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Nice Rocks
Posted - 2011.07.10 07:41:00 - [1]
 

Hello,

I read overt the article on EVelopedia and just have some basic questions:

Is there a spreadsheet or program out there that will give a general estimate of fuel consumption for a POS?

Just how hard is it for a group of people to destroy a POS or how does that work? I missed the part in the article about how it's defenses work - I mean I read about the various types of batteries and things of that nature. But if I put ammo in them, online them and leave them be, they will fire whenever someone comes near that is within the guidelines I set for the guns?

Also how do "drag bubbles" work as I have seen them used before, when you warp in, you are pulled into the drag bubble, decloaked and fired upon. What is putting the bubble (shield) up etc.

Thinking about onling one in WH space, so I am curious why the ice products were never made available in WH spacE?

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.07.10 08:20:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Nice Rocks
Is there a spreadsheet or program out there that will give a general estimate of fuel consumption for a POS?

I like to use IGB POS Planner.

Originally by: Nice Rocks
Just how hard is it for a group of people to destroy a POS or how does that work? I missed the part in the article about how it's defenses work - I mean I read about the various types of batteries and things of that nature. But if I put ammo in them, online them and leave them be, they will fire whenever someone comes near that is within the guidelines I set for the guns?

The guns retarget every 30 seconds (ECM on Caldari towers retarget every 7.5 seconds), so they tend to spend more time locking than doing anything. They really need gunners to be effective.

That being stated, the primary defense for a POS is probably being a PITA. It can take several hours to deal with a large POS without capitals, which is not exactly fun.

In lowsec/nulsec capitals make quickt work of a POS and its defenses though.

Originally by: Nice Rocks
Also how do "drag bubbles" work as I have seen them used before, when you warp in, you are pulled into the drag bubble, decloaked and fired upon. What is putting the bubble (shield) up etc.

Mobile Warp Disruptor

If your path intersects one, and your destination is on the same grid, you will usually be pulled-in within 100km. They are a little buggy though in my experience, so they don't always work as expected.

Originally by: Nice Rocks
Thinking about onling one in WH space, so I am curious why the ice products were never made available in WH spacE?

No ice in w-space. You have to import ice products.

I live in a C5, and we bring a freighter in about once a month. When we lived in a C2, we used an Orca, but it took a few more trips.

I recommend reading every post in this thread:
POS Setups: Jump Bridge, Cyno Jam, Reactions, Moon Mine, LoSec Mining and Labs
Most of what you asked is answered there.

Nice Rocks
Posted - 2011.07.10 17:00:00 - [3]
 

Thanks I really appreciate the help!

So generally speaking a station in Low Sec generally will get killed quicker than that of one in WH space? WH space is where we'd like to move, but a Low Sec POS seemed kind of neat. Then again maybe a Low Sec POS in a less traveled system would be okay?

Do you think most people leave their guns online all the time in WH space, or only turn them on when someone nearby is hostile?

For the "drag bubbles" to work, and from what I understand from what you said, you need to know exactly where someone would warp in for them to get caught in the bubble, correct?

Xercodo
Amarr
Xovoni Directorate
Posted - 2011.07.10 17:29:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Nice Rocks
Thanks I really appreciate the help!

So generally speaking a station in Low Sec generally will get killed quicker than that of one in WH space? WH space is where we'd like to move, but a Low Sec POS seemed kind of neat. Then again maybe a Low Sec POS in a less traveled system would be okay?

Do you think most people leave their guns online all the time in WH space, or only turn them on when someone nearby is hostile?


One HUGE misconception

they aren't stations...if they were you could dock with them. The formal name is "starbase"

and yes a low sec one will probably die sooner cause anyone can get to it but a low traffic system can work too

we would usually leave all the guns on 24/7

Nice Rocks
Posted - 2011.07.10 17:50:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Xercodo
Originally by: Nice Rocks
Thanks I really appreciate the help!

So generally speaking a station in Low Sec generally will get killed quicker than that of one in WH space? WH space is where we'd like to move, but a Low Sec POS seemed kind of neat. Then again maybe a Low Sec POS in a less traveled system would be okay?

Do you think most people leave their guns online all the time in WH space, or only turn them on when someone nearby is hostile?


One HUGE misconception

they aren't stations...if they were you could dock with them. The formal name is "starbase"

and yes a low sec one will probably die sooner cause anyone can get to it but a low traffic system can work too

we would usually leave all the guns on 24/7


Sorry I did mean POS or Starbase, didn't mean to confuse!

Is there a spreadsheet or guide somewhere that compares all the various POS's including the Pirate and other Factions so I can compare CPU's, Online Times, etc?

Xercodo
Amarr
Xovoni Directorate
Posted - 2011.07.10 17:57:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Nice Rocks


Sorry I did mean POS or Starbase, didn't mean to confuse!

Is there a spreadsheet or guide somewhere that compares all the various POS's including the Pirate and other Factions so I can compare CPU's, Online Times, etc?


in-game type:
Ammar Control Tower
Caldari Control Tower
Gallente Control Tower
Minmatar Control Tower

highlight, right click, auto link

show info from the link and look at the variations tab and click the compare button
from there you can see all the pirate versions too

the medium and small tower scale pretty equally for the 4 different races

Nice Rocks
Posted - 2011.07.10 18:30:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Xercodo
Originally by: Nice Rocks


Sorry I did mean POS or Starbase, didn't mean to confuse!

Is there a spreadsheet or guide somewhere that compares all the various POS's including the Pirate and other Factions so I can compare CPU's, Online Times, etc?


in-game type:
Ammar Control Tower
Caldari Control Tower
Gallente Control Tower
Minmatar Control Tower

highlight, right click, auto link

show info from the link and look at the variations tab and click the compare button
from there you can see all the pirate versions too

the medium and small tower scale pretty equally for the 4 different races


Ah thanks, I forgot about the "compare" button - I wasn't sure if there was a spreadsheet floating around.

Taedrin
Gallente
Kushan Industrial
Posted - 2011.07.10 18:47:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Taedrin on 10/07/2011 18:50:39
Originally by: Nice Rocks


Just how hard is it for a group of people to destroy a POS or how does that work?



First and foremost, realize that if someone is determined to take your POS, they will. This is especially true if you do not have access to a large fleet with capital and super capital support. A small corp's main defense is that people don't care

A large POS takes about an hour for a gang of 30-40 battleships with logistic support to reinforce. It then takes 1-2 hours for that same battleship fleet to finish destroying the tower when it comes out of reinforced mode the following day. Dreadnaughts make POS bashing easy, although most dreadnaught pilots won't risk shooting a large POS.

Anything less than a large POS can be taken down by a solo dreadnaught with relative ease. Small and medium POSes should only be used when you know that your space is safe (deep in friendly 0.0 territory, or in high sec and you don't attract attention from wardecs) or when you recognize that someone might try to destroy it "for the lulz".

Quote:


I missed the part in the article about how it's defenses work - I mean I read about the various types of batteries and things of that nature. But if I put ammo in them, online them and leave them be, they will fire whenever someone comes near that is within the guidelines I set for the guns?


Yes - however they will choose their targets randomly, and will occasionally switch targets. Also realize that (IIRC) the default configuration does NOT automatically attack neutrals - you have to configure it to do so.

Guns can take a long time to target other ships, so it makes sense to online a variety of sizes so that you can cover the entire spectrum. You will most definitely want some smaller guns to scare away things like bombers and logistic ships.

Quote:

Also how do "drag bubbles" work as I have seen them used before, when you warp in, you are pulled into the drag bubble, decloaked and fired upon. What is putting the bubble (shield) up etc.

Thinking about onling one in WH space, so I am curious why the ice products were never made available in WH spacE?


A "drag bubble" is a bubble which sucks, or drags, you into it - away from your intended warping destination. They will only work when a pilot's warping vector collides with the warp bubble. This means that a single drag bubble will *ONLY* work if the drag bubble is aligned with a pilot's warping destination and warping origin. Mind you, the bubble only has to be aligned with the warp vector - the bubble doesn't have to be between the two. This is why drag bubbles can be so disorienting - they are frequently set up so that they drag you PAST where you wanted to warp to. This causes confusion which makes it easier to catch small, fast ships.

It also allows you guarantee that all ships which get caught by the drag bubble exit warp at a specific location - including cloaked ones. You can drop a cargo can at that location to automatically decloak cloaked ships which get caught in the bubble. A VERY nasty trick which has almost cost me my recon cruiser once.

EDIT: Drag bubbles also have to be placed within a certain distance from the object that a pilot is warping to - something like within 100km of it or so. So the drag bubble still has to be placed reasonably close to a gate or station.

Nice Rocks
Posted - 2011.07.10 18:56:00 - [9]
 

Ah well we are looking at putting a POS up in WH space so I assume these large fleets you speak of are a lot harder to get to.

I am still not able to cross compare different faction's POS towers. Also it doesn't list the fuel requirements on the compare screen.

Nice Rocks
Posted - 2011.07.10 19:15:00 - [10]
 

Or I can just ask, what is the better of the control towers in WH space?

Taedrin
Gallente
Kushan Industrial
Posted - 2011.07.10 19:40:00 - [11]
 

Fuel requirements for different race's control towers are exactly the same - except for the ice products.

Caldari towers have the most CPU, so this makes them the best for industrial work.
Gallente towers have silo bonuses, which can make them very convenient for reaction towers that you don't want to keep changing the silos on.
Minmatar towers have the most damage bonuses, so they make the best deathstars.
Amarr towers have a smaller silo bonus than the gallente and their turrets use crystals, so you don't have to worry about ammo logistics ( as much ).

As always, the "best" tower depends upon what you want to do, and what you want out of your POS. But generally speaking, Caldari towers are "best".

Nice Rocks
Posted - 2011.07.10 19:44:00 - [12]
 

Ah thanks!

Looking to set one up in WH space, really just as a base of operations.

What is more Power grid hungry then? I thought that Caldari has a high CPU output, but the Powergrid was lower?

Taedrin
Gallente
Kushan Industrial
Posted - 2011.07.10 19:47:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Nice Rocks
Ah thanks!

Looking to set one up in WH space, really just as a base of operations.

What is more Power grid hungry then? I thought that Caldari has a high CPU output, but the Powergrid was lower?


Guns are the thing that eat up all of your power grid. All turret batteries consume ONLY powergrid and no CPU. Missile batteries consume both (and, IIRC, thus go offline when the tower gets put into reinforced. AFAIK, there is no real reason to use missile batteries).

Nice Rocks
Posted - 2011.07.10 19:48:00 - [14]
 

IIRC?

And alright thanks, that makes more sense, we'll stick with Towers that do not use Missile Batteries.

Taedrin
Gallente
Kushan Industrial
Posted - 2011.07.10 19:51:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Nice Rocks
IIRC?

And alright thanks, that makes more sense, we'll stick with Towers that do not use Missile Batteries.

IIRC = If I Recall Correctly.

Please note that there is NOTHING stopping you from putting turrets on a caldari tower, even though it has bonuses to missile batteries. Also, that ECM bonus and it's high CPU makes it the best "****star" - a tower which is made as annoying to kill as possible. Tons of ECM, enough guns to require logistical support and plenty of shield hardeners to make it take HOURS to chew through.

Nice Rocks
Posted - 2011.07.10 19:52:00 - [16]
 

Sounds like Caldari is pretty much the way to go then eh?

Taedrin
Gallente
Kushan Industrial
Posted - 2011.07.10 20:13:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Nice Rocks
Sounds like Caldari is pretty much the way to go then eh?


Well, as I said, it depends on the situation, but Caldari tend to be the right tool for the job more often than not.

Nice Rocks
Posted - 2011.07.11 00:36:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Taedrin
Originally by: Nice Rocks
Sounds like Caldari is pretty much the way to go then eh?


Well, as I said, it depends on the situation, but Caldari tend to be the right tool for the job more often than not.


Thanks I think that is what we are going to go with!

Thank you for all the help!

Nice Rocks
Posted - 2011.07.11 00:40:00 - [19]
 

Been doing some research, what is the largest ship that can get into a WH?

Looking at the WH list and size of the ships, it appears you can get carriers into the holes, correct?

The biggest WH is one that leads in from 0.0 space, at 1.8billion kgs of mass.

Is this correct?

Can you get the Gallente Carriers into the WH?

Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.07.11 02:05:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Velicitia on 11/07/2011 02:05:22
Originally by: Nice Rocks
Been doing some research, what is the largest ship that can get into a WH?

Looking at the WH list and size of the ships, it appears you can get carriers into the holes, correct?

The biggest WH is one that leads in from 0.0 space, at 1.8billion kgs of mass.

Is this correct?

Can you get the Gallente Carriers into the WH?


yeah, you can get some cap ships into C5/C6 w-space, but if you're entering from highsec the biggest ship you can get in would be an orca. If you want a carrier in the w-space, it's probably better to build it inside...

if it's a c3/c4 w-space, you can only get a carrier inside if you build it there

edit spelling...

Nice Rocks
Posted - 2011.07.11 18:11:00 - [21]
 

Alright cool thanks for all the help!

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.07.11 19:19:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 11/07/2011 19:22:43

Most towers in w-space are Amarr, or related faction. These have the most grid, which means they can fit a formidable defense. They also use the least amount of ammo, which is a factor when hauling stuff into a wormhole.

Amarr has the most faction variants, though I don't recommend using a faction tower, as it just says "Yes, we have lots of ISK, so ransom us."

I used to have a large Minmatar (Domination) tower. It can also fit a formidable defense. However it takes a lot of ammo to fill the guns.

The following is for reference only. I really do not recommend using a faction control tower. They just cost too much (the BPC are no longer available).

Amarr - has the most faction variants, so they tend to be cheaper
* Better: Blood = Sansha (they have identical stats)
* Best: Dark Blood = True Sansha (they have identical stats)

Caldari
* Better: Gurista
* Best: Dread Gurista

Gallente
* Better: Serpentis
* Best: Shadow

Minmatar
* Better: Angel
* Best: Domination

Starbase & Sovereignty Structures

ISD IonCharge

Posted - 2011.07.11 21:49:00 - [23]
 

MyPOS is another useful program, which has been called "the EFT for starbases" - it lets you see precise cpu/powergrid of any loadout, and calculates exact fuel usage and fuel bay optimisation (and price, if you type in what each fuel costs) - very useful for setting up a starbase.

Nice Rocks
Posted - 2011.07.13 01:12:00 - [24]
 

Thanks for the links everyone.

How come the Faction Towers BPC's are no longer available?

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.07.13 03:06:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Nice Rocks
Thanks for the links everyone.

How come the Faction Towers BPC's are no longer available?

CCP: Why dont Faction tower BPC's drop anymore?

Nice Rocks
Posted - 2011.07.17 19:48:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Nice Rocks on 17/07/2011 20:52:42
Thanks for all the help - still trying to decide what type of tower to use in WH space though.

I think we will be doing a lot of mining, but at the same time we'd like to have a decent defense.

I have been mining fuel for a Caldari tower, but it seems the majority of people don't like the missile batteries.

Are there any other programs out there that are decent at setting up POS defenses? With all the different variations of weapons, crystals and ammo affecting weapon damage and distance....etc.

I'm torn between a Caldari tower and the minmatar due to the damage bonuses, then again the Amarr are nice because of the crystals.

Also while the Minmatar has a good bonus for damage, projectile has a very short attack range.....we'd have to use ammo that increases that, but the damage is lowered.

Of course I can mismatch the weapons regardless of tower faction, but I assume that makes them a little less powerful than just using the correct faction tower.

Also looking at weapons, semi confused on what variety of weapons we should use for our tower?

Do we want those sensor dampeners, or the white noise things, or the warp scrambling devices (I assume those are for drag bubbles. It just seems like none of the weapons can track very quickly.

Also, the more things we have anchored, the more fuel the tower consumes, or does that number stay the same regardless?

ISD IonCharge

Posted - 2011.07.17 21:23:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Nice Rocks
I have been mining fuel for a Caldari tower, but it seems the majority of people don't like the missile batteries.
When a starbase is attacked and put into reinforced mode, any structures which require CPU go offline. Turrets use only powergrid, missile launchers use powergrid and CPU. Also, POS missiles aren't quite as high DPS as you might be hoping for, and a well-positioned smartbombing ship can shield the whole fleet from incoming missiles, especially when they're coming from a static target such as a starbase.

Originally by: Nice Rocks
Also while the Minmatar has a good bonus for damage, projectile has a very short attack range.....we'd have to use ammo that increases that, but the damage is lowered.
You may wish to re-consult the damage done while in falloff range curve - you will see you still have significant DPS at quite a distance due to the large falloff ranges.

Originally by: Nice Rocks
Also, the more things we have anchored, the more fuel the tower consumes, or does that number stay the same regardless?
Some fuels are based on the CPU/powergrid usage of the control tower, others are always spent the same - MyPOS and perhaps other tools will work it out for you. Only online modules contribute, you can have as many as you like anchored if you keep them offline.

Nice Rocks
Posted - 2011.07.17 23:51:00 - [28]
 

Thanks any other information on my above questions?

Nice Rocks
Posted - 2011.07.23 04:22:00 - [29]
 

Can someone explain how the RADAR, LADAR, Magnetometric, and Gravimetric Sensors work?

I was curious if putting those dampners on my tower would be worth it? The White Noise, spatial destabilization arrays, etc work?

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.07.23 05:07:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 23/07/2011 05:13:30
Originally by: ISD IonCharge
Originally by: Nice Rocks
I have been mining fuel for a Caldari tower, but it seems the majority of people don't like the missile batteries.
When a starbase is attacked and put into reinforced mode, any structures which require CPU go offline. Turrets use only powergrid, missile launchers use powergrid and CPU. Also, POS missiles aren't quite as high DPS as you might be hoping for, and a well-positioned smartbombing ship can shield the whole fleet from incoming missiles, especially when they're coming from a static target such as a starbase.

Take a look at the rate of fire of a missile battery and the damage multiplier, then look at turrets and realize there is no comparison. Missile batteries are pitiful.

Cruise Missile Battery:
* Damage multiplier: 1
* Rate of fire: 24 seconds

Medium Artillery Battery
* Damage Multiplier: 67
* Rate of fire: 23.65 seconds

Medium Beam Laser Battery
* Damage Modifier: 27
* Rate of fire: 9 seconds

Pretend hybrids don't exist. They are also broken.


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