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Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.04 04:09:00 - [1]
 

Okay, this is meant as a discussion only, so I ask that you please refrain from trolling or flaming.

The topic is no doubt going to be contentious and going to cause a lot of heated opinions, and perhaps maybe against the current EULA, but that's why I would like to put it up for discussion.

Premise:
Allow 'market' bots.
OR
Completely enforce the no-bot policy

Now that I have your attention, let me present to you both sides of this.

Currently I do not think that the enforcement of no-bot policy can be achieved 100%. Its an uphill battle for CCP to track down botters, and it makes market trading unfair to those who aren't using bots. (any visit to Jita will illustrate how impossible it is to keep up with a standing order on the market in an environment where your order will be beat every 5min with one that is .01 isk higher.)

So, what is the downside of allowing market bots? In fact, that is exactly how RL markets work. Live broker markets are a thing of the past and the world runs on trading algorithms nowadays. Banks and hedge funds have their own proprietary market trading algorithms, which compete with live traders all the time. Trading algo's have pros and cons, pros being that they can react faster than humans, cons being that they are static strategies which can be exploited by smart human traders. I do not see a downside to allowing both to live in harmony.

The current trading skill progression system is geared towards bulk order watching, which is not really feasible for humans to handle. If you max out your skills, you can have 305 open orders. At that level, checking all your orders systematically is very time consuming, and a live human can no longer compete with someone with less orders to check (let's assume that both are continuously checking and updating orders, as fast as they can). If we assume a conservative 15sec it takes to check and update an order, it will take a human 1 hour 15min to go through all their orders. Now that means that they no longer can compete with somebody who has say, only 5 open orders to watch. This creates a obstacle and disadvantage to those with more orders open, which creates an artificial barrier to improving your trading skills (why bother, when you cannot gain any advantage to do so). Instead traders will stay to a low number of higher margin orders, instead of more orders with lower margin. This completely makes these trading skills useless. You may argue then that this high skilled trader should just put their standing orders closer to the mid (taking less profit) in order to dissuade the .01 iskers from beating them. That will work, but then their orders will fill a lot faster, thereby negating the need for skills that increase their open order count in the first place.

So what if we allowed bots to make the electronic market? Opponents would be quick to point out that it would edge out all those casual traders. Yes it would. BUT, what if we only allowed it at one exchange? Say Jita. In the real world each exchange sets its own rules. You can trade electronically in certain exchanges and others not. At Jita, let's say we allow bots to create the most efficient market for order takers (that's you, the consumers) Perhaps at Amarr as well and the other trade hubs in the Empire. This is where you will get the best price as a buyer/seller (as bots will continually update orders at the fastest speeds) Other places, bot's will not be allowed, so manual trading will still be possible, for those traders who do hauling and inter-regional trades.

Let's discuss, please list out any pro's and con's that you can think of.

Summary:
PROS:
- make current higher trading skills not useless, and actually worth something, for order placers
- make a more efficient market for order takers at trade hubs,
- make managing 305 open orders actually possible.
- take away the advantage of the .01 isk order bumpers
CONS:
- tricky to enforce no-bots at non-hubs





Henry Haphorn
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.04 04:49:00 - [2]
 

You will be hard pressed to learn that there are capsuleers who will refuse to allow botting of any form to flurish in New Eden.

Of course, you are correct to assume that the war on bots is an uphill battle. But regardless of the odds, we, the hard-working capsuleers, chose to become the check and balance against bots. We spy on them, petition them, and (if possible) gank them.

I commend you, of course, for bring up this topic just to debate the pros and cons.

Oh and by the way...

Quote:
Summary:
PROS:
- make current higher trading skills not useless, and actually worth something, for order placers
- make a more efficient market for order takers at trade hubs,
- make managing 305 open orders actually possible.
- take away the advantage of the .01 isk order bumpers
CONS:
- tricky to enforce no-bots at non-hubs
- this will open the flood gates to more botting due to the encouragement it brings
- It could potentially take away the player element of the player-driven Eve market



Fixed it for you.

EdwardNardella
Capital Construction Research
Posted - 2011.07.04 05:05:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Henry Haphorn

- this will open the flood gates to more botting due to the encouragement it brings
- It could potentially take away the player element of the player-driven Eve market


Why do you think this?

Darryl Ward
Posted - 2011.07.04 08:02:00 - [4]
 

You have a point, and Eve's economy has grown to the point where sophisticated traders would want to use bots.

CCP should not ever allow people to run 3rd party mods with Eve.

But if it designed an interface where people could program market bots, that would work.

One problem with designated exchanges is that it would fix trade hubs. CCP didn't make Jita the biggest trade hub, the player economy did. It's possible that at some point in the future, Jita won't be the big trade hub, and possibly not a trade hub at all. I can't imagine how, but it's possible. If you fix exchanges for market bots, then you make these places permanent trade hubs.

Bo Tosh
Posted - 2011.07.04 09:21:00 - [5]
 

Not Supported.

I do understand where you are coming from since I also have to invest a reasonable amount of time maintaining a large buy/sell order portfolio with my trade alt but I cannot support this proposal. Allowing any trader (including myself) an unfair advantage through the use of bots is only opening the door for the eventual legal use of mining, hauling and ratting bots.

Let us not forget that the time spent trading is part of the investment you make in this game, as is that mining, hauling and ratting. If any activity is something a player finds boring then they should do something different not "have their cake and eat it" by automating the process.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.04 10:09:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Henry Haphorn

- this will open the flood gates to more botting due to the encouragement it brings
- It could potentially take away the player element of the player-driven Eve market



Fixed it for you.


I'd like to addrees these...

the first may well be true, if careful safe guards are not put in place. I do not want to encourage mining bots or missioning bots. They do not suffer the same problem as trading as trading involves a strategy, even if bots are used (what level to match the price, etc etc. Trader still needs to decide WHAT to trade and how far to chase an order. Bots are just executing the instructions. This is exactly how equity trading algos in the real world work, you set the participation rate, or the slippage from VWAP that you are willing to accept before taking the market etc etc.

The second statement needs some supporting evidence. I do not believe it will take away any player driven-ness of the market at all. For all the arguments above. What it does take away is the tedious nature of order matching. Tasks that even real world traders do not do.... We pay BROKERS to do this. Why is the Brokers in EVE useless in this regard? In real life, I can ask my broker to match any order up to 10% of my limit. And nobody will argue that the equity markets are any less driven by real players.


Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.04 10:15:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Bo Tosh
Not Supported.

I do understand where you are coming from since I also have to invest a reasonable amount of time maintaining a large buy/sell order portfolio with my trade alt but I cannot support this proposal. Allowing any trader (including myself) an unfair advantage through the use of bots is only opening the door for the eventual legal use of mining, hauling and ratting bots.

Let us not forget that the time spent trading is part of the investment you make in this game, as is that mining, hauling and ratting. If any activity is something a player finds boring then they should do something different not "have their cake and eat it" by automating the process.


Well I have to say that I agree with your statements. I do believe that it is something you need to do. But do you not agree then that the higher trading skills are useless? Why bother upping your open order count if there is no way anyone would want to maintain 300 open orders? And to do so will actually hinder your profit margins. Better to just open up another trader alt instead. Seems to me like the system is a little broken. If I was a Business Tycoon, I think that I would want to delegate some of the order watching to junior traders in my corp. But the system does not allow me to 'delegate' an order to another will it? If it could, then I think that I would be happy with that solution. As it stands I don't see any good reason to train up trade skills higher that 50 or so orders.


Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.04 10:22:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Darryl Ward
You have a point, and Eve's economy has grown to the point where sophisticated traders would want to use bots.

CCP should not ever allow people to run 3rd party mods with Eve.

But if it designed an interface where people could program market bots, that would work.

One problem with designated exchanges is that it would fix trade hubs. CCP didn't make Jita the biggest trade hub, the player economy did. It's possible that at some point in the future, Jita won't be the big trade hub, and possibly not a trade hub at all. I can't imagine how, but it's possible. If you fix exchanges for market bots, then you make these places permanent trade hubs.


Very good points. We would want these hubs to have their trading rules stated plainly so that everyone would know. Perhaps have public votes or whatever. As it stands it seems pretty close to impossible, short of some cataclysmic game mechanic or event that Jita will be dethroned as where people go to buy/sell most of the time. Its own popularity is what ensures its continued popularity. Jita is also special already in that it has its own node server. So yes, there will have to be some sort of vetted process by which 'electronic exchange' markets are allowed, and I agree with the sentiment that there should be an in-game client to do so, or a well published API for those who want to design their own algos. (perhaps ones that will trigger on technical signals etc).

Yes, its quite a radical change, but the markets are creaking under its own weight now and manual order editing is not really that feasible for 'tycoon' level traders. So either allowed for a controlled access to market algos/bots via api or client, or allow us to delegate open orders for other corp mates to watch for us.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.07.04 13:33:00 - [9]
 

No Bots

This is a game for humans not AFK humans running bots, which is exactly what would happen. A player that puts in the extra time, to watch his orders, to make the little adjustments and profit from playing the 0.01 ISK game should be allowed to profit from the extra effort. Allowing bots takes away the competitive advantage of being willing to do the extra work.

I myself am a lazy trader, I predict trends and let my orders sit and adjust them every few days as markets shift. I am at a competitive disadvantage to the person that puts in the extra effort. If I can hook up some bot, then we're on even footing and I gain at someone else's expense.

CCP we would hope also isn't going to start to say this kind of bot is ok and this kind isn't. It would end up a big huge mess of conflicting positions and rules with which I doubt anyone wants to deal.

I do understand the perspective of the proposal, but it would lead to unfair advantage for some and remove opportunities for many, not to mention it is a huge can of worms.

Evenus Battuta
Posted - 2011.07.04 15:02:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Evenus Battuta on 04/07/2011 15:07:02
Edited by: Evenus Battuta on 04/07/2011 15:05:52
Modifying orders cost something like 0.1% of the total price, that will solve everything.

price competition at 0.01 isk on a million level order is just ridiculus.

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.07.04 20:30:00 - [11]
 

The things that make bots so effective are also what makes them so easy to find... CCP isn't lacking tools or ability to find and eliminate bots. They either lack manpower or the will to do it in the first place.

Mouk Sarn
Posted - 2011.07.04 20:35:00 - [12]
 

Botters pay for accounts same as you do. CCP has no incentive to remove them from the game.

Also, botting is trivial even without fancy memory injection and whatnot. Just load up Auto IT, deploy EVE to a virtual machine, and have at it. It's so easy a caveman could do it. Parsing market data is the only thing that requires minimal thought but even that can be done by anyone who's reasonably intelligent.

Krystyn
Caldari
Serenity Rising LLC
Slammer's Republic
Posted - 2011.07.05 01:09:00 - [13]
 

I see what you are getting at, but you are missing out or some MUCH BETTER alternatives ways to go about this. Real life markets have lots of interesting ways to deal with changing prices. Stops and options and futures and even buy orders that can be programmed a bit more advanced than the current ones the exist in EVE. So in one sense I think we should add into eve some bot-like capability. Which would be available to everyone in the game and quickly put an end to botters on the market. When everyone can have their market orders update automatically and beat each other by .01 isk up to their per set stop point you will be a much more competitive market. The auto updating will run the sell price right down to the buy price very quickly and virtually eliminate the entire point of trader bots in the first place.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.05 07:00:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Krystyn
I see what you are getting at, but you are missing out or some MUCH BETTER alternatives ways to go about this. Real life markets have lots of interesting ways to deal with changing prices. Stops and options and futures and even buy orders that can be programmed a bit more advanced than the current ones the exist in EVE. So in one sense I think we should add into eve some bot-like capability. Which would be available to everyone in the game and quickly put an end to botters on the market. When everyone can have their market orders update automatically and beat each other by .01 isk up to their per set stop point you will be a much more competitive market. The auto updating will run the sell price right down to the buy price very quickly and virtually eliminate the entire point of trader bots in the first place.


Agreed. I would be happy with this.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.05 07:05:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Adunh Slavy
No Bots

This is a game for humans not AFK humans running bots, which is exactly what would happen. A player that puts in the extra time, to watch his orders, to make the little adjustments and profit from playing the 0.01 ISK game should be allowed to profit from the extra effort. Allowing bots takes away the competitive advantage of being willing to do the extra work.

I myself am a lazy trader, I predict trends and let my orders sit and adjust them every few days as markets shift. I am at a competitive disadvantage to the person that puts in the extra effort. If I can hook up some bot, then we're on even footing and I gain at someone else's expense.

CCP we would hope also isn't going to start to say this kind of bot is ok and this kind isn't. It would end up a big huge mess of conflicting positions and rules with which I doubt anyone wants to deal.

I do understand the perspective of the proposal, but it would lead to unfair advantage for some and remove opportunities for many, not to mention it is a huge can of worms.


I respect what you are saying, but the problem is that for non-lazy traders, managing 300 orders essentially makes us 'lazy traders' because no human can update that many orders fast enough. 1 update/hour!

So did CCP just make a mistake in adding those skills that seem to have no practical use in the game?
Or are they saying (by way of game mechanics) that they don't want any non-lazy traders with many orders out there?

I don't mind it as long as I can either:
1) delegate some orders with precise instructions to a bot.
2) delegate some orders with precise instructions to a human friend.
3) able to set precise instructions to update orders in the existing market interface so that I can update orders faster that once per hour!



pyth3
Posted - 2011.07.05 17:20:00 - [16]
 

You say that someone with 305 open orders is at a disadvantage because he can't update his orders fast enough to compete with some who has 5 orders open. That he needs to be able to update near instantly with a bot.

I say someone with 300+ orders open is at a tremendous advantage over someone with only 5 open. Sure the guy with 5 may sneak some buying/selling in while yo update your 300 orders. But you have 295 orders that he doesn't.You're making your isk on sheer volume at that level. And like a **** ton more of it then someone with 5 buy orders up.

All allowing boting would do imo is make it so already very well established traders have even more capability to drive out smaller competition, and corner regional markets 23/7.

That's the other thing about bots. They don't sleep. Someone with enough capital and a bot could very easily lock down some of the small regional markets 365/23/7. The only thing holding them back at present being the fact they can't be loged in all the time.

So no, no bots. It's just a bad idea.

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2011.07.05 17:32:00 - [17]
 

Honestly, CCP should just build more market tools that are opened by skill training that will take over the functions people are currently using market bots to do. Evens the playing field. What are the downsides to that? It definitely makes the game more realistic. People can buy automated order/ship/etc software in modern times, I can't imagine my serious business spaceship pilot wouldn't have access to such software.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.05 17:36:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: pyth3
You say that someone with 305 open orders is at a disadvantage because he can't update his orders fast enough to compete with some who has 5 orders open. That he needs to be able to update near instantly with a bot.

I say someone with 300+ orders open is at a tremendous advantage over someone with only 5 open. Sure the guy with 5 may sneak some buying/selling in while yo update your 300 orders. But you have 295 orders that he doesn't.You're making your isk on sheer volume at that level. And like a **** ton more of it then someone with 5 buy orders up.

All allowing boting would do imo is make it so already very well established traders have even more capability to drive out smaller competition, and corner regional markets 23/7.

That's the other thing about bots. They don't sleep. Someone with enough capital and a bot could very easily lock down some of the small regional markets 365/23/7. The only thing holding them back at present being the fact they can't be loged in all the time.

So no, no bots. It's just a bad idea.


Right, but what you are saying is that the more orders you have, the less able to stay on top of them you should be. But that's okay, you have more orders out, therefore you make more money.

All that is true, save the last part. more orders do not mean more money generally speaking. you have have 10 orders of 1 unit or 1 order of 10, would be the same.

I would be happy with a bot that only worked while I was online and not afk. (if you figure out a way to ensure this).
Or just let me delegate to a person.

To spice up the discussion, I belive that most overlook the negatives (to the user) of a market bot. Almost always people think that bots are one way boosts for their users, therefore is a 'cheat'. Yes, mining and missioning bots ARE. But, market bots have both good AND BAD sides for the trader using them. They are simplistic, and therefore can be gamed and manipulated by a human. You can push prices up or down, have them follow, then dump onto them. etc etc.

What I'm saying is that the users of trading bots will be burned sometimes as a downside, along with the upsides. It's not an "I win" button for traders.

pyth3
Posted - 2011.07.05 17:43:00 - [19]
 

While I agree that it's not an iwin button by any means, I also fear that it would become something of a requirement to compete on a large scale, even between higher volume traders. Since two people with 300 orders to update, one with a bot one without engaging in .01 games. Well obviously the bot will win that every time.

I do rather like the idea of being able to game a bot through driving the prices and then dumping on them though. Brings to mind ideas of buying low in one region, hauling in, slowly driving the price the bot is buying for up, then dumping hard on him.

After rexamining what you've said, I have to say I'm not 100% sure it would be a bad thing. The only real misgiving I still have is 365/23/7 bots. If they found a way around that (which I find doubtful) it might not be all that bad.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.07.05 19:09:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Kaelie Onren

I respect what you are saying, but the problem is that for non-lazy traders, managing 300 orders essentially makes us 'lazy traders' because no human can update that many orders fast enough. 1 update/hour!



LOL, I can't argue with that, for me though, that does not justify the introduction of bots.

Originally by: Kaelie Onren

So did CCP just make a mistake in adding those skills that seem to have no practical use in the game?
Or are they saying (by way of game mechanics) that they don't want any non-lazy traders with many orders out there?



CCP gives us tools, we decide how to use them. Suppose you did have a full rack of 305 orders, you don't have to update all 305. You could be lazy on 290 and only focus on the 15 moment to moment.

Some of mine take months to cycle, some I turn in 24 hours. Depends on my mood and if there is a spread that can be exploited at the moment.

Originally by: Kaelie Onren

I don't mind it as long as I can either:
1) delegate some orders with precise instructions to a bot.
2) delegate some orders with precise instructions to a human friend.
3) able to set precise instructions to update orders in the existing market interface so that I can update orders faster that once per hour!



1) I think we can be pretty sure CCP isn't going to allow market bots.
2) Sadly this doesn't work, and even if it did, I wouldn't trust most people not to screw up anyway.
3) Yes ...

A different type of order, call it a "move order" that automatically shifted along with the high buy or the low sell, as the case may be, would eliminate the need you describe. It would also have the effect of squashing spreads. That may or may not be a bad thing. As a lazy trend trader it would be good for me, but would end up as bad for the people that do not mind updating all their orders.

Maybe shift your strategy, just focus on the things with a decent spread and good volume. Chances are that opportunity will shift around anyway.

Ahaz Darkfall
Posted - 2011.07.05 19:22:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Adunh Slavy
No Bots

This is a game for humans not AFK humans running bots, which is exactly what would happen. A player that puts in the extra time, to watch his orders, to make the little adjustments and profit from playing the 0.01 ISK game should be allowed to profit from the extra effort. Allowing bots takes away the competitive advantage of being willing to do the extra work.

I myself am a lazy trader, I predict trends and let my orders sit and adjust them every few days as markets shift. I am at a competitive disadvantage to the person that puts in the extra effort. If I can hook up some bot, then we're on even footing and I gain at someone else's expense.

CCP we would hope also isn't going to start to say this kind of bot is ok and this kind isn't. It would end up a big huge mess of conflicting positions and rules with which I doubt anyone wants to deal.

I do understand the perspective of the proposal, but it would lead to unfair advantage for some and remove opportunities for many, not to mention it is a huge can of worms.


I agree with your opinion against botting, but you are missing one key point. Jita is already dominated by bots. It is currently against the EULA but marketing bots are almost impossible to catch. And if they do catch them they need solid proof before they ban the account or they will risk banning someone who does not use a bot but is just very intelligent and dedicated.

However, the botting is bad enough now. If they made in acceptable then it would be 100 times worse. I say leave it as it is, and keep trying to eliminate the bots. I do like the idea though of making the market more complex, with more skills allowing more detailed market orders and trending. Make the market more interesting and more challenging, the true traders will love it even more.

Florestan Bronstein
24th Imperial Crusade

Posted - 2011.07.06 06:39:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 06/07/2011 06:54:44

I support the legalization of market bots.

It would allow the trader to get rid off purely mechanical tasks and instead focus on actual strategies.

It would create a new and intellectually highly challenging minigame around algo trading.

It would probably improve the over-all efficiency of the market and help to bring down buy/ask spreads.

(before you contest the last point with RL examples consider that we are trading in commodities, that there is very few information to process on your average trading day in EVE and that we already have time limits on updating orders;

if some price changes rapidly the bot author would almost always be right in the assumption that it will return near the old equilibrium soon:
there is little information that could justify a rapid price change, the occurrence of events that could generate this information is extremely rare (patch notes, sisi changes, ...), a large part of the market is driven by consumption which should stabilize things considerably and we don't have institutional investors who are forced by policy to cut losses at arbitrary points.

I don't see any real danger of having a "Flash Crash" in EVE on anything but the most obscure items.)

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.06 06:53:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 06/07/2011 07:00:05
Originally by: Florestan Bronstein
Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 06/07/2011 06:44:51

I support the legalization of market bots.

It would allow the trader to get rid off purely mechanical tasks and instead focus on actual strategies.

It would create a new and intellectually highly challenging minigame around algo trading.

It would probably improve the over-all efficiency of the market and help to bring down buy/ask spreads.

(before you contest the last point with RL examples consider that we are trading in commodities, that there is very few information to process on your average trading day in EVE and that we already have time limits on updating orders)


Exactly my views as well. That last point I would go as far to say "definitively" bring down bid/ask spreads and make a more efficient market for buyers.

I play EVE just to trade, the fact that its one of the only virtual markets in existence is a unique thing. We should leverage this.

On a similar but slightly parallel vein, I would love to see a commodities futures exchange open up in EVE. With PI and manufacturing putting real economic risk on producers wrt spot prices, futures contracts would be popular.

I seem to have forgotten to support my own thread. Fixed.

Houdian Black
Posted - 2011.07.06 10:17:00 - [24]
 

This would give to much advantage to traders with many skills and isk to invest, effectively maing the rich much richer (for a whole lot less effort) and blocking out new players from the market.

Its a very bad idea but I can understand why it would be appealing for some. Rolling Eyes


Tom Hagen
Posted - 2011.07.06 10:30:00 - [25]
 

This seems like a really silly idea..

First of I have approx 250 orders out at occasion I have maxed out my orders. Even if I haven't had the opportunity to update all of them at 5 min intervals. I can say that most of them was set up with a profit margin for me.

With a bot I wouldent have to choose what order I want to really compete in and I would be just as effective across all of my goods. Hence I and a few others would cut the profit margin to a minimum and effectively closing the market for others to operate in. As it is now I cant control all of my orders and some can come in between and make a profit. Thats why we have the market PvP.

If I had a bot doing most of the dirty work for me I would probably accept margins so low as 1 - 0.5%. How many new traders with a few hundreds million ISK would think it would be reasonable to invests their earnings for such a low ROI?

Alot of the playerbase would be cut of from the market. Sure the mission runners might be able to buy their goods at optimal price levels, but is that really why we want to trade?

I have several accounts, I can assure you I would have market bots on everyone of them, being able to update 1000+ orders would be to good to be part of actual gameplay. All I had to do was log on and stay online while I am at work or sleeping, that would be the least of my problems.

We can discuss advantages given to player in different TZ as being able to log in after DT and start your bots would be a huge advantage.

Don't think for a second that I would be the only one operating like this. To bad for those of you who dont have the ISK reserves to be able to hold on to goods for several billions, but are dependent on selling stock as fast as you get it more or less :-)

Daedalus II
Helios Research
Posted - 2011.07.06 11:14:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Daedalus II on 06/07/2011 11:23:36
Originally by: Tom Hagen
Good stuff...

I'm with this guy.

If everyone were allowed to use market bots, then eventually everyone would use market bots. Result would be all buy and sell prices converging and new/small time traders would have no chance at all. It would be a buyers market.

What I could possibly accept is a hybrid solution with a built in function in the client where you get 1 automatic update per 24 or 48 hours to "keep you in the price range". If you want to compete more aggressively than that you'd have to update your orders manually.
(Also the automatic update should not renew the order timeout time, so after 3 months on automatic, without any manual intervention, it should be removed from the market)

Edit: Come to think of it, the automatic update should probably cost money to use. The longer you use it and the more costly the order, it gets exponentially more expensive. So running on automatic for a week perhaps would be reasonably worth it, but if you let it run for 3 months it would be extremely expensive.

Or, allow fully automatic updates, but with a much higher broker cost when it changes the price.

All of this of course means the mechanic must be added to the client.

TL;DR: Automatic updates of orders are allowed, but much more costly than manual updates.
The longer you have an automatic order, and the higher update frequency it has the more expensive it gets.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.07 04:35:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Houdian Black
This would give to much advantage to traders with many skills and isk to invest, effectively maing the rich much richer (for a whole lot less effort) and blocking out new players from the market.

Its a very bad idea but I can understand why it would be appealing for some. Rolling Eyes




That's why it would only be allowed at major hubs like Jita.
At these places, the little guy has no chance anyway.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.07 04:40:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Tom Hagen
This seems like a really silly idea..

First of I have approx 250 orders out at occasion I have maxed out my orders. Even if I haven't had the opportunity to update all of them at 5 min intervals. I can say that most of them was set up with a profit margin for me.

With a bot I wouldent have to choose what order I want to really compete in and I would be just as effective across all of my goods. Hence I and a few others would cut the profit margin to a minimum and effectively closing the market for others to operate in. As it is now I cant control all of my orders and some can come in between and make a profit. Thats why we have the market PvP.

If I had a bot doing most of the dirty work for me I would probably accept margins so low as 1 - 0.5%. How many new traders with a few hundreds million ISK would think it would be reasonable to invests their earnings for such a low ROI?

Alot of the playerbase would be cut of from the market. Sure the mission runners might be able to buy their goods at optimal price levels, but is that really why we want to trade?

I have several accounts, I can assure you I would have market bots on everyone of them, being able to update 1000+ orders would be to good to be part of actual gameplay. All I had to do was log on and stay online while I am at work or sleeping, that would be the least of my problems.

We can discuss advantages given to player in different TZ as being able to log in after DT and start your bots would be a huge advantage.

Don't think for a second that I would be the only one operating like this. To bad for those of you who dont have the ISK reserves to be able to hold on to goods for several billions, but are dependent on selling stock as fast as you get it more or less :-)


Your imagination seems a little stifled if you cannot imagine a bot which would allow you to select which orders to 'watch' and which ones not to.

Your point of timezones is moot because everyone can use these bots. There is NO exclusivity here. From the billionaire to the smallest trader. With this auto order watching, THEN the ones with more open order count can truely make / OR LOSE more isk. (as bots can be gamed, as I already mentioned)

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.07 04:45:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 07/07/2011 04:47:56
Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 07/07/2011 04:47:01
Originally by: Daedalus II
Edited by: Daedalus II on 06/07/2011 11:23:36
Originally by: Tom Hagen
Good stuff...

I'm with this guy.

If everyone were allowed to use market bots, then eventually everyone would use market bots. Result would be all buy and sell prices converging and new/small time traders would have no chance at all. It would be a buyers market.



But what you forget is that real life currency and commodity markets have both bots AND live traders, and traders beat bots all the time (well, I can't assume this will always hold, but the current state of the art algos cannot keep up with traders*). None of the apocalyptic fears that you mentioned occurs. I don't see any fundamental difference in the EVE market that would indicate it would be different. Especially since the bots which are being proposed here are SIMPLE order matching algos (to call them algos is a little of an insult even) which is nothing more than an instruction to 'beat the order as long as it is in this profit range'.

I real life, banks use much more complex trending algos etc etc, and still traders have the bots for lunch.
And besides, I proposed that these bots will only be available at hubs like Jita. Places where the small time trader is already swamped with illegal 3rd party 0.01 isk bots. Best to make a sanctioned one to even the playing field.

*in so far as bots can be gamed easily by live people.

Tom Hagen
Posted - 2011.07.07 07:50:00 - [30]
 

A few things...

First of before you going after my imagination. I havent seen anywhere that you said you wanted Bots with order limitations. In a market run by boots that constantly 0.01 Isking each other why would you want to limit your bots to just a few orders as long as they are in your price range you would still want to be the lowest seller or the highest bidder.

How can my TZ point be moot?
Not everyone will be at home or awake after DT to start up your bot, so those people who are, will have maybe hours of botting making ISK compared to others, and this is regardless if they are actively trading or not. They just have to turn on the computer..

I belive that those traders that just have gone to work when DT start will disagree with you, they are effectivly missing 10 hours of trading compared to the guy who live in a TZ just an hour away.

Your comparison to RL market is a bit far fetch I think. That traders beat boots isn't an argument for implementing them in EVE. First of EVE is a closed system. We have very little effect on goods from famine, natural disasters, civil unrest. We cant invest long termed in R/D and hope for future patents. There is no creative destruction, only destruction! There is very little secondary market effects such as the bank crisis in EVE. The market isn't very innovative in EVE. it is much more about buying high and selling low. Thats what boot are doing very well. Analysing the market going after personal interaction or processing real life event that happens in the world is something a trader are better suited for.

You can probably win a prize or two if you could come up with a bot that understands the effect of home bias, and can correctly come to conclusions how to act on it's orders on the market.

No matter what happen in EVE the real effect on goods aren't that affected, you can manipulate to get an affect but NC losing soverginity in space don't affect the price of cargo expander much.
When demand and supply evens out (something that will go much faster with bots adjusting prices 23/7) there are people that are ready to have the smallest ROI who will be left on the market. Other people will move up in the food chain (tech II) and the same thing will happen there. It is just a matter of time before everything gets bought and sold at a smallest % profit.

You also trying to devalue the bots impact by claiming they can be manipulated. Yes they can but as the number of boots increase and so the amount of goods they are trading in total, it will most likely become harder (very limited experience with boots I can admit).
If they are so easily manipulated, why are people using them? do you think they help them earn ISK? And why in gods name would you want something that is so easily beaten by a trader in Jita where you will constantly be competing to RL traders, who will flock to Jita in order to so easily beat your bot and take your ISK?


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