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govtcheeze
Caldari
DROW Org
Brotherhood of the Spider
Posted - 2011.07.04 18:06:00 - [1]
 

Hello MD,

I have what I believe is an unorthodox investment plan that I wanted to share. This is my first post here, although I have dabbled in markets for a long time and occasionally browse the forums. I do not do finance so a lot of topics are over my head but I do love game economies.

Summary:
Return timeline: 3-4 months for initial, returns continue until you cancel
Your collateral: BPO(s)
My collateral: My virtual and real life identity
Target investor: 50b+ NAV but any are welcome, as long as you realize this is not a MMF routine
Risk: beyond the initial level of trust, nearly zero
Returns: highly variable based on your investment
Initial phase: BPO research and copy, will expand to invention
Limits: I would like to limit this to 5 capital BPOs for the initial rollout
Expansion: If cash and demand allows, yes. Your investment is not linked to or diluted by expansion.

What started this idea:
I currently run a POS running as many capital BPOs as I can afford. I still have open lines and with more cash would fill them with additional BPO. As I do not, I fill them with sub-capital trash just to keep the factory working and bring in a few extra profits.

I have also seen a rash of "too much money", nothing to do, no "rush", etc pop up. This got me thinking there may be a market segment that would want to give this a try.

As someone who has owned multiple businesses RL,I know the value of looking your customer in the eye and having that personal touch. I also understand that all investments with strangers contain a significant amount of risk. This one more than others. By offering up what I consider premium collateral in an online game (my RL identity) I hope to quickly build trust and reduce as much fear as possible. If I was going to scam, I would not give out my home phone number, address, or other personal details which could result in possible severe retaliation. I am also staking a long standing online reputation on this which goes as far back as text based MUDs.

How it works / The Terms:
If you wish to invest, I will provide my real life details to you. We can have a phone call to discuss the deal. You can google map me, I can take “proof of life” photos outside my house. Whatever you need to feel comfortable that I am who I say I am. It’s extreme but I feel needed to justify the next step.

You provide me with the BPO you want researched and copied.

I will research it to optimal levels of ME (and PE, if justified). This is the Alpha cycle.

The copy cycles will start. Each cycle consists of 2 copies, you will always receive the first copy and I will retain the second copy.

I plan to get into invention of these capitals, but that will be a later phase and contain some additional terms. Your participation will be voluntary.

At any point you can pull out, and your BPO will be returned to you at the end of the cycle. If you wish to terminate during the Alpha cycle, the current research level will be allowed to finish and I will make a copy for myself and then return the BPO to you.

govtcheeze
Caldari
DROW Org
Brotherhood of the Spider
Posted - 2011.07.04 18:08:00 - [2]
 

Services:
I will provide prospectives on each of the capital BPOs including my turnaround time, supply/demand trends, and estimated profit based on those trends. Right now a lot of this is in my head with rough numbers, but if this idea materializes I want to provide as much information to my customers as possible. I can supply most of this now but it’s not in any formalized deliverable.

I will provide which and how many BPOs are currently being handled by me, so you do not end up competing with another customer (unless you choose to do so). I will include my own research in those figures.

While I do not prefer it, you can remain anonymous in this investment. I would like all investors to at least be linked up so you can compare notes on who I am and the progress being made. I am also trying to build a reputation to expand this operation and word of mouth is a powerful tool.

Full disclosure:
According to EVE Assets with full API key enabled, I currently manage ~10b NAV NOT counting ~300 BPOs (3 capitals) and BPCs. I am asking people to hand me BPOs that are worth potentially many times my value. That fact is not lost on me.

At the risk of raising a red flag, I do not plan to provide my API key. I use EveMEEP to manage my jobs and would be happy to provide screen prints of your jobs running, but the risk of handing out my key seems too great. It’s more a privacy issue for me… I have nothing to hide; it just seems weird to have someone rooting through all my account details. If this becomes the only reason people will not invest, I may be flexible if there is a trusted resource to handle this kind of validation.

During the chaos of Incarna I made a few posts asking for BPOs if people were quitting. I did receive some but unfortunately did not land that big fish giving away their high end stuff.

Why not post a bond or go the traditional route:
I want to keep this as simple as possible for my first outing. Isk is too “soft” and having a single BPO with a single owner and a set value just seems like a better way for me to manage my first investment offering.

Why I calculate risk as ”nearly zero”:
I know this is a legitimate business investment. BPOs increase in value as they are researched. Being able to sell off copies only adds additional revenue. At the end of the arrangement there should be no issue re-couping the BPO investment plus additional monies for the research time. I understand handing over a BPO is 100% risk, but hopefully my real life collateral will counter those fears and provide you with the confidence to invest.

”If I wanted to get into BPOs I could have done this myself”:
Agreed. My target audience is people with a ton of cash who not looking for quick profits and want it to work for them in a nearly risk free environment. I handle all of the day-to-day of running the POS, shuttling resources, jobs, skills, etc. You just hand me the BPO and collect your copy every X days.

Why limit to just 5 for the initial offering:
This is my first public offering. I have done other investments in multiple games and included a few trusted friends to come along for the ride, but think it is now time to test the public waters. I want to make sure I am not getting in too deep and if expansion is necessary I will expand at a pace I can afford.

A bit about me:
I have owned and sold a few small start-ups, been a project manager for a software company and am currently a web developer for a public company. I have a minor in math and economics. I have been gaming since I was 8 (286 no ram orange monitor FTW) and when I got into MMOs I really gravitated toward the markets. I have been in the top 10 worldwide and server wide “most wealth” lists in various MMOs. I game under the handles Narek and govtcheeze and have belonged to Drow since 2005.

govtcheeze
Caldari
DROW Org
Brotherhood of the Spider
Posted - 2011.07.04 18:10:00 - [3]
 

Final thoughts:
Well, there it is. Feedback appreciated…I am throwing myself at the mercy of the shark tank. I believe this is a solid way for you to make some passive low risk income and hope you agree.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Candy Oshea
Amarr
Techfree Investment Group
Posted - 2011.07.05 04:52:00 - [4]
 

so as i understand it, you want players to blindly give you capital BPO's, with nothing from you in return, wait 4-5 months until research is optimal then give them 1 copy per 'cycle' to sell? (with you pocketing 1 copy also) Shockedugh

why would anyone in their right mind want to do this through another player? Neutral

IMO, If you have the isk for a cap BPO, you have the isk for a research POS. ugh

govtcheeze
Caldari
DROW Org
Brotherhood of the Spider
Posted - 2011.07.05 06:59:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Candy Oshea
so as i understand it, you want players to blindly give you capital BPOs, with nothing from you in return, wait 4-5 months until research is optimal then give them 1 copy per 'cycle' to sell? (with you pocketing 1 copy also) Shockedugh


I disagree with the assertion that I am giving nothing in return. A person's real life identity is such a valued and protected commodity that most public forums prevent posting such information without permission. While I of course risk running into an "internet crazy" I know I will not be scamming them, enraging them, or otherwise causing them to seek retaliation and therefore am comfortable with the idea. Maybe an investor knows someone in my town. Great, have them drive by. Stop in and have a beer to discuss the deal. I will make that personal connection to ease as much anxiety as possible. No hiding behind alts or internet spaceships. "Face to face".

Quote:
why would anyone in their right mind want to do this through another player? Neutral

IMO, If you have the isk for a cap BPO, you have the isk for a research POS. ugh


I already addressed this above, but let me go into more details.

Investors would do this for the same reason they do not still haul trade hubs, mess with the markets, or research / manufacture but instead invest in other people doing those things. I picture most investors here (and especially my target audience) as people who have earned vast amounts of wealth doing those activities. They have stopped working for their money and are allowing their money to work for them, tapping into their expertise and risk analysis to determine a good investment. All of what goes into running a research POS isn't a worry to them. All they need to care about is BPO in, BPO + copy(s) out.

This would also be a way to diversify into a tangible asset that historically has held or increased in value over time, while collecting regular dividends. Would this be as profitable as some of the other investments posted? Probably not. But from my side of the table is also carries nearly zero risk to the investor. You are guaranteed to receive a product worth more than when you started, and you will also collect payouts along the way. I stated this is not make money fast. This is a slow process that requires patience on the uptake but longer you go the lower your "dollar cost average".

Perhaps I catch the right person at the right time who says to them self "Let's give this unproven guy a shot. I need a new risk rush and this is it". Or they just do not want to put in the large time investment of corp standings, skills, PI, and job shuffling.

I said this was an unorthodox plan. There are really only 2 ways to calculate the risk. Start to finish, it is infinite. You are giving up a high value asset and receiving nothing in-game and no amount of return can make this a good investment. If you start at the point of "OK I trust this plan" your risk is nearly zero and this becomes a stable slow growth investment. There is not a lot of middle ground but the principle is the same as other investments here. I ask for a widget up front, the widget gets provided and you receive small payments for the use of your widget. At the end you cash out your widget and its value has increased over time.

My bottom line is this. I have a factory running below optimal efficiency. If I had the funds I would be filling those slots myself with the highest profit potential items. Because I cannot afford to purchase more BPOs at this time I wanted to offer the opportunity for others to tap into my established production line. This may not be for anyone and that's OK with me as I can still fill my slots with lesser profitable items.

I did forget to mention one important thing in my "How this works" section. If someone already has a researched BPO we can jump right to copy phases and skip the initial time for researching. Sorry for this omission.

Thank you for your questions.

Faith Clothos
Posted - 2011.07.05 07:11:00 - [6]
 

This has to be the stupidest thing I have seen in these forums.

What, pry tell, is the utility of your identity to anyone?

Lets humor the (of course unlikely Rolling Eyes) scenario where you steal however many BPO's.

What good is your collateral?

Will your creditor call the police and tell them how you stole his spaceship blueprints? will he come over and break your knees? Will he stand with a placard reading "spaceship thief" in your driveway?

Oh wait, he will call your boss and tell him!

"Yeah is this govtcheeze boss? I'm calling cause he stole my stuff in our online spaceships game"

Or perhaps your mum?

And what if its not your identity at all but a guy you know, or even some random bloke whose flat you got access to?

You may as well throw in the identity of your mum so your investor can tell on you Laughing

OllieNorth
Gallente
R-K Industries
Posted - 2011.07.05 22:39:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: OllieNorth on 05/07/2011 22:40:30
I have to agree, just because everyone wants to protect their identity online doesn't mean that everyone wants YOUR identity. If you give me your RL bank account number and then steal my BPOs, it doesn't do me any good. Any actions I take to recover from you IRL would be impractical at best and most likely illegal. Therefore, your RL identity is useless to me unless I am willing to take illegal RL actions to recoup my Internet Clicky Spaceship losses. Good thought, but not worth much besides a talking point.

Edit: Finally read the whole wall of text. You will give us your RL details but NOT an API check?!! You crazy bro.Shocked

Strrog
Caldari
Zero Excavations
Posted - 2011.07.05 22:55:00 - [8]
 

I have seen DROW before, they are folks that actually belong to multi-game community, pretty solid hardcore crew.

I will see how thread develops, and will double check the origin of the corp :). I might be interested in few bill investment.

govtcheeze
Caldari
DROW Org
Brotherhood of the Spider
Posted - 2011.07.05 23:46:00 - [9]
 

My RL info is already out there as I own a domain and have an easily traceable online history. I am willing to confirm that info (and maybe update, been awhile?) to be current so people could get a hold of me and have a true RL-ish transaction, "face to face". I have no delusions that having my RL info would somehow allow you to recover loses in the event of a scam.

What I am saying is that I do not fear the "internet crazies". Those people who take RL action against people who wrong them on the internet. Maybe not the investor, but their brother's ex-roommate from college who lives in the next city over and he decides to cut down some trees or whatever. No wrong would be done, hence no fear of any adverse action. I am basically saying "If I screw you, you know where to find me".

Please note that I did not say I wouldn't provide my API key. I will not be handing it out but will consider using a trusted third party if that is required to verify my facts.

Strrog posted in the middle of my reply. I wanted this deal to stand on my own merits but since the door was opened I will briefly talk about Drow. I am the current CEO of the Eve team. We had a large active team a few years back but in a cut-throat game like Eve the high road is seldom rewarded. People got frustrated and some moved on to other games. I would be expelled immediately, from an organization I have belonged to exclusively since 2005, for any shenanigans.

Thanks again for your replies and consideration.

Strrog
Caldari
Zero Excavations
Posted - 2011.07.06 00:21:00 - [10]
 

I have one question to check here:

Do I need to have a BPO to get into this investment or just isk will do?

The question came into my head after i read this second time:

You provide me with the BPO you want researched and copied.

govtcheeze
Caldari
DROW Org
Brotherhood of the Spider
Posted - 2011.07.06 01:30:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Strrog
I have one question to check here:

Do I need to have a BPO to get into this investment or just isk will do?

The question came into my head after i read this second time:

You provide me with the BPO you want researched and copied.


Ugh something just clicked by you asking that question. I previously said my view on investors is they no longer have interest working for their money but put their money to work. Yet this requires you to track down and deliver a BPO, sell copies and then sell the BPO. I don't mind these tasks ... just part of the job. Job. My work, not yours.

You are correct, I do not want to handle isk at this time. I need to do a lot more reading on how isk requests work before I am comfortable posting one.

The offer still stands, but I think my first attempt here is a swing and a miss that I will chalk up to a learning experience.

Thanks everyone for the education :)

Tzeneth
Posted - 2011.07.06 03:44:00 - [12]
 

I think the only way you are going to get people to even risk is if, at minimum, you get an audit from a respectable person. This involves giving your API away to someone. This is probably the only way to build even a modicum of trust.

Another point is this: your target audience most likely doesn't mind doing all the work. So I don't know if you could find any potential offerings even if they could get over the trust hurdle.


 

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