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Tarryn Nightstorm
Minmatar
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
Posted - 2011.07.06 09:53:00 - [61]
 

(Sighs, smiles gently) This only proves what hypocrites even us "demi-Deities" can be.

Just like the humans you wish you weren't, but can never escape being, eh?

But, by all means, carry on: This is nothing if not comical.

Maria Crases
Posted - 2011.07.06 12:51:00 - [62]
 

Edited by: Maria Crases on 06/07/2011 13:05:04
I think people underestimate the value in the mere fact this event is taking place.

The Amarrian culture is a very trial by fire mindset but it does not mean they are beyond reason or reproach.

Given the fact that we have an Empress on the throne thats been taking great strides in relation to the last thousand years is huge and people do not give credit where credit is due.

As Lord Kithrus often told me and you.

"We just have a poor PR dept."

Half Cocked Jack
Posted - 2011.07.06 13:19:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Maria Crases
Edited by: Maria Crases on 06/07/2011 13:05:04
I think people underestimate the value in the mere fact this event is taking place.

The Amarrian culture is a very trial by fire mindset but it does not mean they are beyond reason or reproach.

Given the fact that we have an Empress on the throne thats been taking great strides in relation to the last thousand years is huge and people do not give credit where credit is due.

As Lord Kithrus often told me and you.

"We just have a poor PR dept."


Jamyl's ascension was a great stride to Jamyl and Jamyl alone. Having your entire Empire cowed into accepting the rule of a strongman with a superweapon in direct violation of political procedure is not a step in any direction but backwards. I'm not expressing this to be inflammatory, but merely to say that there are other, better places to point if you want to indicate your Empire's progress.

Raphael Saint
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.07.06 13:25:00 - [64]
 

Why this is still being discussed is beyond me. I believe Mr. Ellis hit closest to the truth.

Originally by: Norrin Ellis
Tolerance is a means to an end. It is not, however, a desirable end all its own.


It's a means to and end that no one here with the actual capability of acheiving their goals cares to use. Enjoy the love-in, the rest of us will actually be accomplishing something.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.06 13:48:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Half ****ed Jack


Jamyl's ascension was a great stride to Jamyl and Jamyl alone. Having your entire Empire cowed into accepting the rule of a strongman with a superweapon in direct violation of political procedure is not a step in any direction but backwards. I'm not expressing this to be inflammatory, but merely to say that there are other, better places to point if you want to indicate your Empire's progress.


You appear to have confused the Empress with Shakor.

Tamur Theorabies
Gallente Independent Progressive Alternative
Posted - 2011.07.06 13:56:00 - [66]
 

Formal logic has been invented to help in settling disagreements. Let me remind the pilots here of a few useful tools:

The Way that Affirms by Affirming:
First premise: If it is Written, then A.
Second premise: It is Written.
Final conclusion: Therefore, A.

The Way that Denies by Denying:
First premise: If A, then it is Written.
Second premise: It is not Written.
Final conclusion: Therefore, not A.

The Law of Inclusion:
Major premise: All Whatever are A.
Minor premise: All B are Whatever.
Final conclusion: All B are A.

Nick Bete
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2011.07.06 14:17:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Half ****ed Jack


Jamyl's ascension was a great stride to Jamyl and Jamyl alone. Having your entire Empire cowed into accepting the rule of a strongman with a superweapon in direct violation of political procedure is not a step in any direction but backwards. I'm not expressing this to be inflammatory, but merely to say that there are other, better places to point if you want to indicate your Empire's progress.


You appear to have confused the Empress with Shakor.


And you Blake appear to be talking out of your, umm... other orifice.

Shakor was a duly elected member of the parliament and head of the Brutor tribe, then named Prime Minister before the parliament was dissolved. He didn't grab power at gunpoint (or in the case of Jamyl, stolen ancient technology obtained through illicit means).

It's always so comical to hear an imperial attempt to lecture others (who don't live under an all-powerful theocratic monarch) on democracy and the rights of the people. Rolling Eyes

When your people hold an election you may lecture us Blake. Until then please keep all your stinking orifices shut.

Half Cocked Jack
Posted - 2011.07.06 14:39:00 - [68]
 

Edited by: Half ****ed Jack on 06/07/2011 14:40:50
Originally by: Nick Bete
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Half ****ed Jack


Jamyl's ascension was a great stride to Jamyl and Jamyl alone. Having your entire Empire cowed into accepting the rule of a strongman with a superweapon in direct violation of political procedure is not a step in any direction but backwards. I'm not expressing this to be inflammatory, but merely to say that there are other, better places to point if you want to indicate your Empire's progress.


You appear to have confused the Empress with Shakor.


And you Blake appear to be talking out of your, umm... other orifice.

Shakor was a duly elected member of the parliament and head of the Brutor tribe, then named Prime Minister before the parliament was dissolved. He didn't grab power at gunpoint (or in the case of Jamyl, stolen ancient technology obtained through illicit means).

It's always so comical to hear an imperial attempt to lecture others (who don't live under an all-powerful theocratic monarch) on democracy and the rights of the people. Rolling Eyes

When your people hold an election you may lecture us Blake. Until then please keep all your stinking orifices shut.


Thank you for that explanation, Pilot Bete. You have more tolerance than I. If Admiral Blake had troubled to write more than a one-line "no you" response, I might have responded with something similar albiet less optimistic. Bersonally, I share Blake's dim view of Shakor's rise to and execution of power. There are too many questions when it comes to that man, and his mercurial ascent is more a testament to the fear and bloodthirst of the constituency that put him into power than anything else. For what it is worth, though, the Republic did ask for its strongman.

But in response to your petty little contrivance of a jibe, Admiral Blake, I never claimed that Shakor was any more of a step forward for the Minmatar than Jamyl has been for the Amarr. Jamyl was the topic specifically being addressed, and I was unaware that I needed to preface any truthful statement about her with a tangential counterbalance to keep from upsetting the delicate equilibrium of your sensibilities.

Tolerance...diplomacy...such laborious causes.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.07.06 14:45:00 - [69]
 

Edited by: Raze Valadeus on 06/07/2011 14:47:28
Originally by: Half ****ed Jack
Originally by: Maria Crases
Edited by: Maria Crases on 06/07/2011 13:05:04
I think people underestimate the value in the mere fact this event is taking place.

The Amarrian culture is a very trial by fire mindset but it does not mean they are beyond reason or reproach.

Given the fact that we have an Empress on the throne thats been taking great strides in relation to the last thousand years is huge and people do not give credit where credit is due.

As Lord Kithrus often told me and you.

"We just have a poor PR dept."


Jamyl's ascension was a great stride to Jamyl and Jamyl alone. Having your entire Empire cowed into accepting the rule of a strongman with a superweapon in direct violation of political procedure is not a step in any direction but backwards. I'm not expressing this to be inflammatory, but merely to say that there are other, better places to point if you want to indicate your Empire's progress.


With all due respect, your statement is inaccurate.

The Empress was accepted by the Theology Council and all the Heir families. I am sure you are aware that the Empire is a theocracy, in which the leader is considered ordained by God. The acceptance by the Theology Council and the Heir families of her ascension represents an understanding and acceptance of her ordainment.

While unorthodox, the "political procedure" you claim we abandoned in her ascension is secondary to the will and ordainment of God. It was not abandoned, it performed its intended purpose.

The Empire was not cowed into accepting her rule, her rule was accepted willingly and recognized as being favored by God. Whatever dissension or rumors you suspect are abounding about her ascension are internal affairs handled by the Empire and its citizens and are not open for public discussion.

We stand united under our Empress.
We stand united under God.

There has been no steps backward in this regard.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.06 16:16:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Nick Bete
Until then please keep all your stinking orifices shut.


So much for tolerance.

Nola Doyle
NeuroGEN
Posted - 2011.07.06 16:34:00 - [71]
 

Perhaps you should take heed to this tiny grain of wisdom:
Originally by: Norrin Ellis
Tolerance is not a virtue unto itself, as some seem to believe. Indeed, the very word means to bear a minor nuisance. One tolerates a headache, but one does not tolerate subversion of national or ethnic cultural tradition or enslavement of one's race. Certain things go together like oil and water; the one simply cannot tolerate the other.


I tolerate my fellow capsule pilots despite their ignorance, in the hope that one day an epiphany will stir them from their slumber and allow them to recognize the universe does not conform to religious dogma or the whims of nationalist dictators.

Natelia
Minmatar
Ataraxia Pharmacies
Posted - 2011.07.06 16:45:00 - [72]
 

Edited by: Natelia on 06/07/2011 17:12:25
I love my Admiral Blake collectible toy even more now.

By the way, Admiral Blake, I know you took a dim view on my participation in the Top Model competition. Could you please forgive me? I realize now it was a foolish mistake to try and pursue a life of glamour; only hard work pays off in the end.

Ryven Krennel
Caldari
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.07.06 17:08:00 - [73]
 

Did anyone else find it humorous that half the posts tell Amarrians to free slaves and acknowledge errors and Revan thinks Amarrians should stick with tradition? All in the same thread. If Amarrians act more liberal, people complain they're not Amarrian enough. When they act conservative, people call them bigots and racist slavers.

Also, the Knighthood is an organization that, while involved closely with the 24IC, focuses on taking back what was lost post Elder invasion and preventing future losses. Working with the 24th does not mean we are the 24th. I should think that would be an easy distinction to understand.

All this other garbage about who's more qualified to teach religion and such is only so much hogwash.

As for tolerance, well, good luck. There's about as much of that going around as peace, and like good intentions, tolerance is often found thrown about by swindlers or fools. My cynicism aside, good luck. Perhaps with more tolerance, we can fight over something else, like money and women.

Crucifire
Securitas Protectorate
Concordiat Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.06 20:00:00 - [74]
 

I can't tolerate tolerance.

Dirk Smacker
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
Posted - 2011.07.06 23:55:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Kazzzi
Will the controversial religious justification for the Amarr Empire's imperial expansionism be condemned at this event for it's intolerance of the non-faithful and of non-Amarrians?



Sure, it is very important to be intolerant of others on a day of tolerance.


Alain Octirant
Gallente
Federal Nationalist Party
Posted - 2011.07.07 04:17:00 - [76]
 

I find it revealing that a thread about tolerance devolves into a slanging match between Amarrians about their 'God'

Additionally, some warlike words from the Caldari, who justify their illegal occupation of Luminaire VII with some sophistry or equivocation.

When I said the Caldari and Gallente were brothers, I meant in the sense that the Caldari were like the prat younger brother, eternally jealous of the achievements of the older and willing to make friends with local bullies and other unsavoury types - yes, you know who, in order to make himself feel tough.

But, I tolerate you all the same. Isn't that what you were going for, Tamur?


Bataav
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
Posted - 2011.07.07 04:47:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Alain Octirant
I find it revealing that a thread about tolerance devolves into a slanging match between Amarrians about their 'God'

Additionally, some warlike words from the Caldari, who justify their illegal occupation of Luminaire VII with some sophistry or equivocation.

When I said the Caldari and Gallente were brothers, I meant in the sense that the Caldari were like the prat younger brother, eternally jealous of the achievements of the older and willing to make friends with local bullies and other unsavoury types - yes, you know who, in order to make himself feel tough.

But, I tolerate you all the same. Isn't that what you were going for, Tamur?


If we're going to apply the sibling rivalry analogy here isn't it the case that the younger brother usually privately looks up to his older counterpart, and while striving to forge his own path in the world still wants recognition and respect for his achievements?

At the same time the older sibling endlessly resents his younger brother for denying him the sole attention he enjoyed as an only child, conveniently forgetting the mistakes from his own past while deriding those of his brother as evidence of his innevitable failings.

When trying to resolve the disputes between nations and peoples, or between bickering brothers, understanding and tolerance is indeed the key.

Mr Theorabies I applaud your efforts.

Dirk Smacker
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
Posted - 2011.07.07 14:01:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Alain Octirant
I find it revealing that a thread about tolerance devolves into a slanging match between Amarrians about their 'God'

Additionally, some warlike words from the Caldari, who justify their illegal occupation of Luminaire VII with some sophistry or equivocation.

When I said the Caldari and Gallente were brothers, I meant in the sense that the Caldari were like the prat younger brother, eternally jealous of the achievements of the older and willing to make friends with local bullies and other unsavoury types - yes, you know who, in order to make himself feel tough.

But, I tolerate you all the same. Isn't that what you were going for, Tamur?


That last sentence contradicts your statement. You "tolerate" us because you are forced to.

If your party had the chance, it would eradicate every last Caldari from the galaxy. It would also drive out all those Matari immigrants who refuse to assimilate into your culture.

Ava Starfire
Minmatar
Teraa Matar
Posted - 2011.07.07 15:20:00 - [79]
 

Intolerance is a problem all people have, whether Matari or Amarrian, Gallentean or Caldari. Everyone points fingers, jumps, and yells.

Including me.

I find it very, very hard to not hate everything about the empire, its religion, and its culture. I fight with myself, internally, time and again, whether or not I wish to watch the whole thing burn. I fight over whether or not I can tolerate its existance.

I can tolerate the Amarr people. I can even tolerate their religion. I cannot tolerate what they use it to justify, nor the unanswered wrongs that the empire has commited, no matter how long ago they may have been. A war criminal is subject to prosecution as long as they are alive, and their government is subject to the same as long as it exists.

I cannot tolerate the fact that the dominant culture in the Empire, and those in power, refuse to even admit they commited any wrongs, against the Matari or anyone else, and act like genocide and slavery are good, just, and right, simply because they are better than everyone else.

I feel that at this time, a "day of tolerance" is asking the impossible and undeserved. By doing so, by saying "hey, we're ok with you" we are saying "hey, we're ok with all the crap you do".

I, for one, am not "Ok" with the Empire, as it currently is.

Andreus Ixiris
Gallente
Mixed Metaphor
Posted - 2011.07.07 15:23:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Ava Starfire
I find it very, very hard to not hate everything about the empire, its religion, and its culture.


This is normal and healthy. Don't worry about it.

Exie
The Suicide Express
Twilight Federation
Posted - 2011.07.07 16:21:00 - [81]
 

Tolerance is just a tool people use to try to force someone's view on you, or another group of people.

Should I be tolerant while an entire culture forces children unable to decide for them selves to become addicted to a hideous drug, whose sole purpose is to remove the free will of it's user?

Should I be tolerant while an entire culture places the lives of sentient individuals, and indeed if given the option entire cultures, as merely an item to be bartered and sold?

Tolerance at the cost of lives, and freedom is not something I ever want to have.

Syn Callibri
Minmatar
21st Eridani Lighthorse
Posted - 2011.07.07 17:55:00 - [82]
 

"Day of Tolerance" what an interesting ideal...tell me does tolerance extend to our own kind as well when it comes to "what makes us Matari" or not?

Regards,


Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.07.07 17:58:00 - [83]
 

Edited by: Raze Valadeus on 07/07/2011 18:17:20
Originally by: Exie
Tolerance is just a tool people use to try to force someone's view on you, or another group of people.

Should I be tolerant while an entire culture forces children unable to decide for them selves to become addicted to a hideous drug, whose sole purpose is to remove the free will of it's user?


If it is Vitoxin you refer to, then your assessment is completely erroneous. Vitoxin is not used by an "entire culture," in fact, it is not even commonly used. Even less so in children.

That said, there are many who do not make use of Vitoxin at all, and its use is almost universally reserved for very specific purposes. (This is not a justification for its use, it is merely a factual clarification of otherwise falsified information.)

Originally by: Exie
Should I be tolerant while an entire culture places the lives of sentient individuals, and indeed if given the option entire cultures, as merely an item to be bartered and sold?


Who are you referring to with this statement and where are you getting the information from?

Ava Starfire
Minmatar
Teraa Matar
Posted - 2011.07.07 18:24:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Syn Callibri
"Day of Tolerance" what an interesting ideal...tell me does tolerance extend to our own kind as well when it comes to "what makes us Matari" or not?

Regards,




As I am well aware who this little gem is directed at... I dont remember ever saying such a thing?

If you have a problem with me, maybe bring it up to me in private? Last I remember, our difficulties had more to do with inappropriate behaviour in a public place, which, I might add, I did apologize for my response to.

I suppose if you wish to act like a child who's toy has been taken away, feel free to do it in public. Dont let me stop you.

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.07.07 19:40:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Raze Valadeus

Originally by: Exie
Should I be tolerant while an entire culture places the lives of sentient individuals, and indeed if given the option entire cultures, as merely an item to be bartered and sold?


Who are you referring to with this statement and where are you getting the information from?



Might be the Cartel.

Syn Callibri
Minmatar
21st Eridani Lighthorse
Posted - 2011.07.07 19:47:00 - [86]
 

Edited by: Syn Callibri on 07/07/2011 19:49:46
Originally by: Ava Starfire
Originally by: Syn Callibri
"Day of Tolerance" what an interesting ideal...tell me does tolerance extend to our own kind as well when it comes to "what makes us Matari" or not?

Regards,




As I am well aware who this little gem is directed at... I dont remember ever saying such a thing?

If you have a problem with me, maybe bring it up to me in private? Last I remember, our difficulties had more to do with inappropriate behaviour in a public place, which, I might add, I did apologize for my response to.

I suppose if you wish to act like a child who's toy has been taken away, feel free to do it in public. Dont let me stop you.


Actually Ava...it wasn't directed at you in the least since I don't recall you saying anything like that myself. If however you had a reason to think it was well, I can't help that.





Nick Bete
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2011.07.07 21:25:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Nick Bete
Until then please keep all your stinking orifices shut.


So much for tolerance.


Sorry I just don't tolerate pompous fools like yourself well. I'll try better next time.

Tamur Theorabies
Gallente Independent Progressive Alternative
Posted - 2011.07.09 00:42:00 - [88]
 

The preliminary program of the event has been compiled.
The Day of Tolerance is held between 14:00-04:00 New Eden General Time.
The program looks as follows:

02PM/14:00 Opening
02PM/14:00 Ms. M. Crases
01PM/15:00 "Meaning of Tolerance" discussion
04PM/16:00 "Immigration and Acculturation" discussion
06PM/18:00 at the latest - Dr. N. J. Doyle
10PM/22:00 - Prof. A. Octirant
11PM/23:00 "Roadmap for Harmonious Co-Existence" discussion

Additions and changes to the program are likely. On behalf of the organizers, we warmly welcome everyone to join the "Day of Tolerance" FTL channel on Saturday 9th of July.

Maria Crases
Posted - 2011.07.09 20:05:00 - [89]
 

I'm suprised and pleased to say dispite all the negitive posting in this thread that the meeting is going very well.

I hope more people attend before its done.

James Syagrius
Gallente
Advent Ltd.
Posted - 2011.07.09 20:44:00 - [90]
 

Edited by: James Syagrius on 09/07/2011 23:06:45
It was a day, but tolerance?

I have often thought that many confuse acceptance for tolerance. When you disagree or dislike someone, and don’t bash his or her head in because of that difference or dislike, you are being tolerant.

When you expect someone to love and “accept” you despite of, or in spite of who you are, or what you represent… that is asking for more than tolerance.

When I heard Tamur speak today I have to admit my jaw dropped.

~holo recording starts~

[ 2011.07.09 17:11:13 ] Tamur Theorabies > I'd like to take this opportunity to say a few words about immigration and acculturation issues.
[ 2011.07.09 17:11:33 ] Tamur Theorabies > Namely, Tolle V, where I was born, had a mixture of various races.
[ 2011.07.09 17:11:47 ] Tamur Theorabies > There were Gallenteans, Intakis, Jin-Meis, Mannars, Caldari, Minmatars... people from all sorts of backgrounds.
[ 2011.07.09 17:12:10 ] Tamur Theorabies > That place sure had lots of immigrants, all over the place.
[ 2011.07.09 17:13:00 ] Tamur Theorabies > One thing I can say for sure is that people with Amarr roots were the ones who were faced with the most severe prejudices.
[ 2011.07.09 17:13:27 ] Tamur Theorabies > At best, one would infer from the small remarks and gestures, that we were persona non-grata.
[ 2011.07.09 17:13:50 ] Tamur Theorabies > Often there was outright name calling, ostracizing, shunning.
[ 2011.07.09 17:14:06 ] Victoria Valadeus > /emote listens a bit more keenly than she has thus far, genuinely interested
[ 2011.07.09 17:14:14 ] Tamur Theorabies > You can imagine that wasn't not a good environment to be.
[ 2011.07.09 17:14:37 ] Tamur Theorabies > For that reason we preferred to stay on our own outpost in Aydoteux.
[ 2011.07.09 17:15:02 ] Tamur Theorabies > We just tried to do our own thing, without caring about the unfriendly, unwelcoming atmosphere.
[ 2011.07.09 17:15:26 ] Tamur Theorabies > Later on, when I started my political career, I was faced with similar issues.
[ 2011.07.09 17:15:46 ] Tamur Theorabies > Some former collaborators of our party turned away.
[ 2011.07.09 17:16:08 ] Tamur Theorabies > Many times my background and faith were questioned, even laughed at.
[ 2011.07.09 17:16:34 ] Tamur Theorabies > It makes me wonder, why do we want to live like this?
[ 2011.07.09 17:17:21 ] Tamur Theorabies > I challenge all the captains to consider, what could we do individually to change things for the better?
[ 2011.07.09 17:17:44 ] Tamur Theorabies > A splash of understanding and positive attitude would help a lot.
[ 2011.07.09 17:18:08 ] Tamur Theorabies > Maybe even an apology for the people of Amarr roots who have always had it tough!
[ 2011.07.09 17:18:19 ] James Syagrius > /emote disconnects


~holo recording ends~

**Inflammatory commentary removed after further reflection.


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