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Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.15 16:52:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: Cendric De'Credsiu
This is the last time I will try and explain it to you all.

The issue is not that they are cloaked. Cloak mechanics do not need to change.

The issue is the tactic is not having the desired effect. People have become so used to it that while some folks post threads like this over all going into a system and cloaking and walking away from your keyboard is not causing the effects it should.

Yes all the countering tactics, running with friends ect, get used when a cloaky comes into system. That's not the issue. The issue is that while it disrupts a system and causes a little grief and lowered production. It in no way causes the effects that it should.

A cloak in system should stop that system in its tracks, while folks try and find him, bait him, kill him, work at protecting assets ect. That's what I want to see change. The cloak doesn't need to change just the AFK portion of it. Untill the afk portion of the tactic changes it will continue to be just an annoyance and that's the part I want to see change. I want to see this be more capable then what it is of disrupting a system.

For those that asked, I would create hours of fraps for intel for systems that I wanted to take down. Any good tactician gains as much information as he can before launching an attack. You also don't need fraps. There are programs out there that can "read" the info displayed on your screen and put it in a text format. Sit 130 off a gate cloaked up walk away and you get to see what kind of ships come into system how long they where there by having local logged properly to see who was in system.


And how is this different from, say... neutrals in local who are afk when you are mining/missioning in lowsec?

(the answer is that it isn't different at all)

Therefore, the annoyance, is "just something you have to deal with when you are not in highsec".

So nothing needs to change here, except maybe, that everyone who cannot deal* with this annoyance should move back to highsec.


* using the standard counter tactics that have already been mentioned many times in the thread.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.07.15 17:48:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Cendric De'Credsiu
This is the last time I will try and explain it to you all.

The issue is not that they are cloaked. Cloak mechanics do not need to change.

The issue is the tactic is not having the desired effect. People have become so used to it that while some folks post threads like this over all going into a system and cloaking and walking away from your keyboard is not causing the effects it should.

Yes all the countering tactics, running with friends ect, get used when a cloaky comes into system. That's not the issue. The issue is that while it disrupts a system and causes a little grief and lowered production. It in no way causes the effects that it should.

A cloak in system should stop that system in its tracks, while folks try and find him, bait him, kill him, work at protecting assets ect. That's what I want to see change. The cloak doesn't need to change just the AFK portion of it. Untill the afk portion of the tactic changes it will continue to be just an annoyance and that's the part I want to see change. I want to see this be more capable then what it is of disrupting a system.

For those that asked, I would create hours of fraps for intel for systems that I wanted to take down. Any good tactician gains as much information as he can before launching an attack. You also don't need fraps. There are programs out there that can "read" the info displayed on your screen and put it in a text format. Sit 130 off a gate cloaked up walk away and you get to see what kind of ships come into system how long they where there by having local logged properly to see who was in system.
Why are you avoiding my questions?

Gaara's sniper
Posted - 2011.07.15 19:42:00 - [123]
 

Make cloak drain cap.


DONE.

Baaldor
Black Sail Anarchists
Yarr Collective
Posted - 2011.07.15 19:44:00 - [124]
 

Originally by: Gaara's sniper
Make cloak drain cap.


DONE.


Learn to deal.


Done.

Page Starcaster
Gallente
Society of lost Souls
Posted - 2011.07.15 20:16:00 - [125]
 

Edited by: Page Starcaster on 15/07/2011 20:22:08

I skipped over most of this thread as it is a well known topic. but i had to add my 0.02 isk.

AFK cloaking is just another form of espionage or covert ops. It is no different than the police leaving an old squad car parked under a bridge or along the side of the road. It will deter speeders even if there is no COP in the car. It is one of the jobs cov ops ships such as recon ships are made for.

The ones that do this are generally the same characters in the same area's. after a while you will get to recognize most of them, and know when you see them in local, they are usually AFK. The truth is many do not do this to disrupt the system, but do it for gathering intel for their alliance. I have done this, not actually AFK, but to everyone else it would seem i was afk. I have several accounts, and when I am busy in fleet with one account I often will place characters from the accounts I am not using in cloakies and stick them in nearby hostile systems. Not to disrupt the system, I have no intention of ganking miners or ratters(unless I get bored) but I do it for intel, so I can alt tab over occasionally to see what is happening in the system, if a counter fleet is gathering there or not.

A good Fleet Commander always has scouts in the surrounding systems that they expect a possible counter attack from. The best way to avoid a surprise attack is to see them coming. Watch the systems you know they will be coming from. If you see a spike of reds in local, there is a good chance they are headed your way. Maybe your fleet can even go after them before they get organized and ready to fight. There is nothing like catching a fleet while they are forming up before the logi guys are ready. it always means a few easy kills before they get there **** together.

Just my 0.02 isk, but try to understand why players do things before you go and rage about it.

Cendric De'Credsiu
Posted - 2011.07.15 22:17:00 - [126]
 

Mag's I already answered your questions. Along with a lot of other folks. I don't want to see the cloak mechanics change at all. I want to see the tactic cause more chaos and problems for the folks in the systems, In return for that I want the cloaker to actually have to be at the keyboard.

Being sorta afk is fine your still on another account and changing back to it your still at the keyboard, with changing it to where you can't afk cloak it provides us with a lot more disruption, gives us the chance to try and bait you. Disrupts the system 10 times better then what it does now, generally provides more fun for all of us. I would rather spend an hour trying to bait said cloak to kill them then to know that they are afk and be stuck in my normal activities all the time.

So in short.

Make it to where you have to be at the keyboard, in return you all get better disruption of systems and more accurate intel on a system.

Benefit for the pvper: Better disruptions of the systems allowing you to prevent Industry level gains and better disruption of ratting.

Benefit for the carebear: Knowing that the cloaker is active and therefore allowing you to do the normal hide or to actually start getting into the pvp aspects of the game.

Cendric De'Credsiu
Posted - 2011.07.15 22:24:00 - [127]
 

Ohh and Mag's me thinks your looking at it from me complaining about the tactic being used on me. Its actually the other way around. I am looking at using the tactic and what I would like to see happen.

Lady Spank
Amarr
In Praise Of Shadows
Posted - 2011.07.15 22:31:00 - [128]
 

They should remove cloaks and probes from the game so its just like it used to be way back.

Baaldor
Black Sail Anarchists
Yarr Collective
Posted - 2011.07.16 01:24:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: Lady Spank
They should remove cloaks and probes from the game so its just like it used to be way back.


Like when there were dual MWD cruise missile spewing kessies?

Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
Posted - 2011.07.16 06:08:00 - [130]
 

Personly I think they should remove local and put in new probs that can do nothing other then prob out active cloaks both other wise BO's and other stealth ships become to powerfull.

But at the same time I think it should take like 5-10 mins to prob out a cloaked ship too. And you cant prob out any other ships becouse the probs should only be able to find active cloaks and nothing alse. Have to pull thoughs probs back and relauch the normal combat probs for ships and thoughs probs should not be aloud to find cloaks.

But thats just how I feel about it. I dont feel you should be 100% safe and unprobable no matter what and you diffently should not be in open space and be 100% safe and afk and still know your ship is going to be ok ether.


Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.16 06:36:00 - [131]
 

You're only 100% safe while cloaked. Once you have to move your ship out of the system, or undock if you docked earlier, you're subject to the dangers of gate and station camps.

But really - the FUD that cloakies seem to inspire is largely undeserved. With a little awareness and organisation, it's easy to protect one's self while ratting or mining. It's having to actually lift a finger that bothers the 0.0 carebears - they're worse than highsec carebears who at least know the realities of highsec.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.07.16 13:04:00 - [132]
 

Originally by: Cendric De'Credsiu
Mag's I already answered your questions.
No you haven't.

But this is all pointless argument now, as local is being nerfed. Wink

Flynn Fetladral
Royal Order of Security Specialists
Posted - 2011.07.16 14:53:00 - [133]
 

I don't see the problem with AFK cloaking, furthermore, I don't see how someone who is possibly not even at their computer has a 'tactical' advantage. The only people who this ever really seems to upset is 0.0 ratters in faction fit battleships who log off when a CTA gets called. HTFU.

Lady Spank
Amarr
In Praise Of Shadows
Posted - 2011.07.16 15:29:00 - [134]
 

Originally by: Baaldor
Originally by: Lady Spank
They should remove cloaks and probes from the game so its just like it used to be way back.


Like when there were dual MWD cruise missile spewing kessies?

And Cavalry Ravens, yes please.

Time Funnel
Posted - 2011.07.16 20:29:00 - [135]
 

Edited by: Time Funnel on 16/07/2011 20:31:52
Originally by: Miang Hawaa
This blatant exploit has gone on long enough. Players should not be allowed to have a tactical advantage while afk at any point. This defines exploit.

Everyone knows it is a problem. It has been for a very long time. Why has nothing been done?

What is being done about this frustrating problem?


This is the direct counter to your botting. So sorry. If CCP cannot stop it then AFK will save us all from robots.

Edit: Oh no these guys not at their computers are preventing me from making ISK while I am not at my computer. Tragedies.

Lakuma
Posted - 2011.07.17 02:48:00 - [136]
 

Originally by: Time Funnel
Edited by: Time Funnel on 16/07/2011 20:31:52
Originally by: Miang Hawaa
This blatant exploit has gone on long enough. Players should not be allowed to have a tactical advantage while afk at any point. This defines exploit.

Everyone knows it is a problem. It has been for a very long time. Why has nothing been done?

What is being done about this frustrating problem?


This is the direct counter to your botting. So sorry. If CCP cannot stop it then AFK will save us all from robots.

Edit: Oh no these guys not at their computers are preventing me from making ISK while I am not at my computer. Tragedies.


I read this, laughed, looked at my cat, and immediately realized this had the potential for a lolcat picture. Too bad my camera is broken. T_T

I thought this thread has effectively been shot down - but I guess some dead horses need beating still? Soundwave confirmed local is getting changed, if not outright removed, in nullsec - but it likely won't happen until the winter expansion.

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.17 06:13:00 - [137]
 

Without nullsec local won't they still stay in-station, terrified of what might be out there? After all - if an AFK cloakie scares them silly, imagine what the unknown will do! :-D

Seriously - I doubt any changes made will satisfy these nullsec crybabies.

Reaver Glitterstim
Legio Geminatus
Posted - 2011.07.29 08:01:00 - [138]
 

I think CCP should implement an AFK mechanic, and anyone who goes AFK from not moving their mouse or doing anything for a while will be decloaked. If you're actually sitting there looking at your screen when it happens, no problem, just re-cloak. AFK decloaking should not activate the re-cloak timer.

That way, people have to at least check up on their AFK cloaky once in a while. It's one thing to hold up a system, it's another thing entirely to go to the bar while your character holds up a system.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2011.07.29 10:35:00 - [139]
 

I think the solution is quite obvious. Sov 0.0 needs an upgrade that raises the sec status of the system, so people can bot in peace, protected by CONCORD. There still might be problems with suicide-gankers though, but I'm sure that another system upgrade involving increasing ship resists to 100% would solve that.

After all, Eve is supposed to be a sandbox, so if people want nullsec to be an effort-free, perfectly safe carebear paradise, then CCP must respect their wishes.

Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
Posted - 2011.07.29 10:37:00 - [140]
 

Edited by: Jint Hikaru on 29/07/2011 10:38:31
Edited by: Jint Hikaru on 29/07/2011 10:38:11
Originally by: Reaver Glitterstim
I think CCP should implement an AFK mechanic, and anyone who goes AFK from not moving their mouse or doing anything for a while will be decloaked. If you're actually sitting there looking at your screen when it happens, no problem, just re-cloak. AFK decloaking should not activate the re-cloak timer.

That way, people have to at least check up on their AFK cloaky once in a while. It's one thing to hold up a system, it's another thing entirely to go to the bar while your character holds up a system.


Fine by me, and I presume all the ALK cloakers out there. Thanks for the solution!

I'll just leave this here

Nerf-cloak whiners need to STFU. Protect your space if you want it nice and safe. Don't cry to you mom demanding that CCP changes the game to make it easiuer for you.

Dutarro
Matari Munitions
The Fendahlian Collective
Posted - 2011.07.29 11:20:00 - [141]
 

I don't live in 0.0 so forgive me if this suggestion is naive, but here goes ...

An alliance could create its own AFK cloaker insurance fund. Everyone pays a modest premium, and on the rare occasion that an AFK cloaker actually decloaks and kills a ship or two, the owners get a full refund. Therefore, if you see an AFK cloaker on local, you could still keep mining, ratting or whatever without worrying, since you'll get all your stuff back even if he comes after you.

This is one way to adapt to AFK cloakers without any kind of rule change by CCP.

Syekuda
Hell's Revenge
Posted - 2011.07.29 12:56:00 - [142]
 

I dont know what exactly is being done with CCP on this subject but I know they are doing something about it. I don't have the exact source but 1 dev wrote somewhere here that they are working on the problem. I don't know if it will be out on the winter expansion but it will go out.

and yes, I agree something should be done about this since theres no counter whatsoever about this afk cloaky.

My guess is they will make sure that cloaky will appear on scan when using probes I guess but really idk what they will do.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.07.29 14:03:00 - [143]
 

Originally by: Syekuda
I dont know what exactly is being done with CCP on this subject but I know they are doing something about it. I don't have the exact source but 1 dev wrote somewhere here that they are working on the problem. I don't know if it will be out on the winter expansion but it will go out.

and yes, I agree something should be done about this since theres no counter whatsoever about this afk cloaky.

My guess is they will make sure that cloaky will appear on scan when using probes I guess but really idk what they will do.
They are doing something about it? Where is your source?

This is all by the by now anyway, as a nerf to local is incoming with many changes to be made.
As it is Local that is the issue here, not the cloak. Wink

Page Starcaster
Gallente
Society of lost Souls
Posted - 2011.07.29 14:52:00 - [144]
 

I see no problem here.
Sticking a cloaked alt in another system to monitor what is happening there is the same as using a spy or recon unit in real warfare to find out what your enemies are up to.
Most big alliances and any serious null sec fleet commander uses these to watch for counter attacks coming from neighboring systems.

there are some players that leave alts logged in 23/7 sitting cloaked in a system just to grieve the locals. But this is not really an issue. Once you know who these are you can just ignore them. if they are AFK they are no threat. they can not attack you, they can not tell anyone else you are there. If they do attack you, or tell there intel channel they you are in that system, then they are obviously not AFK.

The players that exploit this mechanic are not a threat as they are afk. The players that are a threat, are obviously not afk and thus not exploiting, using this mechanic as intended, for stealth, covert ops, and spying.

Alexia page
Posted - 2011.07.29 15:12:00 - [145]
 

actually one idea that might actually fix this.

If players were removed from local chat while they are cloaked. this will actually increase the covert ops side of the game that spys could be in system without being seen until they make a hostile action. At the same time AFK cloakers will not be able to grieve because if nobody knows they are there and they do nothing hostile, they will just be ignored as they should be.

In order to balance this however they should add some sort of anti covert ops mechanic. a way that someone can specialize in tracking down a covert ops vessel. The whole point of covert ops is that knowbody knows you are there until you attack. but if they go to the point of removing all non aggressed covert ops cloaked pilots from local we need to have a way of detecting them by actively looking for them when we suspect they are in the system.

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.29 15:35:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: Syekuda
I dont know what exactly is being done with CCP on this subject but I know they are doing something about it. I don't have the exact source but 1 dev wrote somewhere here that they are working on the problem. I don't know if it will be out on the winter expansion but it will go out.

and yes, I agree something should be done about this since theres no counter whatsoever about this afk cloaky.

My guess is they will make sure that cloaky will appear on scan when using probes I guess but really idk what they will do.


"since theres no counter whatsoever about this afk cloaky"??? Are you on drugs? Or just really, really lame? You can't think of anything nullsec players can do to defend against a lone AFK cloaker?

May I please know which nullsec system you inhabit? I'd like to run my covert ops ship out there, and perma-cloak on an alt since it obviously scares the crap out of you :-D This is so cool - I can shut down a system with ONE ship and apparently nothing can be done about it! Whoop!

Meanwhile back in reality if you can't think of a single way to deal with a lone AFK cloaker, you're either a carebear botter renting a 0.0 system, or have never actually been in 0.0 yourself. Either way - wouldn't a game like WoW be better suited for you?

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.29 15:42:00 - [147]
 

Originally by: Dutarro
I don't live in 0.0 so forgive me if this suggestion is naive, but here goes ...

An alliance could create its own AFK cloaker insurance fund. Everyone pays a modest premium, and on the rare occasion that an AFK cloaker actually decloaks and kills a ship or two, the owners get a full refund. Therefore, if you see an AFK cloaker on local, you could still keep mining, ratting or whatever without worrying, since you'll get all your stuff back even if he comes after you.

This is one way to adapt to AFK cloakers without any kind of rule change by CCP.


Can you say insurance fraud?

Lady Spank
Amarr
In Praise Of Shadows
Posted - 2011.07.29 16:09:00 - [148]
 

In this discussion, cowards are ground to inactivity by a single unseen ship and expect CCP to come and hold their hands for them in what is deemed dangerous space.

Osmonde Jr
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.30 19:12:00 - [149]
 

Great solution to afker's remove local and so it is just like W space, problem solved. I also think that the same should be for low sec as well let high sec have their local since it is controlled by empire.

Marcus Gideon
Gallente
Federal Defense Operations
Posted - 2011.07.30 22:45:00 - [150]
 

Edited by: Marcus Gideon on 30/07/2011 23:04:56
1) The issue isn't "AFK Cloakers", it's your awareness of them. If Local were made into "Recent Speakers" all around, so the only faces you see are people who spoke in the last 15min, you'd have to be paranoid all the time instead of just when you see a strange face.

2) In the spirit of #1, try living in WHs instead of 0.0 where you never know if there's someone lurking. I notice the OP talking about solo ops in 0.0 and yet counters the WH argument by saying "Then have some friends guard the WHs and pull watch". So WH denizens are supposed to travel in groups for safety, but 0.0 dwellers should be allowed to solo through life?

3) The issue isn't "AFK Cloakers", as those are two completely distinct and separate words. "Cloaks" are the counter to Probes, and should be left alone in all regards. Asking for Probes that scan for cloaked ships is like complaining about ships with too much EHP and asking for armor piercing ammo that ignores Resists. The paranoia comes from not knowing whether another player is "AFK". This could be remedied in a number of ways.

- Have a little mark the depicts when someone is AFK. Then you won't try talking to corpies who haven't been around for hours.

- Log players out after lengthy periods of inactivity. There is nothing in the game that requires your presence, but not your involvement. If someone is cloaked, and providing active intel, they are chatting with their fleet/corp/alliance/whatever. That conversation means they are not (A)way (F)rom the (K)eyboard. However, if they are hidden in any regard, whether that's cloaked or just MWD'ing into deep space... and the player is nowhere near their desk... that person is truly AFK.

Of course there are ways macros could prevent someone from "timing out". However, macros are illegal, and would be dealt with on their own.


In summary, Cloaks aren't the problem. As "everything needs a counter", Cloaks are the only true way to counter Probes. Leave them alone.

Go after the real problem. The presence of someone in your system that you don't know.

Either remove the knowledge of their presence (fix Local), make it easier to tell if they're actually a threat (AFK flag), or...

Watch your borders better, and kill people when they invade!


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