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Nachshon
Caldari
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2011.07.11 05:26:00 - [1]
 

Normally, any message from me to you would be an insult. But I actually have something serious to discuss.

In light of the Sansha incursions, we militia pilots need to consider that there are worse things than the other side winning - namely, the people we are trying to protect being turned into mindless slaves. What I fear is this scenario: a Sansha force attacks a disputed system - say, Kourmonen. One side mobilizes a fleet to stop it. However, the other side attacks their fleet, resulting in the Sansha incursion being largely unopposed.

To avoid this scenario, I propose the following:

In the event of a Sansha incursion into a system in the Amarr/Minmatar warzone, both sides will declare a ceasefire for the duration of the incursion. 24IC ships will be allowed free passage through Minmatar-occupied space, and TLF ships will be allowed free passage through Amarr-occupied space. Fleet commanders on both sides will coordinate as best they can. Once the incursion is over, both sides will withdraw to their pre-incursion positions, at which point we resume killing each other.

I am not in this war for money. I am in this war because I believe in the cause of the Republic. I know there are many on the other side who believe in the cause of the Empire. But I am not so blinded by hatred as to let the very people I am fighting for suffer in the name of inflicting damage upon the enemy. If the 24th mobilizes against Sansha, I will not stop them. In fact, I would be willing to fly with them against our common enemy. I hope you will have the good sense to do the same.

Kithrus
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.11 05:44:00 - [2]
 

I must applaud this wisdom at the Matari's part. I would like then to formally invite leaders of both Factions in the war to please contact me so CLRGY my act as a arbitor to these talks.

The Sansha are a real threat to both of us and its only fair we work together to achive sansha's end even in the smallest ways.

Nachshon
Caldari
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2011.07.11 05:46:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Kithrus
I must applaud this wisdom at the Matari's part. I would like then to formally invite leaders of both Factions in the war to please contact me so CLRGY my act as a arbitor to these talks.

The Sansha are a real threat to both of us and its only fair we work together to achive sansha's end even in the smallest ways.


*chuckles* Sadly, the militias lack anything resembling a leadership. Also, no offense, but I don't think many on our side would accept CVA as an arbitrator.

Kithrus
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.11 05:51:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Kithrus on 11/07/2011 05:51:42
Originally by: Nachshon
Originally by: Kithrus
I must applaud this wisdom at the Matari's part. I would like then to formally invite leaders of both Factions in the war to please contact me so CLRGY my act as a arbitor to these talks.

The Sansha are a real threat to both of us and its only fair we work together to achive sansha's end even in the smallest ways.


*chuckles* Sadly, the militias lack anything resembling a leadership. Also, no offense, but I don't think many on our side would accept CVA as an arbitrator.


I suppose they do not but I'm sure if I gathered the leaders of the larger Amarrian ones say just of the top of my head... PIE and KotMC and you brought who you felt best then maybe there would be a trickle down effect.

Also CVA has long stood for bringing stability to the Empire and CLRGY's main role is to unite the amarrian factions for a unified purpose. If nothing else you have little to lose talking on a FTL channel.

Nur AlHuda
Amarr
Callide Vulpis
Posted - 2011.07.11 06:26:00 - [5]
 

The proposal sounds fair. As corp in the amarr militia we would be not against it. However i think each large corp would need to say its stance.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.11 07:25:00 - [6]
 

In my view the Shakorites are as much of a menace to decent Amarrians as the Sansha.

Gosakumori Noh
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2011.07.11 08:00:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake
In my view the Shakorites are as much of a menace to decent Amarrians as the Sansha.


Perhaps, though the opportunity cost of pointing guns at Nation is not pointing them at someone else. Consequently, within an incursion, the menace posed to one another is greatly reduced.

Serenity Frye
Gallente
Heretic Army
B A N E
Posted - 2011.07.11 08:32:00 - [8]
 

Be warned, any aggression towards the honourable Sansha's Nation will be dealt with.

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.07.11 10:56:00 - [9]
 

This has already more or less happened in the past when the first incursions here happened in Auga and Kamela. The best thing we could do was a mutual understanding where one side was to ignore the other side and let him "clean" his own system of the Sansha threat. And even with that in mind we still had "ninja" rogues that were lurking around to get easy kills.

Telling rogue militia people to fight along each other against a common threat is pure utopia.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.07.11 13:10:00 - [10]
 

Captain Nachshon,

I commend your clarity in this situation. It would be my heartfelt desire to see cooperation of this magnitude in light of these incursions.

It will be difficult to convince both sides to set aside their distrust/hatred of one another in order to earnestly cooperate and then allow a fall back to previous positions without someone seeing an opportunity to dismantle the other. As sad as that may be, it is an unfortunate truth.

For what little it may be worth, I will cooperate to the best of my ability.

Mra Rednu
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.11 13:34:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Lyn Farel

Telling rogue militia people to fight along each other against a common threat is pure utopia.


Unsure how you can call the militia pilots who keep shooting at the enemies rogue.

Or is there some motive behind this, some profit somewhere to be had ?

Avrose Warden
Posted - 2011.07.11 13:51:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Avrose Warden on 11/07/2011 13:51:14
Originally by: Mra Rednu
Originally by: Lyn Farel

Telling rogue militia people to fight along each other against a common threat is pure utopia.


Unsure how you can call the militia pilots who keep shooting at the enemies rogue.

Or is there some motive behind this, some profit somewhere to be had ?


I think the heritics are better burnt

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.07.11 14:00:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Avrose Warden
Edited by: Avrose Warden on 11/07/2011 13:51:14
Originally by: Mra Rednu
Originally by: Lyn Farel

Telling rogue militia people to fight along each other against a common threat is pure utopia.


Unsure how you can call the militia pilots who keep shooting at the enemies rogue.

Or is there some motive behind this, some profit somewhere to be had ?


I think the heritics are better burnt


I believe you are missing the point, Warden.

The point being made here by the Matari captain is that if we fail to recognize the threat of Nation and lay aside hostilities during incursions, you are adding an additional front to your war, which makes you vulnerable.

Consider an incursion in Kourmonen, right now. The Amarr Militia would rally a fleet to repel the incursion. Then, from Auga, a Matari fleet capitalizes on the Amarr fleet's distraction against Nation and destroys any stragglers or damaged vessels that are engaged against Nation.

Now the Amarr fleet is caught dealing with Nation and the Matari, which will leave it quickly overpowered, or at least sustaining substantially more loss in the process. Now it is not the "heretics" that are burning, it is your own people.

You can reverse the situation and have the Matari be the ones getting flanked, a situation which Captain Nachshon here is hoping to avoid by fostering in a temporary cease-fire during incursions so that both sides may focus on defending their people first and foremost - which should be the first priority.

tagen young
Caldari
The Night Witch
Posted - 2011.07.11 19:25:00 - [14]
 


With regret this is simply not workable.

Neither militia has a united command structure and there are many pilots who consider destroying their long standing enemy over all else. I have seen on occasion the minmatar and amarr militia attempting to work together against the pirate menace and it decend in bloody chaos.


Pol Macsliebh
Minmatar
Sarz'na Khumatari
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2011.07.11 19:57:00 - [15]
 

I ponder a return to The TLF so I can kick some Amarrians in the face while shooting Sansha.




Kithrus
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.11 20:57:00 - [16]
 

I wonder... Hmmm peace starts with the most simple requests from the smallest person and if theres even one faction in the Matari who earnestly want to end the war we should pursue it.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.11 21:33:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Rodj Blake on 11/07/2011 21:35:22
Originally by: Kithrus
I wonder... Hmmm peace starts with the most simple requests from the smallest person and if theres even one faction in the Matari who earnestly want to end the war we should pursue it.


You're forgetting that the war isn't between capsuleer corporations or alliances, it's between the Republic and the Empire.

As such, it's not up to you, or me, or any other podder to consider peace until such time as we are instructed to by our betters.

Mitara Newelle
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.11 22:11:00 - [18]
 

My enemy, who is also an enemy of another of my enemies, is still my enemy.


Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Kumiho's Smile
Posted - 2011.07.11 22:20:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Aria Jenneth on 11/07/2011 22:20:59

Though the reasons for these wars and the impossibility of joint action are clear enough, when I see proposals such as this one inevitably shot down I can't help feeling that playing proxy to the empires is going to get us all killed.

Or worse.

Eran Mintor
Minmatar
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.07.11 22:41:00 - [20]
 

I am not at all surprised to see PIE inc. reactions from their leadership, however rest assured that KotMC will be willing to negotiate a non-aggression pact temporarily to eliminate pirate elements, including Sansha incursions in our area of operations. You have my word as an old wingman, Nachson.

Do not expect a NAP with the entire militia though; as has been pointed out, there is no core leadership for the militias and everyone should be handled on a case by case basis.

Gosakumori Noh
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2011.07.12 00:34:00 - [21]
 

Every Nation hull absorbing a shell or beam acts as an ablative layer between the empires, and a protocol for facilitating such use of Nation resources would seem a positive political economy.

However, if the need for such cooperation is not currently apparent, it might be helpful to define circumstances which would merit consideration of common action.

Would an invasion of an empire system - entailing the removal of that system from empire sovereignty, the destruction of empire stations within the system, the establishment of Nation stations, and the occupation of planetary assets by Nation forces - rise to a level in which one might say Nation represented a greater threat than the opposing empire?

Nachshon
Caldari
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2011.07.12 09:32:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Kithrus
I wonder... Hmmm peace starts with the most simple requests from the smallest person and if theres even one faction in the Matari who earnestly want to end the war we should pursue it.


I doubt that peace will be easy to obtain. I for one seek not an return to the status quo antebellum, but victory, namely the liberation of the slaves within the Empire.

However, I do recognize that the evils that the Empire inflicts upon my adopted people are nothing compared to the horrors carried out by the Nation. The Empire may hold their bodies in bondage, but their minds are still their own.

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.07.12 12:07:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Mra Rednu
Originally by: Lyn Farel

Telling rogue militia people to fight along each other against a common threat is pure utopia.


Unsure how you can call the militia pilots who keep shooting at the enemies rogue.

Or is there some motive behind this, some profit somewhere to be had ?


In consideration of the common standards that were expressly set and agreed temporarily by both militia groups when this happened, they were rogue.

In consideration of the Militia rules of engagement, they were definitly not rogue.

And this is precisely my point.

Sidenote : I will be the first one to work on NAP agreements when they are needed, in line with the Knighthood.

Conventia Underking
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.18 21:49:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Mitara Newelle
My enemy, who is also an enemy of another of my enemies, is still my enemy.


I agree with the Admiral.


 

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