, because it draws a line in the sand, so to speak.

the last sentence sounds nice but doesn't make any sense.

I see how non-destructible clothes are better from a revenue perspective but nothing you said did explain how they are better than fully destructible clothes from the "sandbox purist"'s POV.

Unless you want to argue "if CCP does not earn enough with vanity items they will start selling convenience and advantages"... Rolling Eyes

Yarrrrrhh
Posted - 2011.07.12 12:03:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Shepard Book
Some people are always going to want to find something to complain about…
Yeah, like we just found out that the person who should be discussing the players stance on the economic impacts the latest expansion has on the sandbox does not understand the most basic economic premises and instead repeats CCP's catastrophic and wrong stance.

That's the something we just found. We found out that we're ****ed. Nothing more, nothing less.

Yarrrrrhh
Posted - 2011.07.12 12:06:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Non-destructible clothes are almost certainly revenue-optimal.
I'll make it even easier for everyone to see that Trebor is not competent to discuss this by asking the following question:

What is revenue-optimal?

There. See what I just did? I just called him out on using a completely meaningless term.

Cashcow Golden Goose
Posted - 2011.07.12 12:08:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: Mel Civire
Why does some rich **** get special treatment for a novelty trinket over my implants?

I (personally) would argue that the difference is that your implants have in-game effects.

The whole point of the NEX store is to generate income. Non-destructible clothes are almost certainly revenue-optimal. And clearly, non-destructible items cannot be allowed to have in-game effects without breaking the sandbox.

Put all these things together and non-destructibility is the best route for sandbox purists, because it draws a line in the sand, so to speak.


CSM towing the company line. This is why you're irrelevant.

Kerrisone
Posted - 2011.07.12 12:14:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: AnzacPaul
does csm know how vanity items survive being podkilled? Cause ccp wont answer my thread :(

They do this because if worn clothing was destructible, nobody would ever undock wearing any NEX-store goods.

And because nullsec folks tend to be in danger of being podded, this means they would not buy fancy monocles, because they would always be putting them on and taking them off -- too much of a pain.

And if CCP decided to address this by making it easy to change clothes (so you had party clothes and work clothes), then apart from the occasional person who forgets to change clothes before undocking, you'd never have an opportunity to grief someone and blow up their monocle anyway.

AFAIK this will not apply to items like ship paintjobs, only to clothes and other bodily adornments.


Only for some, well off people wouldn't care, at current stupid nex prices. At reasonable prices more people would undock with clothes accepting it as a risk just as they do with anything they undock with.

Vanity items do have in game effects as well as out of game effects, creating a 'elite' class and relegating those not participating in the dress up to status of 'poor' pod pilots. In a game where you're value could be any number of things Incarna will start out with class divisions to obviously make many look like poor slobs, certainly seems like a great way to make EVE 'real' and increase immersion. Some will care and some won't, in some cases the 'elite' will the butt of many jokes and harassment but in others it will be the reverse this obviously is excellent gameplay to add in EVE and most assuredly extremely important to walking in stations. Rolling Eyes

As far as griefing people it would be more about the grief than the monocle out in space, sort of like blacklisting, cause that is just about the only 'value' NEX pricing/items 'adds' to the game. Chase down the monocle wearers, kill them where you find them, deny them access to your corp, make them pariahs. With their precious nex items safe from being destroyed griefing them nets CCP no extra money from destroyed crap that needs to be replaced.

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.12 12:23:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Yarrrrrhh
What a load of bull****. If you want to generate income you create DESTRUCTIBLE ITEMS SO THEY CAN BE BLOWN UP SO PEOPLE HAVE TO BUY NEW ONES.

With respect, I must disagree.

1) Non-destructible items can be sold at higher prices than destructible ones (although we can all agree that the prices CCP settled upon were in most cases wrong).

2) There are broadly speaking two populations in EVE -- Carebears who rarely get podded, and thus rarely would have to rebuy their destructible clothes, and PvPers who are always getting podded, and thus (given the annoyance-factor of having to undress/redress) would rarely buy them in the first place. Nobody who is getting podded every week is going to buy a monocle.

Thus, by making clothing non-destructible, you increase your income from both groups.

Originally by: Cyaxares II
Unless you want to argue "if CCP does not earn enough with vanity items they will start selling convenience and advantages"... Rolling Eyes

I would prefer there to be a strong precedent in place, to reduce future temptation. Twisted Evil

Originally by: Yarrrrrhh
What is revenue-optimal? There. See what I just did? I just called him out on using a completely meaningless term.

It is the set of conditions and prices that generates the greatest income. I have some small experience with pricing of goods with little or no marginal cost-of-goods-sold; you may be interested in a brief paper I wrote on the subject over a decade ago; not entirely on point, but there are analogies.

MaiLina KaTar
Posted - 2011.07.12 12:26:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 12/07/2011 12:26:56
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Put all these things together and non-destructibility is the best route for sandbox purists, because it draws a line in the sand, so to speak.

The actual reason why these items will remain invincible is really rather simple:
If they were destructible, people would simply undress them before undocking. The consequence would be a lot of stress on the item database and a lot of whining from people who frown at swapping their vanaity **** around all the time to avoid losses.

Making them destructible wouldn't accomplish anything, really. Nobody would gain, devtime would be invested for no tangible effect on gameplay. CPU would be wasted with just as little effect. It would be nothing but a cash sink.

Shepard Book
Posted - 2011.07.12 12:28:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Yarrrrrhh
Originally by: Shepard Book
Some people are always going to want to find something to complain about…
Yeah, like we just found out that the person who should be discussing the players stance on the economic impacts the latest expansion has on the sandbox does not understand the most basic economic premises and instead repeats CCP's catastrophic and wrong stance.

That's the something we just found. We found out that we're ****ed. Nothing more, nothing less.


Everyone has opinions. All you do is try to berate people in most posts you make no matter what the subject. So yeah, I do not listen to a word you say. I believe most people can see through the poison you are trying to spread.

Yarrrrrhh
Posted - 2011.07.12 12:32:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Yarrrrrhh on 12/07/2011 12:40:02
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow

1) Non-destructible items can be sold at higher prices than destructible ones (although we can all agree that the prices CCP settled upon were in most cases wrong).

We're talking about revenue here. Revenue is the product of price times number of sales. Ignoring the second part of the equation does not really improve my view of your economic capabilities.
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow

2) There are broadly speaking two populations in EVE -- Carebears who rarely get podded, and thus rarely would have to rebuy their destructible clothes, and PvPers who are always getting podded, and thus (given the annoyance-factor of having to undress/redress) would rarely buy them in the first place. Nobody who is getting podded every week is going to buy a monocle.
Using this approach anything can be justified. Broadly speaking this is even more bull****, no facts, no statistics, nothing. I'd even argue that there are more than two populations. Broadly speaking, that is.

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow

It is the set of conditions and prices that generates the greatest income. I have some small experience with pricing of goods with little or no marginal cost-of-goods-sold; you may be interested in a brief paper I wrote on the subject over a decade ago; not entirely on point, but there are analogies.
Scanned over it. It's about tipping and intellectual property. Barely any numbers included, no graphs, no formulae, no link to raw data. No references to other scientific papers. And it's three pages long.

You wrote that in school and it does not apply to the topic at hand. You have no clue about this.

The fact that you're even linking to that so called 'paper' to prove your point tells me you're delusional about the amount of your scientific expertise. Thus I repeat my initial point. We're ****ed.

Yarrrrrhh
Posted - 2011.07.12 12:48:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Shepard Book


Everyone has opinions. All you do is try to berate people in most posts you make no matter what the subject. So yeah, I do not listen to a word you say. I believe most people can see through the poison you are trying to spread.
See that's the problem. You think these are opinions and you 'believe' stuff.


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