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Es Hai
Skyforger
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2011.08.15 23:07:00 - [211]
 

supported

Dub Step
Minmatar
Death To Everyone But Us
Posted - 2011.08.16 05:46:00 - [212]
 

He mentioned something about counter-intelligence. I think he is doing a fantastic job of demonstrating counter-intelligence in this thread.

Trolling removed. Zymurgist

Uncle Smokey
Posted - 2011.08.16 12:18:00 - [213]
 

Originally by: OMGWTFResearch

This isn't a topic about local. Keep it about the cloaking.



How wasn't it about stealth or changes to it? Keep it to yourself. I just said as long as we have a much bigger underlying problem, a small detail like afk cloakers isn't worth sh*t, like the work of creating and balancing new modules just to give diapers to those who feel eve-pants aren't comfortable enough.

Originally by: Dub Step
He mentioned something about counter-intelligence. I think he is doing a fantastic job of demonstrating counter-intelligence in this thread.

Trolling removed. Zymurgist


Well played :D

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.08.16 13:24:00 - [214]
 

Originally by: OMGWTFResearch
This isn't a topic about local. Keep it about the cloaking.
It's all about local. Without local, AFK cloaking would be pointless as a psychological warfare tool.

Ya Huei
Imperial Collective
Posted - 2011.08.16 15:43:00 - [215]
 

Originally by: OMGWTFResearch


You do realize that Local intel is not being nerfed. It is being replaced with a better intel tool.




You do realize that u just pulled that out of thin air right ? There's been no details whatsoever about how nullsec intel will work.




Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.16 23:21:00 - [216]
 

Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 17/08/2011 00:45:08
Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 16/08/2011 23:26:36
I'm going to toss out some ideas for both sides here.

Local is powerful, but it does have story precedence. Every stargate has the records of who has jumped in. That so much is public knowledge. So local is not some omniscient 'immersion breaker'. You get that info via your NEOCOM via the fluidnet. That's why W-space doesn't have it, there are no stargates to record entry and exits, and no stargates to perpetuate inter-system fluidnet.

Now the destroyer idea is interesting (though not new), and actually may be doable. Must make sure its balanced, and requires a lot of skills to get good enough to find cloakers, or use the modules that can send the tach pulses that will reveal cloakers. It has precedence as well, destroyers have little purpose these days, except as cheap non-noctis salvagers, make a new class of destroyer and have them be the only ones that can fit this new mod.

The mod should not decloak a cloaker. It should only make a cloaker visible to combat probes. Cloakers should be able to see the use of the pulse as 'fluctuations' in there cloaking device. They can decide to warp away, which makes the task of actually locking down a active cloaker very very hard, requiring a good prober working with a 'stalker' class destroyer, or several, depending on the AU range of the tachyon pulses.

EDIT: This was proposed before, but I don't remember what happened to the discussion. Often AFK cloaker threads are so mired in troll/nooob/forum rage that all the sensible people don't even bother reading them.

I'm still very Neg on any cloak that requires 'fuel'. Without people actively searching for the cloaker (with this new stalker class destroyer) then you should be able to AFK cloak forever. Also, I think you should be allowed to AFK cloak forever in non-hostile systems. (people in this thread seems overly focused ONLY on NULLSEC with SOV systems, totally neglecting all the other kinds of systems in the game.)

EDIT2: I'm not supporting this because the SUBJECT header of this thread offends me. It breeds dissent, division, and serves only to pit troll vs troll. There is NOTHING wrong with AFK cloaking. So fundamentally, I cannot support this thread. BUT if somebody wants to start a new one proposing these new tools to help combat cloakers, I will support.

Cynoska McNamara
Posted - 2011.08.17 00:05:00 - [217]
 

Edited by: Cynoska McNamara on 17/08/2011 00:06:00
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 16/08/2011 23:26:36
I'm going to toss out some ideas for both sides here.

Local is powerful, but it does have story precedence. Every stargate has the records of who has jumped in. That so much is public knowledge. So local is not some omniscient 'immersion breaker'. You get that info via your NEOCOM via the fluidnet. That's why W-space doesn't have it, there are no stargates to record entry and exits, and no stargates to perpetuate inter-system fluidnet.

Now the destroyer idea is interesting (though not new), and actually may be doable. Must make sure its balanced, and requires a lot of skills to get good enough to find cloakers, or use the modules that can send the tach pulses that will reveal cloakers. It has precedence as well, destroyers have little purpose these days, except as cheap non-noctis salvagers, make a new class of destroyer and have them be the only ones that can fit this new mod.

The mod should not decloak a cloaker. It should only make a cloaker visible to combat probes. Cloakers should be able to see the use of the pulse as 'fluctuations' in there cloaking device. They can decide to warp away, which makes the task of actually locking down a active cloaker very very hard, requiring a good prober working with a 'stalker' class destroyer, or several, depending on the AU range of the tachyon pulses.

EDIT: This was proposed before, but I don't remember what happened to the discussion. Often AFK cloaker threads are so mired in troll/nooob/forum rage that all the sensible people don't even bother reading them.

I'm still very Neg on any cloak that requires 'fuel'. Without people actively searching for the cloaker (with this new stalker class destroyer) then you should be able to AFK cloak forever. Also, I think you should be allowed to AFK cloak forever in non-hostile systems. (people in this thread seems overly focused ONLY on NULLSEC with SOV systems, totally neglecting all the other kinds of systems in the game.)



I agree. The destroyer idea is very good.

OMGWTFResearch
Posted - 2011.08.17 11:02:00 - [218]
 

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 17/08/2011 00:45:08
Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 16/08/2011 23:26:36
I'm going to toss out some ideas for both sides here.

Local is powerful, but it does have story precedence. Every stargate has the records of who has jumped in. That so much is public knowledge. So local is not some omniscient 'immersion breaker'. You get that info via your NEOCOM via the fluidnet. That's why W-space doesn't have it, there are no stargates to record entry and exits, and no stargates to perpetuate inter-system fluidnet.

Now the destroyer idea is interesting (though not new), and actually may be doable. Must make sure its balanced, and requires a lot of skills to get good enough to find cloakers, or use the modules that can send the tach pulses that will reveal cloakers. It has precedence as well, destroyers have little purpose these days, except as cheap non-noctis salvagers, make a new class of destroyer and have them be the only ones that can fit this new mod.

The mod should not decloak a cloaker. It should only make a cloaker visible to combat probes. Cloakers should be able to see the use of the pulse as 'fluctuations' in there cloaking device. They can decide to warp away, which makes the task of actually locking down a active cloaker very very hard, requiring a good prober working with a 'stalker' class destroyer, or several, depending on the AU range of the tachyon pulses.

EDIT: This was proposed before, but I don't remember what happened to the discussion. Often AFK cloaker threads are so mired in troll/nooob/forum rage that all the sensible people don't even bother reading them.

I'm still very Neg on any cloak that requires 'fuel'. Without people actively searching for the cloaker (with this new stalker class destroyer) then you should be able to AFK cloak forever. Also, I think you should be allowed to AFK cloak forever in non-hostile systems. (people in this thread seems overly focused ONLY on NULLSEC with SOV systems, totally neglecting all the other kinds of systems in the game.)

EDIT2: I'm not supporting this because the SUBJECT header of this thread offends me. It breeds dissent, division, and serves only to pit troll vs troll. There is NOTHING wrong with AFK cloaking. So fundamentally, I cannot support this thread. BUT if somebody wants to start a new one proposing these new tools to help combat cloakers, I will support.



There is nothing wrong with active cloaking. AFK is a completely different ball game but yes this destroyer idea would make things better by.

A) With a very expensive modules that only fits on a T1 destroyer hull. It makes these craft useful in the game again. The T2 or another destroyer variant idea is virtually the same but I would like to see the T1 versions do more than salvage.

B) Giving a new dedicated "Job" that can be hired out which enhances game variety.

C) Gives a fair balance to those who walk away (Which now involves great risk) Without seriously effecting those who are active in their clients.

D) Exposes bots when people who are cloaking 23/7 are reported legitimately for either botting or account sharing.

Now if I may to add further balance to protect active cloakers I propose that this new scan module works by finding a random point in space or puzzle which is generated every time the cloak starts.

Otherwise I see an exploit where people would just camp the area with probes at lowest setting making active cloakers life hell if not impossible. Random point then bring in the normal probes if the ship is AFK.

Ya Huei
Imperial Collective
Posted - 2011.08.17 14:30:00 - [219]
 

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 17/08/2011 00:45:08
Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 16/08/2011 23:26:36
I'm going to toss out some ideas for both sides here.

Local is powerful, but it does have story precedence. Every stargate has the records of who has jumped in. That so much is public knowledge. So local is not some omniscient 'immersion breaker'. You get that info via your NEOCOM via the fluidnet. That's why W-space doesn't have it, there are no stargates to record entry and exits, and no stargates to perpetuate inter-system fluidnet.




It's also broken because I enter systems through wormholes and I still magically appear in local.


Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.17 15:17:00 - [220]
 

Originally by: Ya Huei
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 17/08/2011 00:45:08
Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 16/08/2011 23:26:36
I'm going to toss out some ideas for both sides here.

Local is powerful, but it does have story precedence. Every stargate has the records of who has jumped in. That so much is public knowledge. So local is not some omniscient 'immersion breaker'. You get that info via your NEOCOM via the fluidnet. That's why W-space doesn't have it, there are no stargates to record entry and exits, and no stargates to perpetuate inter-system fluidnet.




It's also broken because I enter systems through wormholes and I still magically appear in local.




You win. Report to CCP and I guess they will get right on fixing that :)

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.17 15:26:00 - [221]
 

Originally by: OMGWTFResearch

A) With a very expensive modules that only fits on a T1 destroyer hull. It makes these craft useful in the game again. The T2 or another destroyer variant idea is virtually the same but I would like to see the T1 versions do more than salvage.

B) Giving a new dedicated "Job" that can be hired out which enhances game variety.

C) Gives a fair balance to those who walk away (Which now involves great risk) Without seriously effecting those who are active in their clients.

D) Exposes bots when people who are cloaking 23/7 are reported legitimately for either botting or account sharing.

Now if I may to add further balance to protect active cloakers I propose that this new scan module works by finding a random point in space or puzzle which is generated every time the cloak starts.

Otherwise I see an exploit where people would just camp the area with probes at lowest setting making active cloakers life hell if not impossible. Random point then bring in the normal probes if the ship is AFK.


So are you going to start a new thread, or do we have to continue this on this wrongly named subject thread?

a) I disagree. T2 specialty class is better. Interdictors are specialty ships, and these should be too. Just because T1 destroyer should have a use is not good enough reason to break the model of special roles go to specialty class ships. T1's frigs, dessies and cruisers are for noobies anyway.

You completely lost me with this puzzle/probe thing, tachyon pulse is a ranged pulse. I was thinking more like depth charge analogy. If hit, target cloak destabilizes, making them probable. They can reengage their cloak after some cooldown reset time.

Why don't you start a new thread. This thread is already troll heavy enough.

OMGWTFResearch
Posted - 2011.08.17 15:30:00 - [222]
 

The reason is an AFK cloaker is not going to stand within range of an AOF module. And much worse it would harm active cloakers. You want to target the AFK aspect and little else.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.17 15:52:00 - [223]
 

Originally by: OMGWTFResearch
The reason is an AFK cloaker is not going to stand within range of an AOF module. And much worse it would harm active cloakers. You want to target the AFK aspect and little else.

You misunderstood my idea, it's a probe that sends out a AOE tach pulse. The module is just a launcher. But I'm not going to continue this on this thread. You have my ideas, you got the gist of it, distill it and post it as a sensible proposal. Keep the flames and the accusations and the hyperbole to a minimum to keep the anti-whiner sentiment low. good luck.

Kreliaan
Posted - 2011.08.18 13:51:00 - [224]
 

It is adorable that 95% of the people in this thread have missed the OP's point entirely.

He is not complaining about cloaking mechanics.

He is not complaining about risk vs. reward in nullsec.

He is not complaining about local.

He is not complaining about enemies in his home systems.


He is complaining about afk'ers. Simple solution: a timed afk flag.

Dub Step
Minmatar
Death To Everyone But Us
Posted - 2011.08.18 13:55:00 - [225]
 

Anyone AFK does not represent a risk therefore why bother.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.18 14:15:00 - [226]
 

Timed aft flag is the stupidest idea ever ( and that's a lot coming from me, I'd like to think I'm open minded about all things reasonable )
That pretty much makes eve into a whack-a-mole game, prone to accidental logoffs or decloaks, and easily defeated with existing macros. Not only ineffective, it serves only to punish the legitimate players not using macros. People who propose it need to take a course in game design. Or just recall the last time windows asked you to reboot and install new updates and gave you 59 seconds to click NO else it would do it for you.

Just plain dumb UI design.

Kreliaan
Posted - 2011.08.18 14:18:00 - [227]
 

Originally by: Dub Step
Anyone AFK does not represent a risk therefore why bother.


Because you don't know if they are afk. The enemy might have gone to bed six hours ago. Maybe he is actually playing and planning a strike. It has become common practice in my corner of nullsec for reds to leave their characters cloaked in popular jewing systems all day, every day. Obviously, they are not at their keyboard 24/7.

Why should they be able to do anything (even something as small as tactical pressure from their presence alone) when they are not actively playing?

This isn't about risk vs a single enemy. This is about allowing people to participate in eve while not at their computer.


Kreliaan
Posted - 2011.08.18 14:21:00 - [228]
 

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Timed aft flag is the stupidest idea ever ( and that's a lot coming from me, I'd like to think I'm open minded about all things reasonable )
That pretty much makes eve into a whack-a-mole game, prone to accidental logoffs or decloaks, and easily defeated with existing macros. Not only ineffective, it serves only to punish the legitimate players not using macros. People who propose it need to take a course in game design. Or just recall the last time windows asked you to reboot and install new updates and gave you 59 seconds to click NO else it would do it for you.

Just plain dumb UI design.



I said nothing about an auto-log. A simple light on the character portrait in local would work fine. There are ways around macros as well, like captchas. Obviously captchas wouldn't be an elegant solution, but surely there is something similar that could be done.

Dub Step
Minmatar
Death To Everyone But Us
Posted - 2011.08.18 14:25:00 - [229]
 

Originally by: Kreliaan
This isn't about risk vs a single enemy. This is about allowing people to participate in eve while not at their computer.

Soi you would also wish for skill training to stop while offline and for market orders, industry jobs, contracts, research etc. to be cancelled while a player is offline?

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.08.18 15:18:00 - [230]
 

Originally by: Kreliaan
It is adorable that 95% of the people in this thread have missed the OP's point entirely.

He is not complaining about cloaking mechanics.
Maybe, maybe not.

Originally by: Kreliaan
He is not complaining about risk vs. reward in nullsec.
He actually mentions this in his second post and calls exploit.

Originally by: Kreliaan
He is not complaining about local.
Not directly. But they are inextricably linked, so you cannot talk about one without the other.

But it goes deeper than that, as you can AFK and use local for psychological warfare without a cloak. This is why most of us know the actual problem, is local.

Originally by: Kreliaan
He is not complaining about enemies in his home systems.
Well actually he is.

Originally by: Kreliaan
He is complaining about afk'ers. Simple solution: a timed afk flag.
This is where we find you adorable, for suggesting an idea that is so easily bypassed, not in anyway new and at the same time totally unnecessary.

Frau Klaps
Amarr
Posted - 2011.08.18 17:52:00 - [231]
 

I made a new thread discussing the dubiously unethical acts such as AFK cloaking in eve general. Please check there for some fresh new thoughts on this perennial problem.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.19 00:17:00 - [232]
 

There is NoTHING wrong with afk cloaking, ethically, or otherwise. Stop thinking that there is. Let's start here. 
Identify the problem at it's core.  It's not afk cloaking, it's people who can't do anything about it. Give them a tool to do so, problem solved.  If they don't want to act on the problem they deserve to suffer for their laziness. 

Captchas???? Seriously? You want to make this game as fun as signing up for a web account?shame on you for even suggesting it. Its ridiculous. You want to put the onus of work on the cloaker? No. You are just a lazy miner. This is the reason why you get so many scathing responses on these forums for your selfish suggestion.   Anyone can afk. It's allowed in the game.  You don't like a cloaker in your space YOU need to find and evict him. Afk or not. If not afk, good luck. It will be impossible. But that's fair. If a cloaker wants to harass your system then you need to expend a hunter killer to stalk him and both of you spend time at the cloak and dagger game. No side gets to be lazy. 

Kreliaan
Posted - 2011.08.19 01:21:00 - [233]
 

Originally by: Dub Step
Originally by: Kreliaan
This isn't about risk vs a single enemy. This is about allowing people to participate in eve while not at their computer.

Soi you would also wish for skill training to stop while offline and for market orders, industry jobs, contracts, research etc. to be cancelled while a player is offline?


Being intentionally thick is not becoming of you.

Kreliaan
Posted - 2011.08.19 01:48:00 - [234]
 

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Anyone can afk. It's allowed in the game.  You don't like a cloaker in your space YOU need to find and evict him. Afk or not. If not afk, good luck. It will be impossible. But that's fair. 


Do I really need to point this out to you? Impossible is the problem. It is a problem because it is specifically not fair. Impossible is the opposite of fair.

Why not a ghost cycle on the cloak module? Where it operates just like it does now, but only stays active for an hour at a time. Yes there will be macro'ers, but not everyone cheats at this game. It would dramatically cut down on the majority of people leaving themselves cloaked in a system while they go to work or sleep. Thats all I want. Something that makes it so you can't be absent from your computer all day and remain cloaked and invincible in a system.

Eventually, macro'ers will need to be dealt with, but as long as CCP benefits from their subscriptions, it is not likely to happen anytime soon. In the meantime, it would be an enormous help to this particular issue.


Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.19 08:21:00 - [235]
 

Originally by: kreliaan
Do I really need to point this out to you? Impossible is the problem. It is a problem because it is specifically not fair. Impossible is the opposite of fair.


Now I could just be mean and point out how silly you sound not even having read the whole thread and spouting off.

So I'll just let you get the hint yourself and do so quietly to save your dignity.
Credibility -10

Diablo Ex
Caldari
The Devil's Reject's
Posted - 2011.08.19 08:24:00 - [236]
 

Edited by: Diablo Ex on 19/08/2011 08:25:06
Its threads like this that make me want to demonstrate that there are nastier, more evil things out there than an AFK Cloaker.

I just slip in an Interceptor, maybe a Dramiel, find a deep safe, point it in an oblique direction away from all celestials, fire up the MWD to about 10,000 m/s speed, give the middle finger in local and go AFK for the night.

Even if and when you might get a warp in off the combat probes, it will be off grid before you can warp to 0. Chase that around till you get tired frustrated and angry...

it's called the greased pigglet...

And it will still be sitting there in local.

Cynoska McNamara
Posted - 2011.08.19 08:57:00 - [237]
 

Originally by: Diablo Ex
Edited by: Diablo Ex on 19/08/2011 08:25:06
Its threads like this that make me want to demonstrate that there are nastier, more evil things out there than an AFK Cloaker.

I just slip in an Interceptor, maybe a Dramiel, find a deep safe, point it in an oblique direction away from all celestials, fire up the MWD to about 10,000 m/s speed, give the middle finger in local and go AFK for the night.

Even if and when you might get a warp in off the combat probes, it will be off grid before you can warp to 0. Chase that around till you get tired frustrated and angry...

it's called the greased pigglet...

And it will still be sitting there in local.

For me is ok.. a dramiel is proportionate to the damage it can do.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.08.19 13:53:00 - [238]
 

Originally by: Kreliaan
Do I really need to point this out to you? Impossible is the problem. It is a problem because it is specifically not fair. Impossible is the opposite of fair.
Ahh, the 'not fair 'card. Nice move.

Originally by: Kreliaan
Why not a ghost cycle on the cloak module? Where it operates just like it does now, but only stays active for an hour at a time. Yes there will be macro'ers, but not everyone cheats at this game. It would dramatically cut down on the majority of people leaving themselves cloaked in a system while they go to work or sleep. Thats all I want. Something that makes it so you can't be absent from your computer all day and remain cloaked and invincible in a system.
You've yet to give a good reason why this is needed. By this I mean, a none emotional factual reason. You also have to include local, as it is the reason for AFK cloaking.

Originally by: Kreliaan
Eventually, macro'ers will need to be dealt with, but as long as CCP benefits from their subscriptions, it is not likely to happen anytime soon. In the meantime, it would be an enormous help to this particular issue.
But in the meantime, you want to push an idea forward, that promotes the use of macros. Great stuff.

El Geo
Group 2
Posted - 2011.08.19 22:07:00 - [239]
 

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 17/08/2011 00:45:08
Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 16/08/2011 23:26:36
I'm going to toss out some ideas for both sides here.

Local is powerful, but it does have story precedence. Every stargate has the records of who has jumped in. That so much is public knowledge. So local is not some omniscient 'immersion breaker'. You get that info via your NEOCOM via the fluidnet. That's why W-space doesn't have it, there are no stargates to record entry and exits, and no stargates to perpetuate inter-system fluidnet.

Now the destroyer idea is interesting (though not new), and actually may be doable. Must make sure its balanced, and requires a lot of skills to get good enough to find cloakers, or use the modules that can send the tach pulses that will reveal cloakers. It has precedence as well, destroyers have little purpose these days, except as cheap non-noctis salvagers, make a new class of destroyer and have them be the only ones that can fit this new mod.

The mod should not decloak a cloaker. It should only make a cloaker visible to combat probes. Cloakers should be able to see the use of the pulse as 'fluctuations' in there cloaking device. They can decide to warp away, which makes the task of actually locking down a active cloaker very very hard, requiring a good prober working with a 'stalker' class destroyer, or several, depending on the AU range of the tachyon pulses.

EDIT: This was proposed before, but I don't remember what happened to the discussion. Often AFK cloaker threads are so mired in troll/nooob/forum rage that all the sensible people don't even bother reading them.

I'm still very Neg on any cloak that requires 'fuel'. Without people actively searching for the cloaker (with this new stalker class destroyer) then you should be able to AFK cloak forever. Also, I think you should be allowed to AFK cloak forever in non-hostile systems. (people in this thread seems overly focused ONLY on NULLSEC with SOV systems, totally neglecting all the other kinds of systems in the game.)

EDIT2: I'm not supporting this because the SUBJECT header of this thread offends me. It breeds dissent, division, and serves only to pit troll vs troll. There is NOTHING wrong with AFK cloaking. So fundamentally, I cannot support this thread. BUT if somebody wants to start a new one proposing these new tools to help combat cloakers, I will support.



i really like the idea of a new destroyer for that, seems better than nerfing cloaking ships and logical aswell - the bit about gates though says that if a ship enters a local but not through a gate then they shouldnt be visible in the local channel right?

El Geo
Group 2
Posted - 2011.08.19 22:16:00 - [240]
 

i thought about it some more and wanted to say i would whole heartedly support a new destroyer that does some sort of cloaky (sub) hunting type thing, the more i think about it the more it sounds like the way forward - infact all the otehr ideas seem well, just effin dumb compared to it


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