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Larla Rosethorn
Minmatar
Renegade Pleasure Androids
Posted - 2011.07.10 21:04:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Larla Rosethorn on 22/08/2011 07:29:33
archon: ridiculous uber carrier.. can fit 2 local reps + 4 remote and sustain either (20k local dps repped on heat, holy cow) or 2 remotes in triage while having over 72% armor resists and guess, 1337600 ehp with 2 imperial eanm and dc II.. 1337 = coincidence or intentional CCP clue? Not even adding in slaves here.
thanatos: 1 local + 4 remote with 70% resist, dps bonus
nidhoggur: can not fit 4 remote + local armor with comparable resists or cap. cannot sustain 2 triage reppers without suicide fit.
cannot fit more than 2 remote + local shield (shields are generally nerfed into oblivion on caps and Nidhoggur shield fits are especially horrible)

Also Nidhoggur has a much weaker sensor (important for a carrier) (but has completely useless for a triage carrier velocity and sig radius advantages). It really looks like there was nearly zero thought put into design of this carrier and some arbitrary numbers were pulled from thin air by CCP and left at that.

basically nid is equivalent to missing a slot in an armor fleet, completely useless in a shield fleet and even with rep bonus it is worse than either one of the other caps. Either the remote rep bonus needs to go up to 10% or it needs a 15% PG boost to be anywhere near on par with other carriers.

From the replies I think so far the consensus is that Nighoggur sucks quite a bit compared to other carriers and it's not that important that other minmatar ships are FoTM but its more important to have racial balance per ship class. I agree with the latter because once people invested skill points into minmatar they should be able to have a niche they fill in the fleet rather than after training for months and investing significant cash into racial books (360m isk for minnie carrier)they are faced with a rude awakening that their ship is simply inferior to other races and there's nothing they can do about it and there's no way they can be as useful in the fleet as other carriers.

I think what CCP should do is just like with other ships, give Nidhoggur a niche it excels at. That way players will be encouraged to train multiple carriers and keep interest in the game. Right now Nidhoggur is inferior in every possible situation, it has no use.

P.S. does CCP pay any attention to these threads?

Another idea could be to make it into a "mini" non-triage carrier, reduce sig significantly, increase speed, reduce mass so it can kind of speed tank. It's already flimsy enough so no further armor/shield nerf is needed. Make ships different for god's sake have some imagination. Bonuses on carriers right now are so boring, there's so much room for making ships more interesting and having their niche.

Another idea could be to make it cheaper to produce.. not 10% like it is now but another 25-30%. So it will have a niche as a suckier but much cheaper carrier at around 400-450m i think it will be a pretty attractive option. Full fit will still be expensive though. And refund the difference to all existing Nidhoggur owners at current market prices.

Malak Starfire
Posted - 2011.07.10 21:59:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Malak Starfire on 10/07/2011 22:03:39
Edited by: Malak Starfire on 10/07/2011 22:02:45
Shield Fit Niddy's should have 3 PDS which will cover that 15% PG it needs along with boosting its shield tank.


Larla Rosethorn
Minmatar
Renegade Pleasure Androids
Posted - 2011.07.11 02:40:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Malak Starfire
Edited by: Malak Starfire on 10/07/2011 22:03:39
Edited by: Malak Starfire on 10/07/2011 22:02:45
Shield Fit Niddy's should have 3 PDS which will cover that 15% PG it needs along with boosting its shield tank.




it's CPU limited for shields..........................................................

King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
Posted - 2011.07.11 05:10:00 - [4]
 

If you're using PDU's on a niddy, you're doing it wrong. Should be using CPR's instead (for triage atleast). In any case I do agree it's a bit short on PG. None of the carriers can perma-run more than 2 reps and the niddy is no exception. In fact it's really not that different all things considered once you factor in cap recharge/slot layout. But it should have the option of fitting a 3rd rep for burst usage (or splitting with 2x armor and 1 shield or whatever) like the other carriers have.

CPU is another problem but that comes up with any shield tanked carrier. The niddy, thanny and chimera cannot fit a typical style shield tank with 2-3x shield xfers. Either all three need a major CPU increase or the CPU requirements on shield xfers and capital shield boosters need to be greatly reduced. Probably a combination of the two, invulns really eat into CPU as do shield boost amps.

Azura Nester
The Foreign Legion
Posted - 2011.07.11 08:46:00 - [5]
 

hate to tell you this broski but the chimera has CPU issues as well...wait a min, don't they have something in common? oh yeah! they both shield tank!

last time i checked most active shield tanks do have cpu problems. but i do agree, the minmatar caps do need a little love. until then? train for a archon

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.07.11 11:55:00 - [6]
 

wait, you tell there are differences among the races and their ships??? You must be kkidding!!

seriously, stop *****ing about ships being diffrerent, there is already too much uniformity in eve

Medidranda Livoga
Posted - 2011.07.11 12:26:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Robert Caldera
wait, you tell there are differences among the races and their ships??? You must be kkidding!!

seriously, stop *****ing about ships being diffrerent, there is already too much uniformity in eve


Minmatar carriers are too weak and cannot properly use their bonuses without suicide fittings. Archon is better triage repper for gawds sake which is just retarted.

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.07.11 13:13:00 - [8]
 

so what?? Matars carrier is not that good. SO?? Except that minmatar are the best for everything else right in the moment they are FOTM, so please stop complaining just because they arent the best IN EVERYTHING!

Juliette DuBois
Posted - 2011.07.11 13:16:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Robert Caldera
so what?? Matars carrier is not that good. SO?? Except that minmatar are the best for everything else right in the moment they are FOTM, so please stop complaining just because they arent the best IN EVERYTHING!


Stop eating mushrooms. Racial balance is irrelevant. Only thing that matters is balance within category and weapon type balance.

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.07.11 13:55:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Robert Caldera on 11/07/2011 13:56:41

not really.
See the whole picture, if you dont like to, stop making "balance suggestions".

shadowace00007
Amarr
Beyond The Gates
Posted - 2011.07.11 14:43:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Larla Rosethorn
Edited by: Larla Rosethorn on 10/07/2011 21:24:04
Edited by: Larla Rosethorn on 10/07/2011 21:06:10
archon: can fit local rep + 4 remote and sustain either while having over 72% armor resists
thanatos: same with 70% resist
nidhoggur: can not fit 4 remote + local armor with comparable resists or cap.
cannot fit more than 2 remote + local shield

basically nid is equivalent to missing a slot in an armor fleet, completely useless in a shield fleet and even with rep bonus it is worse than either one of the other caps. Either the remote rep bonus needs to go up to 10% or it needs a 15% PG boost to be anywhere near on par with other carriers.



Its a shield boat made to rep an armor fleet. Its better then the other armor armor boats because you can tank more with shields and you have all the extra power grid for more Armor RR. I don't know where your having issues fitting more then 2 reps. I have a fit fitting with more then that.

King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
Posted - 2011.07.11 17:06:00 - [12]
 

That actually sums up my experience with it, the most effective way to remote armor rep is if you're shield tanked and you're better off with an armor tank to rep shields. But that poses all sorts of problems if you have multiple carriers or are trying to use ganglinks. It is a little broken. Not as broken as the chimera but it still needs some fittings love.

As for variety is good, I agree. The archon has 25% more local tank while the niddy RR's 25% better. Or at least that's how it *should* be. In reality that's not really the case since the niddy has to make a lot of fitting sacrifices due to its poor fitting resources and weaker capacitor (less of an issue imho). Ships should be balanced on a class by class basis, not overall by race. I agree that minmatar is a bit FoTM right now but I don't think any of the ships are actually overpowered. It's current player tactics that have made the speed thing appealing. And no, you can't effectively nano a niddy these days. I tried it not too long ago.Laughing

Larla Rosethorn
Minmatar
Renegade Pleasure Androids
Posted - 2011.07.12 01:46:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Larla Rosethorn on 12/07/2011 01:55:25
I think so far the consensus is that Nighoggur sucks quite a bit compared to other carriers and it's not that important that other minmatar ships are FoTM but its more important to have racial balance per ship class. I agree with the latter because once people invested skill points into minmatar they should be able to have a niche they fill in the fleet rather than after training for months and investing significant cash into racial books (360m isk for minnie carrier)they are faced with a rude awakening that their ship is simply inferior to other races and there's nothing they can do about it and there's no way they can be as useful in the fleet as other carriers.

I'd fly an archon but I refuse because it looks atrociously ugly (just my personal opinion). I guess it's time to sink another month and 360m and retrain to Gallente.

P.S. does CCP pay any attention to these threads?

Larla Rosethorn
Minmatar
Renegade Pleasure Androids
Posted - 2011.07.14 18:47:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Larla Rosethorn on 14/07/2011 18:47:43
Very large fraction of the community agrees that Nidhoggur needs a buff. CCP response?

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2011.07.14 19:35:00 - [15]
 

Very large fraction of the community?? You mean some minmatar dudes here in this thread argueing their carrier isnt FOTM like their other ships?
Whatever, since when does CCP care about whats going on in this forum? There was much more crying about the anomaly nerf, anything happened? No.

Larla Rosethorn
Minmatar
Renegade Pleasure Androids
Posted - 2011.07.18 23:02:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Larla Rosethorn on 18/07/2011 23:08:00
Oh, lets see, did we also mention 12% weaker sensor than either Archon or Thanatos?

CCP please comment.

Poppy Slamdek
Posted - 2011.07.19 03:51:00 - [17]
 

This argument has nothing to do with minmatar being FOTM. They've actually been FOTY for about 2 years.

The case is this:

Gal: drone/fighter/fb damage
Amarr: armor tank
Caldari: shield tank
Minmatar: some f**ked up broke-di** tank options and a supposed repping role.

Both the nid and hel fail in their roles. The hel is crippled, and laughed at as being "half a supercarrier".

The nidhoggur might be great for a burst suicide triage alt, but that's about it. Maybe a remote-energy-x-ferred pos repper?

The hel is my biggest complaint. We've got a supercap nerf ("finished" and awaiting CSM approval/tweaks), but i guaranf**king-tee you there will be no simple attribute changes to the hel. After years, CCP finally gave the mighty naglfar a token boost, but the hel remains as laughable as ever.


It's time to take a fresh look at minmatar carriers, what do they bring to the table and what should be done to increase their usefulness or at least fulfill their specified role properly.

There must, and always will be, a ship in any group that is the worst at x. But it should be effective in at least one respect. Changing a simple variable or line of code could completely revive the use of min caps in warfare; with all this balancing going on, NOW is the time to do it.

Juliette DuBois
Posted - 2011.07.19 09:59:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Juliette DuBois on 19/07/2011 10:00:28
Originally by: Robert Caldera
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 11/07/2011 13:56:41

not really.
See the whole picture, if you dont like to, stop making "balance suggestions".


Racial balance is irrelevant because it is included automatically if ship types are balanced between themselves. Absolutely no heed should be paid to that nonsense.

Wu Phat
Posted - 2011.07.19 10:11:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Wu Phat on 19/07/2011 10:13:30
I have to say Sr. you fail at fitting ships. You do not Shield tank a Nid. If you can't triage in a Nid don't get in one becasue that is what it brings to the table. Awesome reping ability armor or shield. To balance it out because it's rep bonus carry's over to triage mode it has a capacitor recharge & powergride flaw. But it has the most Cap capacity of all 4 carriers.

Vialle Shadowflame
Posted - 2011.07.23 01:59:00 - [20]
 

CCP response please.

Vialle Shadowflame
Posted - 2011.07.23 02:25:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Vialle Shadowflame on 23/07/2011 02:37:43
Originally by: Robert Caldera
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 11/07/2011 13:56:41

not really.
See the whole picture, if you dont like to, stop making "balance suggestions".


You want to fly a carrier. Minmatar carrier is not better in any situation than other carriers. You will never train to fly a minmatar carrier. Why is Nidhoggur in the game?

Kalia Masaer
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Posted - 2011.07.23 06:12:00 - [22]
 

The other option for the nid is to simply increase its rep bonus then PG is unimportant and it could make for some interesting fits with very little tank but a huge amount of reps.

Bonus could be lifted to 7.5% to start and if that wasn't enough up to 10%. I am a big believer making small changes see what happens then make another.

Most ship balancing can be done that way with less load on Dev's and QA, as all it is is changing one number in a spread sheet and let us players try and abuse it. :) Then all they have to do is see if it was too much or to little, but if they are small changes the effect will not have the power to completely disrupt the balance in eve.

Jalmari Huitsikko
Caldari
draketrain
Posted - 2011.07.23 11:19:00 - [23]
 

nidhoggur pilot here hi,

why don't you train archon if you want archon.

King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
Posted - 2011.07.23 14:05:00 - [24]
 

I fly both an archon and a niddy. As I've already said, the niddy is workable and I actually like it better as a triage carrier in the small cap fights I usually participate in. But it still needs some adjustments to PG/CPU/cap. Just because I've found a way to make it work doesn't mean it doesn't need a small buff. Really all I ask for is enough CPU to fit 3x shield xfers (instead of 0) while shield tanked and enough PG to fit a 3rd remote armor rep if armor tanked. That's really not asking much. The thanny and chimera also need a CPU buff for the same reason.

Larla Rosethorn
Minmatar
Renegade Pleasure Androids
Posted - 2011.07.27 20:39:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Larla Rosethorn on 27/07/2011 21:24:11
Originally by: King Rothgar
I fly both an archon and a niddy. As I've already said, the niddy is workable and I actually like it better as a triage carrier in the small cap fights I usually participate in. But it still needs some adjustments to PG/CPU/cap. Just because I've found a way to make it work doesn't mean it doesn't need a small buff. Really all I ask for is enough CPU to fit 3x shield xfers (instead of 0) while shield tanked and enough PG to fit a 3rd remote armor rep if armor tanked. That's really not asking much. The thanny and chimera also need a CPU buff for the same reason.


Ditto. Also shield tanking is currently completely and utterly nerfed into total oblivion for caps due to fitting restrictions, slaves, a bunch of other missing implants and rigs.

SamuelK
Natural Selection.
Posted - 2011.07.27 20:53:00 - [26]
 

"nidhoggur: can not fit 4 remote + local armor with comparable resist"

then get a Archon and don't compare two totally different ships. I stopped reading beyond this point so flame on.

Larla Rosethorn
Minmatar
Renegade Pleasure Androids
Posted - 2011.07.27 21:04:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Larla Rosethorn on 27/07/2011 21:05:35
Originally by: SamuelK
"nidhoggur: can not fit 4 remote + local armor with comparable resist"

then get a Archon and don't compare two totally different ships. I stopped reading beyond this point so flame on.


What's Nidhoggur good for, genius? The bonus implies it's supposed to be a good triage repper. It's worse than all other carriers at that.

So what is it good at? Enlighten me.

TEMHblu BOuH
Posted - 2011.07.28 06:18:00 - [28]
 

As a nidhoggur pilot I'm all for a boost. I mean already my ship is arguably one of the best remote rep ships in the game, and an all round solid carrier (A++ would train minmatar again)
But please do feel free to boost it more Rolling Eyes

Larla Rosethorn
Minmatar
Renegade Pleasure Androids
Posted - 2011.07.28 23:47:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: TEMHblu BOuH
As a nidhoggur pilot I'm all for a boost. I mean already my ship is arguably one of the best remote rep ships in the game, and an all round solid carrier (A++ would train minmatar again)
But please do feel free to boost it more Rolling Eyes



Sorry to disappoint but you picked the worst possible carrier. It's like saying omg my girlfriend is so hot. Then you put her on hotornot.com and she's going to get 4.5. But if you are happy with her more power to you I guess.

Barbie D0ll
Posted - 2011.07.30 01:05:00 - [30]
 

minmatar have the best sub-cap t1 ship line there is, they have the best PVP and PVE ships if you don't include the tengu, drake, and golem, they have the dramel, daredevil, mach, hurricane (double damage bonus with two spare highs), have the ability to deal damage as well as or better than anyone else (alpha fleets), they have capless weapons, can do all damage types, their long range ammo gets a tracking bonus, have better tracking than everyone else, a majority of their sub-cap ships have double damage bonuses, sig tank and DPS tank everything else in PVP and you are complaining that the mimatar carrier needs to be even with everyone else when clearly minmatar and faction related sub-caps are OP.
minmatar shine with everything sub-cap, stop complaining about minmatar carriers not being OP


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