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AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.05 00:54:00 - [1]
 

Kudos to CCP for defeating the uprising and retaining the right to break your game and wreck your company's financial future. Well played, CCP.

Here are 10 reasons (in no particular order) I think we lost:

1. Lack of a coherent message by the protesters.

2. Lack of buy-in from the leadership of any large alliance or any truly charismatic/well-spoken individual capable of getting GDI buy-in (to consolidate messaging/actions.)

3. Staggered subscription expiry.

4. Skill queues and POS fuel.

5. Prisoner's dilemma. (free riders)

6. EVE's ingrained culture of trolls and fanbois (plus the ability to post anonymously.)

7. The lack of alternative engaging sandbox games.

8. CSM willing to be bought off for a few drinks.

9. Large portion of the playerbase (including Mynxee! ugh) willing to be bought off with a few almost-meaningless words.

10. CCP stall tactics and counterintelligence/war propaganda (via dev alts)

Did I miss any?

baltec1
Posted - 2011.07.05 00:56:00 - [2]
 

It stopped because the bulk of us didnt want none vanity items. CCP has now said the will not go down that road so we are happy again.

Its as simple as that.

Mars Theran
Caldari
EVE Rogues
EVE Rogues Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.05 01:06:00 - [3]
 

I think you missed the part where other players, (not Dev alts), like myself worked for and against you in an attempt to balance things out and put out the fires, while still allowing you to get the point across. While some of us were wholly on the other side, others of us agreed in part with many of the opinions presented, but neither liked or saw any need for the flames and trolling that were happening.

Oh.. and yeah, you might also have missed the part where you won, you daft punk. Smile

Maybe not to your liking, or in accordance with your extremist principles, but both protest and community uprising had the intended affect, and galvanized both the Dev's and CSM to work things out on your behalf. Maybe you missed it. SurprisedRolling Eyes

Else, end if, quit trolling.

San Severina
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.05 01:07:00 - [4]
 

AkJon, you speak 100% for me, only you say it better.

i agree 100% with this thread, time will tell how this ends up, but it was disappointing to see the community so easily pacified, admittedly a lot of the more vocal & articulate critics have been silenced by bans, subs running out or just sheer loss of interest.

I too will be gone soon, I almost hope you keep paying & playing to represent me and many more like me within the game & here on these boards.

Players deserve to hear the full story, and the opposing voices, sadly, are disappearing, leaving Mono***s & fanbois/ALTS to run amok.

Never forget EvE Players, this patch cost the Community a lot of great players & in a game like EvE the community is everything, this is unacceptable IMO, especially when it all could have been avoided if CCP didn't have their heads buried so far up their -you know what!-

Cheers to you AkJon FergusonCool

Kuronaga
Black Snake Syndicate
Posted - 2011.07.05 01:08:00 - [5]
 

What do you believe the protest was attempting to do, Ferguson?

Because I believe it succeeded.

The purpose was to shine a negative light on CCP's actions and force them into a broad public action that the entire gaming world could see.

It did that spectacularly, and regardless of their true intentions if they back out of their promises now they have this ten minute long video showcasing their treachery for all time.

This would be far more damaging then any protest, so all in all... yea, the protest worked perfectly.

Mars Theran
Caldari
EVE Rogues
EVE Rogues Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.05 01:17:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: San Severina
AkJon, you speak 100% for me, only you say it better.

i agree 100% with this thread, time will tell how this ends up, but it was disappointing to see the community so easily pacified, admittedly a lot of the more vocal & articulate critics have been silenced by bans, subs running out or just sheer loss of interest.

I too will be gone soon, I almost hope you keep paying & playing to represent me and many more like me within the game & here on these boards.

Players deserve to hear the full story, and the opposing voices, sadly, are disappearing, leaving Mono***s & fanbois/ALTS to run amok.

Never forget EvE Players, this patch cost the Community a lot of great players & in a game like EvE the community is everything, this is unacceptable IMO, especially when it all could have been avoided if CCP didn't have their heads buried so far up their -you know what!-

Cheers to you AkJon FergusonCool


I think I missed the part where you were disappearing. Twisted Evil j/k Very Happy

Zero GodOfDestruction
Posted - 2011.07.05 01:17:00 - [7]
 

I disagree with #7

Perpetuum online- I've been playing it since last week, and to be perfectly honest, I like better than eve.

San Severina
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.05 01:19:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Kuronaga
What do you believe the protest was attempting to do, Ferguson?

Because I believe it succeeded.

The purpose was to shine a negative light on CCP's actions and force them into a broad public action that the entire gaming world could see.

It did that spectacularly, and regardless of their true intentions if they back out of their promises now they have this ten minute long video showcasing their treachery for all time.

This would be far more damaging then any protest, so all in all... yea, the protest worked perfectly.


We do still have the public statements & Dev Blogs from a year ago telling us EvE was never going down the MT road.

So, I put little weight in the message of the statement or the Vid. We all know what CCP are capable of & how they will justify whatever they decide to do regardless of past promises.

However, i do agree with you that the outcry was not a total failure, it just wasn't the success i would have liked to see.

IMO the statement should have caused further outcry & forced CCP into a much clearer & more specific statement regarding the future of EvE, as it stands a lot of issues weren't even addressed in the statement we have now & they have dropped off the radar except for a small number of players risking all kinds of insults to try to keep them alive here. And that number of players is ever decreasing as subs run out.

I believe CCP is treating this community with total contempt & Hilmar's email confirms this, ultimately it's up to every individual player to make that judgement for themselves, what I don't like to see though is players deliberately turning a blind eye to the issues because they fear having to quit the game, that is weak & it's CCP's edge & they are using it to it's full extent.

Confused

Raikov Vanskenski
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.05 01:22:00 - [9]
 

I don't often feel the need to call someone out for being an idiot, but given the nature of the OP's post, I feel the need to do so here.

Did you even bother to spend more than a few minutes reading the complaints posted on these forums? If you did, you would have realized that the majority of the rioting was in regards to the possibility of non-vanity items being introduced into the NeX store. Additionally, many players were unsatisfied with the absence of "ship spinning," as it cause a great deal of performance problems.

CCP addressed both of these issues, stating that non-vanity items would not make an appearance in the NeX store, and that they will eventually reintroduce a hanger view similar to that of the old version. Until this change happens, they promised to keep the "do not load captain's quarters" option in-game.

Seriously, you seem to be the type of person that complains just for the sake of complaining, rather than doing so for any legitimate reason.

Mynex
Posted - 2011.07.05 01:25:00 - [10]
 

The #1 concern was non-vanity micro transactions. We have been told they are not happening. We got what we(most people who were complaining) wanted. If CCP go back on this there will be mass cancellations and flaming again. But for now we got what we wanted so lets enjoy the game?

Raikov Vanskenski
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.05 01:26:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Mynex
The #1 concern was non-vanity micro transactions. We have been told they are not happening. We got what we(most people who were complaining) wanted. If CCP go back on this there will be mass cancellations and flaming again. But for now we got what we wanted so lets enjoy the game?


Exactly. It seems like everyone except the OP realizes this.

Kieron VonDeux
Posted - 2011.07.05 01:28:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Raikov Vanskenski
I don't often feel the need to call someone out for being an idiot, but given the nature of the OP's post, I feel the need to do so here.



+1

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.07.05 01:28:00 - [13]
 

People who demonstrated are now unsubscribed and no longer able to post.

White Tree
Gallente
Broski Federation
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2011.07.05 01:31:00 - [14]
 

If you knew anything about the living hell I've had to go through these last 5 days to get to Iceland and back you wouldn't be spouting what you're spouting now. A mixture of flight delays, missed flights, lost passports and more just so I could go to Iceland and shout at CCP for 48 hours only to crawl home (I'm STILL not home nearly 72 hours after the summit ended) and I get to come back to people sitting in their diapers crying about how we were 'bought' by CCP. You literally have no idea what you're talking about and I've actually put my physical health on the back burner for YOUR interests and so did the rest of the CSM so just chill out with the endless stream of nonsense you constantly fire at us. We're not superheroes and we made some serious sacrifices to be able to drop EVERYTHING to go to Iceland and hash this out.

We didn't get drunk and we didn't have fun because quite frankly we were too tired, too stressed and too overworked to be able to stop for a moment and consider anyone's concerns other than yours. The same can be mirrored for CCP who were genuinely worried and concerned about the problems the players had. We sat and watched as THE greatest technical achievement the company has ever put forward was perpetually overshadowed by problems. I'm sorry if you didn't get everything you wanted exactly how you wanted it but your entitlements stretch far and beyond their reach so simmer down and think about what you're saying before you say it.

Reilly Duvolle
Posted - 2011.07.05 01:36:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Reilly Duvolle on 05/07/2011 01:42:14
Personally I resubbed because CCP has stated only vanity items for AUR. I dont have a beef with either INCARNA, the NeX store (peacocks lulz) or performance issues (yeah I play with the door).

An observation though - seeing your posting history the last few weeks - it is quite apparant that you are raging to a point where it doenst really matter what CCP or anybody else say, because you will only hear what conforms to the carefully constructed picture that fills your head. I'd step back and allow myself to breath again if I were you.

*shrugs*

Wes Magyar
Caldari
Ex Con Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.05 01:44:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: White Tree
If you knew anything about the living hell I've had to go through these last 5 days to get to Iceland and back you wouldn't be spouting what you're spouting now. A mixture of flight delays, missed flights, lost passports and more just so I could go to Iceland and shout at CCP for 48 hours only to crawl home (I'm STILL not home nearly 72 hours after the summit ended) and I get to come back to people sitting in their diapers crying about how we were 'bought' by CCP. You literally have no idea what you're talking about and I've actually put my physical health on the back burner for YOUR interests and so did the rest of the CSM so just chill out with the endless stream of nonsense you constantly fire at us. We're not superheroes and we made some serious sacrifices to be able to drop EVERYTHING to go to Iceland and hash this out.

We didn't get drunk and we didn't have fun because quite frankly we were too tired, too stressed and too overworked to be able to stop for a moment and consider anyone's concerns other than yours. The same can be mirrored for CCP who were genuinely worried and concerned about the problems the players had. We sat and watched as THE greatest technical achievement the company has ever put forward was perpetually overshadowed by problems. I'm sorry if you didn't get everything you wanted exactly how you wanted it but your entitlements stretch far and beyond their reach so simmer down and think about what you're saying before you say it.


this ^

Terminal Insanity
Minmatar
Convex Enterprises
Posted - 2011.07.05 01:46:00 - [17]
 

And the #1 reason why the protests failed: They were protesting over something that didnt/wasnt going to exist!

AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.05 01:47:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: baltec1
It stopped because the bulk of us didnt want none vanity items. CCP has now said the will not go down that road so we are happy again.

Its as simple as that.


No, they didn't. And no, it's not.

I think it's fair to say that if Incarna had been released with the option to dock-to-hangar, had included a greater variety of prices in the MT store, and had included a commitment from CCP to never sell non-vanity items or convenience or functionality EVER, it would have still been the worst 'expansion' of all time.

So no, after stalling for over a week, (and jeopardizing the mental and physical health and well-being of poor White Tree,) a toothless statement that we have no plans to sell non-vanity items in our vanity items store (which is precisely what the statement says) doesn't cut it.

"It is CCP‘s plan that the Noble Exchange (NeX store) will be used for the sale of vanity items only. There are no plans, and have been no plans, as per previous communication and CSM meetings, to introduce the sale of game breaking items or enhancements in the NeX store."

Tanya Fox
Posted - 2011.07.05 01:51:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: San Severina
Originally by: Kuronaga
What do you believe the protest was attempting to do, Ferguson?

Because I believe it succeeded.

The purpose was to shine a negative light on CCP's actions and force them into a broad public action that the entire gaming world could see.

It did that spectacularly, and regardless of their true intentions if they back out of their promises now they have this ten minute long video showcasing their treachery for all time.

This would be far more damaging then any protest, so all in all... yea, the protest worked perfectly.


We do still have the public statements & Dev Blogs from a year ago telling us EvE was never going down the MT road.

So, I put little weight in the message of the statement or the Vid. We all know what CCP are capable of & how they will justify whatever they decide to do regardless of past promises.

However, i do agree with you that the outcry was not a total failure, it just wasn't the success i would have liked to see.

IMO the statement should have caused further outcry & forced CCP into a much clearer & more specific statement regarding the future of EvE, as it stands a lot of issues weren't even addressed in the statement we have now & they have dropped off the radar except for a small number of players risking all kinds of insults to try to keep them alive here. And that number of players is ever decreasing as subs run out.

I believe CCP is treating this community with total contempt & Hilmar's email confirms this, ultimately it's up to every individual player to make that judgement for themselves, what I don't like to see though is players deliberately turning a blind eye to the issues because they fear having to quit the game, that is weak & it's CCP's edge & they are using it to it's full extent.

Confused



I don't think you would truly be happy with any outcome.

The protest started over mainly non-vanity items that would offer an ingame advantage. Problem is CCP handled it so badly they ****ed off the protesters to such an extent that non-vanity items was not the only thing people wanted, they wanted a pound of flesh from CCP too.

Dev-blog a year ago, things can change, a company's finances can change. So I don't see that as too much of an issue where vanity items are concerned. Companies will do what they can to survive.

You don't trust CCP and even if they did give some kind of guarantee you would still not trust them.

The reason you risk insults as you put it, is you're trying to keep alive a protest when most of the people involved in the protest have left (mainly due to CCPs handling of the whole affair) or decided to give CCP the benefit of the doubt for the time being. Kind of puts you in the fanatic category.

You can't say it's up to the individual player to make a judgement for themselves and in the next breath accuse them of turning a blind eye.


At this stage all you are doing is trying to stir other people up because you want to get back at CCP. The truth is no matter what CCP say, you will not believe them. It really is a simple as that.

Mars Theran
Caldari
EVE Rogues
EVE Rogues Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.05 01:55:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: AkJon Ferguson
Originally by: baltec1
It stopped because the bulk of us didnt want none vanity items. CCP has now said the will not go down that road so we are happy again.

Its as simple as that.


No, they didn't. And no, it's not.

I think it's fair to say that if Incarna had been released with the option to dock-to-hangar, had included a greater variety of prices in the MT store, and had included a commitment from CCP to never sell non-vanity items or convenience or functionality EVER, it would have still been the worst 'expansion' of all time.

So no, after stalling for over a week, (and jeopardizing the mental and physical health and well-being of poor White Tree,) a toothless statement that we have no plans to sell non-vanity items in our vanity items store (which is precisely what the statement says) doesn't cut it.

"It is CCP‘s plan that the Noble Exchange (NeX store) will be used for the sale of vanity items only. There are no plans, and have been no plans, as per previous communication and CSM meetings, to introduce the sale of game breaking items or enhancements in the NeX store."


Some people will never be happy with anything. I hate to think that CCP will take a dim view of continued BS like you're posting, and eventually decide to do as other developers do, and ignore the community entirely, while cutting off and removing any means of feedback and communication. You are spoiled! Like a child who gets ice cream whenever it cries for it; gets to stay up late, because it cries for it; gets to play video games all day, why it's mother cleans the room, spoiled.

AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.05 01:59:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Zero GodOfDestruction
I disagree with #7

Perpetuum online- I've been playing it since last week, and to be perfectly honest, I like better than eve.


I've tried it. I REALLY wanted to like it. I'm glad you do, though. But fwiu they're already talking about going the MT route as well (which is fair enough for a new game, I suppose.)

Haulie Berry
Posted - 2011.07.05 02:00:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: White Tree
If you knew anything about the living hell I've had to go through these last 5 days to get to Iceland and back you wouldn't be spouting what you're spouting now. A mixture of flight delays, missed flights, lost passports and more just so I could go to Iceland and shout at CCP for 48 hours only to crawl home (I'm STILL not home nearly 72 hours after the summit ended) and I get to come back to people sitting in their diapers crying about how we were 'bought' by CCP. You literally have no idea what you're talking about and I've actually put my physical health on the back burner for YOUR interests and so did the rest of the CSM so just chill out with the endless stream of nonsense you constantly fire at us. We're not superheroes and we made some serious sacrifices to be able to drop EVERYTHING to go to Iceland and hash this out.

We didn't get drunk and we didn't have fun because quite frankly we were too tired, too stressed and too overworked to be able to stop for a moment and consider anyone's concerns other than yours. The same can be mirrored for CCP who were genuinely worried and concerned about the problems the players had. We sat and watched as THE greatest technical achievement the company has ever put forward was perpetually overshadowed by problems. I'm sorry if you didn't get everything you wanted exactly how you wanted it but your entitlements stretch far and beyond their reach so simmer down and think about what you're saying before you say it.


Oh, for ****'s sake - you took an all-expenses paid trip to Iceland to meekly suggest to CCP that they should maybe consider making a vague and entirely non-committal statement to appease the angry mob. Please climb down off that cross.

Merouk Baas
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.05 02:01:00 - [23]
 

Is "shouting at CCP" in person more effective than our shouting at them via the forums and via the (however few) cancelled subscriptions? Because, it's 2011, there's a plethora of electronic communication methods available, from webcams to voice servers to telephone to text. Whatever the reason is that they wanted you personally on site (NDA?), THAT's what you put your physical health on the back burner for.

The "problems the players had" are still there, are they not?

Darik Jita
Posted - 2011.07.05 02:12:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: White Tree
If you knew anything about the living hell I've had to go through these last 5 days to get to Iceland and back you wouldn't be spouting what you're spouting now. A mixture of flight delays, missed flights, lost passports and more just so I could go to Iceland and shout at CCP for 48 hours only to crawl home (I'm STILL not home nearly 72 hours after the summit ended) and I get to come back to people sitting in their diapers crying about how we were 'bought' by CCP. You literally have no idea what you're talking about and I've actually put my physical health on the back burner for YOUR interests and so did the rest of the CSM so just chill out with the endless stream of nonsense you constantly fire at us. We're not superheroes and we made some serious sacrifices to be able to drop EVERYTHING to go to Iceland and hash this out.

We didn't get drunk and we didn't have fun because quite frankly we were too tired, too stressed and too overworked to be able to stop for a moment and consider anyone's concerns other than yours. The same can be mirrored for CCP who were genuinely worried and concerned about the problems the players had. We sat and watched as THE greatest technical achievement the company has ever put forward was perpetually overshadowed by problems. I'm sorry if you didn't get everything you wanted exactly how you wanted it but your entitlements stretch far and beyond their reach so simmer down and think about what you're saying before you say it.


I stand with the CSM in principle, but your response, Ms. Tree, displays poor impulse control. Politicians don't ***** at their constituents (assuming they want to enjoy continued popular support).

Tanya Fox
Posted - 2011.07.05 02:13:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Merouk Baas
The "problems the players had" are still there, are they not?



I'd say non-vanity items that give ingame advantages are out of the picture in the short-term. In the long-term I don't think there's any guarantees.

CSMs were elected as representatives for the community, so you should be using those CSMs to communicate with CCP.

Ianus
Caldari
Geminus Gateway
Posted - 2011.07.05 02:15:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Ianus on 05/07/2011 02:21:36
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
People who demonstrated are now unsubscribed and no longer able to post.

This is wishful thinking in general, but certainly true for some.

@OP: The protests didn't fail. The goal, as I saw it, was to raise awareness of the problems and to put some pressure in CCP by gathering media attention and otherwise being a nuisance. Players hoped putting up a show would be enough to reverse course, but they also knew (the serious ones at least) that it would ultimately be decided by how many of them stopped playing after all was said and done.

That time has come, and now its time for CCP to make their move.

Does this mean I'm happy with the outcome? Hell no, but I believe it would be worse had the protests never occured, and so I won't label them a failure.
Neither do you, btw, you just wanted a catchy thread title. Razz

K'iran
Spirit of EVE
Posted - 2011.07.05 02:18:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: K''iran on 05/07/2011 02:26:55
There's two things at work here:

First and foremost the non-vanity items.

Secondly, I'm sure there's a large group of people who feel that Hilmar's email just doesn't sit right, especially as it's not mentioned at all by CCP (CSM's harsh statement on it is a good indication of that). Combined with the gut feeling that WoD and Dust are taking away resources and dev time that could and should have been spent on EVE, there's many things which require a lot of attention DEV wise, and lots of people feel that EVE development is put on the back burner.

The first bit was addressed and "solved", as such it can be called a success. and yes the CSM (even though a particular one chose to portray it as a party) DID put in tons of personal time&effort to make it happen. The second bit keeps on lingering but ultimately wasn't what this was all about, directly. Still, it needs to be addressed and taken care of at some point.

We're not out of the woods yet and it's going to need a whole lot of verifiable commitment of CCP towards EVE (not the WoD part called Incarna) to win back what they lost, in terms of trust and all that.

Dasola
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.05 02:27:00 - [28]
 

you think it failed, i think it was huge success..

Newer before we have seen such a strong get to gether from all walks of eve. we had highsec carebears, lowsec pirates and even 0.0 habitants participating mass protests...

We made massive headlines among gaming community in general (various websites). For good or bad, it brought problem in atention of general gaming public.

We got ccp atention in way they newer expected. CCP called emergency summit to deal with it.

We got things cleared, now we watch very very closely what ccp does. If they mess up, protests will flame up again and this time it wont be as easy to deal with.

Personally i feel its time ccp prove themself that they are now screwing us over. Talks are now over, cease fire has been declared and now we wait their actions to macth what they speak.

will be interestig to see if next QEN ever gets out of door, what impact that mass protest had on jitas daily turnover. Razz

Zeko Rena
Caldari
Tankt
Posted - 2011.07.05 02:30:00 - [29]
 

Hard to tell if it failed or not, if the next 8 expansions are all useless crap for station walking with nothing new for spaceships, then it failed, imo

Rikanin
Gallente
The Azerick Corporation
Posted - 2011.07.05 02:31:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Darik Jita
Originally by: White Tree
If you knew anything about the living hell I've had to go through these last 5 days to get to Iceland and back you wouldn't be spouting what you're spouting now. A mixture of flight delays, missed flights, lost passports and more just so I could go to Iceland and shout at CCP for 48 hours only to crawl home (I'm STILL not home nearly 72 hours after the summit ended) and I get to come back to people sitting in their diapers crying about how we were 'bought' by CCP. You literally have no idea what you're talking about and I've actually put my physical health on the back burner for YOUR interests and so did the rest of the CSM so just chill out with the endless stream of nonsense you constantly fire at us. We're not superheroes and we made some serious sacrifices to be able to drop EVERYTHING to go to Iceland and hash this out.

We didn't get drunk and we didn't have fun because quite frankly we were too tired, too stressed and too overworked to be able to stop for a moment and consider anyone's concerns other than yours. The same can be mirrored for CCP who were genuinely worried and concerned about the problems the players had. We sat and watched as THE greatest technical achievement the company has ever put forward was perpetually overshadowed by problems. I'm sorry if you didn't get everything you wanted exactly how you wanted it but your entitlements stretch far and beyond their reach so simmer down and think about what you're saying before you say it.


I stand with the CSM in principle, but your response, Ms. Tree, displays poor impulse control. Politicians don't ***** at their constituents (assuming they want to enjoy continued popular support).


I disagree - I thought he was KIND given the amount of unfounded accusations and overt *****iness directed at the CSM since this whole thing started. And with people like this as constituents...who'd WANT their continuing popular support?


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