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Khamelean
Posted - 2011.07.05 04:43:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: AkJon Ferguson
This thread was supposed to be about WHY we lost, but given the (surprisingly?) high degree of controversy over WHETHER we lost, I suppose I should explain what winning would have looked like. Let's see if we can agree on a few facts:

For the last 8 years, EVE has been a sandbox game about Internet Spaceships and a player-driven economy with a steep learning curve and requiring a long time investment from its players/customers.

EVE has always run on low-end computers. Even by players running multiple accounts, a practice which has been encouraged in both game development and marketing by its developer, CCP games.

It has an incredible community that pays a high monthly subscription, with the average long-term player paying $50 per month or so (to support the multiple accounts I mentioned earlier.) In exchange for that high monthly subscription, EVE has traditionally offered 2 'free' expansions per year.

EVE has been and continues to be immensely profitable for its developer, CCP Games, which refers internally to EVE as its 'Golden Goose.'

Recent patches and expansions have left countless bugs, exploits, imbalances and unfinished features. EVE (Internet Spaceships) is in a state of utter neglect.

The last patch fried/overheated the video cards of a significant percentage of its customers and makes the game unplayable in multibox mode for a significantly higher percentage of its customers.

CCP Games devotes grossly inadequate financial/development resources to EVE (Internet Spaceships,) focusing instead solely on its 2 new games in development. What few resources it does devote to EVE (Internet Spaceships) are being allocated by someone who has expressed enthusiasm about breaking in-game functionality and selling it back to the players through microtransactions.

Hopefully we can agree on those facts.


I think you need to go find a dictionary and look up the difference between "fact","opinion" and "delusion".

AnzacPaul
Perkone
Posted - 2011.07.05 04:47:00 - [62]
 

Edited by: AnzacPaul on 05/07/2011 04:46:53
Originally by: baltec1
It stopped because the bulk of us didnt want none vanity items. CCP has now said the will not go down that road so we are happy again.

Its as simple as that.

Please link the post that states what you said above in clear, concise terms.

Khamelean
Posted - 2011.07.05 04:52:00 - [63]
 

The protests were successful, as is evidenced by this post lasting on the front page of GD for longer than 30 seconds.

The only reason there are a few people still complaining is because they had unreasonable expectations.

Milken Gekko
Posted - 2011.07.05 04:56:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Khamelean
I think you need to go find a dictionary and look up the difference between "fanboy","black flag operations" and "oligarchy".



Fix'd that for you

Mister Smithington
Posted - 2011.07.05 04:57:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: AkJon Ferguson
Hopefully we can agree on those facts. Now here's what winning looks like (from my perspective:)

CCP commits permanently to making Incarna optional.

CCP commits permanently to keeping $ for GTC for PLEX the only MT in the game.

CCP removes Aurum from the game.

CCP agrees that since we have paid for 2 expansions per year with our inflated monthly subscription, and since this expansion is all about Spaceship Barbies, that they will allow us to play dressup with our Spaceship Barbies for 'free' (since we've already paid for it with our inflated monthly subscription.)

CCP acknowledges that Hilmar's idea to gouge players because he saw a slideshow on the Internets about gouging players in a F2P game doesn't work in the industry's most expensive subscription-based MMO.

CCP restores adequate funding to EVE development (Internet Spaceships.)

CCP regains the respect and trust of its playerbase, and goes on to great financial success from its 2 new games, which can operate on whatever financial model Hilmar dreams up because they are new games with no established precedents/understandings.

That's what winning would look like (more or less). It's a little rough, but give me a week to fly to Iceland and I'd polish it up a bit.

Or just get me drunk and tell me you have no plans to sell non-vanity items in your vanity items store. I'm good with that.
You're projecting your particular desires onto the community. Guess what? Not everyone shares your priorities. The fact that you made this post assuming that everyone would agree the protest failed demonstrates that quite clearly.

Let me ask you this? If the wishes of the majority of the community had not been achieved, do you really think the rage would have died down? We were ****ed about the prospect of game effecting MTs in our sandbox. CCP backed down from those, and so we let off the rage.

AkJon, I'm sorry you jumped on the populist rage-train waving the flag for the most hardcore position of secondary and tertiary issues. I'm sorry you didn't understand the revolt was about MTs, and not reshaping Eve into your personal ideal.

You're right, no one should be forced into incarna, the way that no one should be forced into wormholes or forced into mining. But what you fail to understand is that some people are very much looking forward to the full version of Incarna. Some of them would love to take all the devs off Flying in Space to churn out Incarna content as quickly as possible. The summit was still a victory for them, because it achieved its primary goal: getting CCP to back away from MT for game effecting items.

TL;DR, you're delusional, stop talking.

ALLYOURMONEY BELONGTOUS
Posted - 2011.07.05 04:58:00 - [66]
 

The post from CCP was nicely done. Well played but I think CCP will still lose customers. People will watch what CCP does and not what they say. I will miss this game. When my sub runs out I will not continue until CQ is optional. Lots of people feel this way and CCP is going to put it on the back burner like everything else. Going to be a pity to lose so many people for something they could have avoided easily.

Maman Brigitte
Licentia Ex Vereor
Intergalactic Exports Group
Posted - 2011.07.05 04:58:00 - [67]
 

Ship spinning means return of optional CQ.

Promise of no non-vanity items in NeX has been secured.

...

Yeah, Incarna could be better, and some day it will be better, but I'm failing to see how the protesters, including myself, didn't get what we were after?

Conflicts are resolved through compromise. The most important issues have been addressed, by far in our favor.

Now is the time for all good men to stop whining and go back to playing in the sandbox.

gargars
Posted - 2011.07.05 05:00:00 - [68]
 

And who ever said it failed? Quite the opposite. The protests caught media attention and it's the only thing CCP seems to care about.

Due to the protests the CSM was flown in for the emergency meetings last week, the promises from CCP and the press conferences tomorrow.

Calling that nothing is pretty petty and sad of you despite your agenda.

Maman Brigitte
Licentia Ex Vereor
Intergalactic Exports Group
Posted - 2011.07.05 05:00:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: ALLYOURMONEY BELONGTOUS
The post from CCP was nicely done. Well played but I think CCP will still lose customers. People will watch what CCP does and not what they say. I will miss this game. When my sub runs out I will not continue until CQ is optional. Lots of people feel this way and CCP is going to put it on the back burner like everything else. Going to be a pity to lose so many people for something they could have avoided easily.


The option to turn it off exists, and will remain until they have returned ship-spinning to the game.

There's no way they can do that without making CQ optional, I'm guessing you'll dock up normally with a "disembark" button somewhere you can push to enter Incarna.

So, CQ is optional. You back yet?

Milken Gekko
Posted - 2011.07.05 05:03:00 - [70]
 

LOADING

Kumq uat
Posted - 2011.07.05 05:12:00 - [71]
 

I am putting a 100 million bounty on the corpse of the op. I must be provided with a corpse and an API verified kill mail.

Also first person to buy me a monocle gets my eternal love.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.07.05 05:14:00 - [72]
 

Edited by: Adunh Slavy on 05/07/2011 05:14:48
For my part, we won. My concern, and that of the majority of the protestors by all accounts, was non-vanity advantages gained by micro-transactions. CCP gave us a statement that for me, and many others, was reassuring. The CSM, who took time out of their personal lives and deserves our thanks, confirmed the statement by CCP.

We were psised, we stopped the engine and got a more firm commitment as to the direction of the Nex and non-vanity. Win.

Sure there are some things about Incarna that people do not like. Even if the Nex was not included, those other things would still not be liked.

1 - You must have been asleep
2 - The protestors had no leader, nor did they require one. Besides, not everyone posts with their main.
3 - All leaves in Fall do not land upon the ground at the same time.
4 - Eh?
5 - Eve players are some how immune to being human?
6 - We made progress in spite of them.
7 - Not relevant
8 - White Tree has good reason to be upset with comments like that.
9 - You saw how big the protests were, and that was from even fewer words about the future of MT. CCP will have a tough time going against this statement.
10 - Dev alts thing was conspiratorial, still is. The conspiracy lived and thrived in the environment as predicted. Mobs are unkind, unruly and treat dissenters harshly for a reason, right or wrong.

Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.05 05:17:00 - [73]
 

Protests did not fail -- OP, however, did.

People soon gave up when they saw 'the big yellow question' had been answered to their satisfaction: no non-vanity game-breaking items for AUR.

I know it's often hard to stand down when you're so riled and completely pumped up, ready for yet another week of fierce protesting. And then word comes down: 'War is over; we won.' And it comes quicker than you expected. And then, still in denial, you start looking for excuses to keep going: "But, but, they didn't say 'NEVER!'; they only said 'No plans' to us." And more of such lame nitpickings -- you've seen 'em all.

Truth is, the war really IS over. This time CCP gave their word, not only to this community, but to the watching game world at large. There's no way they're gonna get out of this one without a lot more damage than the poor Memorial suffered.

So, relax; go home, and go play EVE again.

Flag Bravo
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.05 05:18:00 - [74]
 

As long as CCP has not lied to us again, then everything turned out quite nice and the protests worked a treat.

AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.05 05:45:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Mister Smithington
You're projecting your particular desires onto the community. Guess what? Not everyone shares your priorities. The fact that you made this post assuming that everyone would agree the protest failed demonstrates that quite clearly.

Let me ask you this? If the wishes of the majority of the community had not been achieved, do you really think the rage would have died down? We were ****ed about the prospect of game effecting MTs in our sandbox. CCP backed down from those, and so we let off the rage.

AkJon, I'm sorry you jumped on the populist rage-train waving the flag for the most hardcore position of secondary and tertiary issues. I'm sorry you didn't understand the revolt was about MTs, and not reshaping Eve into your personal ideal.

You're right, no one should be forced into incarna, the way that no one should be forced into wormholes or forced into mining. But what you fail to understand is that some people are very much looking forward to the full version of Incarna. Some of them would love to take all the devs off Flying in Space to churn out Incarna content as quickly as possible. The summit was still a victory for them, because it achieved its primary goal: getting CCP to back away from MT for game effecting items.

TL;DR, you're delusional, stop talking.


Which of my particular desires do you think I'm projecting?

That Incarna be optional?

That CCP ought to allocate sufficient resources to Internet Spaceships?

That MT be restricted to PLEX (or to vanity only as a final compromise)?

That in-game functionality ought not to be broken by CCP and sold back to its customers via microtransactions?

That CCP ought to be satisfied with its 'highest cost per player in the industry' subscription model and not treat its customers like the 'golden goose' it thinks of us as?

I am confident that all of my 'desires' would meet with majority (if not vast majority) approval from the rest of CCP's customers. I don't consider any of them to be 'hardcore'. I think you are (to put it kindly) misinformed. But please illuminate me if you disagree and please provide specifics and not ad hominems. Thanks.

Mister Smithington
Posted - 2011.07.05 05:51:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: AkJon Ferguson

Which of my particular desires do you think I'm projecting?

That Incarna be optional?

That CCP ought to allocate sufficient resources to Internet Spaceships?

That MT be restricted to PLEX (or to vanity only as a final compromise)?

That in-game functionality ought not to be broken by CCP and sold back to its customers via microtransactions?

That CCP ought to be satisfied with its 'highest cost per player in the industry' subscription model and not treat its customers like the 'golden goose' it thinks of us as?

I am confident that all of my 'desires' would meet with majority (if not vast majority) approval from the rest of CCP's customers. I don't consider any of them to be 'hardcore'. I think you are (to put it kindly) misinformed. But please illuminate me if you disagree and please provide specifics and not ad hominems. Thanks.

Thank you for proving my point.

Originally by: Mister Smithington
We were ****ed about the prospect of game effecting MTs in our sandbox. CCP backed down from those, and so we let off the rage. . . I'm sorry you didn't understand the revolt was about MTs, and not reshaping Eve into your personal ideal.


Here's another way to look at it. We were protesting MTs for game effecting items. Our protests were successful. I'm sorry if yours weren't. Maybe you should be better at protesting.

AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.05 05:58:00 - [77]
 

Teadaze said it well when he left:

"Firstly I would like to point out that just because Iíve decided Eve is no longer the game for me it doesnít automatically mean your choice to continue to play it is wrong. Nor am I going to try to make a case why you should quit, I believe in the ďplay what you enjoyĒ mantra and it would be a very dull world if everyone had the same opinion about everything.


So, why did I cancel two of my six accounts last year and the final four yesterday?


Simply put, CCP promised that Incarna would be optional and it is now clear that it is not going to be. The Captainís Quarters (CQ) being the first part and having seen the plans for the other bits due this year the rest wonít be optional in any real sense (I hope they change their mind but in any case the discussion was buried under the NDA banner so I canít go into detail). For me this is a deal breaker.


I can handle the existence of Incarna to cater for the people who are looking forward to it. I can even handle the reduced development of the flying in space part of the game (after all, due to CSM pressure we have a team working on quick fixes). But forcing me to use the avatar environment Ė sorry no, this is not the game I enjoyed. To some people this isnít enough of a reason and they claim Iím being an idiot Ė well I point you to the first paragraph.


It would have been an easy thing and a big win for CCP to retain the docking into hanger as an option for those of us who have zero interest in the avatar engine stuff, but CCP have decided not to. I can only assume they donít want metrics showing any significant number of people not using the avatar stuff and also I sense the hand of marketing. It should not be the job of the CSM or the players to make a case for why a disruptive change shouldnít be put in game, it is the job of CCP to make a case for why they want to put it in!
In this case the best answer I got was ďBecause it will be awesomeĒ which I donít find an acceptable reason (Awesome has lost its meaning now, it is no better than using nice ;) )


Am I bitter? Not especially. Iím more disappointed with the current trend at CCP for enforced participation in new features. The loss of the existing character portraits broke any significant investment in my eve chars and the broken promise of Incarna being optional made the decision to leave fairly simple.


Some will claim that I should wait and see, but the CQ blog confirmed what I already knew from the summit. Iíve already waited to find out if they would take the optional comments on board. For the Incarna fans there is more to come but unless CCP pull a 180 on some plans I will like it even less than the enforced docking into CQ. Rather than continue to raise red flags and call bull**** on various things (as CCPís CEO wanted us to) I will focus my energy into other projects.


The thing Iíve found the most amusing is the amount of vitriol directed towards me by players (some with known CCP connections) for daring to suggest the CQ be optional. I didnít want to take the shinies away from you, so what difference does it make to your gameplay if I would rather see only my ship in the hanger than a room? Again, justify a disruptive change instead of asking me to make the case for retaining existing systems. It could have been an optional change and everybody would have been happy.


Then come the comparisons between opting out of an interface and opting out of PvP. No that analogy is flawed because there is a simple difference between player driven behaviour and a chat UI.


As I said at the top, if you still enjoy Eve then I donít think you foolish for playing it. This is not an either or, them and us, for or against type of situation. I respect your choice, why is it so hard for people to respect mine?

No you canít have my stuff and Iím not going to biomass my character. Never say never. Maybe in a couple of years Iíll come back."

John Caesse
Caldari
Navy of Xoc
The Remnant Legion
Posted - 2011.07.05 06:06:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: AkJon Ferguson

10. CCP stall tactics and counterintelligence/war propaganda (via dev alts)



Don't remove your tinfoil hat or the CCP devs will come to your neighborhood and transmit signals into your head to make you buy quafe t-shirts.

Seriously, they do this. CCP Shadow is a ninja.

K'iran
Spirit of EVE
Posted - 2011.07.05 06:11:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: AkJon Ferguson
Teadaze said it well when he left:


Always liked the guy, no nonsense just facts, hard work and devotion. Voted for him as well.

Mister Smithington
Posted - 2011.07.05 06:11:00 - [80]
 

Wow, you've convinced me. In fact the rage was NOT about MT for game effecting items. In fact we took the opportunity of the release of Fearless and Hilmar's Killmail to rage about vanity MTs, which we had known about for some time, and docking straight to CQ, which we had also known about for some time.

Originally by: Mister Smithington
TL;DR You're delusional

AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.05 06:13:00 - [81]
 

I also find Goon opinions from something awful rather interesting:

Evil Weasel: "Mittani got snookered at the CSM meeting, guess he can't handle his liquor that well."

Evil Weasel: "Vile rat is correct. Mittani got the same carefully worded statement allowing future non-vanity transactions they offered before he left. He also doesn't seem to have spoken to the people who rammed through the microtransactions stuff (not the devs) so he's feeling all warm and fuzzy because he spoke to people who aren't important."

Mittens' Reply: "You know none of the poo poo I know. Vile Rat didn't even attend the summit. He's as informed as you are.

And you have no clue who I spoke to about what.

Edit: Suppose I shouldn't be ~allmad~ but it's pretty gay when you don't even talk to me before going around trying to undermine things while completely, utterly ignorant. "

So apparently the part of the CCP statement about MT had already been written before CSM even left for Reyk. All CCP had to do was to get CSM to sign off. How many drinks did that take?

Mister Smithington
Posted - 2011.07.05 06:19:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: AkJon Ferguson

So apparently the part of the CCP statement about MT had already been written before CSM even left for Reyk. All CCP had to do was to get CSM to sign off. How many drinks did that take?

Well, considering Zulu said the same thing that appeared in the summit statement in his "100% more love" blog, and their COO said it in an interview with an Icelandic newspaper, it really isn't surprising that CCP was ready to concede that point before the CSM arrived.

However, Fearless suggests that in May, before the riots, CCP had other plans, or at least were exploring other options. The rage put a stop to that. Therefore the protests were successful.

AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.05 06:25:00 - [83]
 

Unfortunately, however, it seems the only CSM delegate with any sense didn't go.

Vile Rat:"Vile rat posted:

Wish I could be happy with this result but I cannot.

quote: [from the CSM part of the joint statement - AkJon]

"Game-affecting Virtual Goods: We are convinced that CCP has no plans to introduce any game-affecting virtual goods, only pure vanity items such as clothing and ship skins. We have been repeatedly assured that there are no plans for Ďgold ammo', ships which have different statistics from existing common hulls, or any other feared Ďgame destroying' virtual goods or services. We have expressed our deep concern about potential grey areas that the introduction of virtual goods permits, and CCP has made a commitment to discuss any proposals that might fall into these grey areas in detail with CSM at the earliest possible stage."


While this statement is true I fear I must disagree with the overall sense of comfort in the message because I very strongly do NOT agree.

The lack of a clear concise statement declaring that they will never go in this direction is alarming, let me explain why.

Right now there is a roll out of cosmetic microtransactions which by and large the CSM, myself included, had no real issues with. I personally had no issues with it because there was an understanding that this was the far extent of what would be done. Nowhere in these statements is a determination to never cross this line into pay for non cosmetic, just an immediate desire to not pursue this goal. I can not support any MT scheme that would pave the way for even the possibility of going beyond this. I would have been satisfied if they said "we will never do this", you will notice that this statement did not occur.


I respect the fact that CCP has no plans to go beyond cosmetic and I truly feel this sentiment is sincere, but without committing to it my confidence in the future of this MT scheme is in doubt and as such I cannot support it."

Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
Butterfly Effect Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.05 06:29:00 - [84]
 

Well the Gold Ammo was never going to come anyway, it was just the opinion of an employee. Pay2win already exist, PLEX is nothing else, but the whiners here are in active denial of the fact.

Also some people repeat the most stupid of assumptions over and over until others started to believe them (religions work the same way. you can get away with most ridiculous stuff if repeat it in front of a crowd long enough).

Some of the most bitter vets will also take the existance of Incarna as a reason to leave, but as this feature does influence the gameplay part of EVE in any shape or form, we are probably better of without these attention *****s.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2011.07.05 06:30:00 - [85]
 

Edited by: Ranger 1 on 05/07/2011 06:31:20
There has never been a statement made that some self entitled idiot couldn't rip imaginary holes in.

People like you are EXACTLY why these people ended up having to protest in the first place. The flow of pure crap that flows from these forums, from people like you, has changed these forums from a useful feedback system into a complete farce. Small wonder CCP doesn't pay as much attention to it as they used to.

Get lost.

AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.05 06:32:00 - [86]
 

Edited by: AkJon Ferguson on 05/07/2011 06:34:37
While we're visiting other forums, Hratli Smirks said it very well:

"I'm still not resubbing hth.

The ultimate problem here is no matter what CCP does or says I don't trust them to communicate their intentions and I don't trust them to fix their game. I came to this conclusion when people were wondering if Mittens was going to tell us to pull up stakes and move to WoT or something when he came back from Iceland and I realized that what was going to happen was the CSM was going to come back and say "its all cool guys its just CCP is bad at talking to human beings they don't intend to add game-affecting MT and they are serious not like when they said they weren't going to add MT last year. CCP has a lot of very smart people running it now despite years of evidence to the contrary don't worry they understand."

This game has been ****ed up to various degrees since Dominion, which was roughly 18 months ago. If they haven't been able to solve the problems that players pointed out before they even introduced them into the live game in 18 months, or even look like they understand the problems, then I'm not sure why I should continue to pay them (or rather facilitate someone else paying them on my behalf) on good faith that Some Day they will bring it all together in the fabled fix expansion.

I mean these are the guys who watched a video of 25 titans DDing a carrier and said 'well that is just obviously unacceptably hilariously broken guys dont worry we see it' and their response was to make it so every titan could DD a carrier.

Ultimately me staying in this game just encourages them to keep being useless."

Actually, #11 (on the list this thread was supposed to be about) just occurred to me. A big part of the problem is that protesters weren't all posting in the same place. If there's a next time, hopefully we can decide on a common communication channel.

Edit: Apparently CCP doesn't allow links to that forum from here, you'll have to quote me to get the link.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2011.07.05 06:35:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: AkJon Ferguson
While we're visiting other forums, Hratli Smirks said it very well:

"I'm still not resubbing hth.

The ultimate problem here is no matter what CCP does or says I don't trust them to communicate their intentions and I don't trust them to fix their game. I came to this conclusion when people were wondering if Mittens was going to tell us to pull up stakes and move to WoT or something when he came back from Iceland and I realized that what was going to happen was the CSM was going to come back and say "its all cool guys its just CCP is bad at talking to human beings they don't intend to add game-affecting MT and they are serious not like when they said they weren't going to add MT last year. CCP has a lot of very smart people running it now despite years of evidence to the contrary don't worry they understand."

This game has been ****ed up to various degrees since Dominion, which was roughly 18 months ago. If they haven't been able to solve the problems that players pointed out before they even introduced them into the live game in 18 months, or even look like they understand the problems, then I'm not sure why I should continue to pay them (or rather facilitate someone else paying them on my behalf) on good faith that Some Day they will bring it all together in the fabled fix expansion.

I mean these are the guys who watched a video of 25 titans DDing a carrier and said 'well that is just obviously unacceptably hilariously broken guys dont worry we see it' and their response was to make it so every titan could DD a carrier.

Ultimately me staying in this game just encourages them to keep being useless."

Actually, #11 (on the list this thread was supposed to be about) just occurred to me. A big part of the problem is that protesters weren't all posting in the same place. If there's a next time, hopefully we can decide on a common communication channel.




Yes, and hopefully it's somewhere else.

Mister Smithington
Posted - 2011.07.05 06:46:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1

Yes, and hopefully it's somewhere else.


God damn dude, can you still not see that the riots that you hate so much made Eve a better place for you along with the rest of us? Can you not see that Eve dodged a potential NGE moment?

I sincerely hope CCP never screws up so bad that we need to do this again. But if they do, I sincerely hope the community can rally together again like we did last week. If it blows up your forums and crashes your market hubs for a few days, it's a worthwhile price to pay.

Reloadin
Posted - 2011.07.05 07:18:00 - [89]
 

ITT : Exactly the kind of stupidity and stubbornness that Hilmar predicted.

Bo Tosh
Posted - 2011.07.05 07:28:00 - [90]
 

1. MT for vanity items only.

Works for me.

2. CQ optional until some form of the hanger returns.

I can live with that.

3. A promise of better communication from CCP.

Nice just hope it lasts.

4. Proof that even among the HiSec community the EvE playerbase aren't all sheep to be lead to the slaughter and that the CSM is worth a damn.

A victory in and of itself.


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