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Otto VonFaart
The Super Dimension Fortress Macross
Posted - 2011.07.05 12:22:00 - [1]
 

I realize that EVE is set up to be a PvP game experience. However some players seem to take advantage of this. As a very new player (started 26-6-11) I've just been on the receiving end of what I think is extreme grief play & I think noobs should be immune from forced PvP in HiSec areas for some reasonable time frame.

I was recruited into a Corporation that is all noobs except the CEO & his XO. We currently have 16 noob members with no more than (currently) 1 week experience playing EVE.

One of our members who has yet to complete his noobie training missions was mining with a freekin' Ibis in a Sec 1.0 system when his jetcan was tipped by a griefer who then goaded him into firing on him in his Drake! The griefer tipped 3 of our member's jetcans & destroyed his Ibis. Then DEMANDED that our member pay him 5,000,000 ISK or face further grief.

The member called out on or Corp channel begging for help. He still had several jetcans that the griefer had not yet looted. I ran out in an unarmed Badger & collected the ore for the member. At which point the griefer msg'd me and said I now owed him 10,000,000 ISK because I stole "his" loot! He followed me back to our Corporate HQ continually demanding 10 million ISK, even taking his demands into the local channel. I responded rather rudely, telling him his actions were unconscionable & that he was an *sshole (among other vile euphemisms)

Now this jerk, who has a One Man Corp has War Dec'ed our noobie Corp. From his contact information it seems that this person makes his in-game living stealing & extorting funds from noobs he encounters. Amazingly, our Corp CEO is standing up to this guy but also trying to solve this War Dec diplomatically.

The fact that this sort of grief play specifically targeting noobs is not prohibited will cause some players to abandon EVE after their trial period. Others, like me who either subscribe or have purchased the Commissioned Officer Edition (DVD) will certainly consider leaving the EVE community.

Comments welcome.

Otto

foxnod
Brotherhood of the Coast
Posted - 2011.07.05 12:44:00 - [2]
 

1. Never jetcan unless you're willing to accept the consequences.

2. Your corpmate was in an ibis. It's not like his life was ruined.

3. I would suggest you learn to fight; if you don't want to have victim as your reputation.

Oh, and as for your little idea for immunity; it's an unbelievably bad idea.

Abdiel Kavash
Caldari
Paladin Order
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2011.07.05 12:49:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Otto VonFaart
I responded rather rudely, telling him his actions were unconscionable & that he was an *sshole (among other vile euphemisms)


In EVE, comments like this are more than enough to start a war. We got wardecced for even less. This might sound harsh; but you will have to either wait until he gets bored of killing you over and over, hire somoene stronger to make his life hell (which you might not have the funds for), or biomass your character and start with a clean reputation - and try to keep it that way.

Hoshi
Hedron Industries
Red Dwarf Racketeering Division
Posted - 2011.07.05 12:49:00 - [4]
 

This is not griefing, it's normal gameplay. Greifing is not allowed in EVE but what is considered greifing is different when what you have encountered in other games. EVE is supposed to be a harsh world and the rules reflect this.

There are several ways to avoid this war dec. The most simple one is to quit to an NPC corp until he grows tired and finds someone else to attack. Another way is to hire mercs to deal with him. A third is so work together and kill him.

Jose Black
Amarr
Royal Amarr Institute
Posted - 2011.07.05 12:49:00 - [5]
 

  • Do not mine into jetcans or learn the hard way. I know this both sounds and is harsh.
  • If you mine into jetcans be prepared to lose your ore. Do it in a sparse populated area. Enjoy the thrill.
  • If someone decides to play around with you do not respond at all. Those people usually like the entertainment. If you do respond do it in a - for them disturbingly - kind way. This may even end in a nice conversation and farewell. Requires being a very level-headed player tho. However it is imo the most rewarding thing you can get out of the game if done right.

I'm afraid there's no tailor-made solution to your war issue. At least none I could think of. I'd try to just bore them to death:
  • Do not give them any opportunities to catch one of your members
  • Do not respond to any of their communication besides diplomatic talk form your corp diplomat.
  • Do by all means not swear at them if they shot you or talked to you in local chat or private conversations. Just close the conversations. Block them if you need.

DeMichael Crimson
Minmatar
Republic University
Posted - 2011.07.05 12:49:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: DeMichael Crimson on 05/07/2011 12:55:03

Yeah, it's a shame that there's arse-holes like that in this game.

However, your CEO should have warned you guys about the dangers of jet can mining. It's best to just not do any jet can mining at all, unless you have a Transport ship there picking up the Ore as soon as it's placed in the can.

Also never have more than 1 jet can out at a time unless you have a fleet of Mining and Transport ships with an armed escort of Combat ships sitting off grid.

The Combat ships jet a can with a bookmark in it for the Mining ships to fill up with Ore that the Transport ships empty. When a thief takes that can, the Combat ships can warp in rather quick and make an example of the thief.

Best to just get Giant Secure Containers and anchor them in 0.7 or lower security systems. Then there's no worry about Ore being stolen.

Otto VonFaart
The Super Dimension Fortress Macross
Posted - 2011.07.05 13:09:00 - [7]
 

As I said, the Corp member who was mining was new to the game... newer than me and I'd only been playing 3 days at that point. He didn't know any of the stuff you people have suggested that he know, as he had not had time in game enough to learn.

Suggestions to "just get over it" aren't good enough.

Some of us have very limited patience with *ssholes. I am one of them.

Jose Black
Amarr
Royal Amarr Institute
Posted - 2011.07.05 13:16:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Otto VonFaart
Suggestions to "just get over it" aren't good enough. Some of us have real life skills & resources that would permit us to actually find the grief player: real name, real address ~ and give him real grief.

Some of us have very limited patience with *ssholes. I am one of them.
That's where it gets tricky. If you speak out real life threads you act against the EULA and it may get you banned rather fast.
You have to handle it within game. You could trade a few plexes for mercenaries that show them who's boss. Personally I wouldn't want to spend rl money to counter hurt ingame feelings tho.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.07.05 13:20:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Malcanis on 05/07/2011 13:22:07
He can only "grief" you to the extent that you're willing to allow. In fact even as very new players you have any number of in game options for dealing with him.

If there are many of you and only one of him, then a fleet with 2-3 Griffins fitted with gravimetric ECMs plus whatever other "DPS" frigates you feel like bringing (Rifters, Incursers, Punishers, Kestrels) should be easily capable of dealing with any Drake. Who cares if you take a few losses? Your ships will cost under a mill. A rigged, T2-fitted Drake costs 30M or so to lose even after insurance.

You've been presented with a challenge that will provide gameplay and story for you, as well as an opportunity to learn about the game. Why not accept it instead of complaining about "grief"?

Otto VonFaart
The Super Dimension Fortress Macross
Posted - 2011.07.05 13:49:00 - [10]
 

I tend to agree with you, Malcanis. If the Corp member who initially encountered our griefer friend had just ignored him, it would have been a trivial non-issue. Except for the loss of a few cubic meters of ore, there would have been no loss.

But my Corp mate misunderstood the rules of engagement and was purposefully goaded into firing on the guy. The other issue is that my Corp mate was so impoverished that the amount of ore that the griefer stole represented his TOTAL wealth! ~ this member had every ship he had ever owned shot out from under him during the training/tutorial missions and had only freebie insurance replacement Ibis to fall back on. He felt, incorrectly it seems, that mining in a 1.0 SecZone was safe.

If nothing else, the rules should prevent griefing players who haven't completed at least half of the tutorial missions or some other minimal criteria. But then again, at least the griefer didn't pod him.

Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.07.05 14:03:00 - [11]
 

As has been stated, this is eve, and this is how the game is played. It is significantly colder and harsher than most other games out there. Sandbox game = you can do whatever you want... but it also means that other people can do whatever they want.

While some people are saying things in a stupid manner (you should know x and y), honestly it's true that your CEO and/or directors (who by your statements have been around for a while) should have warned you about these things.

Corporations in EVE are not your typical stupidly worthless "guilds" in other games. There are actual, tangible benefits (and consequences) to being in a player-run corporation.

solutions:
1. Learn to fight -- you've 16 members, he's got one. even if you're all in basic T1 fit frigates, stepping up and fighting AS A GROUP will give you a good chance to beat him.
2. If you don't have a group willing to fight... hide in station for a week, let the dec run out... he likely won't re-dec since you're not "fun" or "easy" targets.
3. Leave and go to an NPC corporation.

Biggest thing to take away from this is that you really shouldn't smacktalk in local (usually ends badly, as you've learned).

foksieloy
Minmatar
Rockets ponies and rainbows
Posted - 2011.07.05 14:08:00 - [12]
 

One note though: if he was can baited in one of the starter systems, that is petitionable. There is a specific rule that can flippin/baitin is not allowed in starter systems, as far as I know.

List of starter systems:
Amarr
  • Chaven - Imperial Academy

  • Sehmy - Hedion University

  • Emrayur - Royal Amarr Institute


Caldari
  • Kisogo - State War Academy

  • Todaki - School of Applied Knowledge

  • Amsen - Science and Trade Institute


Gallente
  • Duripant - Federal Navy Academy

  • Bourynes - University of Caille

  • Cistuvaert - Center for Advanced Studies


Minmatar
  • Ammold - Republic Military School

  • Ryddinjorn - Pator Tech School

  • Hulm - Republic University


Specific GM article

Otto VonFaart
The Super Dimension Fortress Macross
Posted - 2011.07.05 14:17:00 - [13]
 

Good to know... thanks. Would these be good systems to hang out in during a war? Or does the same rule not apply to declared warring parties?

Otto VonFaart
The Super Dimension Fortress Macross
Posted - 2011.07.05 14:19:00 - [14]
 

What you say makes a great deal of sense... and perhaps it's just my initial outrage at the kind of player who makes his in-game living by victimizing noobies. I have kept this Griefer's info and he will be on my "to do" list perpetually. (heh,heh ~ Once I can drive "Uberships" ~ there are "Uberships" in EVE, aren't there?)

Anyway, this brings to mind a question. What, if any, advantage is there in joining an NPC Corporation?

Otto
p.s. The griefer in question said he was gonna WarDec my Corp unless I paid him 10,000,000 ISK before I badmouthed him in local.

Quote:
Velicitia
Open Designs

Posted - 2011.07.05 14:03:00
As has been stated, this is eve, and this is how the game is played. It is significantly colder and harsher than most other games out there. Sandbox game = you can do whatever you want... but it also means that other people can do whatever they want.

While some people are saying things in a stupid manner (you should know x and y), honestly it's true that your CEO and/or directors (who by your statements have been around for a while) should have warned you about these things.

Corporations in EVE are not your typical stupidly worthless "guilds" in other games. There are actual, tangible benefits (and consequences) to being in a player-run corporation.

solutions:
1. Learn to fight -- you've 16 members, he's got one. even if you're all in basic T1 fit frigates, stepping up and fighting AS A GROUP will give you a good chance to beat him.
2. If you don't have a group willing to fight... hide in station for a week, let the dec run out... he likely won't re-dec since you're not "fun" or "easy" targets.
3. Leave and go to an NPC corporation.

Biggest thing to take away from this is that you really shouldn't smacktalk in local (usually ends badly, as you've learned).

foksieloy
Minmatar
Rockets ponies and rainbows
Posted - 2011.07.05 14:22:00 - [15]
 

It only protects you from being can baited, as far as i know. If a war is declared, you are free game, and can be killed everywhere.

Note that if you are in the NPC corp, you cannot be wardeced. But, then you have that 10% (or whatever it is) tax.

Choices, choices... :)

Louis deGuerre
Gallente
Malevolence.
Posted - 2011.07.05 14:36:00 - [16]
 

A reaction like yours is what players like that live for.
While I'm not one of them I would not have it any other way. This is EVE not Hello Kitty Online Razz

Some of my most enjoyable conflicts have been with griefers.
Ah, the sweet joy of making the war mutual, hunting them into docking in a station and setting up a camping rota.
Camping them with 10 man newbie gangs in their station 24/7 for 3 weeks.
The ransom paid to stop our wardec and eventual disbanding of his corp as his members got tired of being camped to death.
Good times.

If all else fails, you can leave the corp in the hands of an alt and join an NPC corp. They can not be wardecced.
He can still suicide gank you but that's rather extreme. Eventually the griefer will get bored.

Otto VonFaart
The Super Dimension Fortress Macross
Posted - 2011.07.05 15:28:00 - [17]
 

Thanks for the good advice

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.07.05 15:33:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Otto VonFaart
Good to know... thanks. Would these be good systems to hang out in during a war? Or does the same rule not apply to declared warring parties?



Forming a player corp is hauling up a banner and declaring that you're ready to play with the big boys on equal terms. You might want to consider that if your corp can't defend itself, then you should join one that can.

In short: no, war targets can attack you anywhere.

I'thari
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.05 15:48:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: I''thari on 05/07/2011 15:51:14
Edited by: I''thari on 05/07/2011 15:50:03
Originally by: Otto VonFaart
Suggestions to "just get over it" aren't good enough.

Some of us have very limited patience with *ssholes. I am one of them.
Just FYI: EVE provides many freedoms, being ******* is one of them, but if you will behave like one (yes, calling people names in local is exactly it) - be prepared to deal with consequences... which remindes me about this and this.

That's why joining "all-newbie" corps is generaly a bad idea.

Originally by: Otto VonFaart
Good to know... thanks. Would these be good systems to hang out in during a war? Or does the same rule not apply to declared warring parties?

FYI: "can baiting" is when you drop a can with 1 unit of ammo (or whatever) in hopes that someone will pick it up to grab aggro (and with only this purpose). Everything else is fair game... tho continious suicide ganks of newbies might actually count as griefing, but there's hardly a reason to do those.

Originally by: Otto VonFaart
(heh,heh ~ Once I can drive "Uberships" ~ there are "Uberships" in EVE, aren't there?)
No, not really, plus it's main misconception about PVP - you only need propulsion jaming 1, actually.

Originally by: Otto VonFaart
Anyway, this brings to mind a question. What, if any, advantage is there in joining an NPC Corporation?
NPC corporation or palyer corporation? Advantage of NPC corp is that you can't be wardecced... plus always random people to chat with... guess that's about it.

Otto VonFaart
The Super Dimension Fortress Macross
Posted - 2011.07.05 15:56:00 - [20]
 

yes... and that's exactly the sort of info that any noob lacks

Gigante Toralen
Posted - 2011.07.05 16:17:00 - [21]
 

I'm a new player myself, and I knew on day one that you don't jetcan mine. If you do jetcan mine, then expect it to get flipped. If it gets flipped don't shoot they guy that did it, because it makes it okay for him to shoot back.

Your friend screwed all of those up.

Spend some time reading the forums and play guides before starting a new game. Should be standard practice.

Easy Target
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe.
Posted - 2011.07.05 16:18:00 - [22]
 

16 of you, and one of him?

Read up on PvP as has been stated.
Especially EW, such as the Griffin

You dont even need to kill him, just keep him jammed and warp scrambled in a belt and just sit and wait till he logs off. When he logs back in do it again.

If your CEO / XO are experienced they will know what to do. If they dont, or wont do what needs to be done, then maybe it isnt a corp to be in.

Just 5 or 6 very low SP Griffin pilots will seriously annoy a solo player, especially if he is foolish enough to always fly caldari (makes jammer choice easier)



- fight back and give him a bloody nose
- sit it out in station
- drop back to NPC corp
- quit

The last three gain nothing

Otto VonFaart
The Super Dimension Fortress Macross
Posted - 2011.07.05 16:55:00 - [23]
 

I said in my post... it was a Corp mate of mine who had the initial issue with this Griefer. Not me... I didn't shoot him. I read the forums and the guide for weeks before I purchased the game. Doesn't mean I can't make mistakes... like badmouthing the Griefer in open channel. And I know our Corp can & will fight back.

Akisa Damaar
Posted - 2011.07.05 17:31:00 - [24]
 

What you have discribed is EVE's business model: a game for sociopath' and griefers.

Almost any other mmo forbids behaviour like your corp mate experienced, which means there's a market for a game which actually allows this kind of behaviour. EVE might not have the subscriber numbers of some other games, but it is successful enough in its niche and hence CCP won't change the rules. They make a living by running a harsh and cold game like this.

It's really this simple: Handle it or quit EVE and find a friendlier game.

Ashgoz Kouvo
Posted - 2011.07.05 18:00:00 - [25]
 

A quote from Blade sums it up pretty well:

Zoe: Why can't you just be nice?
Blade: Because the world isn't nice.

K'iran
Spirit of EVE
Posted - 2011.07.05 18:27:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: K''iran on 05/07/2011 18:30:10
Many good replies in this thread, some less good ones. I'll try to add my own (and possibly state what is already said).


Joining or creating a corporation has more impact than, say, making a guild in "the MMO which shall not be named", as you open yourself up for wardecs, infiltration, crappy corp members or a CEO trying to take advantage of you. All that is allowed gameplay and this game is full of stuff like that, both on small scale (like you have now) as on large scale where thousands of players in an alliance face a similar issue. EVE is mostly about reaching yours goals and taking what you want, preferably from others.

EVE is an MMO where actions can have repercussions and where other players can affect your gameplay. As a newbie everyone has to go through that experience and start to realise this. So if you start yelling, cussing and shouting people might take offence to that and either wardec you or find other ways to make you squeal more, especially if you start using big words about how you will get friends to back you up etc. Then that person goes "lets see if you bite as much as you bark". So don't do that ever, never bark more than you can bite, because someone will come along and call your bluff.

Also, if your corpmate was filling several cans I do hope your CEO chastised him for doing so, if he didn't (or actually explained how jetcan mining works but didn't explain the possible dangers) then he's, frankly, not fit to be leading a corp and you should probably find another one.


Done with the lecturing, what are your current options.

Tbh, not much. if you're all like a week old you're probably still struggling with getting used to the UI and all that so the normal "learn to fight" mantra is a bit much here. And the "if you team up you can take him" is true, but that requires some form of understanding, and training, teamwork first, which you haven't. Your options are these:

1) leave the corp, use the time to read and learn about EVE then find a corp that actually makes sense (ie, you learn from it and they have the means to take care of problems)

2) fly around in small fast frigates and just evade your single attacker, keep doing what you're doing in the mean time, move a few jumps away (preferably a system with just a few people in it) and keep your eye on local chat to see if he enters system, if he does move elsewhere.

3) team up in frigates like griffins and stuff and just annoy the crap out of him by jamming him, this teaches you stuff about combat and all that, expect to lose a few frigates but just laugh about those loses and count them as a worthwhile trade for gaining experience.

4) go do something else this week, perhaps get on the test server and get used to combat


Been checking on your attacker a bit, and tbh he's not much of a threat. His losses show that he's not all that knowledgeable and his kills are beyond pathetic. He is not this dangerous boogie man who is going to ruin your eve career, he's just some idiot with half a clue.

If you want some more help send me a mail ingame.

Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.07.05 18:37:00 - [27]
 

Good news is the guys who flip newb cans are the lowest of the low on the PVP scale. If they were worth a damn they'd be picking fights that might generate either a challenge or a profit.


K'iran
Spirit of EVE
Posted - 2011.07.05 18:51:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Skex Relbore
Good news is the guys who flip newb cans are the lowest of the low on the PVP scale. If they were worth a damn they'd be picking fights that might generate either a challenge or a profit.




Good news is that you don't have much of a clue, there can be much fun and profit in can flipping.

Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.07.05 19:03:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: K'iran
Originally by: Skex Relbore
Good news is the guys who flip newb cans are the lowest of the low on the PVP scale. If they were worth a damn they'd be picking fights that might generate either a challenge or a profit.




Good news is that you don't have much of a clue, there can be much fun and profit in can flipping.


From a newb mining in an Ibis?

K'iran
Spirit of EVE
Posted - 2011.07.05 19:09:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: K''iran on 05/07/2011 19:10:07
Originally by: Skex Relbore
Originally by: K'iran
Originally by: Skex Relbore
Good news is the guys who flip newb cans are the lowest of the low on the PVP scale. If they were worth a damn they'd be picking fights that might generate either a challenge or a profit.




Good news is that you don't have much of a clue, there can be much fun and profit in can flipping.


From a newb mining in an Ibis?


Not from an ibis itself no, but can flipping in and of itself can be quite profitable. And actually, if there's corp members of that ibis in local (or you expect that 2 yearold CEO to come to the rescue) even flipping an Ibis can result in profit and an interesting fight.

Is attacking a few week old miner a bit sad? Yes it is, but again with more corp members in local who knows what they turn up with, could be a 3 week old idiot in an armour tanking CNR bought with plex. If you actually do this high sec stuff, and use a ship scanner a bit, you'll be both amazed as depressed by the crappola (and sometimes cost) people fit their ships with.


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