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Lykouleon
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.07.10 15:44:00 - [31]
 

Yup, another "I DON'T LEIK CLOAKS BECUZ I CANNOT FIGURE DEMZ OUT, WHY THIS GAME NO EASY LIKE WoW WAA WAA WAA" thread reaches its climax.

See you all at the next one o/

Miang Hawaa
Posted - 2011.07.10 20:03:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Lykouleon
Yup, another "I DON'T LEIK CLOAKS BECUZ I CANNOT FIGURE DEMZ OUT, WHY THIS GAME NO EASY LIKE WoW WAA WAA WAA" thread reaches its climax.

See you all at the next one o/


What precisely do I not 'get' about cloaking mechanics?

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.10 20:27:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Miang Hawaa
Originally by: Lykouleon
Yup, another "I DON'T LEIK CLOAKS BECUZ I CANNOT FIGURE DEMZ OUT, WHY THIS GAME NO EASY LIKE WoW WAA WAA WAA" thread reaches its climax.

See you all at the next one o/


What precisely do I not 'get' about cloaking mechanics?


Everything? That's it's no exploit and you're the one failing? :-D

Miang Hawaa
Posted - 2011.07.10 20:34:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Toovhon
Originally by: Miang Hawaa
Originally by: Lykouleon
Yup, another "I DON'T LEIK CLOAKS BECUZ I CANNOT FIGURE DEMZ OUT, WHY THIS GAME NO EASY LIKE WoW WAA WAA WAA" thread reaches its climax.

See you all at the next one o/


What precisely do I not 'get' about cloaking mechanics?


Everything? That's it's no exploit and you're the one failing? :-D


Wrong. Try again.

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.07.10 20:51:00 - [35]
 

The problem isn't the AFK cloaker, he can't do anything to you. The problem is Local telling you he is there at all.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.07.10 21:03:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Val'Dore
The problem isn't the AFK cloaker, he can't do anything to you. The problem is Local telling you he is there at all.
Val, they don't want to hear facts, they simply want risk free PvE.

inb4 "but there's no risk in cloaking and going AFK for hours" answering with yes, when cloaked everyone is safe until the cloak is deactivated, then everyone is at risk. But without local, AFKing is pointless as a psychological weapon.

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.07.10 21:04:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Mag's
Originally by: Val'Dore
The problem isn't the AFK cloaker, he can't do anything to you. The problem is Local telling you he is there at all.
Val, they don't want to hear facts, they simply want risk free PvE.

inb4 "but there's no risk in cloaking and going AFK for hours" answering with yes, when cloaked everyone is safe until the cloak is deactivated, then everyone is at risk. But without local, AFKing is pointless as a psychological weapon.


The Carebear infection is spreading... even CCP has it now.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.07.10 21:13:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Mag''s on 10/07/2011 21:22:22
Originally by: Val'Dore
Originally by: Mag's
Val, they don't want to hear facts, they simply want risk free PvE.

inb4 "but there's no risk in cloaking and going AFK for hours" answering with yes, when cloaked everyone is safe until the cloak is deactivated, then everyone is at risk. But without local, AFKing is pointless as a psychological weapon.


The Carebear infection is spreading... even CCP has it now.
I kind of agree although there is a small chance things may get better, but I'm not holding my breath.

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Depran Depran

AFK Cloakers i 0,0: No change needed. It is a Black Ops strategy and active Intelligenge gathering about the system and its player compositon, needed for later attack strategies. Should we likewise suggest to abollish gatecamps in 0,0 space, just because it seriously harms my welth? ?

>> I think gatecamps are fine. Itís one of the more tangible ways for alliances and corps to protect their areas geographically and while a lot of people donít see it as the most exciting form of PVP, itís as legitimate as any other.
Making money wasnít meant to be done in complete safety. If anything, Iím a little afraid that EVE has gotten soft; Weíre too used to playing in safety, and Iíd be more likely to cut some wires in that safety net than add more.


Edit: Just in case you didn't know, that can be found in the Dev answers thread here.

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.10 21:27:00 - [39]
 

They'll keep crying and whinging unless they feel 100% safe. How are they failing so epically to get that low and null sec is not supposed to be safe? :-D

Miang Hawaa
Posted - 2011.07.10 21:52:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Toovhon
They'll keep crying and whinging unless they feel 100% safe. How are they failing so epically to get that low and null sec is not supposed to be safe? :-D


It's cute that you ***gots continuously repeat this, but nobody in this thread has implied that nullsec is supposed to be safe.

Miang Hawaa
Posted - 2011.07.10 21:54:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Mag's
Originally by: Val'Dore
The problem isn't the AFK cloaker, he can't do anything to you. The problem is Local telling you he is there at all.
Val, they don't want to hear facts, they simply want risk free PvE.

inb4 "but there's no risk in cloaking and going AFK for hours" answering with yes, when cloaked everyone is safe until the cloak is deactivated, then everyone is at risk. But without local, AFKing is pointless as a psychological weapon.


Because covops don't exist.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.07.10 22:17:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Miang Hawaa
Originally by: Mag's
Originally by: Val'Dore
The problem isn't the AFK cloaker, he can't do anything to you. The problem is Local telling you he is there at all.
Val, they don't want to hear facts, they simply want risk free PvE.

inb4 "but there's no risk in cloaking and going AFK for hours" answering with yes, when cloaked everyone is safe until the cloak is deactivated, then everyone is at risk. But without local, AFKing is pointless as a psychological weapon.


Because covops don't exist.
To be understood, you should at least make a coherent post that makes sense. Then people will understand what you are talking about.

You may as well have just replied "Purple Monkey Socks" tbh.

Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.10 22:18:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Miang Hawaa

Explain what counter measures you can employ against this.



I can think of 3:

* HTFU;

* Use D-Scan to see if they have probes out;

* Remove local; fixed. :)

Lakuma
Posted - 2011.07.10 23:29:00 - [44]
 

For all the fear there is of afk cloakers...

...I really can't see why people fear them. Yes they have a tactical advantage with zero risk being unable to be scanned. But the fact is, you shouldn't be working in lowsec/nullsec without protection anyways.

If you see FIVE people in local and can't find any of them, yeah they may be afk but you'd still be holed up because they may be a gang waiting on you.

If you see ONE person in local and can't find them, grab a buddy to watch your back. Or five. Hell, have two of them use battleships to mine - the guy, if an active enemy, won't actually know what you have equipped and will leave you alone.

Point is: sorry, afk cloaking causes stress but it's not like they are an invincible hammer of doom waiting to smash on you. Local behaves this way for a reason - you can guess what kind of threat there is just by the number of people. It's also a tactical move by enemies: we'll post five or six alts in an enemy industrial system sometimes just to make them think we have unscannable tengus waiting to hit them. They've done the same to us I'm sure.

As will all things low and nullsec - BUDDY SYSTEM YOU NUMBSKULL - if you're afraid or unsure, bring friends! If local explodes in a frenzy of people, gtfo and hole up, local is nice like that. You people make this a bigger problem than it really is. Can you imagine what WH would be like if it had a local? Nobody would go out there hardly if they all thought like you! If you're trying to help out your corp/alliance on off hours and solo, welcome to the world of low/null: it's not safe, don't solo it if you're afraid to lose it. Rule #1 of EVE - don't fly what you can't afford to lose.

Roonia
Posted - 2011.07.10 23:43:00 - [45]
 

Um i think a lot of people are missing the point.

Its not that the AFK cloaker can do something or not, its because you dont know if he is AFK and it makes a HUGE difference if he is AFK. There are lots of things a cloaky can do to you.

NOBODY should have unkillable and un-findable status for days on end without EVER needing to leave a system. They are invincible, you cant do **** against them, thats the whole point. And they can keep on being invincible forever and just be a pain in the ass forever and there isnt **** you can do against them...did i say that already?

Im sorry but having some guy sit in a system for weeks on end, even FOREVER without anyone being able to find him is ****ed up, period. If you guys cannot see how wrong that is, get a ****in lobotomy.

Lakuma
Posted - 2011.07.11 00:25:00 - [46]
 

Quote:
NOBODY should have unkillable and un-findable status for days on end without EVER needing to leave a system. They are invincible, you cant do **** against them, thats the whole point. And they can keep on being invincible forever and just be a pain in the ass forever and there isnt **** you can do against them...did i say that already?


Take WH space then - you can do the exact same thing there and never know it, yet that person is still 'invincible'. You have to admit that the only reason an afk cloaker is a problem is because you actually know they are there. What about hisec? Local shows them, you know they're from a wardec corp, but you can't find them?

The fact is that you can't do anything about it, as you've already stated, and you're not MEANT to be able to do anything about it. Sec space has the advantage of local - you at least know they are there, in wh you don't even know who is watching you unless you constantly scan for probes too. Popping a d-scan every so often is not that difficult, nor is acquiring a few friends to watch your back (FEW - like three tops).

You have yet to provide a concrete reason why having friends, d-scan, or the EVE Rule #1 doesn't cover why afk cloaking is ok. I won't even touch the fact afk cloaking really only directly affects two things: people too paranoid and weak to do anything about it, and botters - which are really just the first thing. If you want to solo in low/null, you'll have to accept that afk cloakers are there. You are misinterpreting the usefulness of local as a stress-inducing problem, not intel that tips you off to potential attackers.

As a side note - it's not griefing, consider EVE in general, it doesn't violate EULA, and that is one more account making money for CCP doing nothing at all (or maybe plotting your demise, both work really). Cloaks are designed for a reason - mess with them and you further degrade black ops (if even possible) as well as severely harm the intel-gathering side of the game.

TL;DR You haven't provided a concrete reason why having friends, d-scan, or EVE Rule #1 don't handle cloaked ships, afk or not, nor have you explained how they are more of a threat when viewable in local as opposed to being 'unseen' at all in WH space.

Miang Hawaa
Posted - 2011.07.11 01:11:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Mag's
Originally by: Miang Hawaa
Originally by: Mag's
Originally by: Val'Dore
The problem isn't the AFK cloaker, he can't do anything to you. The problem is Local telling you he is there at all.
Val, they don't want to hear facts, they simply want risk free PvE.

inb4 "but there's no risk in cloaking and going AFK for hours" answering with yes, when cloaked everyone is safe until the cloak is deactivated, then everyone is at risk. But without local, AFKing is pointless as a psychological weapon.


Because covops don't exist.
To be understood, you should at least make a coherent post that makes sense. Then people will understand what you are talking about.

You may as well have just replied "Purple Monkey Socks" tbh.


When even simple sarcasm flies over your head, I have to wonder how you managed to even get the game installed. Stay in school, kid.

Lakuma
Posted - 2011.07.11 01:17:00 - [48]
 

Quote:
When even simple sarcasm flies over your head, I have to wonder how you managed to even get the game installed. Stay in school, kid.


I cannot help but notice you only respond to the insults and trolls in this thread, not those constructively arguing why afk cloaking isn't a problem. If you want to be taken seriously, start by responding to your actual opposition. By avoiding the valid points made and simply insulting the insulters, your proving yourself only as a troll.

Explain how this is different from WH space where you can't see them at all. Also explain why having friends, d-scan for probes, and the inherent rule of "Don't fly what you can't afford to lose" isn't enough for handling afk cloakers, be they one or several?

Carmen Martino
Posted - 2011.07.11 01:46:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Miang Hawaa
This blatant exploit has gone on long enough. Players should not be allowed to have a tactical advantage while afk at any point. This defines exploit.

Everyone knows it is a problem. It has been for a very long time. Why has nothing been done?

What is being done about this frustrating problem?


If I had one tear drop from every whiny ***** who started one of these threads I would never need to buy lube again. This is far from an exploit. Get over it and maybe pay attention while you bot.

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.11 05:41:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Miang Hawaa
Originally by: Toovhon
They'll keep crying and whinging unless they feel 100% safe. How are they failing so epically to get that low and null sec is not supposed to be safe? :-D


It's cute that you ***gots continuously repeat this, but nobody in this thread has implied that nullsec is supposed to be safe.


So you're saying you went into unsecured space knowing it wasn't safe, and now you're whinging because... unsafe things happened?

Sorry, am I missing something here? Is their some kind of bizarro logic I need to comprehend, before I can understand why you're crying about low/null sec's lack of safety, when you knew it to be unsafe in the first place?

Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Shadow Confederation
Posted - 2011.07.11 06:24:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Drake Draconis on 11/07/2011 06:25:08
I suspect even if local was removed this OP would still be *****ing about it even then.


QFTW:
Quote:
So you're saying you went into unsecured space knowing it wasn't safe, and now you're whinging because... unsafe things happened? Sorry, am I missing something here? Is their some kind of bizarro logic I need to comprehend, before I can understand why you're crying about low/null sec's lack of safety, when you knew it to be unsafe in the first place?



Sums it up nicely.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.07.11 07:37:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Mag''s on 11/07/2011 07:37:52
Originally by: Miang Hawaa
Originally by: Mag's
Originally by: Miang Hawaa
Because covops don't exist.
To be understood, you should at least make a coherent post that makes sense. Then people will understand what you are talking about.

You may as well have just replied "Purple Monkey Socks" tbh.


When even simple sarcasm flies over your head, I have to wonder how you managed to even get the game installed. Stay in school, kid.
For sarcasm to work, it needs to be a sharply focused ironic retort. You simply added words pertaining to the topic without any focus placed upon it.

Do you even have an argument, or are you now only going to show how poorly you use the English language?

Bo Tosh
Posted - 2011.07.11 07:51:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Toovhon
Maybe you wouldn't be afraid of 'AFK cloakies' if you were not AFKing in your space. Employ a combat air patrol while you mine. Have a player constantly watching the overview and scanning as you go about your business. Swap players in and out of this as the tedium eventually leads to lapses in concentration. Have your own cloaked ships standing by nearby so a cloaked attacker never knows exactly what he faces. Etc, etc.

My point being there are ways to considerably reduce the risk you face. Having to do these things is the price you pay for being inside unsecured space. Adapt or die.


This.

Its not a hard thing to do and if your corp or alliance isn't organized enough to have this sort of system running I suggest you find another. AFK cloaking is not a major problem and has the beneficial side effect of keeping bots out of action which I feel more than makes up for any minor annoyance it may cause those of a more fragile disposition.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.07.11 07:55:00 - [54]
 

Re: B-flat's answer (suitable for wind instruments and generates a Soundwave .. get it?!? Very Happy):
I'd like for the safety net to lose quite a few strings as well, but for all 'sides' as the state of unsafe for one easily translates into safe for another (most cases).

- Make cloaks probeable (see prev. post).
- Remove local in player sovereign space (NPC null should be excluded to keep the allegedly superior PvP environment it has)
- Tweak scanner mechanics to avoid carpal tunnel brought on by paranoid scan-spam.
- Allow owner greater control over local (ex. non-blues always show) by sacrificing other tactical tools like jammers/bridges.
- Etc.

Eperor
Posted - 2011.07.11 08:13:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Lakuma
Quote:
When even simple sarcasm flies over your head, I have to wonder how you managed to even get the game installed. Stay in school, kid.


I cannot help but notice you only respond to the insults and trolls in this thread, not those constructively arguing why afk cloaking isn't a problem. If you want to be taken seriously, start by responding to your actual opposition. By avoiding the valid points made and simply insulting the insulters, your proving yourself only as a troll.

Explain how this is different from WH space where you can't see them at all. Also explain why having friends, d-scan for probes, and the inherent rule of "Don't fly what you can't afford to lose" isn't enough for handling afk cloakers, be they one or several?


WH space difrence:
1. trafic not so big and not posible big one cov ops cantt do a ****, suport gang can do a so Afk clouckers are not there to sit on ader ppl nerfs.
2. IN WH space not posible cyno in reinforcments form ader systems so ussles to afk scouting and wait for easy target and posible protect your self from small gangs with boddys.

so thos 2 difrences its verry big between Wh space and usual 0.0 space if you wish remove local from game than you need td remove gates to and remove cov ops cynos to.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2011.07.11 10:33:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Miang Hawaa

This is the first counter argument in this thread that actually makes some sense. The difference, however, is that the 'blues' in the system have sovereignty. They are there because it is the space they've earned.


Ownership of a system in Eve is determined by the barrels of your guns, not meaningless words in the corner of your screen. The system belongs to the people in space, not the ones cowering in station.

If you want to use their system's resources, I suggest that you mail one of them for a tenancy agreement.

Jon Helldrunk
Posted - 2011.07.11 11:13:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Miang Hawaa
Quote:
What blatant exploit? I see no blatant exploit.


It is tragic that I have to spell this out for you.

An enemy's presence in a system causes numerous problems for locals. In general, people will not do anything outside sit in a pvp fleet when neutrals or reds, even just one, is present in a system. This means no isk generating of any kind, including mining and ratting without significant risk. Complexes are out of the question for fear that the enemy happens to have probing capabilities. Even well tanked ships are potentially at risk because we don't know if the enemy has a cyno.

So their mere presence can halt isk production in a system. Here comes the exploit: they can have this major tactical ability without even being near their computer. Just leaving your character logged in and cloaked while you're at work is exploitation of game mechanics when it can so drastically affect so many people.


Quote:
I see no problem here but your inability to adapt.


Explain what counter measures you can employ against this.



turn off local chat.

Biomass MeNOW
Posted - 2011.07.11 11:28:00 - [58]
 

It's been said and said again... there needs to be one class of ship, a frigate, with negligible combat capacity, with just one ability: Scanning down things that are cloaked.

It won't be able to warp directly to them, just 'in their vicinity', and will have to continue it's snooping anti-cloak-warfare to detect the ship's sig, then approach it, decloak it, and do whatever it needs to do.
It needs to have the ability to overtake a cloaked ship at speed while it, itself, is cloaked (it cannot scan 'uncloaked' except for uncloaked things). Once it is within decloak range both ships are exposed, and a covert ship may be able to then destroy it.

An AFK cloaked ship will be easy prey, and will rid the system of the metagaming tards who delight in disrupting all activity while they're at work, asleep, or otherwise screwing off elsewhere.
An active pilot will usually be warping around, scoping out juicy targets, or at the very least alert enough to respond when they're decloaked. Eve wants active pilots, not AFK macros (and AFK cloaking is the same as Macro activity, IMO).


foksieloy
Minmatar
Rockets ponies and rainbows
Posted - 2011.07.11 12:19:00 - [59]
 

5/10, average troll.

Ya Huei
Imperial Collective
Posted - 2011.07.11 12:25:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: prooon
yumyum, delicious tears!


Exactly what i was thinking.


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