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blankseplocked 【Proposal】A possible solution to all SP issues
 
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Evenus Battuta
Posted - 2011.07.09 03:19:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Evenus Battuta on 09/07/2011 04:54:39
Please don’t hurry to rage out as soon as you see the word ‘SP trade’. Read the post first and judge for yourself. It is not MT, it is not cheat, it brings no abnomal advantages and it creates nothing from thin air. It is just a system to allow you to actually 'earn' your sp like you always like to say. Yes, SP trade is already happening through character Bazaar, and this plan only makes it works better for EVERYONE.

Terrible NPE, stagnating and aging playerbase, endless whining and argue on forum, name changing plea now and then...Those are problems actually exist. No matter what's your opinion to specific issues, the biggest actual problem is that these problems EXIST. And a good system that prevent problems coming out at first is always better than telling yourself that you can live with them, shutting others up, or even deceiving yourself that they are the 'good part' and make you 'cool'.

Back to my plan, orignally derived from the idea of Ms Cassiopeia Andromedae, I made modification to make it feasible and without obvious flaw. The core idea will be:

Allow player A to sell the SP of specific skill to player B for isk in ingame market at the punishment of losing part of them.

Lets say a new technology in Eden that can extract part of your brain content to some storage media, not SP in general, but SP of specific skill that you trained. Others already injected the book can buy the media from you and inject it into their brain and get part of your extracted SP on that skill.

CONVERT RATE= (primaryattribute(buyer) * 2+secondaryattribute(buyer) * 1) /100

that will be theoretically 51%-89%. So the attribute points remain meaninful, you get punished for buying skills you train slow. And if you sell the skill you train quick and with the money buy those you train slow, you actually lose more time.

Example: Player A have 100 SP on skill on the skill 'Amarr Industrial' and found it unnecessary. He extracted it and sell the good 'Amarr Industrial SP' in market. Player B injects the book first and then buys the SP from A. The attributes of B are 28p+25w, so he get 100*(28*2+25)/100=81 skill points when he inject 100.

Of course trail accounts should be forbidden to sell SP. But rather than also forbidding them to buy it, I think a better and more direct solution to all the trail problem is simply forbid them to shoot at other players first.

why the plan benefits everyone:

Newbies will benefit:
--They finally have a way to do something to boost the character progress. This mechanism is a must to make any game attractive.
--They now have at least hope to eventually catch up with vets, hope itself really means a lot.

Vets will benefit:
--An access to remap your skill distribution, either because you are unsatisfyed with your former dicision or just want to try something new.
--immediate alts.
--extra free isk everyday if you do not want to train anything new.

CCP will benefit:
--skill points vanish with every transaction and is not gained any faster overall, this will eventually reach some balance point that you can control the infinite skill bigbang.
--when humans get stimulated by positive reward of what they do, they repeat it. When newbies see hope and can do something to help the character grow, they get happy doing the repeat and monotonous lv1, they immerse, they may even STAY in your broken game! How amazing!

Bazaar sellers will benefit:
--a bundle of skills,needed and not needed, patched together with an ugly name is currently price discounted. You will surely get more isk with selling skills alone seperately to those need them. Just extract all skills of the character, contract them to your main character, biomass the drained zombie, and take your time to sell.

everyone will benefit:

to be continued

Evenus Battuta
Posted - 2011.07.09 03:22:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Evenus Battuta on 09/07/2011 04:43:24
continue
everyone will benefit:
--no need to buy characters bad named and with skills you do not need. Those characters ugly, bad named and no one likes will be drained out and eventually biomassed! You can stick to the character you actually like and grow him up sooner.
--emergency money source.
--more noob, more prey, more lively universe.
--gallentes finally find a path to escape from their nightmare.Very Happy
--cannot jugde much from the birth date of a pilot, uncertainty is good for pvp, prepare to surprise or be surprised.
--all the 3 char slots of your account will become meaningful. You can train one and buy skills for the other 2.
--Yes, immersion.

Xearal
Minmatar
SOL Industries
Black Thorne Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.09 04:20:00 - [3]
 

This idea actually has a lot of merit in my book! I'm giving you a thumbs up!

Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.09 11:05:00 - [4]
 

Supported, as no ISK printing presses are involved.

+1

Tiina Turmiola
Minmatar
draketrain
Posted - 2011.07.09 11:41:00 - [5]
 

Hi,

I am 6-7 million sp character mainly flying a rifter. I am still using tech 1 guns.

And I don't understand why would anyone want to buy extra sp.

I personally think all this hunger for more sp is just result of impatience combined with having no clue about real game mechanics. You can do a lot of things without having tons of sp.

Generally, knowing how easy it is to "print" ISK from thin air, I'd say any kind of mechanic which allows you to get skillpoints with ISK (aside character transfer) will just allow players to create more ISK "printing" characters fast.

And at the end it is difficult to imagine how all this would benefit any real newbie because they need to learn how to fly ships and stuff first. And shouldn't even have ISK to buy more sp anyway. As a result this would only mean more advantage for bittervets who have too much ISK.

Only thing I'd really want to ask is CCP promising publicly they will never ever allow SP trading. If we go that road, eventually developing character and paying subs becomes pretty ****ing pointless.

Evenus Battuta
Posted - 2011.07.09 12:02:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Evenus Battuta on 09/07/2011 12:15:23
Originally by: Tiina Turmiola
Hi,

I am 6-7 million sp character mainly flying a rifter. I am still using tech 1 guns.

And I don't understand why would anyone want to buy extra sp.

I personally think all this hunger for more sp is just result of impatience combined with having no clue about real game mechanics. You can do a lot of things without having tons of sp.

Generally, knowing how easy it is to "print" ISK from thin air, I'd say any kind of mechanic which allows you to get skillpoints with ISK (aside character transfer) will just allow players to create more ISK "printing" characters fast.

And at the end it is difficult to imagine how all this would benefit any real newbie because they need to learn how to fly ships and stuff first. And shouldn't even have ISK to buy more sp anyway. As a result this would only mean more advantage for bittervets who have too much ISK.

Only thing I'd really want to ask is CCP promising publicly they will never ever allow SP trading. If we go that road, eventually developing character and paying subs becomes pretty ****ing pointless.


'I have basiclly 0 SP and I am happy flying rifter and you all must enjoy what I like! Otherwise you r playing the game wrong!'Oh not again please! Don't get so proud because you know some 'game mechanic' in your world.

You are free to have good time forever in your rifter. Other have the same freedom to like flying something bigger and it is totally OK whether you understand or not. They have the freedom to fly titan once they paid enough subs and without any knowledge about it, they also have the freedom of turning their titans into space dust on their first flight for not knowing how to operate them. It is their game experience and their own business. And it is not possible this can harm you in any way. I know you are worrying about noobs print as much isk as you do so you have to trade fair and no more cheap PLEX for you, but this will never happen and you know why if you really understand anything about the 'game mechanic'.

There won't be 'no SP trade promise' because it is already happening. Don't tell me they bought those character because they falled in love with them. The plan is just a better way to do it.

Neferfiti Akhenaten
Posted - 2011.07.09 14:11:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Neferfiti Akhenaten on 09/07/2011 14:11:34
Not supported.

Max Kolonko
Caldari
Worm Nation
Ash Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.09 15:03:00 - [8]
 

How about...... NO?

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.09 17:30:00 - [9]
 

Sorry. No.

You seem to have put more thought into this than the average impatient give me SP now because I wanna fly bigger ships guy. But still, no.

Good points against: having both isk buyable AND SP transferrable is just going to increase character sales. If you can do it, then so can somebody in china and sell a character to you.

Adding a mechanism to encourage more noobs to join, then use as a justification that more noobs means more of them to shoot and kill. Hmm, I think that being shot and killed has a lot more negative effect on someone's desire to continue playing than having to wait to train what skills matter to them.

'broken game' How do you figure? Because it doesn't have as many players as WOW etc? in 2008, EVE had 250,000 accounts, now there are over 330,000 that's positive growth. I'd like to think that EVE has gamers that are into different things. It's not meant as a MMO for the masses. And as such, I see no problem with the current player base size.

Darryl Ward
Posted - 2011.07.09 17:35:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Darryl Ward on 09/07/2011 17:36:53
No way. One person could game this so that multiple characters are training skills with the intent to sell them all to one character, you are essentially buying skill points with ISK. If I have 8 characters, they could all exist for the purpose of 7 of them selling their SP to one. One character could train skills faster than the game design intended, not supported.

Furthermore, since they are all my characters, I don't even lose money! I just shuffle it around between characters. This was not well thought out, or perhaps that is intentional.

Evenus Battuta
Posted - 2011.07.10 02:23:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Evenus Battuta on 10/07/2011 02:24:56
Originally by: Kaelie Onren

Good points against: having both isk buyable AND SP transferrable is just going to increase character sales. If you can do it, then so can somebody in china and sell a character to you.



Since character trade is already legal. I cannot figure why it becomes bad just because the seller is from China. What's the difference except your prejudice?

Originally by: Kaelie Onren

Adding a mechanism to encourage more noobs to join, then use as a justification that more noobs means more of them to shoot and kill. Hmm, I think that being shot and killed has a lot more negative effect on someone's desire to continue playing than having to wait to train what skills matter to them.



Not to say that I am right, my opinion is that most noobs don't quit because they get killed--player in everygame get killed and lost something. They quit eve because they see no HOPE. 2 years before fly the ship they like and free to enjoy the game basiclly implys never in a game. And when they get killed, they found that there will be basically never a chance to revenge. Then they really don't see the point to stay.

Originally by: Darryl Ward

No way. One person could game this so that multiple characters are training skills with the intent to sell them all to one character, you are essentially buying skill points with ISK.



SP from Bazaar merchandise will be much cheaper so it is not necessary that he do so, it makes no difference whether the alts are his own or others. And others won't deliberately train alts to sell sp because they must pay more to CCP first and simply selling PLEX will give them more. Anyway people are free to have alts now as long as they pay for them. In this case, they actually pay more for the same actual useable SP though.

Thank you 2 for seeing the different side and telling it. I will accept it honestly when you find some real flaw. Refuting with logic is much much better than repeating the 'happy rifter' crap again and again which is really getting old and disgusting.

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.10 06:40:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Toovhon on 10/07/2011 18:55:26
So you want to provide instant gratification and the ability for people to use alts as SP farms? You want to remove the need to plan, make choices and tradeoffs, and face consequences?

I've had fun from day one in Eve, and I still fly T1 ships most of the time. What, do you think you're suddenly going to be fulfilled, everything will be wonderful, all your problems will melt away, and you'll start having crazy fun, if only you can fly a very high level ship? Ok...

Eve is what you make of it. It's a player run game in terms of most content. If you're not enjoying yourself now, having a fancy ship isn't going to change that.

And making posts that ignore all the serious downsides of selling/trading SP isn't going to change Eve.

prooon
Wombats in Combat
Posted - 2011.07.10 15:24:00 - [13]
 

Intradasting.

Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.10 17:42:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Ranka Mei on 10/07/2011 17:42:28
Originally by: Toovhon

And making posts that ignore all the serious downsides of selling/trading SP isn't going to change Eve.

Nor is making posts that ignore the one argument for it; namely, that EVE may not really have that long any more. Certainly not 8 years; 2 maybe. I therefore support any proposal that allows redistribution of SP that doesn't involve 'printing' SP out of thin air.

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.10 18:59:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Ranka Mei
Edited by: Ranka Mei on 10/07/2011 17:42:28
Originally by: Toovhon

And making posts that ignore all the serious downsides of selling/trading SP isn't going to change Eve.

Nor is making posts that ignore the one argument for it; namely, that EVE may not really have that long any more. Certainly not 8 years; 2 maybe. I therefore support any proposal that allows redistribution of SP that doesn't involve 'printing' SP out of thin air.


Keep ignoring reality - i.e. that Eve is growing and has been since day one, no one who matters supports ruining Eve with SP trading/selling, and simple logic tells us removing progression destroys MMOs.

The delusion is powerful with these fools...

Bo Tosh
Posted - 2011.07.11 08:28:00 - [16]
 

Not supported.

Having to wait and work for your latest ship is one of the things that separates PvP in EvE from the instant gratification of FPS. When you have had to train and save for that ship and you then put it on the line in combat it means something, the risk and loss is much more real than simply being popped and running for an item respawn point.

Also the speed of skill training means you get to know the ships you have already trained, as well as many of the basic tactics required for your playstyle. I would rather the current progression rather than rich noobs buying massive amounts of SP, jumping into an expensive ship they have no idea how to fly and dying in a fire in their first encounter (funny as it maybe) followed by ragequit. The idea is to encourage long term players not instant thrill seekers who only stay with the game for a few months.

Papy Julo
Posted - 2011.07.19 10:19:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Papy Julo on 19/07/2011 14:03:51
Edited by: Papy Julo on 19/07/2011 10:19:15
"Instant gratification" allready exists with the character bazar and PLEX. You can buy whatever you want in EvE with real cash : ships, faction stuff, character ...

The main (discutable?) argument against SP Selling is that, using the character bazar, you dont "create" SP. SP has been trained. With this solution, this argument vanished.


To balance this, storing SP in a pill, should also have a cost (in aurum or isk, whatever). I am totally convinced that SP selling, or SP Transfer is a good thing for EvE.

Sinikka Huiputti
Posted - 2011.07.19 13:02:00 - [18]
 

Quote:
Newbies will benefit:
--They finally have a way to do something to boost the character progress. This mechanism is a must to make any game attractive.



i dont think we are playing the same game.

people should just stick with the rifter until they have clue or go play wow. i wish i felt like joking here.

sp doesnt make you good in this game, thus any sp trade threads are 99% trolling 1% of not having a clue so any people making up this crap should be deducted 1 mil sp.


Evenus Battuta
Posted - 2011.07.19 14:08:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Sinikka Huiputti
Quote:
Newbies will benefit:
--They finally have a way to do something to boost the character progress. This mechanism is a must to make any game attractive.



i dont think we are playing the same game.

people should just stick with the rifter until they have clue or go play wow. i wish i felt like joking here.

sp doesnt make you good in this game, thus any sp trade threads are 99% trolling 1% of not having a clue so any people making up this crap should be deducted 1 mil sp.




Don't mean to argue, I just feel that as a player who thinks that 'SP means nothing and doesn't make you good', maybe you are trying too hard to defend your advantage on it.

Not only you, of course, interestingly.

Nikita Keriget
Posted - 2011.07.19 18:54:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Papy Julo
Edited by: Papy Julo on 19/07/2011 14:03:51
Edited by: Papy Julo on 19/07/2011 10:19:15
"Instant gratification" allready exists with the character bazar and PLEX. You can buy whatever you want in EvE with real cash : ships, faction stuff, character ...

The main (discutable?) argument against SP Selling is that, using the character bazar, you dont "create" SP. SP has been trained. With this solution, this argument vanished.


To balance this, storing SP in a pill, should also have a cost (in aurum or isk, whatever). I am totally convinced that SP selling, or SP Transfer is a good thing for EvE.



Doesn't create SP out of thin air, allows those of us who like our characters to develop them instead of the detachment the character bazaar promotes. Sounds good to me.

I'd prefer the simplicity of assuming a worst case conversion rate, but then having SP convert into a generic pool that can be applied to any skill.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.20 08:03:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 20/07/2011 08:30:17
Most of you are forgetting that SP need not just be used to get piloting 'that new shiny T2 ship'. If that was the only problem it still would be a pretty bad idea... BUT the more damaging one that I see is that SP is the fabric that holds all character progression in the game at a common playing field. You have a lot of professions which are specialized like trading, mining, invention etc, and the only thing that makes a character who does this as their livelihood feasible is the fact that they sacrificed a good amount of their training time to get good at PI or Exploration, or Trading etc. If you open up SP to anyone who wants to pay for it, you basically ruin their livelihood and means of living by flooding the market with newbie wet-nosed traders, specialty miners, manufacturers etc, who didn't have to sacrifice anything to gain those specialized skills. This is categorically BAD.

It's essentially the same as saying, you can earn a university degree in 4 years, by paying tuition, and doing the coursework, OR you can bribe the DEAN and get a degree in 1 day. Making that bad situation worse, you will then flood the market with unqualified, doctors and dentists who have no idea how to take a patients temperature, or clean tartar.

Rented
Posted - 2011.07.20 19:37:00 - [22]
 

I'd point out the obvious flaws but, simply by failing to see them in the first place, you've demonstrated yourself to be beyond such things as basic common sense, so I shan't bother.

Uber Root
Posted - 2011.07.20 20:38:00 - [23]
 

Sorry but ... NO!

i honor you made some serious thoughts there but still no...


 

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