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blankseplocked [Proposal] Disable ship swaps at hangar while under aggro
 
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.07.13 22:32:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: Ranka Mei
Originally by: Toovhon

Also I still say it's bloody unfortunate for the unwitting Orca pilot who has some dumb or malicious corpmate aggro another player, and then dock.


And keep even further in mind that access to the Orca's ship maintenance bay is fleet-based; that's pretty broad. So, the Orca pilot may just be rendering docking services to people who aren't even in his corp. It takes only 1 jerk from a different corp, for instance, to really screw the totally innocent Orca pilot over.


This is certainly a problem with transfering the agro to the orca pilot. The pilot being attacked, also being denied the ability to dock/swap is a good comprimise.

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.14 02:32:00 - [122]
 

Edited by: Toovhon on 14/07/2011 04:25:05
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Toovhon

Be sure to return with more posts of how nasty unfair pirates killed your dumb arse over and over :-D


Be sure to let me know when your opinion not only become relevant, but are also facts.


So now anyone who points out you failed is a liar? :-D Best edit your OP then...

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.07.14 05:03:00 - [123]
 

Originally by: Toovhon

So now anyone who points out you failed is a liar? :-D Best edit your OP then...


Your reading comprehension skills are bested by a slug.

Kusanagi Kasuga
Posted - 2011.07.14 15:30:00 - [124]
 

Ultimately, you missed the real problem.
There is no 'design philosophy' that says a player must commit to a fight - otherwise ECM, WCS, and other methods of disengaging would not exist.
Nor is there an assumption that what you think you're fighting is what you see - he could just as easily have brought some friends to play (and would have if you had been able to hold tank for too long)

If you were better informed, you would have known that this is a standard ninja tactic - he wasn't stealing your loot - he wanted to kill you. You took the bait.

The only problem here is that there is no way for you to spring his trap on him, and kill the orca.
When that is fixed, life will be more interesting for ninjas and victims both.

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2011.07.14 16:44:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: Toovhon
Originally by: Bagehi
Why would you have to worry about using ECM/drones/etc if the purpose is to break the lock so you can warp? If you can warp and have to use an orca to switch ships out, you'd be doing that in a safe location where the orca will remain safe (like in a POS shield). If you've just beaten off an attacker with drones, why would you be switching out ships? Besides, Orcas usually aren't just left sitting somewhere AFK that isn't safe. Also, the Orca has to actually be in fleet, with the hangar access set for someone to interface with it in a way that could pass aggro.



Why would I worry about ECM if I want to break a lock? Huh? What are you on about? You do know what ECM mods and drones are for, right?

Why worry about transferring aggro at that point? You've hopefully broken the lock, you've warped out, safe up and wait it out if that was what you were planning to do. If you were planning to switch ships, then do it from the orca that is in the safe you just warped to, where the transfer of an aggro counter won't do anything negatively to it. Did you even read the rest of the paragraph I wrote or just the first sentence? You're started to look like a troll.

Grog Barrel
Posted - 2011.07.14 17:24:00 - [126]
 

Solution: Orca is protecting a pilot who aggro'd you knowing the situation, thus orca should become red box to you too.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Posted - 2011.07.14 21:04:00 - [127]
 


You can't board a ship that's targeted. I think its a good idea that you can't dock a ship that's targetted either..... with the exceptions of stations and outposts (o.w. station games would take on a whole new aspect!).

Docking your Faction BS into a carrier to save it from destruction is such a pansy use of the game mechanics that it really ought to be changed....


Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.15 06:33:00 - [128]
 

Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Toovhon

So now anyone who points out you failed is a liar? :-D Best edit your OP then...


Your reading comprehension skills are bested by a slug.


LOL. Wow, you are one sad little man :-D Nonetheless your original tears over your very own !@#$up remain for all to see.

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.15 06:39:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: Bagehi
Originally by: Toovhon
Originally by: Bagehi
Why would you have to worry about using ECM/drones/etc if the purpose is to break the lock so you can warp? If you can warp and have to use an orca to switch ships out, you'd be doing that in a safe location where the orca will remain safe (like in a POS shield). If you've just beaten off an attacker with drones, why would you be switching out ships? Besides, Orcas usually aren't just left sitting somewhere AFK that isn't safe. Also, the Orca has to actually be in fleet, with the hangar access set for someone to interface with it in a way that could pass aggro.



Why would I worry about ECM if I want to break a lock? Huh? What are you on about? You do know what ECM mods and drones are for, right?

Why worry about transferring aggro at that point? You've hopefully broken the lock, you've warped out, safe up and wait it out if that was what you were planning to do. If you were planning to switch ships, then do it from the orca that is in the safe you just warped to, where the transfer of an aggro counter won't do anything negatively to it. Did you even read the rest of the paragraph I wrote or just the first sentence? You're started to look like a troll.



The suggestion was made that I needn't gain aggro before docking. I said I often do need ECM mods/drones or combat drones (though if I need to bring them out, my chances are usually very slim, but !@#$ it, I'll try anything to escape :-) ) to escape. You then said "Why would you have to worry about using ECM/drones/etc if the purpose is to break the lock so you can warp?". I basically said "...".

The upshot is if you can't see why I'd sometimes need to gain aggro to get away from an attempted gank, you've obviously never had someone try to gank you.

So really - what are you on about and why are you trying to call me a troll? You're the one suggesting I never fight back, which makes no sense in many situations where I'm scrammed.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.07.15 16:25:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: Toovhon

LOL. Wow, you are one sad little man :-D Nonetheless your original tears over your very own !@#$up remain for all to see.


The amusing part is that you think I'm upset. The sad part is that you and a few others feel that anyone who makes a suggestion does so for selfish reasons. Sorry to harm your world view, but not everyone is a self centered prick like your self.

As for the issue of the thread, thanks for participating. ;)

Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.07.15 17:17:00 - [131]
 

Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Toovhon

LOL. Wow, you are one sad little man :-D Nonetheless your original tears over your very own !@#$up remain for all to see.


The amusing part is that you think I'm upset. The sad part is that you and a few others feel that anyone who makes a suggestion does so for selfish reasons. Sorry to harm your world view, but not everyone is a self centered prick like your self.

As for the issue of the thread, thanks for participating. ;)


It obviously bothered you enough to post this thread then spend 5 pages defending it.

Sounds like you're kind of upset to me.

This is a well known tactic and you made multiple errors that resulted in your death.

Let me reiterate you lost this fight through your own stupidity not because of the Orca's ship maintenance bay.

You are also quite hypocritical, The guy flipped you in a Vigil, I note that when you ran back and grabbed another ship you didn't pick up a T1 frig to give him a "fair" fight you brought back a T2 ship.

Lets break that down. You are mad because the Pirate switched into a superior ship after you switched into a superior ship.

Now lets go down your mistakes. First you engaged a a can thief, this is a mistake because the only reason people will steal from your can in a mission is to get you to aggress which means he expects to be able to win. Now do you really think a vigil stands much chance of killing a mission BS before he ran off or you blew his ship up?

No the Vigil was used to get dumbasses like yourself to engage thinking you'll get an easy kill. Any reasonably intelligent individual would know that he would be using a different ship for actual combat. You didn't which is my justification for the first sentence in this paragraph.

You're idiocy in this case is slightly mitigated by the fact that you grabbed a different (cheaper) ship to actually engage him in.

You're next mistake was not recognizing what the orca landing in the mission pocket meant. This is a very commonly used tactic which you should have known about, Even so it was an unknown variable in the situation and that change should have been enough for you to re-evaluate the situation and decide to gtfo.

You're final mistake and the one that cost you your ship is that as soon as you lost lock and he switched ships that should have been your signal to GTFO. It was going to take a couple seconds to lock and you could probably get outside of point range and warp away in that time. You were in an Interceptor so it's not like it would have taken you long to align to warp out.

As far as using the Orca's maintenance bay being a cheesy tactic, sure but it's just one more in a long list of cheesy tactics. He could just as easily warped back to a station to have his bigger ship ready when you got back from grabbing your Inty.

Face it you're just mad because he out thought you. You thought YOU would be the one to get an easy kill but instead he turned the tables on you.

But please do cry moar your tears are quite tasty.


Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.07.16 02:31:00 - [132]
 

Originally by: Skex Relbore

<more bull **** from a air bag>



Your error, along with the rest of your ilk is the assumption I am mad about loosing the fight. I encountered an imbalance, an imbalance I knew existed but had yet to experience first hand. Now that I have, I can speak to it.

The annoying thing is this all too common Eve tough guy attitude. You give me ****, I throw it right back in your face. I'm not afraid of being called a carebear or shrink in fear from stupid comments like "go back to wow", etc.

An imbalance exists, in my view it should be addressed. You need to defend the cheesy tactic by calling someone names and going after the messenger. You're full of ****, deal with it. You're just another fake tough guy sitting behind your screen.

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.16 06:45:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Toovhon

LOL. Wow, you are one sad little man :-D Nonetheless your original tears over your very own !@#$up remain for all to see.


The amusing part is that you think I'm upset. The sad part is that you and a few others feel that anyone who makes a suggestion does so for selfish reasons. Sorry to harm your world view, but not everyone is a self centered prick like your self.

As for the issue of the thread, thanks for participating. ;)


No, you're not upset, are you? :-D You've not spent five pages crying about your stupidity getting yourself killed, nor have you abused anyone and everyone who pointed out the realities of the situation.

*pats you gently on your back* There there. There there. Life is just so unfair, isn't it?

Ah dear, it's just too funny. I wonder how long you can be goaded into continuing to embarrass yourself? Oh, and don't hesitate to share your future !@#$ups :-) Someone like yourself ought to be a near endless source of amusing pratfalls in Eve *grins*

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2011.07.16 08:28:00 - [134]
 

Edited by: Omara Otawan on 16/07/2011 08:30:18

Originally by: Grog Barrel
Solution: Orca is protecting a pilot who aggro'd you knowing the situation, thus orca should become red box to you too.


Effect: Orca pilots cannot allow anyone access to their hangar apart from their own alts, since that would be just an open invitation to have your orca flagged and ganked.

Aggro transfer like that does not show in the UI. The poor bastard has no way of knowing someone can legally shoot him in hisec, or that he will not disappear after logging off in lowsec/nullsec/wspace.

Now I am all for griefing and ganking, but invisible aggro timers the victim has no chance to notice is just plain stupid.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.07.16 11:17:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Omara Otawan
....

You sure assist flags add the PvP timer for logoff, doesn't for RR as neutral logis seem to disappear just fine. Not hidden timers either as you get the flawed ticker in left hand/top.

The problem with aggro solution is that the Orca is technically "innocent" as he just happened to be there in his mining support craft with fleet members who just happened to shoot stuff Very Happy

Adding the run of the mill docking timer for all maintenance arrays is by far the least intrusive solution. Will require minimal adjustment to account for in the field, except when a whole fleet absolutely positively has to change to frigs mid combat!!

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.07.16 21:21:00 - [136]
 

Originally by: Toovhon

More fake tough guy bull ****



LOL, I've nothing to be embrassed by. I'm not the one showing my ass, you are. You jack offs just can't help your selves. Too funny. Keep going. :)

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.07.16 21:23:00 - [137]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida

Adding the run of the mill docking timer for all maintenance arrays is by far the least intrusive solution. Will require minimal adjustment to account for in the field, except when a whole fleet absolutely positively has to change to frigs mid combat!!



This is likely the least expensive, in terms of code, to implement.

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2011.07.16 22:01:00 - [138]
 

Edited by: Omara Otawan on 16/07/2011 22:03:27
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida

Adding the run of the mill docking timer for all maintenance arrays is by far the least intrusive solution. Will require minimal adjustment to account for in the field, except when a whole fleet absolutely positively has to change to frigs mid combat!!



Yes, it would just leave the question why a friendly carrier would refuse a friendly ship docking rights for attacking an enemy.

Makes sense for stations and gates as they are neutral entities, for ships of your own corp/alliance/fleet not so much.

Arbitrary answers like "it works better that way" dont really cut it here, given how wormhole jump/spawn mechanics work.


Edit: Given that the whole 'issue' is pretty much irrelevant in the grand scheme of things and ontop of that is easily being avoided by just a little common sense, I still see no valid reason to touch it.

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.17 00:12:00 - [139]
 

Originally by: Omara Otawan
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 16/07/2011 22:03:27
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida

Adding the run of the mill docking timer for all maintenance arrays is by far the least intrusive solution. Will require minimal adjustment to account for in the field, except when a whole fleet absolutely positively has to change to frigs mid combat!!



Yes, it would just leave the question why a friendly carrier would refuse a friendly ship docking rights for attacking an enemy.

Makes sense for stations and gates as they are neutral entities, for ships of your own corp/alliance/fleet not so much.

Arbitrary answers like "it works better that way" dont really cut it here, given how wormhole jump/spawn mechanics work.


Edit: Given that the whole 'issue' is pretty much irrelevant in the grand scheme of things and ontop of that is easily being avoided by just a little common sense, I still see no valid reason to touch it.


Common sense? You won't see any of that from the OP. He thinks he's being persecuted and 'rationalises' away any and all counter argument as trolling attacks.

P.S. How long do you think I can keep him embarrassing himself here for? :-) Five pages so far!

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.07.17 04:15:00 - [140]
 

Originally by: Toovhon

P.S. How long do you think I can keep him embarrassing himself here for? :-) Five pages so far!


LOL, keep it up. Show the world how much of an ass you truely are.

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.17 06:09:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Toovhon

P.S. How long do you think I can keep him embarrassing himself here for? :-) Five pages so far!


LOL, keep it up. Show the world how much of an ass you truely are.


How many supports have you got, again? :-D Nah, you're not wrong, are you? *snickers*

P.S. If you can't spell, at least use a spellchecker.

Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.17 06:50:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Skex Relbore

It obviously bothered you enough to post this thread then spend 5 pages defending it.

I'd say he spent as much time defending as you guys spent attacking him.

Quote:
(...) you made multiple errors that resulted in your death.

Let me reiterate you lost this fight through your own stupidity not because of the Orca's ship maintenance bay.

Yes, he handled the situation very poorly, like a noob really, and got shot to smithereens. However, try and not fall into the trap I did at first too: mocking him for his gameplay at the expensive of the legit issue he brings up.

When you got a player aggro timer on you, you're not supposed to dock up for a while (or jump gate). The Orca offers a way around that, in the form of what clearly appears to be a loophole. The only logical way to deal with this, therefore, is to close the loophole, and suspend the offender's docking privileges to the Orca's ship maintenance bay for the duration of the aggro timer as well.

Again, try and separate the logic of this reasoning from thinking about the circumstances of the fight; because they're irrelevant, really. It would, in fact, have been much wiser had the OP not mentioned the fight at all, and just outlined the issue. Alas, he didn't. Doesn't mean you can't strain yourself a little to distill the abstract of the matter at hand here, and base your vote on that.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.07.17 09:43:00 - [143]
 

Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 17/07/2011 09:51:10
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Yes, it would just leave the question why a friendly carrier would refuse a friendly ship docking rights for attacking an enemy....

The PF/RP side of things was sacrificed on the altar of balance a long time ago.
Why does a friendly player controlled station disallow docking?

The issue exists solely because of a sub-cap (the Orca) having a maintenance array with no restrictions. Even the bigger Rorqual has severe limitations:
Quote:
Due to its specialization towards industrial operations, its ship maintenance bay is able to accommodate only industrial ships, mining barges and their tech 2 variants

If people can't agree on having the same aggression mechanics apply across the board, then apply the Rorqual indy-only restrictions to the Orca.

Problem solved. Carriers are unaffected and RP/PF is satisfied, the only 'losers' are high-sec "PvP'ers".

Edit: To compensate the 2-3 people who use the Orca to actually haul assembled ships around which was the reason for not restricting its bay, give JF' and/or Freighters the ability to carry assembled ships.

Lady Spank
Amarr
In Praise Of Shadows

Posted - 2011.07.17 10:52:00 - [144]
 

Supported:

The cowardly risk-free PVP that Orca and carrier hot-swapping allows is completely at odds with the risk/reward model of Eve.

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.17 23:37:00 - [145]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
If people can't agree on having the same aggression mechanics apply across the board, then apply the Rorqual indy-only restrictions to the Orca.


Far better I think to simply apply a cooldown to ships with aggro docking inside an Orca.

It still shafts innocent people who try to escape inside an Orca from an agressor, and use ECM or combat mods/drones to get away to the safety of the Orca (and thus gain aggro). But at least it wouldn't gimp the Orca as you suggest doing so :-)

But really I think the best solution is the one we have now, where it's not perfect, but isn't as bad as the 'fixes' being suggested. Carebears can suck it up when they fall into an obvious trap, and PvPers can live with their targets sometimes escaping inside an Orca. Adapt or die. Don't try to 'fix' Eve till it's stuffed.

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2011.07.17 23:49:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida

If people can't agree on having the same aggression mechanics apply across the board, then apply the Rorqual indy-only restrictions to the Orca.



That would be a reasonable solution indeed.

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida

Edit: To compensate the 2-3 people who use the Orca to actually haul assembled ships around which was the reason for not restricting its bay, give JF' and/or Freighters the ability to carry assembled ships.


They already have that ability, you can make a courier contract and stick the plastic package in the cargo.

Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.18 00:41:00 - [147]
 

Originally by: Omara Otawan
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida

If people can't agree on having the same aggression mechanics apply across the board, then apply the Rorqual indy-only restrictions to the Orca.


That would be a reasonable solution indeed.

It certainly would NOT be. Orca can haul all sorts of ships; that's one of its assets and charms.

Applying a simple non-docking period to people with aggro is both in line with the already existing rules, and it's clean and simple.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.07.18 15:54:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: Toovhon

How many supports have you got, again? :-D Nah, you're not wrong, are you? *snickers*

P.S. If you can't spell, at least use a spellchecker.


ROFL - You've stooped to the lowest level of internet debate, you're now a grammar ****. Classic.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.07.18 15:59:00 - [149]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
If people can't agree on having the same aggression mechanics apply across the board, then apply the Rorqual indy-only restrictions to the Orca.



That's an interesting take on the issue as well.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.07.18 16:05:00 - [150]
 

Originally by: Ranka Mei

Again, try and separate the logic of this reasoning from thinking about the circumstances of the fight; because they're irrelevant, really. It would, in fact, have been much wiser had the OP not mentioned the fight at all, and just outlined the issue. Alas, he didn't. Doesn't mean you can't strain yourself a little to distill the abstract of the matter at hand here, and base your vote on that.


You know, had I done that, the very same chest thumping clowns would have said "Did you loose a ship noob?" or some other such comments. I choose to lay it all out and throw their crap back in their faces. I did this from the very first post, there are no edits there. My reactions and format of this thread have been quite deliberate.


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