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Ab'Synth
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:55:00 - [271]
 

i vote NO, not being able to cloak and afk ties me down to the game and makes me its b*tch. i shouldnt be forced to go find a station everytime i want/need to go afk. and personally, your not even offering anything, your just whining.

Tetragammatron Prime
Posted - 2011.08.31 18:40:00 - [272]
 

remove local
nerf covert ops cloak

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.08.31 22:38:00 - [273]
 

Originally by: Tetragammatron Prime
remove local
nerf covert ops cloak
This actually a valid point. If there is no local, there has to be a ways to detect presence of cloaked ships in a wide area - not their specific location, just enough to know something is there. Basically same as local but without the names.

It wouldn't be good to have completely invisible and undetectable players roaming around.

Dont Tasemebro
Posted - 2011.08.31 23:14:00 - [274]
 

Everyone keeps mentioning risk - but this risk never seems to fall on the cloaker, always on the ratter. Give us a sovereignty structure that allows us to project a single, system-wide instantaneous pulse once per day that will decloak any and all ships in the system. Give it significant fuel costs so that the sov holders have to decide whether it's worth using - maybe the cloaker is in a Panther, maybe he's in a Heron. Make it require strategic sov level 4 or 5. Now the sov-holder and the cloaker both share equal risks.

If you are at your keyboard and playing the game when this pulse happens, you can just recloak and the sov holder just wasted a cooldown and some fuel. You now have 24 hours to afk cloak till your heart's content. You can even use cloaked alts to trick the sov-holder into using their cooldown on a cloaked T1/rookie frig, wasting a significant amount of fuel and leaving their ratting system open to cloaky predation for another 24 hours.

I don't think this is unreasonable. This only affects a small functionality of the cloak. It's still a bathroom break when you're ratting in low-sec. It's still the end-all of reconnaissance, scouting and hot-dropping. What it wouldn't be is complete immunity to probing when you decide to take a nap while leaving your ship in hostile territory.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.09.01 18:32:00 - [275]
 

Originally by: Ephemeron
Originally by: Tetragammatron Prime
remove local
nerf covert ops cloak
This actually a valid point. If there is no local, there has to be a ways to detect presence of cloaked ships in a wide area - not their specific location, just enough to know something is there. Basically same as local but without the names.

It wouldn't be good to have completely invisible and undetectable players roaming around.


Ever been in a wormhole? You should try it, then you'd realize how weak you sound right now.

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.09.01 20:57:00 - [276]
 

Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Ephemeron
Originally by: Tetragammatron Prime
remove local
nerf covert ops cloak
This actually a valid point. If there is no local, there has to be a ways to detect presence of cloaked ships in a wide area - not their specific location, just enough to know something is there. Basically same as local but without the names.

It wouldn't be good to have completely invisible and undetectable players roaming around.


Ever been in a wormhole? You should try it, then you'd realize how weak you sound right now.
I have been there and I don't believe that way it works now is good game design.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.09.02 11:58:00 - [277]
 

Originally by: Ephemeron
I have been there and I don't believe that way it works now is good game design.


Well, your beliefs fail to trump my reality. It's fine as is in wormholes. You don't need to know if there's a cloaked person in your hole. You simply need to assume there is and act accordingly. And no, that doesn't mean curl up in your pos shield and whimper. It means grow a pair, tank your ship a little (haulers especially), and go about your business in an alert manner.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2011.09.02 12:22:00 - [278]
 

Originally by: Ephemeron
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Ephemeron
Originally by: Tetragammatron Prime
remove local
nerf covert ops cloak
This actually a valid point. If there is no local, there has to be a ways to detect presence of cloaked ships in a wide area - not their specific location, just enough to know something is there. Basically same as local but without the names.

It wouldn't be good to have completely invisible and undetectable players roaming around.


Ever been in a wormhole? You should try it, then you'd realize how weak you sound right now.
I have been there and I don't believe that way it works now is good game design.


It works fine. It forces people to take responsibility for their own safety, rather than offloading it to some infallible intel system.

Frankly, if cloaked ships are detectable in WHs, then before doing leaving POS every sane person would have scanned for cloak sigs and hence know what was going on in their system. It would be just the same as current broken nullsec, complete with AFK cloakers. We don't need another region of space as stupid and easy as nullsec.

Vertisce Soritenshi
SHADOW WARD
Tragedy.
Posted - 2011.09.02 13:18:00 - [279]
 

Edited by: Vertisce Soritenshi on 02/09/2011 13:19:02
Edited by: Vertisce Soritenshi on 02/09/2011 13:18:34
Originally by: Ab'Synth
i vote NO, not being able to cloak and afk ties me down to the game and makes me its b*tch. i shouldnt be forced to go find a station everytime i want/need to go afk. and personally, your not even offering anything, your just whining.


Actually, you're the one who is whining. Yes you should have to find a station or someplace safe if you are going to go AFK. You're just trying to make an excuse. If you go AFK for more than 10 or 15 minutes then you should be logged out. Most people with even limited intelligence know that if you aren't in a station system then you dock up or go to a POS when you go AFK unless you can cloak. You are just trying to defend your ability to cloak up and go AFK all day long in an enemy system so you can be a **** with no risk or consequence.

foksieloy
Minmatar
Rockets ponies and rainbows
Posted - 2011.09.02 13:28:00 - [280]
 

Originally by: Vertisce Soritenshi
QQ


You are just trying to defend your inability to have balls so you can bot ISK with no risk or consequence.

Vertisce Soritenshi
SHADOW WARD
Tragedy.
Posted - 2011.09.02 13:35:00 - [281]
 

Originally by: foksieloy
Originally by: Vertisce Soritenshi
QQ


You are just trying to defend your inability to have balls so you can bot ISK with no risk or consequence.


Yes because putting in an AFK timeout will stop all the botters. Idiot. Even limiting cloaks wouldn't stop botters.

Grow a brain before you accuse people of being botters.

foksieloy
Minmatar
Rockets ponies and rainbows
Posted - 2011.09.02 14:10:00 - [282]
 

Originally by: Vertisce Soritenshi
Grow a brain before you accuse people of being botters.


You desire to play the game without having to use your brain. You are the equivalent of a bot.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.09.02 14:15:00 - [283]
 

Originally by: Vertisce Soritenshi

Yes because putting in an AFK timeout will stop all the botters. Idiot. Even limiting cloaks wouldn't stop botters.

Grow a brain before you accuse people of being botters.


A lot of bots will dock up and stay docked if there's a neutral in system... this is the power an afk cloaker can have at controlling botting to a degree. If the botter then sets the cloaker to blue, it opens the cloaker to being able to take out the bot's ships.

Limiting cloaks would have the effect of making life easier for the botters... they wouldn't have to spend as much time docked and could bot more iskies faster.

Vertisce Soritenshi
SHADOW WARD
Tragedy.
Posted - 2011.09.02 18:44:00 - [284]
 

Originally by: foksieloy
Originally by: Vertisce Soritenshi
Grow a brain before you accuse people of being botters.


You desire to play the game without having to use your brain. You are the equivalent of a bot.


Thanks for proving my point.

Back on topic.

Yes I am aware that bots dock up or POS up when a neut/red is in system. But AFK cloakers don't target bot systems for the hell of it. Even then the bots usually just change systems for a while. Either way I doubt a change to AFK mechanics will effect bots at all.

Sinikka Huiputti
Posted - 2011.09.03 19:14:00 - [285]
 

Edited by: Sinikka Huiputti on 03/09/2011 19:18:23
i think i've already maybe posted this but here it comes anyway since im bored and sitting in complete safety in hi sec

1. cloaking guy has to travel into system somehow first, people can shoot him while doing it
2. once cloaker has traveled n jumps in 0.0 space without jump bridges through n number of gatecamp he probably wants to take a small break aka go afk. Note this is most important part. it's pretty much way too much trouble to logoff login just to take a smoke break. and no you can't just go and make 30 jumps to nearest station just to afk.
3. once cloaker has done some stuff he will run out of ammo, nanite paste etc. stuff carebear cannot even think about he needs to go back to npc space to dock up and get more. again he has to go through n number of gatecamps whatever without jump bridges.
4. while doing cloaking stuff cloaker obviously cannot rat, trade in jita, do level 4's, do incursions etc.

so yeah, cloaking takes much more effort and risk than undocking from alliance outpost and warping to nearest asteroid belt. also uncloaking and actually shooting some ratter in big 0.0 blob alliance is more risky than undocking and warping to anomaly while 1 guy cloaked in system since you can just have your 5000 buddies cynoed in.



Rina Asanari
Posted - 2011.09.05 06:09:00 - [286]
 

Whatever. The line "Everything is risky, no one should feel safe" is something AFK cloakers use ad nauseam. Using their own words, even they shouldn't feel safe enough to drop in a ship, cloak and be gone for the next 23.5 hours.

Thing is, a cloaker which doesn't seem to do anything might not be AFK at all, but busily logging the activity in the system. If he's doing it at all himself and haven't set up a bot to do such a thing.

foksieloy
Minmatar
Rockets ponies and rainbows
Posted - 2011.09.05 06:39:00 - [287]
 

Originally by: Vertisce Soritenshi
Thanks for proving my point.


Thanks for proving mine. Bot.

Kameri Velith
Minmatar
Wabbit Fabbit Industries
Beacon Light Alliance
Posted - 2011.09.05 09:01:00 - [288]
 

Edited by: Kameri Velith on 05/09/2011 09:47:03
First I am going to apologize, I only made it 5 pages before my eyes started bleeding and my brain cried for a little reason to be heard. So if my points have been addressed I am sorry. Second, I am not going to cite anyone specific as I am not trying to point fingers. So on to my points.

"Disrupted Productivity": This is bull****, the only person costing your supposed productivity is your own response, NOT the afker. YOU are choosing to be disrupted by his presence. YOU are failing to do your own intel gathering. YOU are afraid he might spot a cyno or appear suddenly in a stealth bomber. Does he have a record of flying SB? Does his corp/alliance have a record of cyno warfare? Do you even know?! YOU are being reactionary in a proactive game.

Fraps/Screen Reader/ETC: Yes, these tools can be used to gain an unfair advantage (by that I mean any advantage gained while not actively playing the game) and should likely fall under the category of botting HOWEVER they are purely passive and cant detected or enforced and could just as easily be performed by someone that has a half dozen monitors and adhd. The intel they gather and the "method" (sitting cloaked off the gate(s)) are perfectly legit and shouldnt be nerfed because some people are going to cheat.

"OMGS NERF CLOAKS!!1!": stfu, please. nerfing long term and long distance recon AND/OR making them annoying (randomly clicking "yes i want to stay cloaked" as an example) is a REALLY dumb and bad idea. Intel is central to any war, read the art of war if you dont believe me, and making the job of your intel gathering agents harder is just about the worst thing you could do.

"Nerf Local in 0.0": In my understanding of the game mechanics the local channel is loosely tied to the stargates, hence why WHs don't have an accurate one. The only reasonable change I could see to local in nulsec would be to remove/delay the appearance of people who arrived in system by non-stargate means. However that would strengthen cloaks so no one hear whats to hear that idea =P

I believe I have covered all of the reverent points however I can edit if after another eye bleeding 5 pages of trolling, stupidity, whining and ignorance I find another or two.

Two responses to the next 5 pages, I would totally support an anti-cloak class of ship, not only does it resolve the afk cloaker "problem" but it would make for fantastic games of cat and mouse, especially if all it told you was there was a cloaked ship not WHAT cloaked ship. I would also support an AFK flag, not for anything in this thread but because im sick of asking "hey sonso, you there?" =P

jacob2471
Posted - 2011.09.05 16:46:00 - [289]
 

You TEST guys starting to feel the pressure?

Pay us our system ransom, 500m per system and we'll leave. Will me more effetive than starting an assembly hall thread over it.

Georgik Sojik
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2011.09.05 17:17:00 - [290]
 

Hello TEST and all the other Mega Alliances that hire just anybody.

As a former IAC member who felt just the same way back in 2007 when they rolled out covert ops ships, I too share this hatred for exploiters. Why can't people AFK mine / belt rat in 110% safety. This blatant exploit has gone far enough. Its not like isk generation has any direct relation to tactical advantages. Purchasing power means nothing, and if people can't mine/rat constantly, how will their alliance ever hold space. Come on people, think about this. As Miang Hawaa points out, anything that is possible while AFK'd is an exploit.

When I jump into 6VDT and I see 110 in local and all I have is a cheetah, I'm pretty scared, but then I realize that there are only about 5 or 6 people active, and everyone else is just AFK in the station or in their POS. This false sense of numbers in local is very misleading. If you're not actively clicking something you should be logged out and then your account banned for 23.5 hours. That will teach you to AFK, right?

This blatant exploit has gone on long enough. Players should not be allowed to have a tactical advantage while AFK at any point. False Local numbers has been a problem for a very long time. Everyone knows its a problem. Why hasn't anything been done?

What is being done about this frustrating problem?

Straight Smuggin
Posted - 2011.09.06 00:07:00 - [291]
 

Originally by: Georgik Sojik
Hello TEST and all the other Mega Alliances that hire just anybody.

As a former IAC member who felt just the same way back in 2007 when they rolled out covert ops ships, I too share this hatred for exploiters. Why can't people AFK mine / belt rat in 110% safety. This blatant exploit has gone far enough. Its not like isk generation has any direct relation to tactical advantages. Purchasing power means nothing, and if people can't mine/rat constantly, how will their alliance ever hold space. Come on people, think about this. As Miang Hawaa points out, anything that is possible while AFK'd is an exploit.

When I jump into 6VDT and I see 110 in local and all I have is a cheetah, I'm pretty scared, but then I realize that there are only about 5 or 6 people active, and everyone else is just AFK in the station or in their POS. This false sense of numbers in local is very misleading. If you're not actively clicking something you should be logged out and then your account banned for 23.5 hours. That will teach you to AFK, right?

This blatant exploit has gone on long enough. Players should not be allowed to have a tactical advantage while AFK at any point. False Local numbers has been a problem for a very long time. Everyone knows its a problem. Why hasn't anything been done?

What is being done about this frustrating problem?


Good post Georgik

Some of the carebear suggestions in this thread are fkn hillarious. System wide de-cloak? Afk tag? hahahahhaa, just learn to always be ready for a fight. if you cant defend the systems youre in at all times, maybe you should not blob supercaps to hold 150 systems that you dont have the numbers to defend all at once?

In short, GROW A PAIR

Rina Asanari
Posted - 2011.09.06 07:56:00 - [292]
 

Originally by: Straight Smuggin
Some of the carebear suggestions in this thread are fkn hillarious. System wide de-cloak? Afk tag? hahahahhaa, just learn to always be ready for a fight. if you cant defend the systems youre in at all times, maybe you should not blob supercaps to hold 150 systems that you dont have the numbers to defend all at once?

In short, GROW A PAIR


*yawn* I think plopping down a cloaker and just sitting there is not quite a sign of big balls, either. But enough of that talk about someone's miniscule (or nonexistent) gonads. Some people really have to heed their own words they're spouting, as stated in my previous posting.

foksieloy
Minmatar
Rockets ponies and rainbows
Posted - 2011.09.06 08:13:00 - [293]
 

AFK cloakers have nothing to do with balls. They are not there. They are neutral.

It is the carebears who are all about lack of balls.

Honestly, if this topic was renamed to: "PLEASE DEAR CCP I AM A LITTLE GIRL AND EVEIL PERSON IN LOCAL IS MAKING ME PEE MYSELF HALP!!!" I would support it.

Eperor
Posted - 2011.09.06 08:59:00 - [294]
 

Originally by: Sinikka Huiputti
Edited by: Sinikka Huiputti on 03/09/2011 19:18:23
i think i've already maybe posted this but here it comes anyway since im bored and sitting in complete safety in hi sec

1. cloaking guy has to travel into system somehow first, people can shoot him while doing it
2. once cloaker has traveled n jumps in 0.0 space without jump bridges through n number of gatecamp he probably wants to take a small break aka go afk. Note this is most important part. it's pretty much way too much trouble to logoff login just to take a smoke break. and no you can't just go and make 30 jumps to nearest station just to afk.
3. once cloaker has done some stuff he will run out of ammo, nanite paste etc. stuff carebear cannot even think about he needs to go back to npc space to dock up and get more. again he has to go through n number of gatecamps whatever without jump bridges.
4. while doing cloaking stuff cloaker obviously cannot rat, trade in jita, do level 4's, do incursions etc.

so yeah, cloaking takes much more effort and risk than undocking from alliance outpost and warping to nearest asteroid belt. also uncloaking and actually shooting some ratter in big 0.0 blob alliance is more risky than undocking and warping to anomaly while 1 guy cloaked in system since you can just have your 5000 buddies cynoed in.





For thos guys no propblem problem are thjops hoo stay afk days, weeks and months. I sa personaly in sytem 1 guy for 3 month not loging out i considering and was sutre that he is bot, for geting intels, he loged every time befor even i got online i specialy tried get online faster then him. So need to egt rid of thos bots to.

Dont Tasemebro
Posted - 2011.09.06 09:07:00 - [295]
 

Originally by: Straight Smuggin


Good post Georgik

Some of the carebear suggestions in this thread are fkn hillarious. System wide de-cloak? Afk tag? hahahahhaa, just learn to always be ready for a fight. if you cant defend the systems youre in at all times, maybe you should not blob supercaps to hold 150 systems that you dont have the numbers to defend all at once?

In short, GROW A PAIR


yaya, always be ready to fight, right? unless you are cloaked in a safespot, because then you are 100% invulnerable and unprobable and don't need to be ready for a fight, you can go afk until your Mom turns your PC off because you're running up her electricity bill.

Georgik Sojik
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2011.09.06 20:03:00 - [296]
 

Originally by: Dont Tasemebro

yaya, always be ready to fight, right? unless you are cloaked in a safespot, because then you are 100% invulnerable and unprobable and don't need to be ready for a fight, you can go afk until your Mom turns your PC off because you're running up her electricity bill.


Hey, hi, hello. You seem to be one of the disillusioned masses.

I think we can both agree that your alliance is AFKing in your space just as much as anyone else. I don't usually play this game, I just log in hit a single button and inevitably wait for my mom to pull out the plug when she vacuums, but how is being cloaked in your space different then your 12,000 member alliance hiding their ships inside the 12 outposts, and/or the countless POSes that you have in cyno-jammed systems? I do remember seeing the words "Invulnerable" on many of those sov structures. If invulnerability is an exploit, well then I guess your sov structures need to come down.

But I think we're really getting to the heart of this problem. You were given all this space but not really told what that meant. So when someone comes in uninvited, you yell to CONDI for help. But of course, the Goons are busy actually being proactive in their space, so they won't come save you from the one cloaked probing alt. Perhaps, with time, your keepers can come down and teach you how to hold space. I mean, honestly, Fountain is just Goon renter space anyway. But I'm happy that you got your name up on the map, I'm sure your internet spaceship friends thing that's really something. That strong rallying cry of "We're our own person, and don't need Mommy CONDI...for most things."

Don't expect to have 6VDT in December. Winter is coming. Cool


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