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Hannibal Fisher
Posted - 2011.07.08 19:19:00 - [1]
 

Okay - i think my calculator is broken. Can you guys help me figure something out?

I just did some math, and it came out that unless you have a pretty big fleet of hulks in the same system, a battle cruiser with do more for the yield of your mining fleet than an orca. Sounds crazy right? Tell me if i'm missing something. (obviously the orca can haul a good amount of ore also, but this conversation is only focused on yield, and assumes you have an alternate solution for logistics).

Idea 1
Orcas fit three gang-links. BC Can only fit one.

This seems obvious on the surface, but only one gang link has a tangible effect on yield. The ones for laser cap use and range probably do very little to increase fleet yield. So the BC can fit the only one that really matters when it comes to yield.

Idea 2
The Orca has a bonus to link effectiveness, the hurricane does not.

This is true, so it comes down to the yield of the BC itself vs the ocra's slight advantage in fleet bonus. The orca gets a 15% bonus to the mining director link at lvl 5. This is where it gets tricky - can someone tell me how exactly to apply that bonus? Does it go to the mining director modules base value of 2%, netting .3% fleet yeild? or does it apply to the modified value (assuming director level 5) of 10% or what?

For the sake of this calculation, lets be generous and assume the orca gives the fleet 5% more yield than the BC does. So in order for the orca to be the better choice, 5% of fleet yield must outweigh the contributions of the battle-cruiser.

I have a hurricane I fit for this purpose as a stop-gap until I could get into hulks and orcas. It has 6 miner II's and a gang link. With maxed skills, and leadership bonuses it pulls in about 750m3/min. I understand a hulk pulls in about twice that plus a little with leadership bonuses. So at 5% you need 10 hulks for the fleet bonus to surpass what the can can contribute.

Personally most of the mining fleets I find myself in have less than 10 hulks. I'm wondering if an orca will ever really help me out.

What am I missing?

Azurun Li
Posted - 2011.07.08 20:34:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Azurun Li on 08/07/2011 20:37:15

Hiya Hannibal,

Your math is close, but not quite right. Here are some factors to alter your math:

I currently have Industrial Command Ships at 3 and the Mining Foreman Implant. In the Orca I provide a net mining yeild bonus of 52.37%. In a BC I would provide a 48.39% bonus. If I spent the time to raise Industrial Command Ships to 5, I would rase my bonus to 55.14%.

So, the difference between BC and Orca mining yeild will usually be between 3.98% and 6.75%. Which is pretty close to your 5% estimate.

I cannot remember the exact numbers right now, but the best Hulk pilot in my usual mining crew pulls in more than 1600 m3 without any fleet bonuses.

The real difference between the BC and the Orca is hauling time. In your theoretical BC-led mining op, who will be hauling?

Either you will need a dedicated hauler or the Hulks will need to dock every time their holds are full. A Hulk that uses both low slots for MLU IIs has about 8000 m3 in cargo space, meaning that it fills up after about 4 minutes of hauling (total bonuses will bring a Hulk to over 2000 m3 per min). Even if it takes just one minute for the Hulk to unload at base, that unloading time becomes 1 minute out of 5, or 20% of their mining time. Removing a MLU II in favor of a cargohold expander increases how much they can hold, but with a steep 9% loss of mining bonuses. Not a great choice.

If you have a dedicated hauler then you need to account for a cut of the profits for them too. I mean, that player could be mining, right?

So, let's be generous and say that hauling, or paying a hauler, only costs about 15% of your mining revenue. Take the 5% bonus that the Orca dishes out on top of the usual cycle time bonuses plus the 15% bonus for not having a dedicated hauler, and you have a 20% bonus. With a decent (not maxed) Hulk, that means you're providing about 320 m3 per minute ADDITIONAL BONUS ORE than you would in your Hurricane.

You say your Hurricane can mine about 750 m3? Cool. That means that for one or two Hulks, the 'Cane is a marginally better choice. Everyone will just have to unload their own ore. Once you hit that third Hulk, you'll be better off with the Orca.

But maybe that's just how I see it. Cool

[Edited for typos]

Hannibal Fisher
Posted - 2011.07.08 20:58:00 - [3]
 

That's pretty close to the conclusion I had reached after trial and error. My break point was 3 & below, BC, 4 or more - orca. But when i did the math it was nuts.

I guess it comes down to your logistics model. It could make sense with more to use the BC if you have young pilots around that can run indies but not hulks/covetors for example... But yeah logistics is the wild card there...

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.07.08 22:10:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 08/07/2011 22:31:54

Total Mining Link Bonus = Mining Link Bonus * Mining Director * (1 + Warfare Link Specialist * 0.10) * (1 + Industrial Command Ships * 0.03) * (1 + Mining Foreman Mindlink Mining Link Bonus)

Yield bonus depends on the Mining Foreman Link - Mining Optimization and the Mining Foreman Mindlink.

Yield bonus = (1 + Mining Foreman Mindlink Yield Bonus) / (1 - mining link cycle reduction bonus)

Example:
Mining Director 5
Warfare Link Specialist 5
Industrial Command Ship 5
Minning Mindlink Implant

Orca Link Bonus = 0.02 * 5 * (1 + 5 * 0.1) * (1 + 5 * 0.03) * 1.5 = 0.258750
Total yield bonus = 1.15 / (1 - 0.25875) = 1.551433 so 55.14% more ore with Orca

BC Link Bonus = 0.02 * 5 * (1 + 5 * 0.1) * 1.5 = 0.225
Total yield bonus = 1.15 / (1 - 0.225) = 1.483870 so 48.38% more ore with BC


You might also want to look at my post in the thread: 4 Hulks & Orca

Not only do you get the 3%/level Orca link bonus over a BC, but you also get a large hauler, plus it can carry ships and refit.

Taedrin
Gallente
Kushan Industrial
Posted - 2011.07.09 00:21:00 - [5]
 

When I mined, that range bonus was VERY convenient at times. Don't knock it just because it doesn't look that great on paper.

Darian Nystrom
Posted - 2011.07.09 01:36:00 - [6]
 

The range bonus is very useful and the orca is basically a gigantic secure can. I love mine would take the slightly less yield for the convenience the orca offers, spare mining crystals, drones and ships available, mining bonuses and a gigantic hold that cant be can flipped.

Khira Kitamatsu
Posted - 2011.07.09 13:56:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Khira Kitamatsu on 09/07/2011 13:57:05


If you have all the skills required to fly the Orca properly and at full efficiency, she is a far better choice than a BC - hands down. Plus, she can hold ore and do other op's. So no a BC is not all that great at all.

I will grant you this. CCP needs to fix a lot of stuff in mining. Either make it totally autonomous, or make it more fun. The reason there are bots is because CCP has taken what could be a fun aspect of the game and made it boring and the least profitable of all the activities a player can participate in.

Coriz
Posted - 2011.07.10 10:11:00 - [8]
 

I love how the three mining booster modules shutdown when the orca warps, dropping the fleet bonus until you land and reactivate them

Harris
Posted - 2011.07.10 11:09:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Coriz
I love how the three mining booster modules shutdown when the orca warps, dropping the fleet bonus until you land and reactivate them

This is a non-issue.

With a bit of timing on the part of your miners, communicating with your orca pilot you never need to lose the bonuses. You don't lose the bonuses unless the strip miner cycle finished while the modules are still unactivated.


grumpyguts1
Posted - 2011.07.10 23:05:00 - [10]
 

Too much maths.. even if the bonuses weren't better, I haven't see an orca "flipped" yet and I don't need to dock after every 3 cycles. Orca = BIG safe can..

Steve Thomas
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2011.07.11 05:08:00 - [11]
 

the Question always comes down to Orca Vs Hauler.

If you use a Hauler to haul off your ore, a Orca is always and obviosly better.

If you use a BC and a hauler, your a fliping idiot unless you realy need the firepower that a BP brings. but if you also bring a hauler your right back to the whole "why use a Hauler if you can bring an Orca?" question.

as for range, get a big enough roid belt and range does become an issue especialy given how freaking slow your mining fleet is.

as for cap, if youhave people doing a lot of micromanaging of the lasers it helps, otherwise not so mutch




eXotic emPress
Posted - 2011.07.11 09:38:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: eXotic emPress on 11/07/2011 09:42:18
Edited by: eXotic emPress on 11/07/2011 09:41:13
Edited by: eXotic emPress on 11/07/2011 09:40:20
go back to mission running.
A Bc vs an orca for mining bonuses? rly, srsly.
First of all, if your Orca pilot doesn't have Mining Director 5 and the Mining Foreman mindlink, he/she needs to improve.
My pilot has those and any miner right now, can hit rocks up to 22.93 plus km. If I swap out for the Information mindlink, then the miners can fire at ungodly range but miners don't need any more than the previous distance. You want mining yield for your fleet? You had better find or get your miners cybernetics 5, that 5 % mining yield implant, exhumers 5 and if you're a dirty, stinking, filthy rich lowlife, plug in Michi's augmentor so you can add another 5% mining yield bonus to your miners. Plus, if your miners can't use t2 crystals, might as well be using a bs with 8 mining lasers to mine.
your calculator's not broken. A bc vs an orca for mining yields? get out of my asteroid belts~!!!!!! btw , you are a chump if you're not using a fully trained up Orca pilot with Mining Foreman mindlink and fully skilled hulk pilots with no 5% mining yield implant (plus 1 if you also have Michi's Augmentor in their head, too) and t2 crystals.

Shana Matika
Posted - 2011.07.11 12:57:00 - [13]
 

First everything above:

  • Why a Hauler and a booster if you get both in one

  • Even 1 Hulk + 1 Orca will be beter then 2 hulks and dockinggames!

  • No Jet-can Mining

  • Refit in space

  • 80km Tractor (if you've a large field)

  • Orca can field Mining drones while waiting to fill up

  • Orca can check more or less the entire belt with survey scanner


Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.11 16:38:00 - [14]
 

Quote:
Okay - i think my calculator is broken. Can you guys help me figure something out?

I just did some meth,


Fixed.

Kelmurdoch
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.07.11 16:56:00 - [15]
 

Has anyone considered using a command ship for mining bonuses and the Orca for hauling?

Also, when the Orca docks to unload at a station are the bonuses lost?

(Assuming a 6 account setup; 4 hulks, 1 command, 1 orca)

Steve Thomas
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2011.07.11 23:03:00 - [16]
 

your better off if you have an orca to have all the other ships as Hulks.

If you actualy need a BC flying with you for firepower, its better to fit that as a combat ship

Beat General
Posted - 2011.07.12 20:00:00 - [17]
 

Mining in general is for chumps, so yes. Orca is for chumps.

-general levy

Morgassana
Habius Corpus Delicti
Dead Space inc Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.12 20:46:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Morgassana on 12/07/2011 20:46:58
or.. go to 0.0 space w/ a maxed out Rorqual pilot and really burn thru belts with abandon...
My best hulk pilot was pulling in just shy of 1900m³/cycle per strip, a cycle time of really really fast.. and... Ore Crushing™

TravisWB
Posted - 2011.07.13 02:22:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Coriz
I love how the three mining booster modules shutdown when the orca warps, dropping the fleet bonus until you land and reactivate them



That's why you need 2 orcas for 4 maxed miners running dual mining boosters II in their lows.

One Orca boosts, the other hauls. The 2nd Orca pilot runs a Hulk until the boost orca is nearly full and then the 2nd Orca pilot swaps out his Hulk for the haul Orca. At station btw, not in space.

That way the fleet never loses boost.

And max mining about gets close to 1800m3.


Shana Matika
Posted - 2011.07.13 07:51:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Kelmurdoch
Has anyone considered using a command ship for mining bonuses and the Orca for hauling?

Also, when the Orca docks to unload at a station are the bonuses lost?

(Assuming a 6 account setup; 4 hulks, 1 command, 1 orca)


In this scenario the Booster would be better in an orca - more yield + better boost. The hauler will be needed with 4hulks + especialy in systems without stations/POS

With smaller fleets (1 orca and up to 3 Hulks) just dock the orca every 25min. You will lose 1 cycle in the badest case. But if you coordinate the docking with the miners there won't be much problems.

As soon as there are 5-6 Hulks a 2nd Orca is absolutly needed. I use one Orca with 2 mining gang links (range and cycle before you ask) and one tractor. The other has 1 tractor and 2 salvager II - why waste the salvage :)
The booster Orca will be in the middle near some roids using Mining Drones II on them.

Hulks mine everything from far to near. Every pilot get one type to avoid crossing beams - if Ghostbuster thought us one thing crossing beams are a baaaaad thing Wink
Use this especialy while using booster orca as transport - before Orca warps to station all hulks switch to roids near then 15km - if booster is off

gallaoth
Posted - 2011.07.13 10:02:00 - [21]
 

eve with new players get them in retrievers more mining more profits use the orca gives bigger bonuses helps u out to help them out :)

Tash'k Omar
Apple Construction Inc
Posted - 2011.07.13 17:08:00 - [22]
 

While yes, this idea works in theory, in practice it would not work. Assuming you have a couple max-skilled pilots running around (Makes EFT-warrioring much easier), your best option would be the Vulture Command Ship. I was able to get a ship that tanked better than a hulk, ran the 3 mining links, and mined 974m3 per minute. However, lets take a look at these numbers for a sec.

This vulture fits 4 Miner IIs, that pull in 128m3 every 46.5s. It also has 5 T2 mining drones that pull in 312.5m3 per minute (assuming no travel time). And a cargo hold of 345m3. So. If we completely ignore the mining drones, You can run your lasers in groups of 2, emptying your cargo every 45s or you lose ore. Factor the mining drones into that and you have something that'd be very difficult to run even if you dedicate your full attention to it. Now the nice thing about mining in 0.0 with an Orca is that it sits in the POS and boosts. And doesn't move. Ever. That client is minimized for the entire mining op.

So in reality, this ship will actually decrease your yield, since a competent person can run 4-6 hulks with a minimized booster and a hauler by themselves. If you tried to do the same thing with a BC all of your attention would be focused on the BC/CS rather than the miners so your actual yield would decrease.

Great idea though, unfortunately it wouldn't work in practice.

padraig animal
Minmatar
Devil Corp
Rebel Alliance of New Eden
Posted - 2011.07.17 10:39:00 - [23]
 


Tset Tsun
Posted - 2011.07.19 00:28:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: TravisWB
Originally by: Coriz
I love how the three mining booster modules shutdown when the orca warps, dropping the fleet bonus until you land and reactivate them



That's why you need 2 orcas for 4 maxed miners running dual mining boosters II in their lows.

One Orca boosts, the other hauls. The 2nd Orca pilot runs a Hulk until the boost orca is nearly full and then the 2nd Orca pilot swaps out his Hulk for the haul Orca. At station btw, not in space.

That way the fleet never loses boost.

And max mining about gets close to 1800m3.




Exactly what I do,
I have 4 hulks churning away and an Orca boosting and storing.
When I'm ready to unload I pull one of the hulks and load up the 2nd orca.
Back on Ore in no time withe the 4th Hulk and don't loose the boosts.

rodyas
Posted - 2011.07.21 12:34:00 - [25]
 

Hey Guys a BC only supports warfare links and not the mining gang links, its fun to think about putting one on a BC or any ship and how awesome to negate the orca so easily is, but in reality. Orca is only ship that supports gang link modules with the 99% cpu need reduction. A BC only reduces the cpu for warfare links. Of course if you could get 5000 cpu on a BC you could get rid of the orca. or even on a frig come, dream of that a mining gang link on a frig, if gonna dream at all.

ChaoticDemon
Posted - 2011.07.21 16:12:00 - [26]
 

LOL you can fit up to 5 links on a myrm and mining links are still links! I used to use a myrm with the range and cycle mining links and all 3 shield links. Although need lows as all coprocessor 2's mid's 4 command processors

Originally by: rodyas
Hey Guys a BC only supports warfare links and not the mining gang links, its fun to think about putting one on a BC or any ship and how awesome to negate the orca so easily is, but in reality. Orca is only ship that supports gang link modules with the 99% cpu need reduction. A BC only reduces the cpu for warfare links. Of course if you could get 5000 cpu on a BC you could get rid of the orca. or even on a frig come, dream of that a mining gang link on a frig, if gonna dream at all.

Bugsy VanHalen
Posted - 2011.07.21 17:50:00 - [27]
 

I currently run an Orca and two hulks when mining. I use the orca to haul. It works out very well.

I know the rule of thumb is anything less than 3 hulks you are better off with another hulk than an ORCA but logistics of hauling gets more complicated.

But what I have been thinking is if you had a pilot with all the mining foreman skills and implant normally associated with an orca pilot but flying a hulk, would you not only lose the benefit of the ganglink modules but keep everything else. I know 3 hulks and a maxed orca will out mine 4 unboosted hulks, but why wold the 4 hulks not be boosted. if one of the 4 hulk pilots had max mining boost skills you should only lose the mild benifit of the gang link modules. Or am I missing something.

Currently my orca pilot can not fly a hulk as ORCA's do not need astrogeology 5 or exuhmers skills.

Dusty Meg
Posted - 2011.07.21 20:28:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Bugsy VanHalen
I currently run an Orca and two hulks when mining. I use the orca to haul. It works out very well.

I know the rule of thumb is anything less than 3 hulks you are better off with another hulk than an ORCA but logistics of hauling gets more complicated.

But what I have been thinking is if you had a pilot with all the mining foreman skills and implant normally associated with an orca pilot but flying a hulk, would you not only lose the benefit of the ganglink modules but keep everything else. I know 3 hulks and a maxed orca will out mine 4 unboosted hulks, but why wold the 4 hulks not be boosted. if one of the 4 hulk pilots had max mining boost skills you should only lose the mild benifit of the gang link modules. Or am I missing something.

Currently my orca pilot can not fly a hulk as ORCA's do not need astrogeology 5 or exuhmers skills.


What you are missing here is the ganglinks are not a mild boost they are a huge boost.

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.22 17:27:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Dusty Meg
Originally by: Bugsy VanHalen
I currently run an Orca and two hulks when mining. I use the orca to haul. It works out very well.

I know the rule of thumb is anything less than 3 hulks you are better off with another hulk than an ORCA but logistics of hauling gets more complicated.

But what I have been thinking is if you had a pilot with all the mining foreman skills and implant normally associated with an orca pilot but flying a hulk, would you not only lose the benefit of the ganglink modules but keep everything else. I know 3 hulks and a maxed orca will out mine 4 unboosted hulks, but why wold the 4 hulks not be boosted. if one of the 4 hulk pilots had max mining boost skills you should only lose the mild benifit of the gang link modules. Or am I missing something.

Currently my orca pilot can not fly a hulk as ORCA's do not need astrogeology 5 or exuhmers skills.


What you are missing here is the ganglinks are not a mild boost they are a huge boost.


Yeah but when people do the calculation they often leave out the fact that you can put the mining foreman mindlink on one of the hulk pilots.

Admiral Rufus
Posted - 2011.07.27 14:38:00 - [30]
 

I use my orca as a mobile base, i tend to run more combat orientated links in it as well as its awesome for highsec wars if you keep the alt in an npc corp, I've recently moved to a wormhole though, the orca came with me and provides me with a safe place to keep my ships and modules without worrying about corp thieves. Personally i love the orca, i challenge you to find a more flexible ship in eve, especially for a nomad such as myself. Think outside the box dude, mining isn't what eve is about anyways, leave the bots to do that


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