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Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
Butterfly Effect Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.13 10:56:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Deviana Sevidon on 13/08/2011 10:58:10
Please keep in mind that the Gallente did not come directly from France, but from a world in the Tau Ceti system with apparently french speaking colonists. This alone could mean people not onle from France immigrated there but also from Canada, Switzerland as well as a number of african and caribean nations.

Also while french was most likely the primary language on Tau Ceti over time certainly other people immigrated there, not neccessarily all speaking french as their primary language, at least in the first generation.

Some time after that people from Tau Ceti colonised a world in the New Eden system, with the known history of a collapse after the EVE gate shut down, the colony becoming isolated and going through a dark age with all of their technology lost. Without access to audio and video recording the pronounciation of words begins to change from region to region.

Much later the Gallente came in contact with the Caldari, while both are now hostile to each other they worked together in the first expansion of the federation. So there would a caldari influence in the gallentean language and a gallentean influence in the caldari language.

I don't think anyone speaking french today could understand a single word of gallentean.

Artabanus
Posted - 2011.08.13 10:58:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Artabanus on 13/08/2011 10:59:20
Originally by: Wyke Mossari

@Epsulahm/Artabanus

I'm rather taken back by your tone, you seem willing and able to make a valuable contribution but I think you are allowing some pasted grudge or slight against Roga to overwhelm the ideas you're expressing.

You called Roga ideas preposterous then go on to establish which seem to me to be the same or similar ideas expressed with a different set of examples, mixed in with a lot of unnecessary invective.




No tone intended toward Roga or anyone for that matter; however, the manner in which statements made have been pedantic in tone. If one is going to engage in showy displays of knowledge, then it best to know what one is talking about. Making dogmatic statements and basing opinions on matters based on a documentary from Netflix, at least imho, is not solid reasoning.

In what way is my statement the same as Roga? He claimed that "Cajun" and "Afrikaan" are African-based languages. I made the case that they were not. He claimed that American English is a continuation of African languages and dialects. I made the case that, although the English language may have absorbed some African influences in the US, it most certainly is not an African language. And the reason for my bringing this up was to draw a comparison in what may have happened or may be happening to the Minmatar within the Amarr Empire.

With regard to the 'invection'...I am not well-versed in EVE lore, probably not as much as Roga, or the rest of folks here on the Forums. However, when it comes to the history of our real world, I think it is important to be sure of what we say when we say it. Otherwise we become either unwilling victims of perpetrators of misinformation. Misinformation is a dangerous tool. So my rancor is not necessarily against Roga - and I apologize to you Roga for offending you - my tone is directed towards inaccurate information.

With regards to EVE...as I mentioned earlier, it is a sci-fi/fantasy world, so anything is possible. Gallente~French/Romance/Greek, Amarr~Persian/Arab, etc., or even that EVE is based on WWII-era scenario, all that I can accept, and do. As I said, I'm not an expert in EVE lore, so those statements may be true. However, some of the statements made regarding American English, of Afrikaans, or the "Aryans" were not as accurate as they needed to be.

Art

Artabanus
Posted - 2011.08.13 11:05:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Artabanus on 13/08/2011 11:10:06
Edited by: Artabanus on 13/08/2011 11:09:15
Edited by: Artabanus on 13/08/2011 11:06:08
One more thing...and in order to change the direction of the conversation...I just read the last post (the one before my response, Deviana Sevidon), and that seems to me to be the true direction of the EVE story...it's fictional, and CCP and its writers seemed to me to have laid down the foundation of the story...that millions of humans came through the EVE gate and got stuck. The names of systems and planets and constellations probably do have a relation to the past, but with over 15,000 years of time passing, as well as distance from the home world and each other, would not these words and languages change? What resulted may most likely not even be recognizable to supposed speakers of the same language from thousands of years prior.

Art

Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.13 14:26:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 14/08/2011 18:53:46

@Epsulahm/Artabanus

I can't speak for Roga directly, but I will say what I understood from his words, which is likely influenced by past discussions on this subject with Roga and others.

Also this is not academia so citations get patchy and as a game mystery many RL concepts take on semantics modified through a lens of semi-canon ideas that adapt over time so it helps to take things a little less literally than would be used in RL.

The reference to PIE is based on past investigations into etymology of New Eden language predominantly nouns. This PIE usage may be accidental based on the languages of CCP staffs or deliberate. I consider the evidence is now quite strong that this is at least in part deliberate. I'm sure that Roga's comments regard that was not a conclusion drawn from statements in this thread but serving as c.f to it's discussion elsewhere. Other Proto-Languages may be present in EVE but I've not found evidence of that.

I see the real life examples used as analogies likely to be widely understood rather than specific examples reflected directly in EVE canon.

The common idea I see in both yours and Roga contribution is the process of cross fertilisation or contamination between languages and culture. I use those two words quite deliberately in the sense that they may be seen differently by the two or more parties involved, in much the same way you highlighted regarding being forced by the dominant culture or embrace by the subjugated culture.

It is that underlying idea I see, which is important in my mind.

To consider an in canon example, the Starkmanir, Nefatar and Amatar. As Minmatar tribes, the Starkmanir and Nefatar have a connected origin and it seems likely they could communicate directly I suspect they would differ by at least dialect. After they were conquered and defected respectively both would be influenced by the language and culture of the Amarr. We see this in the emergent Amatar culture. The storyline however suggests the isolation of the Starkmanir to protect their culture and they were probably more able to maintain their heritage and cultural distinctiveness, while at the same time maintaining much in common with the rest of the Minmatar when they return. The Nefatar culture by comparison will have diverged into Amatar and Nefatar. The former being closer to Amarr language and culture and the latter more likely to be a creole but in the general sense rather than one based on any specific RL creole.

Stepping back slightly, I actually consider the Minmatar, at least in part, to be inspired by the Kurgan Hypothesis which is also expanded else where in this section and which might hopefully help place some of this in context.

--edited for grammar & clarity--

Artabanus
Posted - 2011.08.13 15:34:00 - [35]
 

Interesting theory. Although it is also quite possible that no Earth historical scenarios were utilized as a model. In other words, perhaps the game designers simply produced a "starting point" of their own devising, and extrapolated from there without any conscientious attention to patterns that emerged on Earth, but rather, that which has emerged from the fictional world itself. While it surely is true that the designers are most definitely experts in their respective fields, it is also quite possible and/or probable that attention to all the minutae of the backstory were not completely thought through from beginning to end. And so the patterns that have now emerged from EVE, while appearing to mimic some pattern that emerged on Earth, may simply be one possible development in the evolution of the EVE story. OR...perhaps there was some intent and design to copy some specific detail of human history on Earth. I think it is more likely that the storyline is unique and has developed and evolved based on the story's own internal structure and circumstances. While some details of human history on Earth may have influenced the storyline to a greater or lesser degree, the "plot" (if we can use this word loosely) seems to be purely "original" in the sense that it is its own entity in its own right.

However, we are probably all right and all wrong, and it is possible and probable that speculation of this nature will continue ad infinitum, as it is advantagous for the EVE universe creators to keep as mysterious as possible any and all details that can remain as such. In this way, they can attract and retain as many of us as they can. That's what I would do, at least. Because it seems to work for the story.

Art

Roga Dracor
Caldari
Mental Disorders Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.14 18:37:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Roga Dracor on 15/08/2011 02:41:27
I had meant not to reply in this thread again. As Wyke says, you either "get it", or you don't. But I just can't resist, not out of any spite or malice, simply out of a need to express what I see. Which, I will admit, has not been clear.

Aryanism is real, whether those who subscribe to it are misguided or not. I see a growing trend, at least in the U.S., to ignore reality and paint a new picture with rose tinted hues. Social Democracy at it's finest(sarcasm). Just because you don't believe in Aryanism, doesn't make it a fairy tale. Millions of people believe themselves to be "Aryans", White Brotherhood, ***, Aryan Nation, ASL.. Look it up, it is real. Your personal beliefs simply make you naive, in my opinion.

I am not an Aryan, though I am sure there is some of that bloodline running in my veins. I am a mutt, like most Americans. I am 1/4 AmerInd of the Miamiki Nation, Miami Indian, which most social historians place as migrant natives of Mexico, they introduced Maize (Corn) to the area I reside in. I am not prejudiced beyond my dislike of most people on general principles.

Whether you like it or not, Minmatar cultural makeup is "Aryan".. I always thought it a shot from the devs at the Racism of the Third Reich.. Much akin to Jesse Owens sweeping the field events in the ?1939? Olympics.. And yes, Wyke, Creole was the term I was really looking for, not Cajun.. Nothing in this world is truely original anymore, Art. You can dismiss what I say, as many dismissed cosmologies, etymology, ancient myth and the Ascended Masters.. Time will tell....

Roga Dracor
Caldari
Mental Disorders Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.14 19:04:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Roga Dracor on 14/08/2011 19:06:13
And finally, yes, the transmigration of language and culture was the point I was trying to highlight. If you took someone from urban London, and someone from Urban East L.A., the language though still intelligable after a couple hundred years, would likely not be after 1000 years, though BOTH might be considered "English". Owner\Slave societies ARE influenced by the will of the SLAVE to retain some measure of identity. Many AmerInds and African Americans had no choice but to give up the culture, the Puritan attitude in America ASSURED it.

But, still we see the influence of BOTH these cultures strongly entrenched in our society. Terms and identities like papoose, mojo, warpath, thunderbird, Mississippi, Indiana, voodoo, Blues, Ragtime, etc., etc., et al..

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.08.14 20:53:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 14/08/2011 21:07:55
Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 14/08/2011 21:00:38

Everyone here is arguing really passionately, in extremely weird terms, about. . .very little.

Roga has some ideas about language. Artabanus doesn't like these ideas, and makes good points in counterpoint, but does it in a condescending way. Roga then flips out and starts talking about Aryanism?? I can't even follow.

I do admit, there is some just deserts in seeing Roga flip out at being condescended to. Talk about dishing it but not being able to take it. That said, I would like to see a Fiction forum without arrogance. I think in this forum, people tend to develop their own pet theories, then they take these theories to be true, and start getting arrogant at people who do not see the "truth" to what came out of their own mind and imagination. The only people here who has any right to be arrogant about their knowledge of the EVE story are Dropbear, Tony G, and other CCP devs, and so far they have shown themselves to actually be quite cordial and encouraging.

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.08.14 21:27:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 14/08/2011 21:41:24


Originally by: Roga Dracor
I had meant not to reply in this thread again. As Wyke says, you either "get it", or you don't. But I just can't resist, not out of any spite or malice, simply out of a need to express what I see. Which, I will admit, has not been clear.

Aryanism is real, whether those who subscribe to it are misguided or not. I see a growing trend, at least in the U.S., to ignore reality and paint a new picture with rose tinted hues. Social Democracy at it's finest(sarcasm). Just because you don't believe in Aryanism, doesn't make it a fairy tale. Millions of people believe themselves to be "Aryans", White Brotherhood, ***, Aryan Nation, ASL.. Look it up, it is real. Your personal beliefs simply make you naive, in my opinion.

I am not an Aryan, though I am sure there is some of that bloodline running in my veins. I am a mutt, like most Americans. I am 1/4 AmerInd of the Miamiki Nation, Miami Indian, which most social historians place as migrant natives of Mexico, they introduced Maize (Corn) to the area I reside in. I am not prejudiced beyond my dislike of most people on general principles.

Whether you like it or not, Minmatar cultural makeup is "Aryan".. I always thought it a shot from the devs at the Racism of the Third Reich.. Much akin to Jesse Owens sweeping the field events in the ?1939? Olympics.. And yes, Wyke, Creole was the term I was really looking for, not Cajun.. Nothing in this world is truely original anymore, Art. You can dismiss what I say, as many dismissed cosmologies, etymology, ancient myth and the Awakened Masters.. Time will tell....



I can't let this be.

"Aryanism," as you are describing it, is a Germanic concept rooted in 19th century scientific racism. Nordic only equals "Aryan" from a distinctly non-Nordic perspective. Nordic people, with the exception of some small minority influenced by. . .those other guys. . .do not refer to themself as "Aryan." So to say that the Minmatar culture is "Aryan" is silly.

The rest of your post is beyond something the EVE Fiction forums can tackle, but, uh. . .

So no, Aryanism is not real. Or at least no more real than phrenology and Lamarckian evolution. The people on Earth with the strongest claim to actual descent from Aryan tribes and Aryan culture are those with ethnic roots in India and Persia. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryan_migration)

So, if you want to argue that there is an EVE culture that is "Aryan," you should be arguing it's the Amarr.


Roga Dracor
Caldari
Mental Disorders Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.15 01:25:00 - [40]
 

Honestly, I am not "flipping out". I am not trying to be arrogant. I am trying to express ideas that I see reflected in the storyline. Everyone loves to tell me I am wrong, but, brings no more than rhetoric and inuendo to argue by. You tell me Aryan has absolutely no bearing, that it is a fantasy of the 19th century that any intelligent human being discards with little thought on the matter.

Yet, you have a race of obvious non caucasian ethnicity running around naming thier ships Sleipners, their drones Berserkers, and carrying "Nordic" pride to the universe. Yet, my ideas are idiotic, ok..

I wish I had ignored the obvious trolls in this forum, but, I didn't. I will turn your own arguments on you, show me actual physical PROOF I am wrong.. Razz

I have more self control than you think. I dismiss your taunts, I ignore your feeble attempts to be witty. Honestly, EC, what have you added to the discussions beyond flippancy and arrogant dismissal, yourself?

Roga Dracor
Caldari
Mental Disorders Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.15 01:36:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Roga Dracor on 15/08/2011 01:43:14
Would you have told Adolf ****** his ideas were idiotic drivel? I doubt it. Aryan supremacy was the keynote he used to drive the entire world to war. Is that fantasy too? Several million Jews were exterminated on the "false premise" of "Aryanism". Again that must have been a fantasy that they only taught in primary schools. Those of you who were taught in a college learned the "truth", didn't you?Wink

Oh, and who's to say I am not arguing that as well? Theosophy..

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.08.15 01:39:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 15/08/2011 01:42:25

Originally by: Roga Dracor
Would you have told Adolf ****** his ideas were idiotic drivel? I doubt it. Aryan supremacy was the keynote he used to drive the entire world to war. Is that fantasy too? Several million Jews were exterminated on the "false premise" of "Aryanism". Again that must have been a fantasy that they only taught in primary schools. Those of you who were taught in a college learned the "truth", didn't you?Wink


Man, what is your damage. Here, read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_race

And way to simultaneously act intellectually superior, promote a discredited 19th century ideology, and ridicule a presumed college education all in one fell swoop.


edit to add:

Quote:
Would you have told Adolf ****** his ideas were idiotic drivel?


Yes, I would.

I cannot believe I am having this discussion. In the future, when you start acting like you're some well educated, cosmopolitan guy when you condescend to someone in some future EVE fiction argument, I'm just going to point back to this thread.

Roga Dracor
Caldari
Mental Disorders Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.15 01:48:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: Roga Dracor on 15/08/2011 02:26:29
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 14/08/2011 21:41:24

I can't let this be.




Arrogance is being thrown both ways, now.. You will not be happy until I concede to your arguments, which are ineffective, at best.. Likely, had you made such a statement to the individual in question, you would be a faint or forgotten memory. Instead of attacking my ideas with contrary evidence,you stoop to personal attacks in an attempt to bait me into anger. You're not worth it.

And as to being a well educated, Cosmopolitan guy, that's funny, I don't consider myself anything like that. I think I just made the opposite assertion. If you knew me in RL, I really am not that bad. I have been jaded by the contemptuous arrogance of those who have chosen to interact with me in this game. The assumptions and prejudgements you bring to the table about me are absurd. It is the misconstruing of my intentions and motivations that I take exception to.

You argue the REAL world can't subscribe to my ideas because that's the way it really was, and it was quite embarrasing to some nations, who now choose to move on, but, it's fiction, so any real world analogies can't be in play in a semi authentic manner that doesn't reflect the truth as you see it? Do I have it straight? I am not that smart, please, couch it in layman's terms, so my feeble brain can understand.Laughing

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.08.15 02:56:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Roga Dracor


You argue the REAL world can't subscribe to my ideas because that's the way it really was, and it was quite embarrasing to some nations, who now choose to move on, but, it's fiction, so any real world analogies can't be in play in a semi authentic manner that doesn't reflect the truth as you see it? Do I have it straight? I am not that smart, please, couch it in layman's terms, so my feeble brain can understand.Laughing


I already did. In the posts. Above. I also linked to two different wikipedia articles you may find informative.

In short, Nordic does not equal Aryan, and Aryan does not equal Nordic.



Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
Butterfly Effect Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.15 12:17:00 - [45]
 

First, I am not going to touch some of the other replies here with a 3m pole.

Speaking about racial features, please keep in mind that genetic manipulation is already within reach of the current technology. Within a few decades it might be possible to modify features, for example parents wanting natural blonde hair or a true black skin for their children.

It is just an assumption but every race of New Eden might have had some genetic modifications, from the time before there ancestors came through the eve gate. Furthermore the the pale white skin of Sebiestors could be the result of an albino mutation. While natural albinos are rare it is possible that further mutation/modification made this feature dominant in this race.

Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.15 12:33:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 15/08/2011 12:35:35

Originally by: Deviana Sevidon
First, I am not going to touch some of the other replies here with a 3m pole.

Speaking about racial features, please keep in mind that genetic manipulation is already within reach of the current technology. Within a few decades it might be possible to modify features, for example parents wanting natural blonde hair or a true black skin for their children.

It is just an assumption but every race of New Eden might have had some genetic modifications, from the time before there ancestors came through the eve gate. Furthermore the the pale white skin of Sebiestors could be the result of an albino mutation. While natural albinos are rare it is possible that further mutation/modification made this feature dominant in this race.


While that is viable explanation it is not actually necessary.

What the Kurgan hypothesis and other anthropology studies show is that people adapt and change quite quickly in response to their environment. If true, then it has resulted in different races arising in 6-8 thousand years. Much less than the New Eden time line, even if we take the base line of the last Ice age, most of the worlds races of have emerged in circa 20 thousand years. The Daughters of EVE hypothesis has some races emerging as little as 2 thousand years ago.

If we look at modern history we see language is more pliable than genetics, but still retains elements of common proto-language base.


Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Posted - 2011.09.02 14:01:00 - [47]
 

A possible new line of enquiry regarding inspiration for the Minmatar in the Romani. They have a strong Indo-Aryan link, perhaps more so that my previously suggested Tatars.

Minmatar enslavement by Amarr mirrors Romani Enslavement by the Byzantine Empire.

They share the PIE language origins.

Their veneration of Elders, the symbolism of the Wheel.

Their dispersed and nomadic tradition fits several Minmatar tribes.





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