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Serene Repose
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2011.07.08 04:11:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Serene Repose on 08/07/2011 04:13:09
I been playing games for more than half a century (Sounds like a long time, eh?) The first game I can recall is Candyland. Chutes and Ladders...you go back a ways if you played these as a child...all the way up to Chess. Of course, baseball, basketball...games...don't get me started on card games.

For someone like me, computer/video games are an awesome culmination. It's really hard to believe how things have progressed into virtually another dimension in the short while I've been alive. EVE is quintessential in this progression. It's truly historic in its place in the history of games.

During the recent brouhaha I couldn't help but be constantly aware of some things. Firstly, I see a game as a matrix of conditions and obstacles some other person (people) have set up and dared me to get around or solve. True, I play EVE, but I'm also playing EVE's creators - whom we affectionately call "devs" This is never lost on me.

That being the case, I find it difficult to imagine players of a game telling the developers of the game what to present. I can see certain things being discussed among players, but to me the game is strictly the purview of the game designer(s). It's their challenge to me. Were I to present a challenge to them, I'd create a game and dare them to crack it.

I really can't get behind even suggesting to a designer what to add or subtract from a game...unless perhaps if I'm asked. Even then it would be like untying Gordian's Knot. Where do you begin? How can you honestly differentiate "better" from "easier for me to crack?"

Secondly, the idea of holding a game designer hostage for the design is pretty alien to me. If I ever found a game too loose, or too easy, or with arbitrary elements that make no sense, or don't elicit challenge, I simply don't play it. The idea that this is the only game in town has nothing to do with it.

Thirdly, this recent uproar reminded me constantly of when the Beatles broke up. People actually insisted the Beatles betrayed them personally for not staying together, as though they were obligated in some way. "You can't go your own way, and do what you wish with what is yours, cause you owe me." It was insane.

Final note: Chess is the only true PvP game. If you think you're PvP-ing in EVE, you're as nuts as a Beatles fan!









Kalestia Barrak
Posted - 2011.07.08 04:40:00 - [2]
 

"Opinions are like _____, everyone has one."

Games fill a variety of roles, and are played for a variety of reasons, that are different to everyone. Some for relaxation, escapism, the challenge, story, etc. Within those myriad of reasons, there's a exponentially larger amount of desires and wants people would no doubt love to see out of their perfect game.

EVE is a great many things to many people. For many, it's part of them. EVE is more than a game to many. It has history, an ongoing story. There are events and occurances and matches made and broken and lost that will never again be repeated. Amongst all of that developes a bond that players feel that this is not just their game, this is a world that they helped create and have a stake in. And with that stake (along with their subscription) comes the notion that they have a say as well.

It is no doubt true that the developer has the final say in the design. It is, after all, his/her creative work, and we, as players, participate at their leisure. Perhaps more importantly, EVE exists as a product of a company, and we all reserve the right to freely choose to pay for this product or not (something I think often gets lost in the emotional investment many of us have.) However, I do not think any developer, of any game, is somehow sacrosanct and isolated from criticism, feedback, or opinion. For at the end of the day there are simply too many people who see promise and potential, and have enjoyed what was delivered thus far, to simply accept "take it or leave it" as the modus operandi and simply accept come what may of the game.

After all, being if I were a game designer, I'd want that sort of feedback and critique, since the very model of an MMO surrenders the game hostage to it's player base, as it's their dollars that decide if the game succeeds or fails. Hearing that feedback can be key to altering what may have been a flawed experience into a popular pastime.

Caghji
Posted - 2011.07.08 04:40:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Caghji on 08/07/2011 05:54:03
Edited by: Caghji on 08/07/2011 04:42:06
Originally by: Serene Repose
Edited by: Serene Repose on 08/07/2011 04:13:09
I been playing games for more than half a century (Sounds like a long time, eh?) The first game I can recall is Candyland. Chutes and Ladders...you go back a ways if you played these as a child...all the way up to Chess. Of course, baseball, basketball...games...don't get me started on card games.

For someone like me, computer/video games are an awesome culmination. It's really hard to believe how things have progressed into virtually another dimension in the short while I've been alive. EVE is quintessential in this progression. It's truly historic in its place in the history of games.

During the recent brouhaha I couldn't help but be constantly aware of some things. Firstly, I see a game as a matrix of conditions and obstacles some other person (people) have set up and dared me to get around or solve. True, I play EVE, but I'm also playing EVE's creators - whom we affectionately call "devs" This is never lost on me.

That being the case, I find it difficult to imagine players of a game telling the developers of the game what to present. I can see certain things being discussed among players, but to me the game is strictly the purview of the game designer(s). It's their challenge to me. Were I to present a challenge to them, I'd create a game and dare them to crack it.

I really can't get behind even suggesting to a designer what to add or subtract from a game...unless perhaps if I'm asked. Even then it would be like untying Gordian's Knot. Where do you begin? How can you honestly differentiate "better" from "easier for me to crack?"

Secondly, the idea of holding a game designer hostage for the design is pretty alien to me. If I ever found a game too loose, or too easy, or with arbitrary elements that make no sense, or don't elicit challenge, I simply don't play it. The idea that this is the only game in town has nothing to do with it.

Thirdly, this recent uproar reminded me constantly of when the Beatles broke up. People actually insisted the Beatles betrayed them personally for not staying together, as though they were obligated in some way. "You can't go your own way, and do what you wish with what is yours, cause you owe me." It was insane.

Final note: Chess is the only true PvP game. If you think you're PvP-ing in EVE, you're as nuts as a Beatles fan!











Nice Post ………….but I completely disagree with you because of one major aspect.

EVE is a sandbox – that is a given environment that allows us to make up the actions

You post is far to 2 dimensional to the eve I know, love and ‘play’

If EvE was purely ‘ratting’ and running missions - or direct PvP ship fights – I would agree with you

But it is far more than ‘just that’

I have been playing EvE for 4 years – I live in low sec - I run my own corp – I have killed no one in that time and I very rarely if ever run missions.
Instead I have built up a large industrial corp that now expands across an entire region. I deal with other players both red and blue and I use ‘spheres of influence’ to survive and be successful and profitable

My ‘power’ has grown as I use my influence to get others to do what is best for me.

Underpinning the EvE ‘game’ for me was the EvE economy – that is relying in the end on others to buy the materials and ships I build.

The confusion over Golden Bullets/ships that were not built by industrial players like myself WAS a game breaker for me.

I would take any opportunity to plead with the devs not to do it – it would end the game of EvE as I know it – and I would ‘very likely ‘ drop from the game

You mention in your post various games like chess – to me the possible changes would have amounted to introducing dice into chess – maybe chess would be more fun with a ‘random’ dice element in it – I don’t know – what I do know is that it would be a very different ‘chess game

LLoyd Thomson
Posted - 2011.07.08 04:41:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Serene Repose

Final note: Chess is the only true PvP game. If you think you're PvP-ing in EVE, you're as nuts as a Beatles fan!

Would you still play chess, if they'd introduce rebuys?

Serene Repose
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2011.07.08 06:41:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: LLoyd Thomson
Originally by: Serene Repose

Final note: Chess is the only true PvP game. If you think you're PvP-ing in EVE, you're as nuts as a Beatles fan!

Would you still play chess, if they'd introduce rebuys?


Then, it wouldn't be chess.

The point about the sandbox...yeah, very true. However, industrial/marketing empire...a core facet designed into the game. It's playing the game, in other words. No doubt, there's a lot of variety.

I'm saying...regardless of my personal wishes, it's CCP's game. If anyone wants a game "like" it, but different, notepad ships with every version of Windows. Have at it.

The question up for debate would be therefore: From whence arises this player demand input? As far as chess...wouldn't having two queens instead of one be a "good" idea to a lot of people?

Albeit - CCP does solicit input from players. They also play themselves. Still, I'm not playing me in my game I designed. I'm playing them in their game they designed. Also, most of the great ideas players have offered in this spamfest of late purely suck. If they aren't incongruous, or unworkable, they're completely arbitrary meeting an imagined desire which would probably disappear once puberty is fully achieved (barring arrested development.)

What else can I ramble about? I want to see CCP's idea of a computer game. If any players have their own ideas, go ahead and knock out that game, let us know about it and I'm sure quite a few will give it a try. I'm not interested in EVE's Players (Inc.) idea of a game otherwise. Sue me.

(Okay, I have a weak backhand I make up for by throwing my racket and pulling my hair!)


Kalestia Barrak
Posted - 2011.07.08 06:49:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Serene Repose
I'm not interested in EVE's Players (Inc.) idea of a game otherwise. Sue me.


So what brings you to the discussion forums?

Pok Nibin
Amarr
Posted - 2011.07.08 06:54:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Kalestia Barrak
Originally by: Serene Repose
I'm not interested in EVE's Players (Inc.) idea of a game otherwise. Sue me.


So what brings you to the discussion forums?


I'm majoring in aberrant psych and figured I could use the field trip.

LLoyd Thomson
Posted - 2011.07.08 07:06:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Serene Repose
Originally by: LLoyd Thomson
Would you still play chess, if they'd introduce rebuys?


Then, it wouldn't be chess.
And it wouldn't be EVE Online either without the mass protests by people that care about this game, you 50+ wannabe.
Without the 'spamfest' we would have golden ammo by now, or at least a golden ship.

RabC Nesbitt
Posted - 2011.07.08 07:13:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Serene Repose
Chess is the only true PvP game. If you think you're PvP-ing in EVE, you're as nuts as a Beatles fan!



+1

Serene Repose
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2011.07.08 08:36:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: LLoyd Thomson
Originally by: Serene Repose
Originally by: LLoyd Thomson
Would you still play chess, if they'd introduce rebuys?


Then, it wouldn't be chess.
And it wouldn't be EVE Online either without the mass protests by people that care about this game, you 50+ wannabe.
Without the 'spamfest' we would have golden ammo by now, or at least a golden ship.


I have no idea what a 50+ wannabe is, but I do sense you have trouble following a line of thought. That you know what a 50+ wannabe is speaks volumes, however.

Gwenywell Shumuku
Posted - 2011.07.08 09:01:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Serene Repose
Originally by: LLoyd Thomson
Originally by: Serene Repose
Originally by: LLoyd Thomson
Would you still play chess, if they'd introduce rebuys?


Then, it wouldn't be chess.
And it wouldn't be EVE Online either without the mass protests by people that care about this game, you 50+ wannabe.
Without the 'spamfest' we would have golden ammo by now, or at least a golden ship.


I have no idea what a 50+ wannabe is, but I do sense you have trouble following a line of thought. That you know what a 50+ wannabe is speaks volumes, however.



I pity you. 50+ and not able to follow the simple line of thought of YOUR OWN ANSWER. Sad, really sad. EVE Online was a certain game for 8 years, with MT its not anymore. If you can't follow this argument, then your 50+ years are worth nothing.
Wisdom comes with age, but age alone doesn't grant wisdom.

Rykuss
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.08 09:03:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: LLoyd Thomson
Without the 'spamfest' we would have golden ammo by now, or at least a golden ship.


No we wouldn't have, the whole thing was nothing more than mass hysteria coupled with a mob rule mentality. The same people are still making threads wanting CCP to remove Incarna, like that's going to happen. Rolling Eyes

Gwenywell Shumuku
Posted - 2011.07.08 09:05:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Rykuss
Originally by: LLoyd Thomson
Without the 'spamfest' we would have golden ammo by now, or at least a golden ship.


No we wouldn't have, the whole thing was nothing more than mass hysteria coupled with a mob rule mentality. The same people are still making threads wanting CCP to remove Incarna, like that's going to happen. Rolling Eyes


Wrong, we would have the scorpion in the shop that would totally bypass the market. We also would have plex/aur for remap. Your turn.

Rykuss
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.08 09:14:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Gwenywell Shumuku
Originally by: Rykuss
Originally by: LLoyd Thomson
Without the 'spamfest' we would have golden ammo by now, or at least a golden ship.


No we wouldn't have, the whole thing was nothing more than mass hysteria coupled with a mob rule mentality. The same people are still making threads wanting CCP to remove Incarna, like that's going to happen. Rolling Eyes


Wrong, we would have the scorpion in the shop that would totally bypass the market. We also would have plex/aur for remap. Your turn.


Really? As I recall, that issue was resolved well before the the riots and forum spamfest. I was in the initial thread arguing against the proposal. Is your memory that short or do you believe anything and everything typed in all caps?

Gwenywell Shumuku
Posted - 2011.07.08 09:17:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Gwenywell Shumuku on 08/07/2011 09:18:53
Originally by: Rykuss
Originally by: Gwenywell Shumuku
Originally by: Rykuss
Originally by: LLoyd Thomson
Without the 'spamfest' we would have golden ammo by now, or at least a golden ship.


No we wouldn't have, the whole thing was nothing more than mass hysteria coupled with a mob rule mentality. The same people are still making threads wanting CCP to remove Incarna, like that's going to happen. Rolling Eyes


Wrong, we would have the scorpion in the shop that would totally bypass the market. We also would have plex/aur for remap. Your turn.


Really? As I recall, that issue was resolved well before the the riots and forum spamfest. I was in the initial thread arguing against the proposal. Is your memory that short or do you believe anything and everything typed in all caps?


It seems you have a selective memory going here. If everyone would behave like you, aka not saying anything, yes we would have had plex/remap already last autumn, and its STILL not off the table (read some interviews from Zulu).
Same goes for the Scorpion, even the CSM agreed to it (/facepalm), when the community got wind of it it was stopped.

Now, tell me WHO did it? You? By beeing silent and accepting everything? No...and thats why you should just be a bit less condecending talking about the passionate ppl who call BS on CCP if things are going wrong.

You are benefiting from it right now, never forget that.

Rykuss
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.08 10:02:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Rykuss on 08/07/2011 10:19:51
Originally by: Gwenywell Shumuku
It seems you have a selective memory going here. If everyone would behave like you, aka not saying anything, yes we would have had plex/remap already last autumn, and its STILL not off the table (read some interviews from Zulu).
Same goes for the Scorpion, even the CSM agreed to it (/facepalm), when the community got wind of it it was stopped.

Now, tell me WHO did it? You? By beeing silent and accepting everything? No...and thats why you should just be a bit less condecending talking about the passionate ppl who call BS on CCP if things are going wrong.

You are benefiting from it right now, never forget that.


Uh, yeah I did, actually alongside Tippia and others.

The only thing you succeeded in doing, was burying any relevant thread with more of your QQ threads. You didn't do a damn thing for me otherwise, although you'd like to think you did apparently. I expressed my opposition to the scorpion and other economy breaking items in the initial thread alongside Tippia and others. CCP Zynfandel said that they would hold off on it until it could be properly implemented, requiring a trade-in. It was settled there and then in a thread I'm still trying to find, thanks to the spamfest.

It was after that that the tinfoil hattery and (leaked memo) outright insanity ensued, at which point I bowed out. It's one thing to express your concerns to the devs and quite another to do what you people did. Call it a protest, call it whatever the hell you want but don't tell me that because I didn't join up that I didn't do anything.

Edit: Here's your damn link.

Caghji
Posted - 2011.07.08 10:07:00 - [17]
 



Quote:
The point about the sandbox...yeah, very true. However, industrial/marketing empire...a core facet designed into the game. It's playing the game, in other words. No doubt, there's a lot of variety.



No

U obviously misunderstand the 'sandbox' term

sandbox is not a game with lots and lots (and lots and lots) of variables -

A sandbox game is an environment given to the players to do with however they please

yes there are rules

yes there are (many many) variables - but the variables don't in themselves make the game a sandbox

what truly makes it a 'sandbox' game is how you interact with other players in that environment -

if for example you replaced all the players apart from your 'one' character with NPC and turned the game into a space sim city with guns sort of game - then it would no longer be a sandbox game (it might be a 'cool' game but not a sandbox)

What makes EvE a sandbox game is the way ALL players are given the tools and how they 'interact' with OTHER players - this is where game developers have limited to no effect - they can stop certain 'extreme griefing game play' - but something that is unique to EvE is that the devs actually allow players to do things in EvE sandbox that other games stop/prevent - this is ofc part of the appeal of EvE to EvE players

further u missed my point above about my example of my industrial empire

The real 'game skill' for me is not being able to figure out the market variables (there are so many tools online to help tbh there is not much skill needed) instead it is how I have interacted with the players around me in the region - I have had a clear 'gameplan' and I have manipulated, befriended and at times miscalculated and died at the hands of the locals......

it is not whether the locals cap fleet could hot drop my 'infrastructure' and kill it - it is how I have manipulated through player convo, diplomacy and INTEL that I have (so far) secured the my assets

however in the key game mechanic which makes me move forward is that what my corp has to offer to those around me via the market - materials and ships - Golden bullets/ships would have damaged this .....

Reading your posts it would appear you have not experienced (much) of this 'political' aspect of the 'game'.........

Regards

Caghji

Avaleric
Amarr
SC Special Circumstances
Posted - 2011.07.08 10:08:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Serene Repose
Edited by: Serene Repose on 08/07/2011 04:13:09

Final note: Chess is the only true PvP game. If you think you're PvP-ing in EVE, you're as nuts as a Beatles fan!




What about Russian Roulette..?


 

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