open All Channels
seplocked Intergalactic Summit
blankseplocked I Guess CVA is back to their old tricks
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: [1] 2 3

Author Topic

Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor
The Seventh Day
Posted - 2011.07.07 01:56:00 - [1]
 

I would like to thank CVA for once again wiping out my fleet in the friendly region of Providence.



I remember a few years ago we had problems like this, and low and behold... nothing changes. As it turns out, for the penalty of one of my rookie pilots (in training mind you) miss identifying an assault frigate as a red, CVA and friends wtfpwn us on a gate while we were waiting for actual bad guys.


Now the issue here is not the KOS checker.
Nor is it NRDS policy.


It is more like... Your supposed to contact the CEO of said corp and ask for your ship to be replaced (or something like that) and if I tell you to go f'yourself I then get on the super badguy list.


. . .



So now that I am on the super badguy list, I would like to inform CVA that:


1. I do appreciate how you guys are able to provide an easy path into null sec for new pod pilots. Now that your back on the scene I would just like to say Providence is invaluable for the little guy... and I am all about the little guy.


2. As oppose to past endeavors where I prob would have shown up in the Diplo channel and asked for forgiveness, I will instead elect to relish my new found red standings and commence killing everything that flies past me. It is sad, there is so much potential in your premise but it has always been so poorly executed. CVA was the original cluster**** coalition,





And without the ability to keep and maintain your friends...
What do you have?




A universe of angry reds I guess.


Aiwha
Caldari
101st Space Marine Force
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2011.07.07 02:59:00 - [2]
 

Welcome, to the joyous target filled universe of NBSI. YARRRR!!

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.07 07:22:00 - [3]
 

It seems to me that you were looking for an excuse to start shooting at people

Gnast
Posted - 2011.07.07 09:53:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Gnast on 07/07/2011 10:01:03
I was part of the squadron that responded to your presence in Providence and have lived in the area for about 6 years, so are well versed in the
different shades of grey when it comes to calling someone target or not. Also how the process has been adopted due to Concord policies.

In your particular situation;

If you know one of your pilots has at fault of his own destroyed a neutral vessel, you as CEO are obligated to contact CVA diplomats to sort the issue out.
Flying futher into Providence without such clearance is a highstake gamble. There where several Diplomats online at the time which could have accepted
your explanation if you had offered such. This is why we have the "cva-diplo" communication channel.

Is this a change in procedure as compared to how it used to be?
Both yes and no.

Take IAC back in the days. Good friends, but blue on blue happened from time to time. If the offending pilot(s) didnt contact the victim or CVA diplomats
right there and then offering reimbursment/explaination, then a squadron would be dispatched and deal with the rouge elements.
Then when that was taken care of leadership in IAC would be contacted explaining why pilot(s) of them where taken out by Providence forces.
Their reaction where always "We will have words with the offending pilot(s)."

Why doesnt CVA contact the offending pilot(s) CEO?
The burden of evidence and workload falls on the offending party, not the other way around.
Yes, there are times where CEOs are contacted as soon as issues arises, but thats usually when said pilot is part of a local organisation that
are a well known entity. Then offending pilots MIGHT be given the benefit of the doubt right there and then.

Did we more activly contact CEOs in the past?
Yes, but due to CONCORD policies this procedure was heavily exploited by rouge elements, and they would change affiliation on almost daily basis to
avoid detection. It was precived as a "jailfree" card.
In addition the "contact CEO" procedure isnt really viable for anyone beyond the local entities due to the high volume of neutrals in the area.
Diplomats is constantly busy with processing issues which has been submitted to them.


And to finish this off I will quote one of our Diplomats;

http://pwnedfactor.eve-kill.net/

As you correctly state, Providence is once again a friendly region (mostly), but according to your own KB, you made two mistakes in a row, not one, right before you entered it. Furthermore your own KB shows more mistakes that make you KOS. And it is a known fact that CVA (even stated in our FAQ) has no obligation to inform you that you became KOS. The pilots that file a KOS request are asked to do that.

Anyway, it's clear you haven't understood how NRDS works, or tried to enforce it to your members. CVA is NRDS everywhere, but you should have at least tried to be NRDS in Amarr Empire/Providence/WH-space. Despite a bit outdated read this to understand better http://www.cva-eve.org/index.php?page=faq

Perhaps you'll understand your mistakes and join cva-diplo to ask forgiveness after all.

Amarr Victor!

Liet
PWNED Factor
Posted - 2011.07.07 10:14:00 - [5]
 

Nice to see 101st still kicking around.

As to looking for something to shoot? Sure why else take a fleet into null. Fact is though we were not shooting cva or its pets aside from a AF that it turns out happend nearly 8 hours earlier.

KOS requests are sent in, reviewed and then acted upon. It would be an easy thing to contact someone when something so minor happends, and then work out either a replacement for the person involved or a place on the KOS list if request is not acted upon.

In its current form your system is very easily abused. The galaxy could bring its npc alts in AF's into your low sec, fire a couple shots and get killed by whoever, then report them as KOS. Even if they don't make it to the list it would keep the morons who run the list back logged from now till the end of eve.

CVA didn't try in this case so why should we bother. CVA directly attacked us and by proxy dragged all its pets and friends into it. CVA won't take many losses to us hunting i am sure. But its so called friends will reap CVA's mistake.

And btw. The AF in question was red to us, shot first and we have it on vid. Guess the corp member picked a good time to try out fraps.

Have a good day.

Liet


IGoTraLaLa
Posted - 2011.07.07 10:14:00 - [6]
 

I have also suffered at the hand of the CVA "grey" area as they call it. I had simply been in the vicinity where some pirates had attacked another player. Shortly afterwards Dyntheos, someone I cannot fail to notice was involved in your situation, destroyed my ship for no reason.

I contacted CVA diplo over this however and they were content to demean me. In fact I've not seen such snobbery from even the likes of Genos who are well known for their inflated egos (though it has to be admitted they at least have the excuse of mostly being school children).

Also I think I'd take an explanation better from someone whose avatar is obviously not intended to inflame those who he is addressing. It is clearly yet another tactic used by CVA diplomats (or otherwise) to further aggrevate those who fall between the "grey" cracks.

Caviar Liberta
Gallente
Moira.
Posted - 2011.07.07 10:22:00 - [7]
 

Gnast is correct. In another life I was a mackinaw pilot and was a member of an industrial corp that had good standings with with CVA. We often would show up with a good number of pilots to mine ice. The isk was good and spent just the same.

We had a situation arise where one of our pilots (I wasn't present thankfully) made an unwise choice to think he should try to attack the mining operation with smart bombs. We got word very quickly as most of us was in an intel channel that we might have our good standing removed and placed as kill on sight. However our CEO dealt with the pilot that had put our good standings in disarray by removing the pilot from our corp as quickly as possible thus restoring our good standing with them.

To conclude this I encourage those that want to play nice with CVA to make sure that your standings are up to date with CVA's and to ensure that those under you understand exactly what NRDS means.

Liet
PWNED Factor
Posted - 2011.07.07 10:25:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Gnast
Anyway, it's clear you haven't understood how NRDS works, or tried to enforce it to your members. CVA is NRDS everywhere, but you should have at least tried to be NRDS in Amarr Empire


CVA is NRDS everywhere, and tells its pets they have to be as well. We are neither. Its not our policy or our way. Do we respect others. Sure, until they play a douche card. I was in LFA long enough to know the rules of provi, and I know full well that we should have been contacted. When we loaded the kos page it didn't show us as KOS even after the kill. Thats why we were running through provi.

Now aside from the obvious CVA influance is spread to provi and amarr low sec. If you are a member or want blue standings you need to abide by this. No one else does.

Once again, have a good day.

Liet

Tigerfish Torpedo
Underworld Protection Agency
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.07.07 10:47:00 - [9]
 

Mr Praetorian,

I've fought CVA for as long as I can remember – back to a time before you even became a capsuleer, I’d wager. For years I've taken every opportunity afforded me to fire upon their ships in anger, yet when I try to think back to how that initial aggression started, I seem to recall it being along a similar line to your recent experience.

I was once a carefree, happy-go-lucky Providence dweller, working alongside CVA to keep their space free of pirates, yet suddenly, without provocation, they attacked me! In an epic battle to defend my Pilgrim from the evil might of a CVA hauler, I was forced to destroy the attacking ship and accidentally killed the pilot’s pod soon after.

Why, might I ask, after such a long and hard time defending their space had they attacked me without due cause? I was a model citizen – a role model for young CVA pilots everywhere! Okay, so I may have accidentally killed Pezzle’s Punisher in a bubble on the KBP gate and destroyed his capsule too, but he saw the funny side – I’m certain of it! He knew it was only me having a little bit of fun between anti-piracy patrols! Okay, so my circle of friends at that time included the heretic, Revan Neferis, but surely I can’t be blamed for that?

You see, here’s the truth about CVA… They may proclaim themselves as being ‘Not Red, Don’t Shoot’, yet to overcome this issue and engage in a little piracy themselves, all they need do is add you to the Providence ‘KOS List’. They control the list, and thus can make you a ‘valid’ target whenever they feel like it! Believe it or not, after all my hard work on their behalf, I am on this very same list myself.

I bid my warmest regards to CVA, and to you too Mr Praetorian! You do not stand alone against their tyranny!

Tigerfish Torpedo.
‘Carebear at heart’

Valtis Thermalion
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.07 10:47:00 - [10]
 

There is sadly administrative overhead and as such kos checker is always slightly lagging behind. However, after shooting neutral ships you should have contacted our diplomatic staff; assuming that you will remain neutral after that incident is foolish, especially so when we have reports of heavily armed ships moving inside our space after aggressing neutrals. Also, the assault frigate was just the tip of the iceberg. After reviewing your combat recods, we have found multiple incidents of you firing upon neutral vessels, which makes you effectively a pirate corp in our eyes. Seeing how you claim to have worked with us in the past, you should have known that, making any claims of ignorance laughable.

As Gnast already pointed out, we aren't "supposed to contact CEOs". We may grant this favor to well known local organizations but generally speaking, any previously unknown corporation or alliances will merely be set red and will be fired upon.

As for the assault frigate being red to you; CVA operates on CVA standings and kos list. We quite frankly don't care about your standings. If you shoot entities that are neutral to us, you will be set red. We neither care about your policies or rules of engagement. You can be NBSI or NRDS or you can choose your targets with a pair of dice for all we care. As long as you don't engage neutral or blue entities withing our sphere of influence you will remain neutral to us. Failure to do so has it consequences as you already have found out.






Codo Yagari
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet
Yulai Federation
Posted - 2011.07.07 11:19:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
2. As oppose to past endeavors where I prob would have shown up in the Diplo channel and asked for forgiveness, I will instead elect to relish my new found red standings and commence killing everything that flies past me. It is sad, there is so much potential in your premise but it has always been so poorly executed. CVA was the original cluster**** coalition


So, according to you CVA doesn't enforce NRDS properly, and as a reply to this you turn NBSI. WOW, talk about lack of perspective. CVA may be at flaw with their NRDS (I dont think so), but you abandon it altogether, and accuse CVA of being at fault. lol

It's also amuzing to see that so many accuse CVA of running NRDS poorly, "it's a joke", "oooh I'm so offended and ****ed off", "oh wow CVA are so evil", but noone seems to complain about the 97% rest of 0.0 sec who are true pure-bred NBSI backstabbers. Why no aggro about them? Mind you, THEY ARE THE REAL PROBLEM.

sheesh, the amount of trash you see on these forums...

P.S. Thankyou CVA for probably being the greatest contributors to NRDS in the history of EVE. You deserve perhaps the greatest respect given to any alliance in EVE.


Kazzzi
Amarr
Heathen Legion
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2011.07.07 11:50:00 - [12]
 

Another one of them 'pirate vs acronym cultist' threads. We should move all of these over to the crime and punishment forum.


Ospie
Ransom and Kill
Core.Impulse
Posted - 2011.07.07 12:00:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Kazzzi
Another one of them 'pirate vs acronym cultist' threads. We should move all of these over to the crime and punishment forum.




I concur. I have witnessed CVA members admitting they changed this corp to KOS just 3 minutes before they actually ganked the OP and his corp. CVA clearly belongs in the C&P forum.

Since they are clearly criminal (by their own rules) they should be punished, perhaps another invasion by -A- would be in order?


Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor
The Seventh Day
Posted - 2011.07.07 12:07:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 07/07/2011 12:20:30
CVA is not supposed to contact me.
The offended corporation is supposed to send me the "You have violenced my ship you have been warned blah blah" EVE mail.


That is the way it has been done for years. But ofc, we can just change our methods on the fly and tell everyone else "Surprise!" And then the CVA diplos can wonder in here and say "We don't have to..." in defense.


OFC you don't have too contact me, why would you?



You're job is supposed to be that you make sure that the Offended gives the Offender's CEO that EVE mail before you set them to KOS. And there is supposed to be a 24 hour grace period if I recall. Evidently our "kos status" was issued via an event that occurred 19:319 EVE time but by 0:47 ON THAT SAME EVENING we were getting surprise buttsex'd buy a standing CVA fleet complete with a back up fleet waiting in the next system after we fired back.




This is not your policy.
And if it is now... it is your "New Version" of it.


Go ahead CVA diplos disagree with me?
Tell me this is not the way you did things before AAA ground you into the ground and forced you to buy your space back after it became less valuable?

Tigerfish Torpedo
Underworld Protection Agency
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.07.07 12:22:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Tigerfish Torpedo on 07/07/2011 12:24:31

Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
You're job is supposed to be....


Did you really think it wise to bring attention to that horrendous use of 'you're' instead of 'your' by making it bold and italicizing it?

To summarize, you're actually writing that message as follows:

'You are job is supposed to be... yadda, yadda' - I'm bored now.

Pilots of New Eden, the training we undertake to become capsuleers is time consuming and expensive. Can we not simply add modern language skills to the programme?

Tiger.

Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor
The Seventh Day
Posted - 2011.07.07 12:30:00 - [16]
 

@ Tigerfish Torpedo, you have loosed me there. Very Happy

Gnast
Posted - 2011.07.07 12:32:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Gnast on 07/07/2011 12:36:26

The ROE I spelled out above is the way we do it now, and have done in the past.

I think the explaination for it was comprehensive enough the first time, so I wont bother repeating myself.

You are welcome to disagree with our ROE, but thats more your problem than ours.
Given the amount of neutrals flying happily around minding their own buissniss I think we will keep doing it this way in the future too.

And Ospie, if anything a KOS made on the fly is more a matter of having improved instead of having standings be left alone for days and even weeks
to be resolved. If a squadron is approaching neutrals that has been reported shooting other neutrals then the FC will ask for clarification
and standings adjusted.
And tbh an FC doesnt actually have to WAIT for the standings to be adjusted. If a diplo calls it or evidence is found on killboards it can be made on the fly.

This is nothing new.

Dont like it? Not my problem.

Melina Phoebe
Amarr
sacrosanctae plebs
The Fourth District
Posted - 2011.07.07 12:37:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 07/07/2011 12:20:30
You're job is supposed to be that you make sure that the Offended gives the Offender's CEO that EVE mail before you set them to KOS. And there is supposed to be a 24 hour grace period if I recall. Evidently our "kos status" was issued via an event that occurred 19:319 EVE time but by 0:47 ON THAT SAME EVENING we were getting surprise buttsex'd buy a standing CVA fleet complete with a back up fleet waiting in the next system after we fired back.

You attack neutrals, bring your fleet into Providence and expect CVA to wait 24 hours to respond to this pirate threat?

Okay.

Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor
The Seventh Day
Posted - 2011.07.07 13:01:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 07/07/2011 13:07:55
Hey it's not my rule, it's yours.



But no matter, I plan on enjoying my new found red standings. I am thinking, maybe... something along the lines of... hijacking an amarr spaceliner and wraping it's passengers up in tin foil, exposing them to the void of space and bake them in sweet sweet starlight.


Then I will send out a transmission and see if the Blood raiders want to pay handsomely for a truly decadent meal loaded with all the trimmings. If they do not, the Amarr civilians that remain will be used to row my ship in order to save on jumpdrive fuel. It really adds up U know Sad



This will ofc leave me with an awful lot of amarr loyalists kabobs who were once loyal to their god (or were before I cooked them and slathered them with BBQ sauce) I am not entirely sure what I will do with them. But pretending to be an minmatar waiter in a high class restaurant in providence comes to mind.


Enjoy your meals!



Leo d'Green
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.07 14:24:00 - [20]
 

It isn't a rule, actually, it's a recommendation. And in this case, it didn't apply, anyway. You should not have been contacted, since there was no KOS request - you just made the mistake of committing this particular act of piracy where we're paying attention to such things, instead of far away, as you usually do.

I do have a few questions for the peope involved here, however.

The first one is for IGoTraLaLa. If someone whose ship was never destroyed by members of your organisation (or anyone else, ever, as far as you could see) came to you and started whining about that nonexisting ship being supposedly destroyed, wouldn't you get annoyed, and maybe even be rude to them?

And two are for PWNED Factor.

First, you say you will now go from killing everything that flies past you to killing everything that flies past you. There must be a nuance I'm missing here, could you please elaborate?

Second, you say the pilot whose ship you destroyed in Mamet is red to you. Is it just the pilot, whose entire combat record consists of killing Sansha's freaks and twice running afoul of random pirates (one of them being you), or is it the entire Royal Amarr Institute?

Leeroy McJenkins
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.07.07 15:34:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Codo Yagari
It's also amuzing to see that so many accuse CVA of running NRDS poorly, "it's a joke", "oooh I'm so offended and ****ed off", "oh wow CVA are so evil", but noone seems to complain about the 97% rest of 0.0 sec who are true pure-bred NBSI backstabbers. Why no aggro about them? Mind you, THEY ARE THE REAL PROBLEM.


You miss the point Codo, the other 97% of 0.0 does not pretend to sit on a high horse so you already know what to expect from them.

Exie
The Suicide Express
Twilight Federation
Posted - 2011.07.07 16:08:00 - [22]
 

Now there is nothing I like more then to see the slaver ships burn, but I must say, listening to Eternum explain to the slaver what their policy is, just priceless.

Nachshon
Caldari
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2011.07.07 17:55:00 - [23]
 

Let me try to figure out what you did wrong.

Ah, here it is.

You trusted slavers.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.07.07 18:14:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Nachshon
Let me try to figure out what you did wrong.

Ah, here it is.

You trusted slavers.


The irony in this statement is that the Empire and the Amarr people are not known for dishonesty about their dealings. (Even the slavers are honest about being slavers) In fact, it is their open honesty in regards to their religion, politics and agenda that makes people hate them so much.

Trust isn't the issue.

Succinctly: The issue is that your own pilot engages a non-hostile target (mistakenly, sure). There is no information regarding whether or not this pilot reported the incident, but given the tone of the original post, I will assume he didn't. (Mistake number one)

Then, when the offended party retaliates by engaging those that the offending pilot represented with his actions, you proceed to publicly accuse them of mishandling the situation without so much as offering that your pilot was originally at fault. This action puts CVA on the defense publicly and brings to light your own mishandling of the situation. (Mistake number two)

To compound the issue, you attempt to declare to CVA (the sovereign entity in that region) the proper procedure in these instances when you, yourself, did not do everything in your power to alleviate the hostilities before it reached this point. Instead of accepting responsibility for the actions of your subordinate, you are attempting to direct the blame at the already offended, sovereign entity of the region you were flying in. (Mistake number three)

A commander is responsible for the actions of his subordinates. A CEO is responsible for the actions of his corporation. Instead of pointing blame and trying to victimize yourself, you should have sent the original post to the CVA leadership and explained the situation. (Mistake number four)


Ava Starfire
Minmatar
Teraa Matar
Posted - 2011.07.07 18:39:00 - [25]
 

Going to providence in the first place, mistake 5?

Dunn Idaho
Caldari
Core Impulse
Posted - 2011.07.07 20:15:00 - [26]
 

Those arrogant Amarrians, its almost like they dont care about you at all.

Equinox Daedalus
Caldari
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.07 20:33:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Equinox Daedalus on 07/07/2011 20:37:45
All you really needed to do was to join cva-diplo channel and discuss it like a civlized person.

Instead you run to IGS like a wee lil girl.

Tactically sound, considering the number of times people cry about being shot by cva, i suppose.

I do admire Tigerfish thou, he has been blue/red/neutral/ally/freind/foe a few times over.

I did even say this at one time,

Equinox Daedalus > well let me just tel you this now, rather than waste your time. at no time/chance/effort with that scum sucking maggot pirate scum tigerfish torpedo ever not be kos to cva

and then raven shadows went and let him join FA and for awhile he was blue to cva. /me shrugs.


Nick Bete
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2011.07.07 21:23:00 - [28]
 

It appears that the Star Fraction was correct when they pointed out the problem with CVA and their "standings enclosurism". If you want to play in Providence you have to totally submit yourself to their arbitrary whims. There's a word for this and just to give you a small hint; it's what happens in pleasure hubs when isk is exchanged for sexual favors...

At any rate, I'd recommend staying away from the fetid Providence area unless you want to become another of CVA's "ladies".

Dunn Idaho
Caldari
Core Impulse
Posted - 2011.07.07 21:40:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Nick Bete
It appears that the Star Fraction was correct when they pointed out the problem with CVA and their "standings enclosurism". If you want to play in Providence you have to totally submit yourself to their arbitrary whims. There's a word for this and just to give you a small hint; it's what happens in pleasure hubs when isk is exchanged for sexual favors...

At any rate, I'd recommend staying away from the fetid Providence area unless you want to become another of CVA's "ladies".



Its star fraction. They have never been right about anything ........

Tigerfish Torpedo
Underworld Protection Agency
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.07.08 09:14:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Equinox Daedalus
I do admire Tigerfish thou, he has been blue/red/neutral/ally/freind/foe a few times over.

I did even say this at one time,

Equinox Daedalus > well let me just tel you this now, rather than waste your time. at no time/chance/effort with that scum sucking maggot pirate scum tigerfish torpedo ever not be kos to cva

and then raven shadows went and let him join FA and for awhile he was blue to cva. /me shrugs


Equinox, my old friend!

It’s nice to see you’re still alive and kicking! I’ve not spoken to you in years – something I’m certain you’re quite pleased about. My past with CVA is a little ‘multicolored’ for want of a better expression – yet I deserved nothing less.

Ironically, when we were accepted into FA and I saw CVA was blue, I actually debated taking a small field trip to Providence, not to pirate, but just to see whether CVA would fire on me or not. Truthfully, I will always wonder whether or not I could have traveled through Providence in peace, or whether CVA would have shot at me whilst I was blue to you!

However, having expressed my views to Zagdul, our new and glorious leader, I was branded a ‘moron’ and told to stay away. So, I remained in Fountain, defending our space from the various hostile parties intent on capturing Deklein. I think my talents are far better served working towards a common goal, than simply used to provide entertainment and a cheap cure to my lust for blood.

As a small side note, Mr Daedalus, I have recently left the Sani Sabik, switched from pirate to ‘fleet pilot’ and have befriended a small group of Amarrian loyalists. I’m currently upholding a promise to a close friend, that I’ll not torture, harm or kill anyone simply for my own pleasure.

Don’t you find it amusing, Equinox, that for once I was not the reason that CVA reset standings to an alliance?

Yours, with mutual admiration,

Tigerfish.


Pages: [1] 2 3

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only