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Reeper 2435
Posted - 2011.07.08 14:49:00 - [91]
 

Might i point out to you it was OTTO that started this thread. It's was one of otto's corpmates that brought all the confession of OTTO's threats. I'd say that if OTTO starts a "stop picking on me thread" and one of his corp mates says otto threatened him then quotes are posted... I will grant it may not have been the exact thing written, but it was the same implied meaning. A Griefer doesn't perma dec generally unless you've done something to REALLY tick them off. They have a new fresh noob corp to greif every week, why settle for just one?
Originally by: DeMichael Crimson
Originally by: Riedle
I be trollin' with my main


Yeah, so what. Is that supposed to impress me or make me scared?



ACY GTMI, Reeper and the rest of you players, there is no proof of that chat log being true. If there was a genuine screen shot or official document from CCP, then this would be a different matter. In most country's, a person is innocent until proven guilty. Yeah, read that again. A person is innocent until proven guilty. That also applies to this game.

Over the years these forums have become filled with juvenile and petty troll post spamming, harassment griefing, lies, flame wars, etc, and quite frankly, this whole topic and the posted replies in this thread are literally p*ssing me off to no end.

Go ahead and troll quote me as much as you want, I'm done with this thread and I hope it dies quickly.

ACY GTMI
Veerhouven Group
The Veerhouven Group
Posted - 2011.07.09 13:25:00 - [92]
 

DeMichael has made a number of reasonable and well reasoned posts in the past, and I understand his frustration.

That said, when someone, like the OP, seems dead set on proving that he is a horse's ass, I've always felt that it was in everyone's best interest to point it out, especially to the poster.

Spinal Wetstone
Posted - 2011.07.09 13:38:00 - [93]
 

To stand back and allow, is to allow evil to triumph. If something is to be done, and you dissagree with what Otto has stated, we should all petition it to CCP

Mintala Arana
Amarr
Posted - 2011.07.09 15:17:00 - [94]
 

Originally by: Spinal Wetstone
To stand back and allow, is to allow evil to triumph. If something is to be done, and you dissagree with what Otto has stated, we should all petition it to CCP
Otto didn't threaten me. While I think he's a horse's ass, that in and of itself is not something I can petition. He did threaten you, so you can petition it.

And you should, IMO, whether you think it a credible threat or not...

Greye Cadelanne
Posted - 2011.07.09 16:20:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: Otto VonFaart
As I said, the Corp member who was mining was new to the game... newer than me and I'd only been playing 3 days at that point. He didn't know any of the stuff you people have suggested that he know, as he had not had time in game enough to learn.

Suggestions to "just get over it" aren't good enough.

Some of us have very limited patience with *ssholes. I am one of them.


I had the very same thing done to me, I was "jet-canning" in the Cistuaert system as the guide said. This guy comes along in some advanced ship I didn't recognize, picks up the jet can, then spits it back out. I thought he realized he made a mistake. I picked the can up, since it was my can I didn't worry about the you are stealing message. The guy immediately grabs my ship in some d@mn borg freeze beam and proceeded to inform me that I was a theif. Then he demanded I give him 1 million ISK or he would blow me up. Like the other fellow I told him exactly where to go. He incinerated my ship with one shot. I filed a complaint through the petition system, the response I got from the representative was essentially that I should have fought him. I'm in my brand new starter frigate with its Civilian Light Electron Blaster, he was in what I now believe to have been an Enyo Assault Frigate.

I also made the mistake once of venturing into a system with security of 0.4. The warpgate was camped by a jerk named Konig Dreizehn in his Hurricane with 425mm AutoCannon II. He blew up my ship with one shot and my pod with the next.

I really like Eve and the mining/crafting systems and exploration. It's a real shame that most of the players will never see most of it and will never be able to enjoy most of it. All because there's a group of vocal twelve year olds that shout people down in the forums whose hobby is to do as much as they possibly can to ruin other's days.

Saying "Eve isn't a nice place", or "learn to fight", or "just leave" doesn't resolve anything. I've been playing eve now for two months, in all that time I have yet to talk to a single player that will willingly venture into lowsec, some of whom have been playing for two years or more and have fearsome ships. The phrases "they are usually camped by gankers", "don't do that or you'll run into a gank squad", "don't go there or you will get ganked" are quite common.

What I find most disturbing of all is that the developers endorse and even encourage these behaviors.

Ashgoz Kouvo
Posted - 2011.07.09 16:44:00 - [96]
 

Originally by: Greye Cadelanne
Originally by: Otto VonFaart
As I said, the Corp member who was mining was new to the game... newer than me and I'd only been playing 3 days at that point. He didn't know any of the stuff you people have suggested that he know, as he had not had time in game enough to learn.

Suggestions to "just get over it" aren't good enough.

Some of us have very limited patience with *ssholes. I am one of them.


I had the very same thing done to me, I was "jet-canning" in the Cistuaert system as the guide said. This guy comes along in some advanced ship I didn't recognize, picks up the jet can, then spits it back out. I thought he realized he made a mistake. I picked the can up, since it was my can I didn't worry about the you are stealing message. The guy immediately grabs my ship in some d@mn borg freeze beam and proceeded to inform me that I was a theif. Then he demanded I give him 1 million ISK or he would blow me up. Like the other fellow I told him exactly where to go. He incinerated my ship with one shot. I filed a complaint through the petition system, the response I got from the representative was essentially that I should have fought him. I'm in my brand new starter frigate with its Civilian Light Electron Blaster, he was in what I now believe to have been an Enyo Assault Frigate.

I also made the mistake once of venturing into a system with security of 0.4. The warpgate was camped by a jerk named Konig Dreizehn in his Hurricane with 425mm AutoCannon II. He blew up my ship with one shot and my pod with the next.

I really like Eve and the mining/crafting systems and exploration. It's a real shame that most of the players will never see most of it and will never be able to enjoy most of it. All because there's a group of vocal twelve year olds that shout people down in the forums whose hobby is to do as much as they possibly can to ruin other's days.

Saying "Eve isn't a nice place", or "learn to fight", or "just leave" doesn't resolve anything. I've been playing eve now for two months, in all that time I have yet to talk to a single player that will willingly venture into lowsec, some of whom have been playing for two years or more and have fearsome ships. The phrases "they are usually camped by gankers", "don't do that or you'll run into a gank squad", "don't go there or you will get ganked" are quite common.

What I find most disturbing of all is that the developers endorse and even encourage these behaviors.


If you didnt know yet, EVE is a sandbox game, their playstyle is as good as yours, everybody can play as he wishes (of course without breaking the rules).

Greye Cadelanne
Posted - 2011.07.09 16:56:00 - [97]
 

Originally by: Ashgoz Kouvo
Originally by: Greye Cadelanne
Originally by: Otto VonFaart
As I said, the Corp member who was mining was new to the game... newer than me and I'd only been playing 3 days at that point. He didn't know any of the stuff you people have suggested that he know, as he had not had time in game enough to learn.

Suggestions to "just get over it" aren't good enough.

Some of us have very limited patience with *ssholes. I am one of them.


I had the very same thing done to me, I was "jet-canning" in the Cistuaert system as the guide said. This guy comes along in some advanced ship I didn't recognize, picks up the jet can, then spits it back out. I thought he realized he made a mistake. I picked the can up, since it was my can I didn't worry about the you are stealing message. The guy immediately grabs my ship in some d@mn borg freeze beam and proceeded to inform me that I was a theif. Then he demanded I give him 1 million ISK or he would blow me up. Like the other fellow I told him exactly where to go. He incinerated my ship with one shot. I filed a complaint through the petition system, the response I got from the representative was essentially that I should have fought him. I'm in my brand new starter frigate with its Civilian Light Electron Blaster, he was in what I now believe to have been an Enyo Assault Frigate.

I also made the mistake once of venturing into a system with security of 0.4. The warpgate was camped by a jerk named Konig Dreizehn in his Hurricane with 425mm AutoCannon II. He blew up my ship with one shot and my pod with the next.

I really like Eve and the mining/crafting systems and exploration. It's a real shame that most of the players will never see most of it and will never be able to enjoy most of it. All because there's a group of vocal twelve year olds that shout people down in the forums whose hobby is to do as much as they possibly can to ruin other's days.

Saying "Eve isn't a nice place", or "learn to fight", or "just leave" doesn't resolve anything. I've been playing eve now for two months, in all that time I have yet to talk to a single player that will willingly venture into lowsec, some of whom have been playing for two years or more and have fearsome ships. The phrases "they are usually camped by gankers", "don't do that or you'll run into a gank squad", "don't go there or you will get ganked" are quite common.

What I find most disturbing of all is that the developers endorse and even encourage these behaviors.


If you didnt know yet, EVE is a sandbox game, their playstyle is as good as yours, everybody can play as he wishes (of course without breaking the rules).


It's been a very long time since I played in a "sandbox" but I distinctly remember I wasn't allowed to throw sand in the other kids faces.

I just think it's a shame that a few people keep the majority for exploring Eve.

Ashgoz Kouvo
Posted - 2011.07.09 16:59:00 - [98]
 

It looks like the majority is ok with how the situation is atm, else they would do something against it...

Greye Cadelanne
Posted - 2011.07.09 17:00:00 - [99]
 

Originally by: Ashgoz Kouvo
It looks like the majority is ok with how the situation is atm, else they would do something against it...


I think most just leave, me I'm too stupid :). Actually I like the mechanics of Eve enough to stay and avoid Pvp or try to anyway.

Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.07.09 17:01:00 - [100]
 

Edited by: Velicitia on 09/07/2011 17:02:33
Originally by: Greye Cadelanne
I've been playing eve now for two months, in all that time I have yet to talk to a single player that will willingly venture into lowsec, some of whom have been playing for two years or more and have fearsome ships.


because you're talking to the carebear masses in empire hisec. They're all terrified of lowsec. Granted, some fear is warranted of the space... but the same kind of fear that you would have if needing to travel through a seedier part of town (know where you're going, etc).

things to keep in mind in lowsec:
1. CONCORD will not show up to blow the other guy up
2. don't go in blind if possible.
2a. If you must go in blind, be in something fast, cloaky, or (preferably) both.
3. Even though the undock button is equivalent of you saying "OK, I'm up for PVP", jumping into lowsec is equivalent of you getting a megaphone and screaming it at the top of your lungs.
4. be ABSOLUTELY READY to lose whatever you're flying
4a. if you made it back out alive, you were lucky today, tomorrow or next Thursday might be a different story.

Edit - grammar...

Greye Cadelanne
Posted - 2011.07.09 17:16:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: Velicitia
Edited by: Velicitia on 09/07/2011 17:02:33
Originally by: Greye Cadelanne
I've been playing eve now for two months, in all that time I have yet to talk to a single player that will willingly venture into lowsec, some of whom have been playing for two years or more and have fearsome ships.


because you're talking to the carebear masses in empire hisec. They're all terrified of lowsec. Granted, some fear is warranted of the space... but the same kind of fear that you would have if needing to travel through a seedier part of town (know where you're going, etc).

things to keep in mind in lowsec:
1. CONCORD will not show up to blow the other guy up
2. don't go in blind if possible.
2a. If you must go in blind, be in something fast, cloaky, or (preferably) both.
3. Even though the undock button is equivalent of you saying "OK, I'm up for PVP", jumping into lowsec is equivalent of you getting a megaphone and screaming it at the top of your lungs.
4. be ABSOLUTELY READY to lose whatever you're flying
4a. if you made it back out alive, you were lucky today, tomorrow or next Thursday might be a different story.

Edit - grammar...


Why must pvpers refer to those that don't wish to pvp with such demeaning terms? I generally try to get along with all but this gets much more difficult when insults start flying. It's why I tend to avoid forums where the vocal few control all.

Eve has two things that I look for in an MMO, quality and no mages. If there were something else out there on par I'd be happy to leave your game.

Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.07.09 17:40:00 - [102]
 

Originally by: Greye Cadelanne
stuff


eh, what? proud carebear here...

I just am not one of the ones deathly afraid of lowsec.

Mintala Arana
Amarr
Posted - 2011.07.09 17:53:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: Greye Cadelanne
Why must pvpers refer to those that don't wish to pvp with such demeaning terms? I generally try to get along with all but this gets much more difficult when insults start flying. It's why I tend to avoid forums where the vocal few control all.

Eve has two things that I look for in an MMO, quality and no mages. If there were something else out there on par I'd be happy to leave your game.
Umm, PvP is the core of EVE. If you don't "get" that, you don't "get" EVE either. There is basically nothing you can do of a substantive nature anywhere in the game that doesn't involve competition with other players in some fashion, whether it be competition for resources (mining asteroids, salvage, etc.), manufacturing, the market, or actual ship combat.

You can't get away from PvP in EVE. To try is to fail. Automatically. Instantly.

As for low sec... I don't do much ship combat with other players. But low sec is simply a place where a few of the rules that obtain in high sec (the consequence that CONCORD imposes for an unprovoked attack, mostly) don't apply, or don't apply in the same way. You learn what rules apply, figure out how to deal with the changes, and it's not really all that dangerous. There are greater risks in low sec, but there are greater rewards too.

Sleeper 1173
Native Freshfood
Posted - 2011.07.10 11:21:00 - [104]
 

PvP is NOT the core of Eve. PvP is a very small part of Eve, and engaged in by less than 50% of the players. I suspect that it is much less than 50%.

The vocal minority would like everyone to believe that PvP is a significant part of the game in order to justify their anti-social actions.

That isn't working and it never will.

foksieloy
Minmatar
Rockets ponies and rainbows
Posted - 2011.07.10 12:28:00 - [105]
 

Everything in EvE is PvP.

Have you ever bought anything from a buy order or sold to a sell order? You did PvP. And you lost.

Ashgoz Kouvo
Posted - 2011.07.10 12:39:00 - [106]
 

Originally by: foksieloy
Everything in EvE is PvP.

Have you ever bought anything from a buy order or sold to a sell order? You did PvP. And you lost.


No.

foksieloy
Minmatar
Rockets ponies and rainbows
Posted - 2011.07.10 13:02:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: Ashgoz Kouvo
No.


Congratulation, you are winning in the PvP market game. You are still doing PvP.

Ashgoz Kouvo
Posted - 2011.07.10 13:18:00 - [108]
 

Edited by: Ashgoz Kouvo on 10/07/2011 13:18:59
You seem to have a different definition of PvP than me and you didnt understand what I wanted to say in my post.

Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.07.10 13:42:00 - [109]
 

Edited by: Velicitia on 10/07/2011 13:43:17
Originally by: Sleeper 1173
PvP is NOT the core of Eve. PvP is a very small part of Eve, and engaged in by less than 50% of the players. I suspect that it is much less than 50%.

The vocal minority would like everyone to believe that PvP is a significant part of the game in order to justify their anti-social actions.

That isn't working and it never will.


Is it PVP if you...

  • bought stuff from sell orders - YES (you lost)

  • put stuff up on sell order - YES (win)

  • Listed a buy order - YES (win)

  • mined resources from a system - YES (draw)

  • PI - YES (draw)

  • got a BPO, made copies, sold on contracts - YES (win)

  • used said BPO to make stuff "for free" rather than buy off the market - YES (win)

  • found/completed an exploration site - YES (win)

  • salvaged a wreck - YES (win)



in the above - "win" indicates a clear win over another player in the isk/volume/whatever (i.e. the other player cannot do the same thing until after DT or your order is completed, or completes some other action). "lose" indicates a clear loss as compared to another player (i.e. you cannot do the same thing until after DT or someone else's order completes, or you complete some other action). "Draw" indicates that isk/volume/whatever is comparable, so the 'win' or 'lose' is based on paper numbers only.

Obviously some flavours of PvP are more obvious than others... but at some level, nearly everything in this game is PvP.

The only things *not* PvP on the market are the NPC sell orders for skillbooks, and the NPC Sell orders for BPOs (though they both do lead to PvP). The only non-PvP action you can take in space is completing a mission.

Mintala Arana
Amarr
Posted - 2011.07.10 14:11:00 - [110]
 

Originally by: Sleeper 1173
PvP is NOT the core of Eve.
No. Combat is not the core of EVE. PvP is. Anything that puts you directly or indirectly in competition with another player (for resources, sales, territory, etc.) is "Player versus Player".

Again, you can't get away from PvP in EVE.

Starnap
Concentrated Evil
Posted - 2011.07.10 15:18:00 - [111]
 

Eve is dangerous. I love that, it's the whole point of the game for me.

Not only are there are all sorts of awesome things you can do, there is usually some ******** trying to kill you while you do them. Sometimes that ******** is me, sometimes it's another guy. Either way, I wouldn't have it any different - it's why I play.

Ranita Drell
Intaki Liberation Front
Posted - 2011.07.10 15:49:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: foksieloy
Have you ever bought anything from a buy order or sold to a sell order? You did PvP. And you lost.

That's like saying mined ore is free.

Spinal Wetstone
Posted - 2011.07.10 16:39:00 - [113]
 

Well, their corp let him go, withought punishment, so me and some other corps decced them through alts and such, and their whole corp disbanded.


foksieloy
Minmatar
Rockets ponies and rainbows
Posted - 2011.07.11 06:45:00 - [114]
 

Originally by: Ranita Drell
That's like saying mined ore is free.


No, it is the exact opposite. Mining ORE is also PvP.

Aughir Asmet
Posted - 2011.07.11 11:17:00 - [115]
 

Gratz on painting a big bullseye on your back, OP, you will certainly find yourself with a whole lot more people going for you after this topic, unless you get banned for those threats first, of course.

Riedle
Minmatar
Paradox Collective
Posted - 2011.07.11 11:54:00 - [116]
 

Originally by: Starnap
Eve is dangerous. I love that, it's the whole point of the game for me.

Not only are there are all sorts of awesome things you can do, there is usually some ******** trying to kill you while you do them. Sometimes that ******** is me, sometimes it's another guy. Either way, I wouldn't have it any different - it's why I play.


Agreed 100%

Couldn’t have said it better myself.
Surprised

Ranita Drell
Intaki Liberation Front
Posted - 2011.07.11 12:21:00 - [117]
 

Originally by: foksieloy
No, it is the exact opposite. Mining ORE is also PvP.

My point is, saying you "lose" whenever you buy from a sell order or sell to a buy order overlooks the opportunity costs involved in setting up buy orders and sell orders for everything. You're not "losing" if the convenience, time and resources saved, plus the benefit of being able to immediately use/leverage the acquired resource, are sufficient to offset the ISK loss that you suffer as compared to setting up an order.

Ignoring opportunity costs is the same mistaken thinking that leads people to think that the ore they mine is automatically some sort of bargain because it's free.

I don't disagree that market PvP is PvP, but I also think it's sometimes appropriate to make a distinction between different types of PvP. The OP's primary complaint was about griefing and unwanted combat PvP, which segued into a point about how he doesn't understand why carebears are so looked down upon when the majority of players are carebears of some variety, and called into question the argument that EVE is all about PvP.

That lead to the "market PvP" point which is a fair point to make, but it also blurs the distinction between "PvPer" and carebear, doesn't it? I guess among some, "carebear" is a perceived as a frame of mind, and a weak one at that -- a mindset that is so reluctant to so risk-averse or non-competitive that there's a certain level of obliviousness to the fact that they're engaging in less obvious forms of PvP all the time, and that they're probably losing when they do.

I guess I can see how that would be true. It's understandable that people would approach the game with that mindset to start. I do worry that all the griefing/trolling that new players are sometimes subjected to ends up driving a lot of people off before they can appreciate the depth of the game or enrich the game by their presence (through their subscription dollars, if nothing else).

Reeper 2435
Posted - 2011.07.11 12:42:00 - [118]
 

@ New Players, you newborn eve capsuleers most vets will tell you we cannot stress enough that you should find yourselves a good player corporation that will help you not only learn the ropes but offer you support. For lords sakes, don't join a group of players who's oldest toon is 60 days old, get with those who have base of knowledge. I know many don't want to hear this, but PVP ship losses are an essential part of our eve economy and it should be encouraged to be a weekly ordeal. Think of it this way, if we all have a pile of ships and nobody ever blows them up there will eventually never be any reason to mine asteriods (something i enjoy) and mineral prices will plummet to nothing. The death of one ship is the birth of another. Don't grief, but lets at least on a friday night shoot each other in the e-face with our pixel ships. Internetz Spazshipz iz zerious buziness.

foksieloy
Minmatar
Rockets ponies and rainbows
Posted - 2011.07.11 13:30:00 - [119]
 

Originally by: Ranita Drell
*stuff*


All your points are perfectly valid and I agree with them.
I was merely trying to make a pun that is *basically* true, while not being completely precise. It seems the general message was lost on the audience...

Maduin Ardens
Eve Innovations
Eternal Evocations
Posted - 2011.07.11 13:43:00 - [120]
 

Originally by: Greye Cadelanne
I've been playing eve now for two months, in all that time I have yet to talk to a single player that will willingly venture into lowsec, some of whom have been playing for two years or more and have fearsome ships.


I'll bite on this.

This is a common misconception, that most people do not shake unless they venture out and actually take it upon themselves to learn the game. Empire space is deceptively safe and yet more dangerous at the same time, but you won't really learn what the game is until you at least see more than one aspect of it.

Maybe this will give you some food for thought. I feel safer in null security than I do in Empire. In null, I know three things:

1) If someone wardecs me, nothing changes.
2) If they want a fight, they come out to null, or die trying.
3) Save mercs and adept pirates, most griefers won't step foot in null.

Lastly, see my signature...


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