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An X
Posted - 2011.07.07 23:30:00 - [1]
 

Has anybody else done work on languages within EVE? And if not, would any fellow conlangers be interested in possibly constructing languages?

Some thoughts of mine:

The nations -- Caldari, Minmatar, Amarr, Gallente -- would not have a single language spoken as a first language by most of the population. It seems more likely that each would have a lingua franca that is spoken by a majority of the population at least as a second language.

Caldari would probably be based on Finnish. Amarr would perhaps have some basis in Latin, Coptic, Greek, Sanskrit, or Arabic. Gallente would be based on French, of course. Not sure about the Minmatar, but I'd imagine the Brutor's language might be based on Swahili or another Bantu language.

Thoughts?

Kyoko Sakoda
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.07.07 23:34:00 - [2]
 

"Based on" gets into rough territory. "Inspired by" in terms of player creation makes more sense. There are likely thousands of languages in New Eden, though perhaps the majority are more like dialects of another. In any case, here's a good resource for you.

An X
Posted - 2011.07.07 23:36:00 - [3]
 

Obviously after ten thousand or more years the similarities aren't going to be too great, so yes, inspired by is more of the right term.

Ein Phantom
Posted - 2011.07.08 00:31:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: An X

Caldari would probably be based on Finnish.


I find this incredibly funny.

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.07.08 00:39:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 08/07/2011 00:39:57
Originally by: An X
Obviously after ten thousand or more years the similarities aren't going to be too great, so yes, inspired by is more of the right term.


Yes. It's worth keeping in mind that there is four times more years passed between the dawn of the ancient Egyptian Empire and today than there is from modern France to the Gallente. The idea that the Empires have anything to do (besides some possible linguistic roots) with their original peoples is a stretch. However, the link from France to the Gallente is in the prime fiction, so, eh.

An X
Posted - 2011.07.08 00:55:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Ein Phantom
Originally by: An X

Caldari would probably be based on Finnish.


I find this incredibly funny.


Well, I had just heard once before that Caldari seemed a bit like Finnish.

Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 08/07/2011 00:39:57
Originally by: An X
Obviously after ten thousand or more years the similarities aren't going to be too great, so yes, inspired by is more of the right term.


Yes. It's worth keeping in mind that there is four times more years passed between the dawn of the ancient Egyptian Empire and today than there is from modern France to the Gallente. The idea that the Empires have anything to do (besides some possible linguistic roots) with their original peoples is a stretch. However, the link from France to the Gallente is in the prime fiction, so, eh.


It was a poor choice of words.

Ein Phantom
Posted - 2011.07.08 01:04:00 - [7]
 

Read this article on Japanese mega-corporations, and you'll understand the Caldari much more. Also, many of the Caldari names are composed almost entirely of Japanese phonemes with a few exceptions.

Kyoko Sakoda
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.07.08 01:12:00 - [8]
 

Just to point out:

In the book Art of EVE it is mentioned that the three cultural inspirations for the Caldari were "Japan, Germany, and for some reason, Finland" so no one is far off here.

Similarly, the Minmatar and their Republic were influenced by Icelandic tradition and politics. I don't want to go quoting more sources without having the book in my hands, though. Remember that these are just inspirations for the artists and writers and aren't written into prime fiction.

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.07.08 01:20:00 - [9]
 

The thing is, EVE is a sci-fi story. And there's two big families of sci fi stories:

1) Lots of aliens. In this, there are many different species of aliens, all of which pretty transparently represent different facets of the human condition. You have your war-loving aliens, your logical aliens, your peaceful aliens, your trader aliens, etc. EVE is not this, as EVE has no aliens. This is possible to do with only different human nations, however this is tricky, as the audience will expect depth and nuance in a human nation they will not necessarily expect in an alien race. It's hard to have a human nation in a story that does not produce abstract or inspirational art or seek science for the sake of science or have a realistic functional economy, but in stories with aliens, these things happen all the time. E.g. the Klingons of Star Trek, the Krogans of Mass Effect, that kind of thing.

2) Lots of different nations of humanity. In this, often, the different nations of humanity represent different nations on Earth today. Even if the authors didn't intend it this way, it often happens as the writers world is dominated by these nations, and naturally their creative output will be sourced to the world they live in. Many game worlds are like this - for instance, in Battletech we have the borderline racist Japanese stereotypes of the Draconis Combine.

EVE has one foot in the second category, as both the Amarr and the Gallente have clear roots in current political and religious concepts. The Amarr being part of some "Catholic" church, and the Gallente being named explicitly as French. Also, the ties between the Japanese sounding names of many Caldari corporations, and the clearly Nordic names of the Minmatar language.

So, to the extent we understand the game world, as created by the game writers, there are going to be some parallels to real world, current national situations. But if we are to think logically about what would happen to a people 20,000 years in the future, the idea of current nations having some influence on their culture is laughable. So then, it comes down to how we see EVE - as a science fiction story, or as a science fiction concept with a life of its own. The writers' statements in this forum have been ambivalent on which vision the players should look to for analysis.

Roga Dracor
Caldari
Mental Disorders Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.08 05:52:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Roga Dracor on 08/07/2011 06:23:48

Bataav
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
Posted - 2011.07.08 14:39:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: An X
Has anybody else done work on languages within EVE? And if not, would any fellow conlangers be interested in possibly constructing languages?

Some thoughts of mine:

The nations -- Caldari, Minmatar, Amarr, Gallente -- would not have a single language spoken as a first language by most of the population. It seems more likely that each would have a lingua franca that is spoken by a majority of the population at least as a second language.

Caldari would probably be based on Finnish. Amarr would perhaps have some basis in Latin, Coptic, Greek, Sanskrit, or Arabic. Gallente would be based on French, of course. Not sure about the Minmatar, but I'd imagine the Brutor's language might be based on Swahili or another Bantu language.

Thoughts?

I highly recommend you visit the Backstage forum which has a lot of content on player driven projects for the languages of New Eden.

There's a sticky thread there that is the perfect place to start.

The work that's been put into these projects is massively impressive and definately worth a look if you're interested.

The language project I've been involved with personally is the Intaki language more of which can be found on the ILF Forums.

This particular project has been running for over 12 months and is due for release in the very near future. But we're not just talking a few words and phrases. Intaki should be fully conversational and has it's own script (already downloadable as a usable font both ingame and out).

Bataav

Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.08 15:16:00 - [12]
 


Language Translators (Chronicle)

If you look at the origins of the proper nouns in New Eden you will see quite a lot of separate languages featured, some you've mentioned, but most have a common base called PIE (Proto Indo European) by lingusts.

One of my on-going lines of enquiry is a study of the Etymology of Eve names & locations.

Which despite the trollish noise has a much stronger basis in Eve cannon than most of the fictional languages being made up elsewhere.

Bataav
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
Posted - 2011.07.09 02:27:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Wyke Mossari
Which despite the trollish noise has a much stronger basis in Eve cannon than most of the fictional languages being made up elsewhere.

There are plenty of examples of CCP turning player created content from non-capsuleer characters to made up languages into canon.

Take the opening post in this thread for example.

Here we have a CCP live event actor (we can tell because of the green frame) ending his post with "Rikaato".

That's Napanii for 'Thanks'

It's made up.

By Players.

Horatius Caul
Amarr
Kitzless
Posted - 2011.07.10 23:59:00 - [14]
 


Alexeph Stoekai
Stoekai Corp
Posted - 2011.07.11 00:18:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Wyke Mossari

Which despite the trollish noise has a much stronger basis in Eve cannon than most of the fictional languages being made up elsewhere.

I'm sorry if the fact that star and region names can't really constitute a working language rubs you the wrong way.

Thgil Goldcore
Amarr
Robonia
Posted - 2011.07.11 07:00:00 - [16]
 

it would stand to reason that most minmatar would likely speak the same language as the amarr, given their background. Im sure in the 700 years of slavery the Amarr did a fairly good job at eliminating most of the minmatar language and substituted it with the amarr one.

Horatius Caul
Amarr
Kitzless
Posted - 2011.07.11 12:21:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Thgil Goldcore
it would stand to reason that most minmatar would likely speak the same language as the amarr, given their background. Im sure in the 700 years of slavery the Amarr did a fairly good job at eliminating most of the minmatar language and substituted it with the amarr one.

The Amarr didn't manage to eliminate anything else, like cultural unity, tribal divisions, names, tattoo rituals or social structures. Considering that, it's not strange if language survived as well. Large parts have probably been lost, but the Republic has had quite some time to restore their language to working order now.

Artabanus
Posted - 2011.08.09 02:00:00 - [18]
 

Check out the Vaanin k'Intaki. Downloadable from either Free Intaki Forum, or Chronicles of EVE.

Art

Roga Dracor
Caldari
Mental Disorders Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.09 23:14:00 - [19]
 

Brutor, I always assumed something like Afrikaan, yes the political undertows of South Africa.. If you look at the U.S. There are distinct dialects spoken based in region. Though a foreigner might not notice a Texas accent is nothing like a Tennesee accent. Creole is spoken in the South and it is a mesh of English and French with some hardy backwoods America thown in fo good mesha'. I always looked at the Matari as speaking dialecta of The Aryans, and no don't ask me who they were, Netflix has a great documentary about them, watch it. So any of the derivitive "Aryan" languages, like German, high and low, Swedish, Dutch, Finnish, English, etc. could be used as a basis for Matari languages, like Afrikaan.. The etymologies of Eve are relevent.

One thing I have noticed, is not many give credit to CCP with being staffed by smart, well read individuals, (drunken vikings I heard once), well I think you are wrong, I am not a rocket scientist, nor even a very good programmer, and I have studied and understand some of these concepts, I used to be an avid reader of speculative fiction, and I assure you there must have been some VERY intense philisophical discussions at CCP. And yes, some of them might be alcohol inspired, so what.. Razz

Artabanus
Posted - 2011.08.09 23:44:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Roga Dracor
Brutor, I always assumed something like Afrikaan, yes the political undertows of South Africa.. If you look at the U.S. There are distinct dialects spoken based in region. Though a foreigner might not notice a Texas accent is nothing like a Tennesee accent. Creole is spoken in the South and it is a mesh of English and French with some hardy backwoods America thown in fo good mesha'. I always looked at the Matari as speaking dialecta of The Aryans, and no don't ask me who they were, Netflix has a great documentary about them, watch it. So any of the derivitive "Aryan" languages, like German, high and low, Swedish, Dutch, Finnish, English, etc. could be used as a basis for Matari languages, like Afrikaan.. The etymologies of Eve are relevent.

One thing I have noticed, is not many give credit to CCP with being staffed by smart, well read individuals, (drunken vikings I heard once), well I think you are wrong, I am not a rocket scientist, nor even a very good programmer, and I have studied and understand some of these concepts, I used to be an avid reader of speculative fiction, and I assure you there must have been some VERY intense philisophical discussions at CCP. And yes, some of them might be alcohol inspired, so what.. Razz


Uh, I'm lost...please clarify what you're talking about...

Roga Dracor
Caldari
Mental Disorders Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.10 12:35:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Roga Dracor on 10/08/2011 13:07:08
Yes, I suppose I did get lost in tangents there..Embarassed

In the U.S., we have direct, national experience with slavery and human trafficking. Someone suggested the Minmatar would have "lost" their native language to the "slavers". I disagree, Cajun, Afrikaan and a few other real life examples show this to be only partially true. While the slaves adopt the "master" language, they invariably adapt and modify it with traces of the original "slave" language and culture. Even English itself was formed in such a way.

So, in the U.S. we have dialects that have been created through melding of two distinct languages. In South Africa, Afrikaan, a blending of Dutch and native languages. These languages still retain the benchmarks of the "Father Tongue", or "Mother Tongue", I suppose it depends on your outlook. =)

This has shown itself to be a modus operandi in human evolution. A Semiotic trend, if you will. It would certainly ring true of New Eden, as well. We are after all, all human. If we delve further, we find PIE, a base language from which many, arguably ALL, languages evolved. As we can see today, there is a trend in the world towards English as the lingua franca. Much as Latin used to be, during the Roman Empires.

With all the "Aryan" culture infused into the Matari cannon, I find it highly doubtful the Brutor spoke something like Swahili or Bantu. Try something like Afrikaan. I have been asked before what an "Aryan" is. Honestly, I couldn't believe the question was posed. The technological age is dumbing us down.

After WWII, many German's migrated to Brazil and South America. Engendering perhaps another Matari Tribal dialect.

Roga Dracor
Caldari
Mental Disorders Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.10 13:24:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Roga Dracor on 10/08/2011 13:38:05
I have stated before I believed the geopolitical model for Eve was WWII era Earth. You had French Indonesia, which accounts for Asian looking Frenchmen, the Germans had bases all over the world, including Africa and South America and Persia. The Persians and Italians, btw, considered themselves "Aryans". The Japanese had a vast empire and a burgeoning industrial base. The British Empire, a schismatic society, seperate from the Roman Catholic Church, controlled huge amounts of real estate. And the U.S. was a big nobody, incredible potential, but, no will to step onto the world stage as a major player. We had isolationist policies, at the time. We just wanted to be left alone. To hide in our own little world.Wink

Epsulahm
Posted - 2011.08.10 20:51:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Epsulahm on 10/08/2011 20:52:26
Roga, I hate to come across condescendingly, but your assertionns regarding "slave" culture and "slave" language are quite preposterous...unfortunately all I have right now is my cell phone, and am limited to short responses. Later on tonight, I will respond in depth to some of your statements. I will say for the time-being that you should not rely on Wikipedia for all your information regarding history and the evolution of language and culture.

I apologize in advance for the tone, but your claims are ridiculous....

I will respond further later tonight when I arrive back home.

S.E.A.

Artabanus
Posted - 2011.08.10 22:03:00 - [24]
 

Okay, so I made it to a terminal for a few minutes...

I will now respond to some of your statements...
Originally by: Roga Dracor
Edited by: Roga Dracor on 10/08/2011 13:07:08
In the U.S., we have direct, national experience with slavery and human trafficking.


Many Americans seem to forget that the colonial United States via the British Empire was not the only recipient of slaves during the Trans-Atlantic African slave trade...in fact, we did not receive the better part of slaves from Africa...in fact Latin America, specifically, Brazil, Cuba, and other Caribbean and South-American destinations received far greater slaves than did the United States. This is just a point I think bears mentioning, especially because many Americans think that we are the only ones who experienced slavery in our history. In actuality, the history of the whole world is one of humans dominating each other to the extreme at some point or the other, and many cultures engaged in slave trade. This is not to excuse our collective history, nor am I saying that these facts make it okay; I'm simply stating that we are not the only ones who possess this negative mark in our history, and thus we do not have a monopoly on knowing what the results of slavery and human trafficking are in every case.

Originally by: Roga Dracor
Someone suggested the Minmatar would have "lost" their native language to the "slavers". I disagree, Cajun, Afrikaan and a few other real life examples show this to be only partially true. While the slaves adopt the "master" language, they invariably adapt and modify it with traces of the original "slave" language and culture. Even English itself was formed in such a way.


Cajun is not an African language-based language; it actually is a language, or dialect descendant from the French that was spoken in 17th Century Canada in the Acadia region (I think, going from memory)...in fact "Cajun" is a corruption of either "Canadiens", or maybe "Acadia", one or the other. The point is the language is not related to any African language, nor was it ever spoken by the American slaves, although Cajun may have some African language linguistic data within it, through intermarriage of the Acadiens with the Africans.

Afrikaans (not, Afrikaan), is a Germanic language spoken by the Dutch settlers of what eventually became South Africa. While it does possess some linguistic data from several African languages, it also has material from Asian languages, and even Portuguese.

Artabanus
Posted - 2011.08.10 22:23:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Artabanus on 11/08/2011 03:52:09
Edited by: Artabanus on 10/08/2011 22:32:42
Edited by: Artabanus on 10/08/2011 22:31:37
Originally by: Roga Dracor
If we delve further, we find PIE, a base language from which many, arguably ALL, languages evolved. As we can see today, there is a trend in the world towards English as the lingua franca. Much as Latin used to be, during the Roman Empires.


Please do your homework before making such dogmatic remarks...while a great proportion of the Earth's languages certainly do descend from Proto-Indo European, a great many certainly do not. In fact, Earth possess at least six major language families...Indo-European is just one of the six...and what does the fact that English seems to be a lingua franca in world business, government, etc., have anything to do with your aforementioned statements? Draw the line please.

Originally by: Roga Dracor
With all the "Aryan" culture infused into the Matari cannon, I find it highly doubtful the Brutor spoke something like Swahili or Bantu. Try something like Afrikaan. I have been asked before what an "Aryan" is. Honestly, I couldn't believe the question was posed. The technological age is dumbing us down.


The question as to what "Aryan" is...is actually a very valid question, one I am sure no one can answer definitively, as it certainly depends on what you mean by "What is Aryan?". Sort of like saying, "What is American?" Native American? African-American? European-American? Mexican-American? Central-American? South-American? Ad nauseum, ad infinitum.

Originally by: Roga Dracor
After WWII, many German's migrated to Brazil and South America. Engendering perhaps another Matari Tribal dialect.


I won't touch that one; any assertions could be made regarding any language spoken in a fictional futuristic sci-fi world...kinda like what we've done with Modern Classic Intaki. For that matter, maybe the Matari languages are a resurrection of Native American tongues; who knows. We make it up, we believe it, therefore it is. Cause it's make-believe.

While I certainly believe that everyone has a right to have an opinion/belief, as well as a right to state such beliefs, when it comes to making statements about the real world, it's usually best to try to know what you're talking about, especially if it is stated in a dogmatic and even pedantic manner. While it is true that languages evolve and adapt and are modified, making it difficult to discern their histories, there is an abundance of information that is fairly well-established and can help us in understanding how language develops, even for the layman. With regards to the English language in the United States, while it may contain some genetic information from the slaves' languages when they were brought here, very little of that information remains. I know of no black folks in the United States that know any African languages (unless they speak Gullah). However, in my own family (who are not originally from the US, but are from another American country), there are many words remaining in the language that are of African origin. Yet, the language we/they speak is not an African language; nor even a pidgin between English, French, Portuguese Spanish, and any African language. It is the language of the conquering nation that enslaved our/their ancestors. Regardless of the amount of words that may be in these aforementioned European languages, they are still very much that...English, French, Portuguese and Spanish. Thus, the descendants (us) of the slaves have very much so lost the "original" tongues. And if human history on Earth is any indication, the same would be true in New Eden, of the Matari stuck in the Amarr Empire. Unfortunately.

Art

Seriphyn Inhonores
Gallente
Eleutherian Guard
Posted - 2011.08.12 10:24:00 - [26]
 

IMO, system names are the primary resource to garner what sort of languages each culture speaks. Caldari have a sort of Finno-Japanese thing going on, while for Gallente I would say their language(s) include English, French and Italian inspirations (primarily Romance-based overall). Agent names are also another good reference point.

I'm not sure where people get the Greek/Latin thing for Amarr, when most things point to Arabic/Persian. I'm always quick to point out that Gallentean starship names are named after Greek deities, while their mission NPCs have Greco-Roman naming. Likely a reference to pre-spaceflight Gallentean culture.

Epsulahm
Posted - 2011.08.12 21:40:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Epsulahm on 13/08/2011 02:00:22
Edited by: Epsulahm on 13/08/2011 01:52:59
Edited by: Epsulahm on 12/08/2011 21:55:55
In reading over my earlier statements, I should clarify that the linguistic situation in an environment and society where slavery is practiced institutionally does not always produce the same effects in every situation. In the US for example, the colonials not only attempted to repress the language of the slaves but their culture. For example, they were often forbidden to speak their language, practice their religion, sing their songs, etc. Of course, there are always attempts to circumvent such repression, but the original culture has no choice but to change or mutate in order to survive in at least some form. Which is what happened to the slaves in the US. No African languages nor hardly any of their vestiges remain in the US. There are remnants remaining, but just bits and pieces of the original, and highly-mutated at that (for example, the vocal tradition in Black American culture finds its roots in many African music traditions). Due to the repressive nature of Anglo-American colonial slavery and discrimination laws and being cut off from the motherland, much of the original cultures, including their languages, music, etc., were lost or mutated.

This is in contrast with the Afican slaves found in Latin-America, i.e., Spanish-speaking, Lusophone, and Francophone New World colonies. Many of the laws found in these places permitted the slaves to maintain some of their cultural or religios practices; often the slaves were able to disguise their mother cultures by mixing it with the colonial cultures, superficially worshipping the colonial God and saints, while in reality honoring their original gods, all the while using their music and language in such practices. This occurred in places like Cuba, Brazil, etc, for example, where the slaves were allowed to keep their drums and pracitce their music to a limited degree, unlike what occurred in the North-American US culture. This had the result that today in these Latin-American cultures and languages, many words continue to persist that are of African source, esp. Yoruban., but others also. Much of the music also, while a fusion of African and European music, is overwhelmingly African in nature. Thus, Latin-American "Afro-American" culture retained a stronger link to the original mother culture than occurred in the US.

Something similar could occur or could be occurring within the Amarrian Empire with respect to those Minmatar still within its borders. Slave laws within different districts may vary, or their application may vary. These factors would also thus vary the effect upon the language(s) spoken by these people. Of course, those Minmatar that evaded slavery surely retained the original languages and cultures, although it seems likely that the catasrophic nature of the Amarrian invasion of Minmatar space would have left a permanent mark on the cultures of all of the tribes, including theirlanguages.

Sorry for any spelling errors; posting from my android phone.

Art

Artabanus
Posted - 2011.08.12 22:02:00 - [28]
 

Dammit...I keep signing as Epsulahm, instead of Artabanus...

Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.13 09:32:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 13/08/2011 12:56:45
Originally by: Roga Dracor

The etymologies of Eve are relevent.

One thing I have noticed, is not many give credit to CCP with being staffed by smart, well read individuals, (drunken vikings I heard once), well I think you are wrong, I am not a rocket scientist, nor even a very good programmer, and I have studied and understand some of these concepts, I used to be an avid reader of speculative fiction, and I assure you there must have been some VERY intense philisophical discussions at CCP. And yes, some of them might be alcohol inspired, so what.. Razz


Undoubtedly, the question I keep asking myself is to what extent it is deliberate and to what extent is just a reflection of the cultural background of the individuals. At the beginning of this process I used to think it more more of the latter and less of the former. However the more I study and explorer this mystery the more obvious it becomes that the latter, that it is deliberate.

Which takes me back to a DropBear statement (Paraphased), "...it is there for a reason".

Frankly I've given up trying to convince others, people either see it or not. Sometimes people just have to make the connections themselves.

Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.13 09:58:00 - [30]
 


@Epsulahm/Artabanus

I'm rather taken back by your tone, you seem willing and able to make a valuable contribution but I think you are allowing some pasted grudge or slight against Roga to overwhelm the ideas you're expressing.

You called Roga ideas preposterous then go on to establish which seem to me to be the same or similar ideas expressed with a different set of examples, mixed in with a lot of unnecessary invective.



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