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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.07.12 10:26:00 - [91]
 

Originally by: Toovhon
...But good job not knowing the speed capabilities of sub-caps while cloaked, or how far away one would have to be to escape tackling.

No serious pew'er cloaks their ships any more except maybe during logistics operations. Even macros/bots don't use cloaks any more for Goddess sake.
The only 'combat' cloaks I have seen the past 4 years are fail BB's and dictors plus an assortment of noobs who don't know any better.

Remember that any one change will have to be made together with a whole slew of companion changes, probeable cloaks would fit nicely with an elimination of local for instance and would naturally exclude "legitimate" uses (ie. all ships with cloak bonuses).

Loki Sei
Posted - 2011.07.12 12:07:00 - [92]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
You haven't lived in a worm with an organized crew I take it? All holes are tagged almost at time of spawn and collapsing the potentially dangerous ones them takes very little effort.
Keep in mind that the "real" worm dwellers don't solo crap like you are probably used to, so a T3 gang poses no significant threat ..


Right, no one ever gets ambushed in WH space while doing sites. I have been on both sides of that equation, and if a group is mobilized it takes about a minutes or two to ambush a group with a HIC and gang.

Also ask CCRES how long it took AHARM to boot them from W-Space. Guarantee it was not 6 months.

But aside from that, you are missing the whole point of my argument. These "ISK-*****s" don't live in W-Space because they have to work to find the limited supply of combat sites and mining sites. They want upgraded null sec to be soft and warm, and have the ability to put a cloaked ship several jumps out and watch local for incoming gangs. They want to make isk hand by chaining belts, grav sites and combat sites that respawn in a minute.

You are right the whole balance of null is broken, there is no way to effectively hunt industrial and ratters, and they have no effective way to stop running from AFK cloakers. It is a poor balance, but a balance none the less. To eliminate the AFK Cloak without giving some way to hunt these types of players would throw off the balance.


Icke Himal
Posted - 2011.07.12 13:06:00 - [93]
 

+1

Auto log out for afks after an ammount of time (1hr?). Not even low or 0.0

Portmanteau
Gallente
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2011.07.12 16:15:00 - [94]
 

Jesus I don't even live is 0.0 and I can think of several ways to cope with this tactic

1. stay aligned, really not hard to do, warp as soon as you see the ebil person uncloak

2. Rat with a couple of friends, 3 v 1 should be fairly easy to manage if you don't all fill your pants at the sight of a red

3. have a falcon alt / friend / whatever handy (I'm sure you null bears can manage this one already)

4. move to the next system

5. Actually think tactically and bait / kill the dude in the cloaky (best option surely)

Damn, if I can manage to rat my sec status up in 0.0 where EVERYONE is hostile to me, surely you can manage in a 0.0 area you own, that's FULL OF BLUES and only has 1 enemy in it Rolling Eyes

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.12 17:26:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Toovhon
...But good job not knowing the speed capabilities of sub-caps while cloaked, or how far away one would have to be to escape tackling.

No serious pew'er cloaks their ships any more except maybe during logistics operations. Even macros/bots don't use cloaks any more for Goddess sake.
The only 'combat' cloaks I have seen the past 4 years are fail BB's and dictors plus an assortment of noobs who don't know any better.


You've obviously not spent much time in other people's space if you think cloaking isn't used by PvPers.

Baaldor
Black Sail Anarchists
Yarr Collective
Posted - 2011.07.12 17:27:00 - [96]
 

Originally by: Toovhon
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Toovhon
...But good job not knowing the speed capabilities of sub-caps while cloaked, or how far away one would have to be to escape tackling.

No serious pew'er cloaks their ships any more except maybe during logistics operations. Even macros/bots don't use cloaks any more for Goddess sake.
The only 'combat' cloaks I have seen the past 4 years are fail BB's and dictors plus an assortment of noobs who don't know any better.


You've obviously not spent much time in other people's space if you think cloaking isn't used by PvPers.


^^this

DNSBLACK
Gallente
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
Posted - 2011.07.12 18:16:00 - [97]
 

AFK = AWAY FROM KEYBOARD

1. I have yet to hear of one incident that involved a AFK player killing another player who was sitting at his key board.

2. The issue is not cloaking it is AFK. So lets do away with all AFKERS.

a. Player in stations are ejected every 30 minutes so they have to redock. I hate flying 30 jumps into 0.0 to a station system with 30 people in it all docked up and afk.

b. I want a weapon called the fumigator that after going into siege mode on a dread attachs itself to a station and injects poisen gas so all players who dont undock with in 5 min will begin to lose skill points. After undocking the gas blocks their ability to redock for 5 min.

c. POS ship draggingTractor beam that attachs to a dread and can drag players out of a pos who are afk. If they are active all they have to do is fly back to the tower and the beam is broke.

Or how about you come to grips with the fact until CCP hooks you up to your computer with a wireless implant that tells the server when you are not sitting and playing eve you should get over your fears of being killed by people who are not touching there key board.

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.12 18:27:00 - [98]
 

Edited by: Toovhon on 12/07/2011 18:27:36
^Nice :-D

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.07.12 19:01:00 - [99]
 

Originally by: Toovhon
You've obviously not spent much time in other people's space if you think cloaking isn't used by PvPers.

That is where the difference is, you probably think that killing PvE'ers is PvP whereas I consider it ratting ..
Use a cloak on a ship not designed for it against a willing and armed opponent .. doesn't do very well at all.

There's a reason why cloaks on "combat" fits are laughed at when they appear on the various killboards.

Baaldor
Black Sail Anarchists
Yarr Collective
Posted - 2011.07.12 19:30:00 - [100]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Toovhon
You've obviously not spent much time in other people's space if you think cloaking isn't used by PvPers.

That is where the difference is, you probably think that killing PvE'ers is PvP whereas I consider it ratting ..
Use a cloak on a ship not designed for it against a willing and armed opponent .. doesn't do very well at all.

There's a reason why cloaks on "combat" fits are laughed at when they appear on the various killboards.


Who is laughing exactly? I can not think of one, serious 0.0 presence past or present that has not used or continues to use this tactic. It is a widely used tactic in 0.0 across the board. And it is not all about popping fat jewbears, flying pinatas. They just happen to get in the way sometimes.

Javelin6
Dirt Nap Squad
Posted - 2011.07.12 19:52:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: DNSBLACK
AFK = AWAY FROM KEYBOARD

1. I have yet to hear of one incident that involved a AFK player killing another player who was sitting at his key board.

2. The issue is not cloaking it is AFK. So lets do away with all AFKERS.

a. Player in stations are ejected every 30 minutes so they have to redock. I hate flying 30 jumps into 0.0 to a station system with 30 people in it all docked up and afk.

b. I want a weapon called the fumigator that after going into siege mode on a dread attachs itself to a station and injects poisen gas so all players who dont undock with in 5 min will begin to lose skill points. After undocking the gas blocks their ability to redock for 5 min.

c. POS ship draggingTractor beam that attachs to a dread and can drag players out of a pos who are afk. If they are active all they have to do is fly back to the tower and the beam is broke.

Or how about you come to grips with the fact until CCP hooks you up to your computer with a wireless implant that tells the server when you are not sitting and playing eve you should get over your fears of being killed by people who are not touching there key board.


This.


The argument for years boils down to: YOU want CCP to develop a game mechanic to compensate for your own Fear/Paranoia.

Its a multi-player game. Don't do anything alone and there wont be an issue.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.07.12 20:25:00 - [102]
 

Edited by: Mag''s on 12/07/2011 20:42:41
Originally by: Portmanteau
Originally by: Eperor

allready exist sych programms with are using frapses and that can be counted outomatikly no need even count them manyaly with all ship names insted.

my eyes Sad
Indeed.

Originally by: Icke Himal
Auto log out for afks after an ammount of time (1hr?). Not even low or 0.0
Easily bypassed, as has been said numerous times before.

Lykouleon
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.07.12 21:20:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: Eperor
:words:


I yelled at your corp 4 years ago for being stupid and not docking up or moving to a different system with AFK cloakers in system and known active reds in the system next door.

You still haven't learned :whelp:

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.13 02:00:00 - [104]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Toovhon
You've obviously not spent much time in other people's space if you think cloaking isn't used by PvPers.

That is where the difference is, you probably think that killing PvE'ers is PvP whereas I consider it ratting ..
Use a cloak on a ship not designed for it against a willing and armed opponent .. doesn't do very well at all.

There's a reason why cloaks on "combat" fits are laughed at when they appear on the various killboards.


I think that I've had many a cat and mouse game with gate camps and locals in my stealth bomber, etc. I don't recall ever being laughed at, and while I was sometimes able to catch the unprepared PvEers, I also engaged PvP targets of opportunity who were trying to find me and my mates, camp the gate/station/whatever in question, etc.

So again I suggest you're unfamiliar with the fun and damage (can someone say "BOMB!"? :-D ) a group of cloaked PvPers can have.

Not to mention the many times a black ops crew have snuck a fleet behind the lines. What was that well reported engagement in Providence I think, where an alliance snuck a fleet of mostly stealth bombers to a mining op (that was betrayed by some of the miners), and took out a rorqual? That was very funny. Who was that? Gah - memory failing...

Ned Black
Posted - 2011.07.13 07:21:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
You haven't lived in a worm with an organized crew I take it? All holes are tagged almost at time of spawn and collapsing the potentially dangerous ones them takes very little effort.
Keep in mind that the "real" worm dwellers don't solo crap like you are probably used to, so a T3 gang poses no significant threat .. read the long story about the first entity to ever be kicked out of a worm .. took almost six months if I recall (R&K doing the deed I think).


Right back at you. Have you ever been in a organized WH crew? Sure as hell does not sound like it. A T3 gang poses no significant threat? That is just so wrong on so many levels...

You TRY to keep your home system reasonably "safe", but you can never ever be 100% sure. 2 seconds after scanning a new WH may pop into your system and suddenly you have that "insignificant T3 gang threat" decloaking right next to you so that they can proceed to give you a nice suprice buttsex session.

I told one of the new guys is that if he manages to survive the initial period of WH life, which is kind of a huge change to someone used to 0.0, he will most likely never go back to K-space and he will start to frown on all the sniveling 0.0 people that scatter like vermin to a light as soon as you enter their system. 0.0 people must be the safest people in the game, yet they are probably the ones that are the most scared as well.

You 0.0 people have your infailable local intel channel, and since you do you know stuff you really should not know and that makes you scared.

The simple fact is... Local turns boys into (cry)babybears. This thread is the perfect example of that fact.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.07.13 08:02:00 - [106]
 

Originally by: Toovhon
I think that I've had many a cat and mouse game with gate camps and locals in my stealth bomber, etc. ....

Oh you are suddenly speaking of ships designed with cloaking in mind, well guess where/when my "laughed at" comment was made .. let me quote you for ease of reference:
Originally by: Toovhon
No, I'm mainly referring to Battlecruisers and battleships as I don't fly caps myself (nor do I have much interest in doing so). Most BCs and BSes cannot fly fast enough cloaked to make probing cloaked ships fail for them, if they're set to burn in a straight line. Nano fits might change that, but they have been impractical for larger ships since the nano nerf....

Had tons of fun with lots of cloaking BC/BS lately then? Did the people who slaughtered you commend you on your inspired fitting choices or did they laugh at you as if you just wet yourself in public?

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.07.13 08:08:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: Toovhon
I think that I've had many a cat and mouse game with gate camps and locals in my stealth bomber, etc. ....

Oh you are suddenly speaking of ships designed with cloaking in mind, well guess where/when my "laughed at" comment was made .. let me quote you for ease of reference:
Originally by: Toovhon
No, I'm mainly referring to Battlecruisers and battleships as I don't fly caps myself (nor do I have much interest in doing so). Most BCs and BSes cannot fly fast enough cloaked to make probing cloaked ships fail for them, if they're set to burn in a straight line. Nano fits might change that, but they have been impractical for larger ships since the nano nerf....

Had tons of fun with lots of cloaking BC/BS lately then? Did the people who slaughtered you commend you on your inspired fitting choices or did they laugh at you as if you just wet yourself in public?
Originally by: Ned Black
..The simple fact is... Local turns boys into (cry)babybears. This thread is the perfect example of that fact.

Quite right. The delayed local works really well in worms, for defender and attacker both.
Now what kind of effect would it have if cynos were possible and all worms lasted for 24-72hrs with no mass restrictions? .. the two can not be compared or used as examples of how the other can/should be as the revolving doors make all the difference.

Ned Black
Posted - 2011.07.13 08:37:00 - [108]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Quite right. The delayed local works really well in worms, for defender and attacker both.
Now what kind of effect would it have if cynos were possible and all worms lasted for 24-72hrs with no mass restrictions? .. the two can not be compared or used as examples of how the other can/should be as the revolving doors make all the difference.


Would it suprise you greatly if I said that I would like black ops cynos to work in WHs?

To me that would be very cool indeed.

0.0 is supposed to be unsafe, yet it is the most safe place in eve. And from reading what you really write the big problem is not the cloaky ship but the ability of said ships to put up a cyno... so the thing you really should be talking about is to nerf cynos.

Personally I WOULD like to change the way cloaks work entirely. From the Prototype cloak that should just remove you from overview but leave you fully visible in space and directional, to the improved cloak that removes overview and directional and adds a "blurring" effect making you hard to see if you are stationary in space, and finally the covert ops cloak that should remove you from the above and local as well as making you totally invisible while stationary and only very slightly visible while moving.

Icke Himal
Posted - 2011.07.13 09:06:00 - [109]
 

Originally by: Icke Himal
Auto log out for afks after an ammount of time (1hr?). Not even low or 0.0
Easily bypassed, as has been said numerous times before.


Im not realy sure if i understood this right but if i am then the Question of that action ist How much efford neds that mechanic (near zero) will everyone who uses the afk-cloack-tactic bypass it (guess not)so will it minimize some problems a bit (guess yes).
Just a first step. But if there were bypass arguments that often, the request for that mechanic seems a minimum that often.

Maybe the first topic in that direction should just be the topic "Support Autologout" and if the problem is still that present, some additional ways can be looked for.
And there are always some other reasons wich can be solved by an autologout (i guess again^^).

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.07.13 09:45:00 - [110]
 

Originally by: Ned Black
Would it suprise you greatly if I said that I would like black ops cynos to work in WHs?

To me that would be very cool indeed...

Would be cool, but it would skew the power ratio so much in favour of an attacker that no one will ever put down roots in worms.
Would be similar to removing cyno jammers from game, it will quickly degenerate into Hot-drop-o'clock 23/7 with no thought or reason other than "just because". Any sort of permanent residence would be made impossible to maintain for any period of time.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2011.07.13 10:15:00 - [111]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Ned Black
Would it suprise you greatly if I said that I would like black ops cynos to work in WHs?

To me that would be very cool indeed...

Would be cool, but it would skew the power ratio so much in favour of an attacker that no one will ever put down roots in worms.
Would be similar to removing cyno jammers from game, it will quickly degenerate into Hot-drop-o'clock 23/7 with no thought or reason other than "just because". Any sort of permanent residence would be made impossible to maintain for any period of time.


Yeah, that sounds horrible. One of the great advantages of WH space is that force projection is much harder; another is that scouting is a difficult profession requiring effort and skill. With blackops cynos in WH space, any engagement could end up with an unscoutable gank squad being hotdropped on top of you.


Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.13 11:02:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Toovhon
I think that I've had many a cat and mouse game with gate camps and locals in my stealth bomber, etc. ....

Oh you are suddenly speaking of ships designed with cloaking in mind, well guess where/when my "laughed at" comment was made .. let me quote you for ease of reference:
Originally by: Toovhon
No, I'm mainly referring to Battlecruisers and battleships as I don't fly caps myself (nor do I have much interest in doing so). Most BCs and BSes cannot fly fast enough cloaked to make probing cloaked ships fail for them, if they're set to burn in a straight line. Nano fits might change that, but they have been impractical for larger ships since the nano nerf....

Had tons of fun with lots of cloaking BC/BS lately then? Did the people who slaughtered you commend you on your inspired fitting choices or did they laugh at you as if you just wet yourself in public?


You're really not very bright or experienced in Eve, are you?

Ok, let's talk BCs and BSes. I like the Drake myself, with it's handy free eighth high slow to fit a cloak in. It's very handy for slipping past gate camps using the old trick of pulsing one's MWD, cloak, then uncloak and straight to warp once the MWD finishes it's cycle, or you're out of the warp disruption field.

Again I don't remember being laughed at for slipping a gang of larger sub-caps through a camp and on to an attack. In fact I'd say it was more tears like yours on the other side when we were successful.

Or maybe you want an example of cloaks used directly in combat (or as direct as you can, given you can't exactly fire cloaked, heh), not just to get the ships there?

Ok - more than once I've lain in wait using a regular cloak either solo or as a small group, for a victim to pass by. If they're sloppy or simply not aware your character is a threat (it helps to make sure you're not a red), this works well. They get close, you de-cloak and spring the trap.

Unless you're going to cry that's more 'unfair' play :-D, then there's your use of regular cloaking in combat.

It's also been handy to use a ship with a regular cloak as a spy already in place, when they don't have to warp somewhere else cloaked, and/or you expect them to die (a T1 ship with a regular cloak costs a lot less than a T2 covert ops ship).

Oh, and though it only works the once, there was also the time we warped in a small missile sniping fleet and a group of heavy tackle Drakes, a couple hundred km off a gate camp. The Drakes immediately cloaked. The sniping BSes started attacking. Not being the best and brightest Eve has to offer, the campers turned on their MWDs and powered towards us, either unaware there had briefly been a lot more ships on their overview, or that local showed more of us, or perhaps just not caring - as I said - not the best and brightest.

The snipers pulsed MWDs, cloaked and scattered making them hard to bump into. Then our second group of heavy assault Drakes de-cloaked and tackled the incoming campers as they reached our snipe spot. Panic ensured, and the snipers de-cloaked again, and re-joined the attack, unleashing their drones as well. At that point our Drakes with their huge tank were targeted, and not our paper tank DPS fit BSes. The campers were slow to switch targets back, and we annihilated them before they could take out any of our BSes (one of our Drakes did bite the dust, IIRC) :-)

And that, dear fool, is just some of the fun that can be had with non-covert ops cloaked sub-caps.

Master Hu
Caldari
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
Posted - 2011.07.13 22:34:00 - [113]
 

Edited by: Master Hu on 13/07/2011 22:35:04
So does AFK stand for "away from keyboard and not watching what is going on and have no clue what is going on in local and can't kill you since I am AFK" or "away from keg and need to refill my beerses?

Lakuma
Posted - 2011.07.13 23:35:00 - [114]
 

3 supports...

...that ought to tell you how many people actually see AFK cloakers as a problem. I mean, it's been on front page how long now?

Nocte Eisner
Caldari
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
Posted - 2011.07.14 00:29:00 - [115]
 

There is no problem with AFK cloaking.

Improvise, adapt, overcome.

Randal Eirikr
Posted - 2011.07.14 05:36:00 - [116]
 

I have a Red who constantly, probably 20 hours a day, AFK cloaks in my system.

And I don't give a rats ass about it. Know why? I check my D-scan when I rat/mission, I have friends on Comms/Chats who, while they are doing their own ****, are also ready to help a friend in need as soon as **** gets real.

Its Not Hard. Either adapt and work with others, or die in a fire because you're too lazy to manage the 'perceived' threat of an AFK cloaker. I'll be honest, when I first came to 0.0 I thought it was ******ed as hell too, but now that I've got many months under my belt of living in Null, I've not only grown used to it, but I counter it often.

As for the fear of him having a Cyno... be aligned? Have intel on his Corp/past engagements/etc?

There are many things players can do to minimize the risks they are presented with. The question is just how much effort are you willing to put in for that Bounty Tick or Mission Reward. If you can't be bothered to put the effort into countering an AFK cloaker, then why the flying $&%@ are you in 0.0 space?

Aries Aion
Posted - 2011.07.14 06:32:00 - [117]
 

Give cloaks a timer, 10 minutes for example, train it up and have an implant and you will get a few more minutes. Once your timer is up you will have 30 seconds or whatever before you can reactivate your cloak. That way if your afk you will de-cloak and can be scanned and found. OR make the cloak run on some kind of fuel that takes cargo space. Can't stay cloaked forever if you need to go refuel it. Personally I like it the way it is right now, if its not a risk its not worth doing. Mining and rating while someone is in your space just means you have to be a little attentive while you do it. HAVE FUN AND FLY SAFE.

Sgt Chop
Posted - 2011.07.14 23:37:00 - [118]
 

Originally by: Miang Hawaa
This blatant exploit has gone on long enough. Players should not be allowed to have a tactical advantage while afk at any point. This defines exploit.

Everyone knows it is a problem. It has been for a very long time. Why has nothing been done?

What is being done about this frustrating problem?


Aww Tears.... get over it

Cendric De'Credsiu
Posted - 2011.07.15 16:21:00 - [119]
 

This is the last time I will try and explain it to you all.

The issue is not that they are cloaked. Cloak mechanics do not need to change.

The issue is the tactic is not having the desired effect. People have become so used to it that while some folks post threads like this over all going into a system and cloaking and walking away from your keyboard is not causing the effects it should.

Yes all the countering tactics, running with friends ect, get used when a cloaky comes into system. That's not the issue. The issue is that while it disrupts a system and causes a little grief and lowered production. It in no way causes the effects that it should.

A cloak in system should stop that system in its tracks, while folks try and find him, bait him, kill him, work at protecting assets ect. That's what I want to see change. The cloak doesn't need to change just the AFK portion of it. Untill the afk portion of the tactic changes it will continue to be just an annoyance and that's the part I want to see change. I want to see this be more capable then what it is of disrupting a system.

For those that asked, I would create hours of fraps for intel for systems that I wanted to take down. Any good tactician gains as much information as he can before launching an attack. You also don't need fraps. There are programs out there that can "read" the info displayed on your screen and put it in a text format. Sit 130 off a gate cloaked up walk away and you get to see what kind of ships come into system how long they where there by having local logged properly to see who was in system.

elegance refined
Posted - 2011.07.15 16:34:00 - [120]
 

Originally by: Cendric De'Credsiu
This is the last time I will try and explain it to you all.

The issue is not that they are cloaked. Cloak mechanics do not need to change.

The issue is the tactic is not having the desired effect. People have become so used to it that while some folks post threads like this over all going into a system and cloaking and walking away from your keyboard is not causing the effects it should.

Yes all the countering tactics, running with friends ect, get used when a cloaky comes into system. That's not the issue. The issue is that while it disrupts a system and causes a little grief and lowered production. It in no way causes the effects that it should.

A cloak in system should stop that system in its tracks, while folks try and find him, bait him, kill him, work at protecting assets ect. That's what I want to see change. The cloak doesn't need to change just the AFK portion of it. Untill the afk portion of the tactic changes it will continue to be just an annoyance and that's the part I want to see change. I want to see this be more capable then what it is of disrupting a system.

For those that asked, I would create hours of fraps for intel for systems that I wanted to take down. Any good tactician gains as much information as he can before launching an attack. You also don't need fraps. There are programs out there that can "read" the info displayed on your screen and put it in a text format. Sit 130 off a gate cloaked up walk away and you get to see what kind of ships come into system how long they where there by having local logged properly to see who was in system.


Seems to me the simple solution to the afk cloaker is requireing cloaks to actual use cap !to generate a system that reflects the universe around you should require a great deal of energy to accomplish ! This way it requires the cloaker to to recharge cap while decloaked and gives the carebears time to hunt him down ,,,,, bahahaha who am i kidding they will still hide and whine ,,,, but still this is a sound solution to the issue !


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