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Olvel
Posted - 2011.07.06 01:25:00 - [211]
 

Originally by: AkJon Ferguson
1. Lack of a coherent message by the protesters.
...
6. EVE's ingrained culture of trolls

Seriously. What was the protest even about? The "chief complaint" seemed to change from one day to the next. And half the folks complaining seemed to be yelling just to hear their own voices.

The "protestors" did a great job of attacking folks that were trying to help them, labeling anyone with a different opinion as a fanboy or a CCP alt, and turning allies into enemies.

I tried to participate in a rational discussion of the flaws of the Incarna update... But after a day of listening to those "protestors" rage indiscriminately - I just wanted them all to shut up and go away so I could go back to enjoying my game.

Jonathan Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.06 01:33:00 - [212]
 

Originally by: Olvel
Originally by: AkJon Ferguson
1. Lack of a coherent message by the protesters.
...
6. EVE's ingrained culture of trolls

Seriously. What was the protest even about? The "chief complaint" seemed to change from one day to the next. And half the folks complaining seemed to be yelling just to hear their own voices.

The "protestors" did a great job of attacking folks that were trying to help them, labeling anyone with a different opinion as a fanboy or a CCP alt, and turning allies into enemies.

I tried to participate in a rational discussion of the flaws of the Incarna update... But after a day of listening to those "protestors" rage indiscriminately - I just wanted them all to shut up and go away so I could go back to enjoying my game.

Could you give me a rough example of how that discussion might have gone? Because if somebody with honest grievances was turned off by what the protesters did then certainly we can learn from that.

Would you have been willing to unsubscribe (which is the only thing that CCP pays attention to) if you had felt like the protesters had respected your point of view more?

Ard UnjiiGo
Meatshield Bastards
Posted - 2011.07.06 01:33:00 - [213]
 

Came expecting David Letterman.

Left thinking cynicism is too easy.

Jonathan Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.06 01:38:00 - [214]
 

Originally by: Ard UnjiiGo
Came expecting David Letterman.

Left thinking cynicism is too easy.


I used to love Dave. Then he went all 9/11 bat**** xenophobic for a while. Now I watch him nightly because the old lady likes him, but his heart's not in it anymore. He just mails it in.

Do you consider the protesters more cynical or the fanbois more cynical? At least the protesters still think they might be able to make a difference ...

(BTW, how you liking the meatshields? I know Eloha (I think he quit bastards) and jade (not sure about him.) Hope it's working out for you.)

Mars Theran
Caldari
EVE Rogues
EVE Rogues Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.06 01:42:00 - [215]
 

Originally by: Olvel
Originally by: AkJon Ferguson
1. Lack of a coherent message by the protesters.
...
6. EVE's ingrained culture of trolls

Seriously. What was the protest even about? The "chief complaint" seemed to change from one day to the next. And half the folks complaining seemed to be yelling just to hear their own voices.

The "protestors" did a great job of attacking folks that were trying to help them, labeling anyone with a different opinion as a fanboy or a CCP alt, and turning allies into enemies.

I tried to participate in a rational discussion of the flaws of the Incarna update... But after a day of listening to those "protestors" rage indiscriminately - I just wanted them all to shut up and go away so I could go back to enjoying my game.


I felt much the same way. I attempted to rationalize with them, find out what their chief problems were, and even operated as a mediator of sorts, trying to get them to rage less and clearly and concisely define their problems with Incarna and MT. None of it worked, and I ended up finding that a number of people, (by day 2), actually were rational and had valid points to make about various issues they had with the expansion and changes.

It was hard to pick them out though, with them providing the minority of posts in over 55 pages of threads, some as many as 300 pages long. I did find them though, and even agreed to some extent with their issues. As I said, some had a certain validity. I ended up ignoring the majority of threads and posts by the end of day 2 and was consistently irritated at the state of the forums, to such an extent that the Jita protests actually brought a sense of relief.

Worse, was the blatant disregard for developers and rational players, as well as those who brought forth opinions contrary to the accepted norm amongst the flamers and protesters. If not disregard, then it was references of Dev Alts, trolls, and certain unpleasantries directed at those who were trying to calm the situation down. And then there were the MMO review sites, blatantly trashing CCP and the Dev's based on leaked information that wasn't at the time verified as authentic.

So what if it was!? Out of context it seemed a problem sure, but it wasn't meant to be read outside of CCP or taken out of context in that fashion. Lot of fluff about nothing. And here we are, with people like the OP ranting on days after it's settled to most everyone's satisfaction. Most of the forums have quieted down though.

Just a few malcontents, and this one has been spamming multiple threads in an attempt to gain attention, and maybe set off another riot. Can't say I'm impressed.

Throw away 50 Million dollars worth of development, or make a few adjustments to make the player base happy, for the most part?! I think the answer is obvious, and I'm happy with the way it turned out.

The valid issues were addressed as I see it. Even if they were fluff, (and I think some were), they were addressed. Everyone happy now?

No?!? Confused

Jonathan Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.06 01:48:00 - [216]
 

Originally by: Mars Theran
I attempted to rationalize with them ...


I think we found your problem right there. If I want rationalization, I'll talk to CCP, they excel at that.

If I want reason, there's only my fellow protesters to talk to.


Pesky LaRue
Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2011.07.06 01:48:00 - [217]
 

Edited by: Pesky LaRue on 06/07/2011 01:49:34
Originally by: San Severina
Why do you think?

I mean seriously & in all honesty, why do you think a character that has refused to yield to enormous trolling & abuse (none of it making much sense or based in fact), against continued reasonable, informed & valid arguments has been banned?

Looks pretty obvious to me.
for, as he himself has said in this very thread, posting links to a particularly off-colour adult website (which was very informative, don't get me wrong, but THAT'S what he got himself banned for).

Yup, that's your folk-hero, right there.

You certainly don't come off like a bitter, paranoid, delusional, stalker fan-boy.

Jonathan Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.06 01:54:00 - [218]
 

Edited by: Jonathan Ferguson on 06/07/2011 01:56:45
Originally by: Pesky LaRue
Edited by: Pesky LaRue on 06/07/2011 01:49:34
Originally by: San Severina
Why do you think?

I mean seriously & in all honesty, why do you think a character that has refused to yield to enormous trolling & abuse (none of it making much sense or based in fact), against continued reasonable, informed & valid arguments has been banned?

Looks pretty obvious to me.
for, as he himself has said in this very thread, posting links to a particularly off-colour adult website (which was very informative, don't get me wrong, but THAT'S what he got himself banned for).

Yup, that's your folk-hero, right there.

You certainly don't come off like a bitter, paranoid, delusional, stalker fan-boy.


Did you miss the part where he said "seriously and in all honesty"?

Posting a link to the top google hit of a word that isn't even blocked by the profanity filter here is hardly posting a link to an 'off-colour adult website'. Stop lying FFS, is that all you people can do?

HeIIfire11
Posted - 2011.07.06 02:01:00 - [219]
 

Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 06/07/2011 02:01:57
Originally by: Jonathan Ferguson
I can't discuss blah blah blah.

But I can direct you to my (sort of) new Twitter page!


Wow..what a little ***** lol. That's who you guys voted for csm? Laughing

That little **** sucker is so full of himsealf it almost hurts.

How long do these "hours for plex" go anyway? It's been a lot longer than 4 hours. Make it stop so I'm not tempted to read anymoreugh

Pesky LaRue
Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2011.07.06 02:03:00 - [220]
 

Originally by: Jonathan Ferguson
Edited by: Jonathan Ferguson on 06/07/2011 01:56:45
Originally by: Pesky LaRue
Edited by: Pesky LaRue on 06/07/2011 01:49:34
Originally by: San Severina
Why do you think?

I mean seriously & in all honesty, why do you think a character that has refused to yield to enormous trolling & abuse (none of it making much sense or based in fact), against continued reasonable, informed & valid arguments has been banned?

Looks pretty obvious to me.
for, as he himself has said in this very thread, posting links to a particularly off-colour adult website (which was very informative, don't get me wrong, but THAT'S what he got himself banned for).

Yup, that's your folk-hero, right there.

You certainly don't come off like a bitter, paranoid, delusional, stalker fan-boy.


Did you miss the part where he said "seriously and in all honesty"?

Posting a link to the top google hit of a word that isn't even blocked by the profanity filter here is hardly posting a link to an 'off-colour adult website'. Stop lying FFS, is that all you people can do?
Not a lie in the least. The website you posted to (according to the twitter page you also linked here) took you to a page that was absolutely NOT safe for work, wasn't family friendly, and abo****ely didn't belong on a gaming website.

Again - I feel the need to point out as I did in my original post that it was very informative and I make no moral judgement on the content of the website, but it absolutely wasn't fit for a gaming website, even one with an M-rating.

And, I read the part you mentioned, but if you feel that was a disclaimer of some sorts, you're evidently too smitten with that particular troll and believe we can all see how wonderful he is and read meanings into his every word.

Anyway, enjoy your civil rights movement, it's awesome to see the groundswell of support you got.

Olvel
Posted - 2011.07.06 02:03:00 - [221]
 

Originally by: Jonathan Ferguson
Could you give me a rough example of how that discussion might have gone? Because if somebody with honest grievances was turned off by what the protesters did then certainly we can learn from that.

For the first day or two I was genuinely curious to see what people were saying. There was a lot of emotion, but I wasn't seeing anything all that broken.

I had a couple discussions with people about Aurum and CQ. I didn't think either of those was gamebreaking... But I could at least understand what people were complaining about. I could understand the concerns about not being able to run multiple clients, or any client at all on older hardware. I could understand the pay-to-win concerns.

But by the time Friday rolled around, I was just plain sick of hearing it. Folks acted like they were completely unable to access their cargohold, when it simply took a couple more clicks. Folks raged about their computers melting under the strain of Incarna. And then the idiots started spinning off all those wardec threads and crap like that.

I was trying to see if CCP had any kind of response to the complaints, and the forums were basically unusable. Whenever anyone at CCP did post a response it was quickly buried under pages of complaints. The same complaints and hyperbole that'd already been voiced dozens of times before.

It stopped being communication, and started being noise.
Originally by: Jonathan Ferguson
Would you have been willing to unsubscribe (which is the only thing that CCP pays attention to) if you had felt like the protesters had respected your point of view more?

I was not willing to unsubscribe, personally, as I didn't see any of the changes as dealbreakers.

I might have been convinced to unsubscribe in some kind of show of solidarity... But by Friday afternoon I was just sick of all the noise and wanted to go back to enjoying my game. Tonight is the first time I've been back to the forums since that weekend.

I think it would have been far more effective if, rather than rage on the forums, folks had actually just straight-up unsubscribed in protest. Logged out of the game and just not come back. That would have actually sent a message that players were not willing to accept these deal-breaking changes.

Instead, the message that was sent was "We'll whine and complain and bring your forums to their knees... And keep paying and playing." Which is exactly the wrong message to send if you ever want CCP to listen to what you have to say.

Mars Theran
Caldari
EVE Rogues
EVE Rogues Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.06 02:04:00 - [222]
 

Originally by: Jonathan Ferguson
Originally by: Mars Theran
I attempted to rationalize with them ...


I think we found your problem right there. If I want rationalization, I'll talk to CCP, they excel at that.

If I want reason, there's only my fellow protesters to talk to.




Originally by: Wikipedia
In epistemology and in its modern sense, rationalism is "any view appealing to reason as a source of knowledge or justification" (Lacey 286). In more technical terms, it is a method or a theory "in which the criterion of the truth is not sensory but intellectual and deductive"


That would be the other rationalism., applied to people like you, which apparently doesn't work. Just wiki-away there though.

Jonathan Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.06 02:07:00 - [223]
 

Originally by: Olvel
Originally by: Jonathan Ferguson
Could you give me a rough example of how that discussion might have gone? Because if somebody with honest grievances was turned off by what the protesters did then certainly we can learn from that.

For the first day or two I was genuinely curious to see what people were saying. There was a lot of emotion, but I wasn't seeing anything all that broken.

I had a couple discussions with people about Aurum and CQ. I didn't think either of those was gamebreaking... But I could at least understand what people were complaining about. I could understand the concerns about not being able to run multiple clients, or any client at all on older hardware. I could understand the pay-to-win concerns.

But by the time Friday rolled around, I was just plain sick of hearing it. Folks acted like they were completely unable to access their cargohold, when it simply took a couple more clicks. Folks raged about their computers melting under the strain of Incarna. And then the idiots started spinning off all those wardec threads and crap like that.

I was trying to see if CCP had any kind of response to the complaints, and the forums were basically unusable. Whenever anyone at CCP did post a response it was quickly buried under pages of complaints. The same complaints and hyperbole that'd already been voiced dozens of times before.

It stopped being communication, and started being noise.
Originally by: Jonathan Ferguson
Would you have been willing to unsubscribe (which is the only thing that CCP pays attention to) if you had felt like the protesters had respected your point of view more?

I was not willing to unsubscribe, personally, as I didn't see any of the changes as dealbreakers.

I might have been convinced to unsubscribe in some kind of show of solidarity... But by Friday afternoon I was just sick of all the noise and wanted to go back to enjoying my game. Tonight is the first time I've been back to the forums since that weekend.

I think it would have been far more effective if, rather than rage on the forums, folks had actually just straight-up unsubscribed in protest. Logged out of the game and just not come back. That would have actually sent a message that players were not willing to accept these deal-breaking changes.

Instead, the message that was sent was "We'll whine and complain and bring your forums to their knees... And keep paying and playing." Which is exactly the wrong message to send if you ever want CCP to listen to what you have to say.


I hear what you're saying and I can understand why you were turned off. I don't think it's easy to just walk away from something after 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 years without saying SOMETHING on your way out the door, though. Not everyone has Teadaze's style.

Anyway, I'm glad you can relate to some of the complaints and I hope you recognize that sometimes you have to be willing to stand up for someone whose complaints are valid even though they don't affect you personally, in the hopes that when you have valid complaints that don't affect somebody else, that they'll stand up for you.

Khamelean
Posted - 2011.07.06 02:19:00 - [224]
 

Originally by: Jonathan Ferguson
Originally by: Tanya Fox
You really are wasting your time now. Why? Because you're not listening to the other side of the argument and they're not listening to you.


There's no question that they're not listening to me. Hilmar said as much (words vs actions, I'm sure you've read it, holler if you haven't and I'll try to find the link for you.)

I'd be happy to listen to anyone who posts anything constructive from the other side. All I'm hearing are ad hominems and half-truths (at best).

Tanya, which opposing claim do you think I've ignored that you think is valid? I will address it in my next post.


I'll take you at your word that your interested in constructive points from the other side, here is one.

You expectation that CCP would ever make the claim that they will "never" implement non-vaity items is unreasonable. No company (or person for that matter) could ever honestly make such a statement. Even if every single member of staff at CCP is 100% against against non-vanity items for MT, there is no way t guarantee what future management might choose to do.

The other problem is that of liabilty. The culture around micro-transactions could very well change, it's not beyond imagination that there would come a point in the future where 99% of the player base WANTS non-vanity items for MT. Not saying it's likely, but its not beyond imagining. Making the concrete statement of "never" would then prevent them from listening to ther customers.

The best any company can do is tell you it's intentions. It is true that intentions can change, as we saw with the "we have no plans for micro transactions" statement. But they weren't brought in out of nowhere. Disuccsions started months ago and the community was well informed of CCP's plans as they changed.

Picking apart thier statements in an effort to look for loopholes that might allow them to do something you dislike in the future is simply futile. When CCP does starting talking about plans you don't like, that's the time to protest.

The "we must protest now before it's too late" mentality is also futile. This is a video game, everything is mutable. There is no change put in that cannot be taken out. Especially the change incites a community response like the one last week. Solid plans would cause much more of an uproar than lasts week due the to the fact that there were a lot of people who took CCP at there word and ignored the newsletter.

Jonathan Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.06 02:31:00 - [225]
 

Originally by: Khamelean
I'll take you at your word that your interested in constructive points from the other side, here is one.

You expectation that CCP would ever make the claim that they will "never" implement non-vanity items is unreasonable. No company (or person for that matter) could ever honestly make such a statement. Even if every single member of staff at CCP is 100% against against non-vanity items for MT, there is no way to guarantee what future management might choose to do.

The other problem is that of liabilty. The culture around micro-transactions could very well change, it's not beyond imagination that there would come a point in the future where 99% of the player base WANTS non-vanity items for MT. Not saying it's likely, but its not beyond imagining. Making the concrete statement of "never" would then prevent them from listening to their customers.

The best any company can do is tell you it's intentions. It is true that intentions can change, as we saw with the "we have no plans for micro transactions" statement. But they weren't brought in out of nowhere. Discussions started months ago and the community was well informed of CCP's plans as they changed.

Picking apart their statements in an effort to look for loopholes that might allow them to do something you dislike in the future is simply futile. When CCP does starting talking about plans you don't like, that's the time to protest.

The "we must protest now before it's too late" mentality is also futile. This is a video game, everything is mutable. There is no change put in that cannot be taken out. Especially the change incites a community response like the one last week. Solid plans would cause much more of an uproar than lasts week due the to the fact that there were a lot of people who took CCP at there word and ignored the newsletter.


I don't agree that a company can't make a permanent commitment to its customers. If a company makes a calculation that the NPV of goodwill generated by making a permanent commitment exceeds the EV of leaving the option open to do what is forbidden by that commitment, then it should make that commitment. I think your argument would have a LOT more weight if CCP had said 'We are not planning and have no plans for any MT for anything other than PLEX and vanity items in the foreseeable future.' If they had said that, then I could see the 'you guys are paranoid argument' carrying a little weight. But their actual statement was (legally) meaningless. And soundwave won't even disavow what he wrote in Fearless. He's working on stuff NOW that is non-vanity MT. Take that to the bank.

As for waiting until 'CCP starts talking about plans' I don't like. Do you really expect CCP to openly talk about anything that might be remotely controversial now? Did you not read Fearless? Did they talk about any of that with us? C'mon now, please be reasonable.

Anyway, thx for the constructive post.

Important Person
Posted - 2011.07.06 02:45:00 - [226]
 

Edited by: Important Person on 06/07/2011 02:48:19
http://eve-search.com/thread/1546038/page/1

Classy guy oozing style.

http://teadaze.net/GalNet/?p=349

Quote:
**** you, Laurentius. Don’t let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. Learn to spell. Get some class. Buy a clue (or maybe your Good Lord will give you one for free.)


Quote:
If you were drunk, fine, have you sobered up yet? If not, then gtfo, you’re an arrogant little ***** who thinks (“knows”) that CCP can (“will”) master calculus when they’ve just managed (after 8 years) to figure out addition and are now struggling miserably with long division.



Jonathan Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.06 02:56:00 - [227]
 

Originally by: Important Person
Edited by: Important Person on 06/07/2011 02:48:19
http://eve-search.com/thread/1546038/page/1

Classy guy oozing style.

http://teadaze.net/GalNet/?p=349

Quote:
**** you, Laurentius. Don’t let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. Learn to spell. Get some class. Buy a clue (or maybe your Good Lord will give you one for free.)


Quote:
If you were drunk, fine, have you sobered up yet? If not, then gtfo, you’re an arrogant little ***** who thinks (“knows”) that CCP can (“will”) master calculus when they’ve just managed (after 8 years) to figure out addition and are now struggling miserably with long division.





Thanks for the free link. I welcome anybody (particularly folks on the fence) to visit the teadaze link and read the comments. If you have any questions about them, I'd be glad to address them.

As for linking a post to a political website that is the #1 hit on google (even with moderate safesearch on) for a word that is not blocked by the profanity filter here, we've already covered that.

Mars Theran
Caldari
EVE Rogues
EVE Rogues Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.06 03:06:00 - [228]
 

Laurentius articulates so well, don't you think? Smile

Kogh Ayon
Posted - 2011.07.06 03:57:00 - [229]
 

The protest failed because even through CCP promised that vanity-items-only, lots people still left the game.

Jonathan Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.06 04:00:00 - [230]
 

While we're posting from the comments on Teadaze's GBCW thread from 4 months ago (and change,) here's one that made a strong impression on me at the time:

Feb 9, 2011
Mynxee:"Hey Tea, I understand and support your decision 100%. My interest in EVE is at an all time low too. I just find myself consistently disappointed. Even so, there are plenty of people who are happy with the status quo and whatever CCP decides to deliver.

Difference in perspectives, I guess. As a CSM member, it’s no fun when the peek behind the curtain that you get as a result reveals that “the great and powerful Oz” is a sham. It’s concerning to me that there is so little evidence–both in recent and planned expansions–that EVE designers/visionaries have any plans to grow the game in ways that give PLAYERS more opportunities to persistently impact their environment, to change the universe in ways that affect other players. Instead, the focus seems to be on force-feeding essentially canned experiences to players. The game grows more shallow by the day, I fear. I wonder how this will impact EVE’s culture over time. Probably not in a way that will re-motivate me to ever again play more than extremely casually."

Of course, Mynxee's position seems to have changed since then:

July 2

Mynxee: "Catching up...good jt. statements from CSM/CCP, presenting a reasonable way fwd. Thanks to both for coming to the table. ... csm6 has definitely risen to the occasion."

I liked old Mynxee better (somebody asked why Mynxee 'got dragged into this' and that's why, fwiw.) YMMV.

Mystical Might
Amarr
The Imperial Fedaykin
Posted - 2011.07.06 04:16:00 - [231]
 


T'amber Anomandari Demaleon
Posted - 2011.07.06 05:09:00 - [232]
 

Originally by: baltec1
It stopped because the bulk of us didnt want none vanity items. CCP has now said the will not go down that road so we are happy again.

Its as simple as that.


They already said this last year too.


Bad Messenger
draketrain
Posted - 2011.07.06 06:12:00 - [233]
 

Only reason why it failed, is the fact that there was no reason to protest at all.

You were protesting against something that never existed, it was all imagination what could exists on future.

San Severina
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.06 06:36:00 - [234]
 

Edited by: San Severina on 06/07/2011 09:40:12
Originally by: Important Person
Edited by: Important Person on 06/07/2011 02:48:19
http://eve-search.com/thread/1546038/page/1

Classy guy oozing style.

http://teadaze.net/GalNet/?p=349

Quote:
**** you, Laurentius. Don’t let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. Learn to spell. Get some class. Buy a clue (or maybe your Good Lord will give you one for free.)


Quote:
If you were drunk, fine, have you sobered up yet? If not, then gtfo, you’re an arrogant little ***** who thinks (“knows”) that CCP can (“will”) master calculus when they’ve just managed (after 8 years) to figure out addition and are now struggling miserably with long division.





way to crosspost out of context like a true douche & then cast aspersions about class & style.

Those comments were perfectly valid & classy enough considering the obvious lack of class of the person they were directed at, I'd wager that if you could articulate yourself 5% as well you'd say alot worse under the circumstances & you probably wouldn't hide behind your pathetic ALT for the first time in your douche life.

edit; heya mystical might :D


Important Person
Posted - 2011.07.06 06:39:00 - [235]
 

Originally by: San Severina


way to crosspost out of context like a true douche




Why you call me douche? That's not nice. I am person of great import. I expected more from you.

San Severina
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.06 06:50:00 - [236]
 

Originally by: Important Person
Originally by: San Severina


way to crosspost out of context like a true douche




Why you call me douche? That's not nice. I am person of great import. I expected more from you.


a spade is a spadeWink

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.07.06 06:51:00 - [237]
 

Originally by: AkJon Ferguson
Here are 10 reasons (in no particular order) I think we lost:


What outcome were you attempting to achieve? What would "winning" have looked like?

Jonathan Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.06 06:53:00 - [238]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn
Originally by: AkJon Ferguson
Here are 10 reasons (in no particular order) I think we lost:


What outcome were you attempting to achieve? What would "winning" have looked like?


Top of page 2

Important Person
Posted - 2011.07.06 06:57:00 - [239]
 

Originally by: San Severina
Originally by: Important Person
Originally by: San Severina


way to crosspost out of context like a true douche




Why you call me douche? That's not nice. I am person of great import. I expected more from you.


a spade is a spadeWink


a shovel is a shovel ugh

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.07.06 07:33:00 - [240]
 

Originally by: AkJon Ferguson
Hopefully we can agree on those facts. Now here's what winning looks like (from my perspective:)


  • CCP commits permanently to making Incarna optional.

  • CCP commits permanently to keeping $ for GTC for PLEX the only MT in the game.

  • CCP removes Aurum from the game.

  • CCP agrees that since we have paid for 2 expansions per year with our inflated monthly subscription, and since this expansion is all about Spaceship Barbies, that they will allow us to play dressup with our Spaceship Barbies for 'free' (since we've already paid for it with our inflated monthly subscription.)

  • CCP acknowledges that Hilmar's idea to gouge players because he saw a slideshow on the Internets about gouging players in a F2P game doesn't work in the industry's most expensive subscription-based MMO.

  • CCP restores adequate funding to EVE development (Internet Spaceships.)

  • CCP regains the respect and trust of its playerbase, and goes on to great financial success from its 2 new games, which can operate on whatever financial model Hilmar dreams up because they are new games with no established precedents/understandings.





See, that list wasn't around before the riots.

I'd agree with you on some of those except your comment about "inflated monthly subscription" in points 4 and 5, your assertion that there is inadequate funding for EVE development, the requirement to scrap Aurum, and your demand that CCP become successful in its two new ventures.

Aurum provides a means to ensure that PLEX are destroyed. As such it means that people buying vanity items are directly contributing to CCP's bottom line, and thus providing more funds for "adequate" funding of EVE development.

I'm not sure how you could demand that CCP go onto great financial success with its two new games in order for EVE players to "win" this argument about the problems with Incarna.

So boiling it down to basics, the points I agree with you on are:


  • CCP commits permanently to making Incarna optional (and I'd add: via docking into the hangar view, with the option to enter CQ from there)

  • CCP commits permanently to keeping $ for PLEX the only MT in the game

  • CCP acknowledges that the business model of F2P instanced shooters doesn't translate to a subscription-based MMO where every action by a player has an impact on the persistent virtual world

  • CCP becomes more communicative about plans for the future of EVE in order to gain player respect and trust



The further outcome of regaining player respect and going on to financial success in their two new games is irrelevant to the "winning" outcomes of this spat.

It is a shame that there was no discussion about these points during the riots, and that player concerns have had to come to talking about these issues after the dust has settled.


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