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Zagaro
Posted - 2011.07.09 21:53:00 - [1]
 

I find it very frustrating that all I can do is watch the huge timers on my skills slowly count down the months it takes for them to complete. Why is there no way to hasten skill gain by actually doing things? If I mine, shouldn't I get better at mining? If I fire my hybrid turrets at things, shouldn't I get better at firing them?

Bonuses to training should be applied to you skills as you use them... this would really help out new players catch up to those that have been playing for years.

Llambda
Space Llama Industries
Posted - 2011.07.09 22:28:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Zagaro
I find it very frustrating that all I can do is watch the huge timers on my skills slowly count down the months it takes for them to complete. Why is there no way to hasten skill gain by actually doing things? If I mine, shouldn't I get better at mining? If I fire my hybrid turrets at things, shouldn't I get better at firing them?

Bonuses to training should be applied to you skills as you use them... this would really help out new players catch up to those that have been playing for years.


What a unique and novel idea. Can't believe it hasn't been thought of before.Rolling Eyes

Thur Barbek
Posted - 2011.07.09 22:34:00 - [3]
 

Because then people will afk with mods on or afk while shooting at an indestructible object... Bot usage would also increase.

Drykor
Minmatar
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2011.07.09 22:35:00 - [4]
 

A few problems here. Many people joined Eve exactly because of the skillsystem that is in place, you don't have to grind for hours daily to become better at stuff. Another thing that this would introduce is bots, as you may already know bot mining and 0.0 ratting is already rampant, but with this change you would almost have to use a bot to keep up in skilltraining with 23/7 botters. This is what happened to many many games where you can grind a certain action to become better at it.

So, no thanks. Nothing wrong with the skill system in Eve.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.07.09 22:54:00 - [5]
 

Because it proved bad for the game when they tested it — it only created moronic behaviour that distracted people from actually playing the game.

If you absolutely feel the need to grind, you can already do so and gain some benefit from it. By doing things you learn how to do them, which is far more important for being effective than your character knowing how to do them.

Moreover, it would be next to impossible to create such a system to match all the various skills in EVE. How would you improve the Weapon Upgrades skill? How would you gain SP in Infomorph Psychology? How would you actively train Thermic Armor Compensation?

And finally, "catching up" is not really an applicable concept in EVE due to its very shallow level system — in any meaningful sense, it's already trivially easy to catch up. Also, since this kind of scheme would only really affect specialisation, it would actually benefit older players far more than newer ones, since old players no longer have any need to get the broad fundamentals done and can instead spend time doing these kinds of specialisation grinds.

Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
Posted - 2011.07.09 23:18:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Because it proved bad for the game when they tested it — it only created moronic behaviour that distracted people from actually playing the game.


That's really as much answer as anyone should need. But you're a very generous person for continuing to all the secondary reasons why we can't grind skills.

Lledrith
Minmatar
Ex Caminus
Posted - 2011.07.10 03:25:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Zhilia Mann
why we can't grind skills.

Originally by: Thur Barbek
Bot usage would also increase.


i think he pretty much responded your question. you need the feeling of grinding there is mining for a reason is simple is needed and everyone wants someone else doing it for them.


VKhaun Vex
Posted - 2011.07.10 03:43:00 - [8]
 

If you just 'wait' for the skills to fly a capital ship like a titan you'll just find yourself a noob in a noobie starting station, in high sec space were titans can't go, with no friends and no capital ship.

You still need to get out there at frig level and get a few available lv2 missions agents BEFORE you can fly the cruiser you want to or you won't have any need for it. You still need to make friends and find a corp BEFORE you have a stack of ships to go get blown up in. Mine enough resources or earn enough ISK to make/buy the things you want BEFORE you can use them.

It's a time trial way before it's a time requirement.

lordlulzs
Posted - 2011.07.11 05:03:00 - [9]
 

Hrmmm, youd think a smart company would implement and use both skill systems, to please the most of amount of people, why not let the player individually chose which system they want to use.

Oh wait, nvm, ccp is to late, theres already companies fixing their mistake.

Also, I forgot, ccp wants to be in the special Olympics of differences.

Drykor
Minmatar
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2011.07.11 17:40:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: lordlulzs
Hrmmm, youd think a smart company would implement and use both skill systems, to please the most of amount of people, why not let the player individually chose which system they want to use.

Oh wait, nvm, ccp is to late, theres already companies fixing their mistake.

Also, I forgot, ccp wants to be in the special Olympics of differences.


Hrmmm, you'd think a smart person would just quit the game if he was so butthurt about the company developing it that he feels he needs to troll the Skill Discussions forum. And in fact a smart person probably would.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.07.14 14:53:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Zagaro
I find it very frustrating that all I can do is watch the huge timers on my skills slowly count down the months it takes for them to complete. Why is there no way to hasten skill gain by actually doing things? If I mine, shouldn't I get better at mining? If I fire my hybrid turrets at things, shouldn't I get better at firing them?

Bonuses to training should be applied to you skills as you use them... this would really help out new players catch up to those that have been playing for years.


It wouldn't "help new players" at all, because older players would have been doing this the whole time and would do it at least as much.

That to the side, one of the best things about EVE is that there is no level grinding. Do you really enjoy grinding for xp so much that you insist on doing it in one of the few games that doesn't force you to?

Riedle
Minmatar
Paradox Collective
Posted - 2011.07.14 23:18:00 - [12]
 

You didn't really think this through did you?

Jacob Holland
Gallente
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
Posted - 2011.07.15 08:04:00 - [13]
 

There are game balance and anti-grind reasons.
You could also consider that it takes months, if not years to train someone to command RL naval vessels and certainly years for them to become really proficient at it. We capsuleers however can download skills which would take years upon years of experience to acquire in weeks.
Therefore the reason we don't gain from use (or grind) can be seen simply as the effect of experience being absolutely insignificant compared to the download speeds of our brains. An SP every day is nothing to 2700 SPs per hour.

Darryl Ward
Posted - 2011.07.15 15:01:00 - [14]
 

There are neural remaps and implants to increase attributes and decrease training speed. Other than that, this is it. CCP doesn't want Eve to be a PVE only game where people just grind into shiny boats. It takes some patience, but there is usually always something cool to roam around with at your current skill level.

CCP doesn't want it to be easy to catch up to Titan pilots, and the ship balances with size make it so that every level of pilot can find some use for themselves in mixed composition fleets.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2011.07.15 15:07:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 15/07/2011 15:07:10
This used to be in the game when it first shipped (EDIT or was it beta?). It was a total complete disaster and had to be removed. Who else remembers the days of every time you use an Afterburner you got afterburner SP?


lordlulzs
Posted - 2011.07.16 06:01:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Drykor
Originally by: lordlulzs
Hrmmm, youd think a smart company would implement and use both skill systems, to please the most of amount of people, why not let the player individually chose which system they want to use.

Oh wait, nvm, ccp is to late, theres already companies fixing their mistake.

Also, I forgot, ccp wants to be in the special Olympics of differences.


Hrmmm, you'd think a smart person would just quit the game if he was so butthurt about the company developing it that he feels he needs to troll the Skill Discussions forum. And in fact a smart person probably would.


smart people don't make assumptions about why others still play a game. :P

I still play eve in the slime hope that ccp will eventually realize their mistakes and make the game more popular.

But since I realized they are too arrogant for that to happen, I don't actually play eve anymore, I just pay for the trolling and the hilarious attempts that people like you make to counter troll.

Keep trying though, you may come up with something good next time? Wink

Now your supposed to say something like, Im the one trolling you or that im actually the one that got trolled right?


Franny
Mentis Seorsum
Posted - 2011.07.16 07:15:00 - [17]
 

it would be to easy to

1) hop in BS of choice
2) set 1 of each of as many weapons as you can
3) target alt in cap stable over tanked ship(hell target eachother and do both at the same time) or a GSC and remote rep it
4) fire till out of ammo
5) repeat with T2 weapons instead of T1
6) ???
7) you can now use all T2 weapons ingame

now do that with every size weapon/shield tank/armor tank/ship hull/useable module you can think of

Dr Caymus
Gallente
Applied Technologies Inc
Agents of Fortune
Posted - 2011.07.16 22:36:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
Edited by: Pottsey on 15/07/2011 15:07:10
This used to be in the game when it first shipped (EDIT or was it beta?). It was a total complete disaster and had to be removed. Who else remembers the days of every time you use an Afterburner you got afterburner SP?


It was in the game for the first couple of months after launch. The feature awarded you a small amount of extra skill points on top of those earned through real time. And, as the concerns above reflect, it was exploited, so it was removed. People used all of the above-mentioned means and more to automate the process of earning extra skill points while they were off doing something else. It was a bad idea; it went totally against the grain of one of the original, fundamental game design concepts.

Dr Caymus
-=ATI=-

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.07.17 10:01:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Othran on 17/07/2011 10:03:08
Originally by: Dr Caymus
Originally by: Pottsey
Edited by: Pottsey on 15/07/2011 15:07:10
This used to be in the game when it first shipped (EDIT or was it beta?). It was a total complete disaster and had to be removed. Who else remembers the days of every time you use an Afterburner you got afterburner SP?


It was in the game for the first couple of months after launch. The feature awarded you a small amount of extra skill points on top of those earned through real time. And, as the concerns above reflect, it was exploited, so it was removed. People used all of the above-mentioned means and more to automate the process of earning extra skill points while they were off doing something else. It was a bad idea; it went totally against the grain of one of the original, fundamental game design concepts.

Dr Caymus
-=ATI=-



People should have got banned for running macros. They didn't. Edit - IIRC you only got SPs for manually activating certain modules, not for auto-repeat, so for exploiting it required the user to run a macro. LOTS did.

It was up there with the very worst design decisions CCP ever made - like the T2 lottery and insurance.

If it ever returns then we'll KNOW CCP are going bust.

Drahcir Nasom
Independent Manufacturers
Independent Manufacturers Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.21 21:53:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Dr Caymus
Originally by: Pottsey
Edited by: Pottsey on 15/07/2011 15:07:10
This used to be in the game when it first shipped (EDIT or was it beta?). It was a total complete disaster and had to be removed. Who else remembers the days of every time you use an Afterburner you got afterburner SP?


It was in the game for the first couple of months after launch. The feature awarded you a small amount of extra skill points on top of those earned through real time. And, as the concerns above reflect, it was exploited, so it was removed. People used all of the above-mentioned means and more to automate the process of earning extra skill points while they were off doing something else. It was a bad idea; it went totally against the grain of one of the original, fundamental game design concepts.

Dr Caymus
-=ATI=-



Actually, it was more than a couple of months, according to my SP spreadsheet it lasted from launch until 17 December 2003 which was nearly 7.5 months (226 days). I actually started recording my SP for every skill in this spreadsheet at every DT I was logged on (I was unemployed back then, so that was pretty much every day) specifically to track the SP I was getting from doing things in game rather than through the normal skill training system.

The problem with the system as everyone else has said, it got exploited, jump in a Domi and go kill a few rats would earn you a few hundred SP in Gallente BS and a few hundred SP for the relevant weapon type you were using. Then jump in a Gal frigate and earn a few SP for that, repeat with every ship you could fly and you'd earn SP for all of the different ship skills. Repeat with every weapon you could use and you'd earn SP for all of them as well.

The big problem was it wasn't just "a few" SP. Early in the game, I spent a few weeks flying round collecting up loads of stuff that had been purchased at literally hundreds of stations in about 8 empire regions (there were no skill based limits on buy orders back then), and I'd optimize the hold size and speed of my hauler using cargo expanders, nanofibers and overdrives. Because I was swapping expanders, nanos and ODs almost every station, it only took 155 days from starting the game to getting Hull Upgrades to lvl 5, that's an average of about 3300SP per day, I never once formally "trained" Hull Upgrades, it all came from doing stuff, and I actually got it above the 512K needed for lvl 5, I have 512017SP in Hull Upgrades.

Similarly, the first 179K of Mechanic skill was done the same way. I 'trained' Gallente BS to lvl 1, and then got it almost to lvl 3 (from 2000 to 59458) just by using a Domi and a Mega for ratting. Since Pottsey mentioned it, I had a look at Afterburner skill, I took that from 8000 SP to 163382 just by using afterburners. Just between those 4 skills (Hull Upgrades, Mechanic, Gall BS & Afterburner), that was 903857SP "earned" in the 224 days between me starting the game and earned SP being removed, or 4035SP per day.

Drahcir

lordlulzs
Posted - 2011.07.22 02:30:00 - [21]
 

Wow you mean people actually got rewarded for playing?!

Gee golly one can only wonder how much more action, drama and lulzs everyone would be having if eve were more popular..

Abdiel Kavash
Caldari
Paladin Order
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2011.07.22 10:46:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: lordlulzs
Wow you mean people actually got rewarded for playing?!


No, not for playing. For sitting on a station and spinning afterburners 23/7.

Zagaro
Posted - 2011.07.25 03:00:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Zagaro
I find it very frustrating that all I can do is watch the huge timers on my skills slowly count down the months it takes for them to complete. Why is there no way to hasten skill gain by actually doing things? If I mine, shouldn't I get better at mining? If I fire my hybrid turrets at things, shouldn't I get better at firing them?

Bonuses to training should be applied to you skills as you use them... this would really help out new players catch up to those that have been playing for years.


It wouldn't "help new players" at all, because older players would have been doing this the whole time and would do it at least as much.

That to the side, one of the best things about EVE is that there is no level grinding. Do you really enjoy grinding for xp so much that you insist on doing it in one of the few games that doesn't force you to?


"Grinding" EXP is far more enjoyable than watching clocks slowly tick away, because you're being rewarded for actually playing the game.

If you're enjoying your time playing and getting experience, it's not grinding.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.07.25 03:12:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Zagaro
"Grinding" EXP is far more enjoyable than watching clocks slowly tick away, because you're being rewarded for actually playing the game.
No, you're not. You're being rewarded for not playing the game, but rather for doing silly and repetitive things in a veeeeery narrow set of activities.

What EVE has now is pretty much the optimal solution: you're being rewarded separate to game play so you can actually play the game and not worry about that progression.

Zagaro
Posted - 2011.07.25 05:11:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Zagaro
"Grinding" EXP is far more enjoyable than watching clocks slowly tick away, because you're being rewarded for actually playing the game.
No, you're not. You're being rewarded for not playing the game, but rather for doing silly and repetitive things in a veeeeery narrow set of activities.

What EVE has now is pretty much the optimal solution: you're being rewarded separate to game play so you can actually play the game and not worry about that progression.


How is hunting pirates, mining, or making stuff not playing the game?

Your logic is broken, you might want to get that fixed.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.07.25 06:18:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Zagaro
How is hunting pirates, mining, or making stuff not playing the game?
That's not how it will be used, as previous implementations have shown.
Moreover, your solution is incomplete, as described above.
Quote:
Your logic is broken, you might want to get that fixed.
Try reading, and you'll understand… hopefully…

Baneken
Gallente
The New Knighthood
Apocalypse Now.
Posted - 2011.07.25 11:56:00 - [27]
 

What could go wrong with "morrowind style" skill training ? Rolling Eyes

Orbit station -> (trains evasive maneuvering ...) -> hit MWD (trains high sped maneuvering) -> uses cap so trains capacitors kill while you train high speed maneuvering while you train evasive maneuvering -> have your friend do the same shoot each other with laser while perma tanking -> trains tank & weapons skills for both while training other skills as well.

And you could do the above while being afk all day long while orbiting a station / each other; well what we waiting for sounds like an awesome idea. Laughing Rolling Eyes

In other words let this thread DIE (preferably in agony and in flames).

Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
Posted - 2011.07.25 15:01:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Zagaro
"Grinding" EXP is far more enjoyable than watching clocks slowly tick away, because you're being rewarded for actually playing the game.

If you're enjoying your time playing and getting experience, it's not grinding.


It's grinding if you're forced to do stupid **** like this:

Originally by: Baneken
Orbit station -> (trains evasive maneuvering ...) -> hit MWD (trains high sped maneuvering) -> uses cap so trains capacitors kill while you train high speed maneuvering while you train evasive maneuvering -> have your friend do the same shoot each other with laser while perma tanking -> trains tank & weapons skills for both while training other skills as well.

And you could do the above while being afk all day long while orbiting a station / each other


in order to make sure you can do this:

Originally by: Tippia
actually play the game and not worry about that progression.


If you're somehow not getting that, please review the evidence again.

I personally spent a loooooooong time training skills with sub-optimal attributes (why make an Int/Will character exactly?) before they could be remapped. As a result, my main is about 20 million SP short of optimal. But given the options of (a) languishing behind forever or (b) facing the choice of setting up stupid afk schemes or falling further behind I would take (a) absolutely every single day of every single year from here until EVE closes its doors. I'm not going to bot my skill grind just to keep up with the morons who do; I'd much rather stop playing the game entirely.

FireT
Gallente
Royal Advanced Industries
Imperial Crimson Legion
Posted - 2011.07.26 19:04:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Zagaro
I find it very frustrating that all I can do is watch the huge timers on my skills slowly count down the months it takes for them to complete. Why is there no way to hasten skill gain by actually doing things? If I mine, shouldn't I get better at mining? If I fire my hybrid turrets at things, shouldn't I get better at firing them?

Bonuses to training should be applied to you skills as you use them... this would really help out new players catch up to those that have been playing for years.


This is so sad, I actually had to log in and finally comment. I read all the replies and responses. And honestly, you are a reverse genius, figure it out yourselves what that means (since I can not openly insult people here), for such a claim.

Almost every MMO has such a grinding method to sucker you into extended playing. For them that is fine, especially for people that would rather dedicate their life to an MMO than actually enjoy life.

And that right there is the sole reason why I am playing Eve, even when burned out from MMOs, the ability to take a break and actually have the character train things I will want and might need in the future while I have a bigger than normal work load, go out for fun with family and friends, or vacation, or any other real life activity.

And if Eve ever does make it a grinding game, I as most real life people that enjoy it as a relaxing game, will jump and leave. That is a simple fact. Simply because I used to play WoW and the grind was mandatory if you wished to progress due to constantly gear requirements for simple playing and survival.

Bklyn 1
Posted - 2011.07.26 23:40:00 - [30]
 

OP, there are like 50 (probably more) games that let you grind xp as opposed to 1 (afaik) that does it this way. Some people prefer this alternative. You are not one such person. That's cool, but I suggest perhaps you should play something more in line with your preferences rather than seek to remove the sole alternative available for the rest of us.


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