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blankseplocked Absolutely essential, optimal level 5s (theory)
 
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Saul Perry
Posted - 2011.07.08 20:24:00 - [1]
 

Ok, this not an advice post or and advice question exactly. It's more of a theory post. I actually think with skill training such as it is, there are plenty of great suggestions for essential 5s, and anyone worried about 'better' or 'worse' skills to train is never really far off and will need to get most of the typically recommended 5s sooner or later anyways.

So onto theory... SP and skill levels have diminishing returns. With each level, skill training takes longer to get the same benefits. A 5 takes way longer than a 4, which takes longer than a 3,.... ok

If a player was seeking optimal combat performance for any given low sp amount, they would of course be better off training lots of 1s, then lots of 2s, etc before taking too many diminishing returns on their sp investment. I consider this uncontroversial. Basically all I am saying is that, for example, you get more out of training energy management, energy systems operation, shield management, hull upgrades, and perhaps other skills to lvl 1 that you's get out of training just one of those to lvl 2.

It's for these reasons I like to clarify to total newbies who've heard they NEED drones 5 (for example) that they really need other things more if they only have (say) 100k in sp.

But obviously, as the skills accumulated, some skills are so important we'd need to train then higher, even if we were just trying to create an absolutely optimal pilot for (say) 250k or 500k or 1m skillpoints. And eventually we'd train some 4s and some 5s because they are just that useful.

I personally think this would happen far later into training than most people seem to think, but no doubt it would happen long before we had all skills at 4.

So, would a TRULY optimal (say) 1m sp pilot have a 5 trained? would an optimal 2m sp pilot? And what would these first 5's be?

I'll start with the obvious - Engineering. gotta be the top priority I think. Powergrid and perhaps more importantly - thermodynamics.

But what next? somewhat dependent maybe but even that answer would interest me, since it might also NOT be dependent or be common to many kinds of builds. Thoughts?

Tugrath Akers
Posted - 2011.07.08 20:53:00 - [2]
 

I'm at 2.5m right now and have 4 level 5 skills:

1. Engineering - for the reasons you mentioned
2. Gunnery - unlock large turrets
3. Drones
4. Scout Drones - Amazing what a 25m^3 drone bay and 5 Hobgoblin IIs can do for your combat efficiency

Mister Agreeable
Posted - 2011.07.08 20:57:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Mister Agreeable on 08/07/2011 20:58:14
You NEED drones 5 somewhere around 1msp mark.

Terminating EVE
Posted - 2011.07.08 23:21:00 - [4]
 

i disagree.. Im training up a Tengu Pilot from scratch and Im not gonna have any drone skills!

Saul Perry
Posted - 2011.07.08 23:55:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Saul Perry on 08/07/2011 23:59:41

Yeah, I cannot see Drones 5 near the top of this list. I know - situational. Maybe some drone builds would want it second or dare I say it... First?! nah

I can see now I've been way too vague in this question. I meant pvp, but even that's too vague cause solo pvp would surely generate different answers than in fleet ops, and so on.

Really, I think after engineering (which I maintain has to be #1 for just about anyone) the next will probably be your weapon of choice -- So yeah, maybe drones 5, but also maybe small projectiles 5 or gunnery 5 or something like that.

I do also wonder if maybe near the top would be a focused ship skill like racial frig 5, but that seems unlikely since it's a x2. then again some ships would get the effective gain of two or more x1 skills from ship damage bonuses. And in general I still think any 5s would optimally come later than most think.

Like if eve held tourneys for only 1-3 mil sp players it wouldn't surprise me if after a lot of building and testing of characters, eventually they'd typically all be toons with just 1 to 3 level 5 skills. The diminishing returns just seem too wasteful at that early stage. but then maybe the advantage of getting into a Tech 2 would all be worth it, even if 'underskilled' by typical eve standards.

though more and more I think this question might be too situational to answer with much generality.

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.07.09 01:37:00 - [6]
 

I think you should order skills by rank, getting the most skill the fastest.

Example, for essential rank 1 skills:

* Engineering 5
* Electronics 5
* Energy Systems Operation 5
* Spaceship Command 5
* Navigation 5

Barbarella Smith
Posted - 2011.07.09 19:45:00 - [7]
 

frigate V may be a Smile2x skill but you have to remember the ship bonuses. for instance. at 10% kinetic damage per frigate level, the Breacher will add 50% damage to your small missiles. just an example, but ship bonuses are just as important as the actual weapon or module skills.

Jimmy Duce
Chaotic Tranquility
Posted - 2011.07.10 17:31:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Barbarella Smith
frigate V may be a Smile2x skill but you have to remember the ship bonuses. for instance. at 10% kinetic damage per frigate level, the Breacher will add 50% damage to your small missiles. just an example, but ship bonuses are just as important as the actual weapon or module skills.



I think you confused your ships and bonuses but your point still stands

lordlulzs
Posted - 2011.07.11 05:05:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: lordlulzs on 11/07/2011 05:05:59
Drones are pure crap, not only do they have laughable dps but they also increase server lagh and sometimes flat out don't work.

Edit: Oh look at that more bugs which are affecting fighters and fighter bombers, Sorry you trained that. Sad


mnybag2
Posted - 2011.07.12 15:51:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: lordlulzs
Edited by: lordlulzs on 11/07/2011 05:05:59
Drones are pure crap, not only do they have laughable dps but they also increase server lagh and sometimes flat out don't work.

Edit: Oh look at that more bugs which are affecting fighters and fighter bombers, Sorry you trained that. Sad




Just because drones dont fit your play style, doesnt mean drones are bad in general. The domi is IMO one of the best pve ships because you can just set it and forget it. With sentries you can get upwards of 300 dps at 80 km. Furthermore, drones are a great utility in any sized fleet. A couple wings of ecm drones can lock down pretty much anything, and a wing of them will pretty much fit into any ship bigger than a cruiser. Ships with the bay big enough can slide some large logi drones in and can possibly save an ally thats taking heat.

Lastly, those trainning drone skills will have a leg up when theyre moving towards carrier since they already have alot of the related skills done.

Nerath Naaris
Pink Winged Unicorns for Peace Love and Anarchy
Posted - 2011.07.14 16:45:00 - [11]
 

Drones V is a pretty important because it unlocks Drone Interfacing, which effectively gives you yet another Drone per level of this skill, so the pay-off for the time invested is actually a lot higher, if you include the fist three levels of DI (which come for a cheap 40k skillpoints), for example.
For ships that rely heavily on drones like the Vexor, this is not unimportant.

That aside, one cannot have enough cap imo, so any skill that gives moar of it should be quite high on any priority list....

Jizaiho Dicontis
Posted - 2011.07.16 03:04:00 - [12]
 

(Speaking from a PvE view)

-Engineering 5- yes, i agree that is 1st.
-Electronics 5- both Engineering and Electronics i would say are a must, not only because they unlock better skills but having a 25% bonus to powergrid and cpu is a huge plus for lower sp players and the benefit just keeps getting bigger as you fit larger ships.
-Drones 5- i can agree that this is situational, mostly to your faction somewhat. Miners will want to get this somewhere along the line, and gallente will want this if they go droneboat, but not exactly sure where a low sp amarr player would find a use for this.

So i guess next on the list would be once again highly situational... go for T2 ships, advanced turrets, drones....

Frigs 5 would be a nice choice but bonuses do not mean much if you cant hit a ship 500m out. Not only that but those nice navy ships will hold you over, even more so with some good firepower.

So i feel either Drones 5 or T2 Small Turrets are 3rd on the list depending on your goal. I know a Federation Navy Comet can field 5 light drones so this would be a huge help and a great start for a Vexor too. Or if your not down that path, some extra DPS would be a great help about now, T2 turrets would put you with a good advantage cause its does not take much to fit a ship with some good defenses and if your cap can only hold your rep/booster for 30+ sec you should still be good to go.

Then i think this is a good time to put -Frigs 5- on the list in 4th place. By now you got the DPS and some great fitting boosters, great time to get a nice ship. Well that is my 2 cents.

Eliza Capri
Posted - 2011.07.16 08:20:00 - [13]
 

I'd say weapon upgrades and advanced weapon upgrades are pretty much high up there. You'd want both skills at lvl 5 eventually. AWU should probably be your first higher rank skill to bring to lvl 5, followed by battlecruisers and medium T2 guns of your choice.

To all new players, I'd say to not rush into battleships until you have WU/AWU, battlecruisers, medium T2 specialization and all the rank 1/2 support skills to level 5.

Once you have that, training battleships to lvl 5 and large T2 guns of your choice will be a breeze.

madpsychc0killer
Posted - 2011.07.16 08:47:00 - [14]
 

hull upgrades 5, DCII @ 4 and then a T2 armour tank @ 5, Rank 2 skill, should be the first one you get to 5 if your planning going the armour route

Cunane Jeran
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.16 11:51:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Cunane Jeran on 16/07/2011 11:53:02
Weapons Upgrades 5 needs to be on that list, as it allows for AWU which i've found is the difference between an ok fit and a solid fit. More so if your Gallente.

*EDIT* after reading the actual OP instead of skimming, I'd put Drones 5 or Hull upgrades 5 as the top two at low sp, again espically if your Gallente.

Akisa Damaar
Posted - 2011.07.16 17:03:00 - [16]
 

Engineering (uncontested number 1 prio imho)
Electronics
Drones (only skip if you are absolutly sure what you are doing)
Weapon Upgrades
Medium Weapon of your choice

Tech 2 weapons and ammo make a big difference ... and you will use medium weapons for a pretty long time (cruiser, battlecruiser) and probably come back to them later (t2 and t3 cruisers)

I personally question hull upgrades as one of the top skills to train to 5. You don't need t2 hardeners before you can fly a battleship, which is quite a bit down the sp road.

Potato IQ
Posted - 2011.07.17 11:11:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Eliza Capri
To all new players, I'd say to not rush into battleships until you have WU/AWU, battlecruisers, medium T2 specialization and all the rank 1/2 support skills to level 5.



What nonsense. WU/AWU are nice to have, but not essential if you go meta 4, and you should not put such high SP restrictions before getting into a BS

T2 tank, meta 4 spank and T2 drones would be my order of skilling if starting out for PvE, so whatever to lvl V that the pre-reqs demand. I would then do support to lvl IV and then take the pre-reqs for T2 weapons which will mean some Vs

Jack Miton
Caldari
Invictus Australis
Merciless.
Posted - 2011.07.19 01:03:00 - [18]
 

If drones 5 is not the first L5 skill you train, youre doing it wrong.
After that, do all the L5 skills you need for T3 subsystems. (no, not just for the ships.)

Zoom Sanna
Posted - 2011.07.21 08:14:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Eliza Capri

To all new players, I'd say to not rush into battleships until you have ... battlecruisers ... to level 5.



WTF?


Nonnosa
Amarr
Posted - 2011.07.22 02:52:00 - [20]
 

I don't think it should based on the amount of SP but the ship you are flying.

Engineering and Electronics are the first skills you should (must!) train to V. Start a new alt and find how painful fitting ships can be. Energy management V while seeming take an immense amount of time for rookies (at least 2 weeks Wink ) needs to be trained while flying cruisers at the latest.

All the 'titled' skills should trained to V while in a BC. Though I left Shield Management at IV for ages as I armour tank, it only got to V with the learning skills rebate.

Before moving to a BS you should have the skills for a full T2 fit in mid and lo slots. Drones V needs trained to kill the warp scrambling frigates in level 4 missions. Gallente with their ship bonus should train it at cruiser, Amaar with large drone bays in BC while Minnie and Caldari may be able to put it off till BS. Drone Interfacing V has to considered sometime as the +20% per level is too large to ignore.

T2 guns are generally trained before T2 ships and their higher power grid requirements need at least AWU IV whose prerequisite is WU V. AWU V is trained when the frustration of the three week train time is out weighed by the frustration of being short 0.5 grid while fitting ships. However with AWU V you still come up with fantastic loadouts where you are short and have to consider implants. Evil or Very Mad Laughing


Dani Leone
Gallente
Positively Idle
Posted - 2011.07.23 06:48:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Zoom Sanna
Originally by: Eliza Capri

To all new players, I'd say to not rush into battleships until you have ... battlecruisers ... to level 5.



WTF?




It's very good advice, learn to pilot smaller hulls to their maximum potential before jumping up to the bigger ship class, the worst mistake most newbs make is going for what they see as the biggest and baddest ship they can get into as soon as they can. A well fitted maxxed out BC will be better both for missions and certainly for PVP than a low skilled BS.

For PVPers even better advise would be don't train for anything above Destroyer size before you can fly to L IV+ all the T2 frigate hull subtypes and have their T2 gun/missile skills and support to IV+.


Exploited Engineer
Posted - 2011.07.24 12:59:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Dani Leone
Originally by: Zoom Sanna
Originally by: Eliza Capri

To all new players, I'd say to not rush into battleships until you have ... battlecruisers ... to level 5.



WTF?




It's very good advice, learn to pilot smaller hulls to their maximum potential before jumping up to the bigger ship class, the worst mistake most newbs make is going for what they see as the biggest and baddest ship they can get into as soon as they can. A well fitted maxxed out BC will be better both for missions and certainly for PVP than a low skilled BS.


However, a Drake with BC4 will chew through Lv3s (and Lv4s once you get your shield skills up and know which missions to decline) just fine, and the training time saved can be applied toward BS 5.

Ravenal
The Fated
E.Y
Posted - 2011.07.27 23:32:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: lordlulzs
Drones are pure crap, not only do they have laughable dps but they also increase server lagh and sometimes flat out don't work.



wrong wrong wrong wrong ... etc

They are great for assist on a tackler and uncloaking ships. Drones from a mid sized fleet is nothing to sneeze at + I direct you to a certain alliance tournament fight that had 10 thorax's and ECM drones.

Like I said, you are wrong. Drones lvl5 is one of the best rank 1 skills you can get.

XGS Crimson
Posted - 2011.07.28 11:15:00 - [24]
 

Combat character:
Engineering
Electronics
Mechanic
Gunnery
Drones
Scout Drones
Weapons upgrades
Energy systems
Energy management
Biology (not often mentioned however this is awesome)

Basically, all teir 1 skills that are related to ship performance you want to get to level 5 as they form the basis of improving your ship to the level of.. ok :)

Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
Posted - 2011.08.02 14:59:00 - [25]
 

I *still* don't have electonics V trained on multiple toons that have 15mil+ SP.

It's the most over-rated skill there is, so few fits are particularly tight on CPU. Where they are, the 3% implant is cheap as chips.

I'd name Engineering V and WU IV for any PVP toon. Meta IV damage mods are not cost efficient to keep losing :P

Bad Vector
Posted - 2011.08.04 20:21:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Bad Vector on 04/08/2011 20:22:06
I could be wrong, But If you want the best bang for your buck as SP goes. Train for any T3 ship ya like.

as a bonus.
T2 cruisers have alot of use in pvp.
and no wasted skills as they all are needed.

T-3 for the win.

BearJews
Posted - 2011.08.04 21:15:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: BearJews on 04/08/2011 21:15:54
ya training for a t3 (which is what i did because i wanted a steeping stone ship before i get the golem) was a great choice for me. It caused me to get several important skills to lvl 5 so i could train for the subsystems. This also caused me to get tech 2 HMLS, which in turn caused me to upgrade my skills enough to have them hit (npcs) for a constant high dps. Which also caused me to get the important fitting skills done as well so i could fit the t2 as well as t2 rigs. IT has taken me something like 3 months to train for a tengu that puts out 600 dps, but man is it awesome when i compare it to my last mission runner which was a 300 dps raven.

Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
Posted - 2011.08.04 21:33:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Lady Go Diveher
I *still* don't have electonics V trained on multiple toons that have 15mil+ SP.

It's the most over-rated skill there is, so few fits are particularly tight on CPU. Where they are, the 3% implant is cheap as chips.


I take it you don't fly many missile or serious drone ships? Cause CPU seems to come up often enough for me at least....

Having said that, grid is a bigger issue overall; no denying that. Which is why AWU is so coveted even for its small, limited bonus.

As to the original question: I'm going to have to throw in for Drones 5. Starting at BC, every single ship benefits from this one. Any Gallente pilot should have it -- if not for the additional drones, for DI, as already mentioned. Getting twice the damage from your lonely single drone on a Taranis (or your three on a Dramiel, whatever) is a huge bonus and it scales phenomenally well as you move up ship types.

Tigerras
Smash Incorporated
Posted - 2011.08.04 23:00:00 - [29]
 

One of the biggest reasons for lvl 5 skills is not for the lvl 5 skill bonus, but because it's a requirement for other skills or tech 2 equipment...as is the case for drones 5. Tech 2 drones are a massive improvement for drone DPS, as is access to the skill drone interfacing, which requires drones V.

Dalloway Makee
Posted - 2011.08.06 11:46:00 - [30]
 

Doesn't Drones 5 kind of flat out suck if you tend to fly ships that have no drone bay? Or are we not meant to fly those ships?


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