open All Channels
seplocked Assembly Hall
blankseplocked [Discussion] Market bots - Good or Evil?
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: 1 [2]

Author Topic

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.07 11:03:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 07/07/2011 11:06:15
Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 07/07/2011 11:04:14

Quote:
SNIP!


Dear Mr Tom Hagan,

If you carefully read all the previous posts, you will see that one of the suggestions was to make an in game 'auto-match' order. This order matcher can presumably work even when you are not logged on, thereby making your DT arguement moot. As this is a discussion, not a proposal, it's just a matter of using your imagination to think of something that will work.

So the point here that is worth discussion farther, is where you mentioned that the EVE market is closed and not this same as real life. I contend that it is closer than you think. SURE it won't have famines etc, but we aren't trading in wheat here are we? The 'commodities' that we are trading in EVE are weapons and materials of war. These can indeed hit famine and surplus cycles as alliance wars ebb and flow. The arguement for 'bots' (and I use the word in quotes as to dissuade you from unnecessarily attacking some perceived flaw in one inferred implementation of it), is that the market as it is has room for more sophistication in trading *strategies* not continually butting its head against the ceiling of mechanical limitations. The trading game now is 50% brains 50% hovering over the "update order" button like a well trained monkey. I would like to think that if we all had such a monkey to use, then we can concentrate on the part of trading that requires a human brain to excel at.

So am I arguing that well trained monkeys should be edged out of the market at the big hubs, well I guess I am. :)

Fionn Grashach
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.07.09 06:08:00 - [32]
 

came across this looking for Lenard Cohen lyrics of all places:

Quote:
Need bot for game eve online, the game is written in python.
Should be memory based, not based on OCR or macros.
Basic function of the bot should be:
Check orders to make sure they are the highest when buying and the lowest when selling.
Built in stops so that if the price moves by more than x, it should cancel the order
Once an order is fulfilled it should either check to see that the trade was profitable and rebuy or if a buy order was filled to list the item at the lowest price.
Should work at random intervals

Hope to develop a relationship with the programmer so that as the game gets updated and patched we can work to make sure it still works!


original




Naomi Knight
Amarr
Posted - 2011.07.09 07:24:00 - [33]
 

fsss
there will be players who uses bots anyway no matter what ccps policy is
if you want remain competitve you have to have your own bot
it is just the way it works with current market settings

imho the best to do is to eliminating the 0.1 isk boredom

there should be price ranges which would eliminate this , and the result of an order would be random selected within that price range
the difference could be 1% between price ranges , so if you want to compete you would have to lower your prices at least by 1% that should
this would be hard to code and implement ,cant see ccp would ever do this

or just make that changing market order needs to be at least 1% difference ,<-- easy to implement and could work

or increase change delay to half hour or more--> need less frequent price changes (this would be the least good)

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.20 07:47:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Naomi Knight
fsss
there will be players who uses bots anyway no matter what ccps policy is
if you want remain competitve you have to have your own bot
it is just the way it works with current market settings

imho the best to do is to eliminating the 0.1 isk boredom

there should be price ranges which would eliminate this , and the result of an order would be random selected within that price range
the difference could be 1% between price ranges , so if you want to compete you would have to lower your prices at least by 1% that should
this would be hard to code and implement ,cant see ccp would ever do this

or just make that changing market order needs to be at least 1% difference ,<-- easy to implement and could work

or increase change delay to half hour or more--> need less frequent price changes (this would be the least good)


You are on the right track, but I would say that 1% is a little strange, as you force people to do some quick math in their head everytime they change an order in order not to get rejected because it is under the limit. Which is bad.
Better would be to have a tick ladder of min isk changes. In following RL they should represent a basis point, which is 1/100 of a percent. Floored by 0.01 isk.
IE
Price Range ==> tick size
1-999 ==>0.01 isk
1000-9999 ==>0.1 isk
10,000-99,999 ==>1 isk
100,000-999,999==>10 isk
1mil-99mil ==>100 isk
100mil-999mil ==>1000 isk
etc...

I realize this isn't a complete solution. the 0.01 botters will soon adjust so that they make the minimum increase required. But at least that increase will be significant enough that the price will indeed move a bit more than 0.01 isk on large orders.

Negative on the changing of order time to 30min though. We do not want to penalize those who actually want to spend all day updating their orders.


Sanphesta
Posted - 2011.07.20 11:14:00 - [35]
 

Stupid idea for several *billion* reasons....

the entire concept is wrong- if ccp cant eliminate "all" bots they should accept/control/manage them? Yea that wouldnt work. It could make it even harder to catch (other, still illegal)bots

too much potential for abuse. allowing market bots would (almost immediately) crash the wholesale/retail spread (profit margins would be a fraction of a percent)- but if you combined a hauler bot in there hmmmmmm

this bot is allowed but this other bot isnt? i realize some ppl are going to use them anyway but once you legitimize a bot it will open a botting floodgate

why would you even want this? isnt the purpose of a game- to be played? Sure you would have to configure the bot- but can a few mins and let it run for days/weeks be called playing?

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.20 15:15:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 20/07/2011 15:15:45
Originally by: Sanphesta
Stupid idea for several *billion* reasons....

the entire concept is wrong- if ccp cant eliminate "all" bots they should accept/control/manage them? Yea that wouldnt work. It could make it even harder to catch (other, still illegal)bots

too much potential for abuse. allowing market bots would (almost immediately) crash the wholesale/retail spread (profit margins would be a fraction of a percent)- but if you combined a hauler bot in there hmmmmmm

this bot is allowed but this other bot isnt? i realize some ppl are going to use them anyway but once you legitimize a bot it will open a botting floodgate

why would you even want this? isnt the purpose of a game- to be played? Sure you would have to configure the bot- but can a few mins and let it run for days/weeks be called playing?


I'm going to assume you didn't read the large part of this thread. This 'bot' you are referring to would be an in game order bumper. Perhaps only in certain hubs (like Jita). This is NOT a 3rd party bot. It will be in game. Lot's of stuff happen in game already without player attention after setup. R&D, manufacturing, skill training. And at the risk of repeating what I and others have already said in this thread, an auto order bumping system ISN'T an IWIN button. In fact, it will probably lose more than win as real humans will exploit bots like a bad chess AI.

Anyway, this is not a WE NEED THIS ASAP thread, so please take your animosity and testosterone elsewhere if you have excess of either. It's a discussion thread. We are looking for Pros, cons, what potential changes it will make to the way the market works, and if it would be a bad or good thing overall. (making markets in EVE more like markets in real life, that is)


Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.31 03:28:00 - [37]
 

Incidentally, Ebay has a similar 'bot' (order bumper) already. You enter your bid, and you enter the maximum price at which you would be willing to buy. If your bid gets beaten, it will bump it to the top until it reaches your cap. I believe this makes for efficient markets and trading less of a clickfest and more of a thinking persons game.

Interesting point point put forward was this

Quote:
too much potential for abuse. allowing market bots would (almost immediately) crash the wholesale/retail spread (profit margins would be a fraction of a percent)


I am curious to know why you think this will happen. I suppose if you didn't cap your 'bot' so that it just blindly kept on bumping until you crossed the spread. But then, that would be the operators decision. Maybe you just want to get out if the market moves? It's a legitimate strategy.

Besides, (on a parallel thread) smaller spreads -> more volume which is actually signs of an efficient market, which benefits everyone, especially market takers.



Tuggboat
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.31 05:11:00 - [38]
 

HOw about a bot but programmed by ccp like the ebay bots where you pick a max price but the bot only increments as far as it has to and only 1 isk more/ay there's a buy at 30 and you say you would bid up to 35 but the program recognizes that 30.01 would win the next buy.

THis might have to be combined with an enforced buy order cancellation time like you can run the price up but you can't cancel your buy until tomorrow? Needs some work on the margin order scam though.

I think this would eliminate fine granularity and allow make for more rapid spread changes and make the game more exciting.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.31 06:31:00 - [39]
 

That's exactly the proposal, yes.
You can also choose to have your order manually watched if you like. The order bot is not mandatory.

Pros:
-Opens up the trading profession for differentiation. Smart traders can then make money too, not just the 'good at updating every 5 min' traders. Adds depth the trading profession. Reward good trading strategy, not just click fest mechanics.

-Allow for more long term horizon trading. Otherwise known as strategic trading. Due to eve mechanics all eve traders now are forced to be day traders ( intraday edits to orders ) even if they don't want to be. I may only have monthly views on the movement of tritanium. I should not have to micromanage my large orders.

If you couple with this the ability to delegate your corp orders to a corp mate to manage, then you can setup a bonafide trading corp. Head trader makes the decisions and strategy, junior traders manage them and for the really low pri orders the auto-match bot can.

Cons.
-Would allow traders to move their orders when not in the local region. This may cause a flood of unwanted server traffic and activity also imbalance the current decentralize regional markets, and lesson the value of the contract markets. ( though setting up bad bot order that you cannot modify can lose you money just as fast )

Mitigation:
Bot only works or can only be modified when you are in 'day trading' range of the station.

-Would allow for some 1 unit orders to be used to auto manipulate the market.
Mitigation:
Only allow orders over a certain size to be auto-watchable. Small orders must be manually watched. Or charge a fee for use of the auto-watch bot per order. This is not unlike real life brokerage commission charges.





Pages: 1 [2]

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only