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Digital Messiah
Gallente
N7 Corporation
PandaMonium.
Posted - 2011.07.08 19:03:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Digital Messiah on 08/07/2011 20:51:09
I wasn't sure how to best approach this subject. As I have already received confirmation that the issue was being addressed. I have come to the conclusion that something this game changing should simply be addressed sooner. But how much really needs to be changed to balance out hybrid turrets?

Lucky for you I have put together a spreadsheet to show the differences between all "tech 1 and tech 2" Turrets (not missiles). "Tech 1 Turret stats" - "Tech 2 Turret stats" Enjoy and rally here, for a brighter and hybrid friendly future!

My vote goes to fixing turret balance issues and bugs before another ship is introduced. Why make new ships if what we are flying already is broken?

Edit for: Now with tech 2 spreadsheet!

Krixtal Icefluxor
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2011.07.08 19:10:00 - [2]
 


Almost 18 month old Industrial Toon finally stepping into Caldari Battleships.

I have 3 other Toons, one of each race. Fly all 4 racial ships and tried all weaponry.

Hybrids are BORKED !


I did not know what to believe when I started playing the game. But with experience.....my God are they terrible.

I now own a 120+ M ISK Rokh that is relegated to Mission Gas Cloud Harvesting only. That is LITERALLY all it's good for. Laughing


Ein Phantom
Posted - 2011.07.08 19:11:00 - [3]
 

LOOKS LIKE COMPARABLE DPS TO ME

Krixtal Icefluxor
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2011.07.08 19:12:00 - [4]
 


Originally by: Ein Phantom
LOOKS LIKE COMPARABLE DPS TO ME


erm.......Give it's Alpha-Strike a little go-around...........

Alara IonStorm
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.08 19:14:00 - [5]
 

Has anyone noticed that the only reason we say Amarr is on par with Minmatar is Scorch. It is litterally there only saving grace.

Also +1 Balance the game.

Ein Phantom
Posted - 2011.07.08 19:15:00 - [6]
 

All of you *snip* Please keep it civil. Spitfire don't know how to calculate DPS and compare turrets.

Look, a Vindicator won the last Alliance Tournament *snip*

Krixtal Icefluxor
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2011.07.08 19:19:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor on 08/07/2011 19:21:31
Originally by: Ein Phantom
All of you *snip* Please keep it civil. Spitfire don't know how to calculate DPS and compare turrets.

Look, a Vindicator won the last Alliance Tournament *snip*




Have you ever actually USED Hybrids ?? Nuclear Reactors look GREAT on paper, but here comes a little wave............

Speak from EXPERIENCE. PLEASE.

Also, nobody really WON that Alliance Tourney you Fool. It was a publicly admitted farce, that performance with the Vindicator. Are you stupid ?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?Laughing

Last reply to you: for methinks Troll IS Troll.

Takakura Hirohito
Posted - 2011.07.08 19:19:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Takakura Hirohito on 08/07/2011 19:22:51

VERY IMPORTANT CONCEPT: to keep EVE interesting, weapons (and ships) need to be balanced by enhancing their differences. It would be terrible if things were balanced by making them more similar to each other.

An example of intelligently balancing hybrids would be increasing the range on railguns, and increasing the damage and tracking on blasters. We DO NOT want blasters to be tweaked so they become more like pulse lasers or autocannons.

Another example would be decreasing the damage and increasing the rate-of-fire on pulse and beam lasers while increasing the damage and reducing the rate-of-fire on artillery projectile turrets. Lasers should have a high damage output and good range, but very little alpha. Their damage should be quite steady. Conversely, artillery should have moderate damage but outrageous alpha, less DPS but more alpha than they even have now.

Levi Crawford
Posted - 2011.07.08 19:25:00 - [9]
 

Honestly I disapprove of this petition.

Why? Because it's like a petition stating that Flat earth theory is flawed and we need to get rid of it.

Not only should CCP already know this, it should almost be the first thing on their agenda. It scares and saddens me to think a petition like this could actually make a difference -- that would mean somehow CCP isn't convinced enough yet or is actually so incompetent that they think hybrids are ok. Actually, the latest trailer showing a hybrid fleet taking out a laser fleet seems to almost imply that very thing and that we just don't have clever FCs and good interceptor pilots. Crying or Very sad

But seriously, of course hybrids are bad. terribly terribly bad

I like the spreadsheet but unfortunately pure numbers and attributes like that don't tell the whole story. On paper Hybrids don't actually look that bad and that's part of the problem. The problem is real world implementations like the actual ranges most battles are fought at and what 'actual' dps turns out to be once things like range, cap, tracking, speeds, ship bonuses, etc are taken into account.

One good comparison might be to take an comparison of damage inflicted in killmails by these weapons over (say) the past year (scaled of course to the populations of users since so many more will be using other weapons)

Hybrids ... so ... bad ... fix ... please ... please

Ein Phantom
Posted - 2011.07.08 19:25:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Krixtal Icefluxor
Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor on 08/07/2011 19:21:31
Originally by: Ein Phantom
All of you *snip* Please keep it civil. Spitfire don't know how to calculate DPS and compare turrets.

Look, a Vindicator won the last Alliance Tournament *snip*




Have you ever actually USED Hybrids ?? Nuclear Reactors look GREAT on paper, but here comes a little wave............

Speak from EXPERIENCE. PLEASE.

Also, nobody really WON that Alliance Tourney you Fool. It was a publicly admitted farce, that performance with the Vindicator. Are you stupid ?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?Laughing

Last reply to you: for methinks Troll IS Troll.



Hook, line, and sinker. Cool

Atticus Fynch
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.08 19:27:00 - [11]
 

The worst of it is training hybrids only to find out you wasted your training time on useless weapons.

Levi Crawford
Posted - 2011.07.08 19:27:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Levi Crawford on 08/07/2011 19:28:59
Edited by: Levi Crawford on 08/07/2011 19:28:38

Originally by: Ein Phantom
LOOKS LIKE COMPARABLE DPS TO ME


ugh. On paper only.

edit - I fell for it too. ha. How could I have though anyone actually disagreed with this. silly silly me

Krixtal Icefluxor
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2011.07.08 19:31:00 - [13]
 


Originally by: Ein Phantom
[Hook, line, and sinker.


Thank God for Locator Agents and 4 Toons in 4 Empires. Twisted Evil

SilentSkills
Gallente
Tax Evaders Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.08 19:33:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Ein Phantom
All of you *snip* Please keep it civil. Spitfire don't know how to calculate DPS and compare turrets.

Look, a Vindicator won the last Alliance Tournament *snip*



no, but you seem to be quite a fail troll and/or a ******ed kid.

Last AT was rigged.
Also you can't do damage if you can't get to the target. Blasters being the shortest range weapon in the game should be paired with either equal or higher speed boats. Railguns have ****ty dps, and any pvp ship fitted with rails will be gimped due to the heavy fitting requirements, which trumps the ability to fit proper tank/buffer. and usage. Minmatar currently hold the fastest BSes in game, and they are paired with arty/auto-cannons. Auto-cannnons have longer range than blasters, use no cap, and are usually mounted on ships that can outrun a blaster boat. That is a broken mechanic.

While I agree that CCP did a good job with Tier 3 BSes' balance in 1v1, Hyperion vs Abaddon vs Maelstrom, (can't speak for Rokh), they have neglected and gimped the rest of pure gallente ships (not faction mixes) due to VERY tight fitting options. It is very stupid and broken that a megathron needs either faction mods or best named or cpu - implants in order to be fully t2 fitted, while many other Tier 2 BSes have no issue maximizing their bonuses and optimizing their roles.

Argue all you want, I've flown gallente for a while. I know the workarounds to fitting anything my race has to offer, as well as it's limitations

Ein Phantom
Posted - 2011.07.08 19:34:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Krixtal Icefluxor

Originally by: Ein Phantom
[Hook, line, and sinker.


Thank God for Locator Agents and 4 Toons in 4 Empires. Twisted Evil


I DON'T THINK SOMEONE UNDERSTANDS THE POINT OF FORUM ALTS

*WHOOSH*

Krixtal Icefluxor
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2011.07.08 19:34:00 - [16]
 



Oh, hi Atticus. Still signature-linking to my CCP Permanent Hangover Thread ! Very Happy


Kumq uat
Posted - 2011.07.08 19:49:00 - [17]
 

I have all tons of skills in Gallente and Hybrids. By all rights I should kick ass. I did a one on one against a friends Retribution in my Ishkur. He ripped me apart. Tracking on lasers is sick to go with the damage. My blasters on the other hand were borked.

Blasters, for how close you have to get and everything, should be absolute face melters. No real fall off or range but they should kick out incredible damage. Instead they are out classed by projectiles and lasers who have numerous advantages over them. I mean seriously, fix this.

Digital Messiah
Gallente
N7 Corporation
PandaMonium.
Posted - 2011.07.08 19:56:00 - [18]
 

The tracking is almost Identical between blasters and autocannons. The range is the main issue here. For blasters I could see a slight damage mod boost and range increase balancing them out. Rails look more like they are suffering with damage mods. And if you have ever used railguns you could see yourself how little damage they can apply. I could see a cpu requirement decrease and a damage increase balancing out railguns.

All together the main issue here is drastic differences and identical stats in other areas. Hybrid turrets are supposed to be the middle ground. Blasters are like a beat up truck with a lot of horsepower but no torque "it could do a lot if it could get anywhere". Railguns can get everywhere, they just don't have the damage to make it matter.

TL;DR, Hybrids are not the middle ground turret and need to be reviewed drastically.

Atticus Fynch
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.08 20:03:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Krixtal Icefluxor


Oh, hi Atticus. Still signature-linking to my CCP Permanent Hangover Thread ! Very Happy




Hi!Very Happy

Yeah, I thought that post of yours was spot on so I'm keeping it in my sig. Excellent observation IMO.

Kumq uat
Posted - 2011.07.08 20:13:00 - [20]
 

Thing is blasters are supposed to be the face melters. They have not melted a face in quite awhile though.

Dead Bait
Posted - 2011.07.08 20:19:00 - [21]
 

Maybe your looking at it backwards, maybe projectile turrets are too strong.

Atticus Fynch
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.08 20:21:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Dead Bait
Maybe your looking at it backwards, maybe projectile turrets are too strong.


So instead of buffing hybrids, just nerf everything else?


AlleyKat
Gallente
The Unwanted.
Posted - 2011.07.08 20:24:00 - [23]
 

Fix the ships, not the guns they use.




Digital Messiah
Gallente
N7 Corporation
PandaMonium.
Posted - 2011.07.08 20:55:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Digital Messiah on 08/07/2011 20:55:41
Originally by: Atticus Fynch
Originally by: Dead Bait
Maybe your looking at it backwards, maybe projectile turrets are too strong.


So instead of buffing hybrids, just nerf everything else?


Would require more work to do that I think.

And fixing all the gallente ships is slightly unrealistic. Sure they need some serious work done. But it won't fix the problems non ship related with hybrid turrets. And it goes without saying there are ships of every race that need fixing.

AlleyKat
Gallente
The Unwanted.
Posted - 2011.07.08 21:17:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Digital Messiah

And fixing all the gallente ships is slightly unrealistic. Sure they need some serious work done. But it won't fix the problems non ship related with hybrid turrets. And it goes without saying there are ships of every race that need fixing.


Easy - for all ships that were designed for blasters/close range pvp should get web bonus and mwd speed bonus/mass decrease.

That way you could:

Get into range faster and have higher MWD speed.
slow down your opponent so tracking is not a problem.

Then blasters could deal the damage they were originally designed to do prior to the 'speed nerf' AKA 'CCP decided to nerf an entire race of ships and half of another, nerf'

Did I miss anything?

AK

AMatay
Posted - 2011.07.08 21:50:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: AlleyKat
Originally by: Digital Messiah

And fixing all the gallente ships is slightly unrealistic. Sure they need some serious work done. But it won't fix the problems non ship related with hybrid turrets. And it goes without saying there are ships of every race that need fixing.


Easy - for all ships that were designed for blasters/close range pvp should get web bonus and mwd speed bonus/mass decrease.

That way you could:

Get into range faster and have higher MWD speed.
slow down your opponent so tracking is not a problem.

Then blasters could deal the damage they were originally designed to do prior to the 'speed nerf' AKA 'CCP decided to nerf an entire race of ships and half of another, nerf'

Did I miss anything?

AK

I agree the real problem with hybrid weapons, well blasters anyway, is that it is very very difficult to maintain a range at which u can use them,. for 1 your inside scramble range so you cant use mwd to move any closer, two gallente ships are very slow and armor tanked which makes them even slower and less agile. and 3 if your not at that point blank range your weapons do next to no damage so it is very easy for other ships to kite a blaster boat

Jones Bones
Burning Napalm
Posted - 2011.07.08 22:02:00 - [27]
 

Blasters are fine. Fix bad pilots.

The only thing you could possible argue for is even better tracking.

Ninevite
Posted - 2011.07.08 22:04:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Ninevite on 08/07/2011 22:05:10
Please fix hybrid turrets. Giving armor tanked (slow) ships the shortest range weapon in the game makes no sense. Railguns are so useless for PvP I don't even have to explain them. Making all Gallente ships faster would probably work well too.

Also, please fix projectile turrets by nerfing them. The fact that they can work well with so many builds means they are broken. No other weapon system in the game is as versatile and useful.

Wa'roun
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.07.08 22:08:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Wa''roun on 08/07/2011 22:09:15
Originally by: Kumq uat
I have all tons of skills in Gallente and Hybrids. By all rights I should kick ass. I did a one on one against a friends Retribution in my Ishkur. He ripped me apart. Tracking on lasers is sick to go with the damage. My blasters on the other hand were borked.

Blasters, for how close you have to get and everything, should be absolute face melters. No real fall off or range but they should kick out incredible damage. Instead they are out classed by projectiles and lasers who have numerous advantages over them. I mean seriously, fix this.



Did you fit a web and scram? What level drone skills?
T2 blasters? Meta 4? Faction or T2 ammo?
TD?

So many unknowns here.

SilentSkills
Gallente
Tax Evaders Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.08 22:10:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: SilentSkills on 08/07/2011 22:10:44
Originally by: Wa'roun
Edited by: Wa''roun on 08/07/2011 22:09:15
Originally by: Kumq uat
I have all tons of skills in Gallente and Hybrids. By all rights I should kick ass. I did a one on one against a friends Retribution in my Ishkur. He ripped me apart. Tracking on lasers is sick to go with the damage. My blasters on the other hand were borked.

Blasters, for how close you have to get and everything, should be absolute face melters. No real fall off or range but they should kick out incredible damage. Instead they are out classed by projectiles and lasers who have numerous advantages over them. I mean seriously, fix this.



Did you fit a web and scram? What level drone skills?



My Ishkur > Retri
T2 blasters? Meta 4? Faction or T2 ammo?
TD?

So many unknowns here.

one word, neut, and overheat, use your imagination.


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