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Brainless Bimbo
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.03 11:47:00 - [931]
 

If my Implants and Hardwirings equipped gets destroyed with the clone so should the Monocle and Clothing im wearing.

Fix that and will be happy, eve is harsh, but non destructable item, that makes even a carebear notice it breaks eves ethos.


Real money transactions turns eve into vanity carebears on line, risk free since Incarna.


Kerrisone
Posted - 2011.07.03 11:47:00 - [932]
 

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
Originally by: Asyrdin Harate
There are no plans, and have been no plans, as per previous communication and CSM meetings, to introduce the sale of game breaking items or enhancements in the NeX store.

We all know plans can change...i mean how often have we changed our skill plan. CCP you still haven't said you won't do it just that you have no plans for it right now, but how about tommorow?


CCP also said "there are no plans to change plans", which addresses your comment but we didn't put it in the statements because at some point it just becomes ridiculous.
If you are not willing to believe them, you won't believe them no matter what they say.

I'm not willing to believe them but I'd have been more inclined to extend them some credit if they had written/spoken about their vision for EVE and how pay for advantage was not what they wanted, how they were against it and would not take the game in that direction. They could have even said "If however EVE starts to decline or lose revenue then we will look to what can continue to save it but short of something terrible like that no pay for advantages/services or 'pay to win' features will be implemented".

Part of this whole problem is their terrible communication, ignoring the CSM, what I'd call arrogance so they should be more honest and forthcoming with us from now on, ESPECIALLY NOW. They had PLENTY of time to craft such a thought to convey what they care and think about their product, instead we got them tip toeing about the NEX, that was a real disappointment for the 'better communication' we were supposed to be getting.


Also thank you for engaging with so many people in this thread.

Aineko Macx
Posted - 2011.07.03 11:53:00 - [933]
 

An adequate compromise I guess, not more, not less.

However, the fact that CCPs main investor has known russian mafia ties (which apparently wasn't spoken of in the summit), is enough for me to not give CCP one more cent.

Juggalo Stazz
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.03 11:59:00 - [934]
 

Ok, for the time being it is over. Stop trolling the forums, get back into the game and do what you like to whether it be mission running, incursions, mining or melting faces in null sec. Just play the ****ing game. Life will go on. Drama over for now. Enjoy yourselves in game.

Halgirsand Verneraal
Posted - 2011.07.03 12:09:00 - [935]
 

Originally by: Ordon Gundar
Is no-one else concerned by the wording of "..game breaking items, like ships with different stats to those in game.."??

That is not the issue! The issue is that ANY ship, or ANYTHING currently available on the in-game market should NOT be available for purchase on NEX. Not just super ships!

I still think there is a lot of wiggle room on these statements.


Agreed. For those who have difficulty visualizing graphs:


Buying a ship in NEX means the money goes to CCP and a ship is in game without being produced.
Buying a ship in PLEX means the money goes to CCP and a ship is in game.

The difference is production breaks.




Anuiruson Bennington
Posted - 2011.07.03 12:14:00 - [936]
 

I think that a way should be found into Jove space where the capsuleer can enjoy the T4 and higher ships along with the luxuries that are obviously being held back by the Jovians from the capsuleer's of New Eden.

The day is coming.


Atij Artua
Posted - 2011.07.03 12:25:00 - [937]
 

Originally by: Alejan GerakhOh, I'm sorry. Someone trying to be sincere, and there even being a video to display the body language of sincerity, is obviously "UNACCEPTABLE!"

[quote




Did we see the same video as you?

It could be accused of being a lot of things but sincere isn't one of them.

The video was scripted - admittedly very badly.

The 'discussion' the 2 reps had was embarrassing to watch....
CCP: "oh you did so well at the talks"
CSM: "So did you, you were great"
CCP: "and you really stood up to us"
CSM: "but you really listened it was wonderful"
Viewer: "get a room guys!"

Body language: all through the vid the CCP guy looked terrified - not of the camera but as if he was afraid the CSM rep would say the wrong thing, he only relaxed when it was almost over. And the CSM rep was preening so much I thought his ego was going to apply for statehood, if it's accepted, it would be the fifth-largest (to paraphrase Willard Scott).

Talk about a party political broadcast - no substance, no information and plenty creepy.

Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
Posted - 2011.07.03 12:28:00 - [938]
 

They're removing PLEX from the game!! And the character bazaar as well!!

The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. The CSM, under NDA, has been presented with CCPs plans for continued evolution of the business model and agrees that nothing they saw breaks this principle.

Laughing

Dodgy Past
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Posted - 2011.07.03 12:31:00 - [939]
 

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
Originally by: Asyrdin Harate
There are no plans, and have been no plans, as per previous communication and CSM meetings, to introduce the sale of game breaking items or enhancements in the NeX store.

We all know plans can change...i mean how often have we changed our skill plan. CCP you still haven't said you won't do it just that you have no plans for it right now, but how about tommorow?


CCP also said "there are no plans to change plans", which addresses your comment but we didn't put it in the statements because at some point it just becomes ridiculous.
If you are not willing to believe them, you won't believe them no matter what they say.
So does the whole CSM believe that Fearless was worthless toilet reading?

Has Seleene suddenly about faced his opinion?

You have no doubts in your mind despite the tone of Hilmar's email that followed the player's reaction to Fearless?

Also saying there have never been plans is such an appalling lie given the fact that it was announced to Eurogamer that they were going to implement PLEX for remaps last year.

To me something just doesn't smell right here.

Strure
Vikings In Space
Posted - 2011.07.03 12:39:00 - [940]
 

Edited by: Strure on 03/07/2011 12:43:47
Originally by: Halgirsand Verneraal
Originally by: Ordon Gundar

Buying a ship in NEX means the money goes to CCP and a ship is in game without being produced.
Buying a ship in PLEX means the money goes to CCP and a ship is in game.

The difference is production breaks.



Also remember there is a market for PLEX and those buying and selling are subsidizing others who generate the ISK. Those buying the PLEX with cash are encouraging the industry of those generating the ISK. So two people are trading different advantages, but the net is still zero (which you point out).

Also, because there are only small scale laws (through alliances, and treaty), the lack of default penalty makes raising seed capital rather difficult in Eve. The ability to use the PLEX system to raise capital, also stimulates industry, as does buying a ship you really can't afford and getting it smashed.

Anyway, I'm satisfied that CCP heard the player message loud and clear and watched 5% of accounts unsubbed over just the threat of future purchasable advantage.

Their ideas about player engagement were a bit whacked. The vanity item that means the most to me, is the fanfest tshirt. Not because I paid $ for it (and not directly), but because I did travel and participate in meetings to help develop the game. I might pay $30k for a yacht, because that's what it costs to have good boat to sail and cruise because of physical parts that are expensive. Simple virtual items that cost $70 are an obvious poor value, and a total rip-off. I'd never pay money to encourage more non-virtual screwing. Let them eat dust.

And speaking of Dust, the CSM should be involved in how it affects Eve. The idea of a connected spin-off is great, but it seems odd that CCP doesn't really want to attract the Eve players to it....No mention of PC port. It seems Dust could be an effective hook for new Eve players, but you need them in that universe to make a real social bridge, and w/o that it seems you have the typical 2 year max console game cycle.

Lord Zekk
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District
Posted - 2011.07.03 12:51:00 - [941]
 

@ CCP Navigator.

So far so good, but this is just the first step in the right direction. There is still a long way to go, but a good start. Communication is the key and I'm sure the CSP harped on that.

A lot of the mess can be avoided you communicate with the community, you have the tools. I know the communinity can be immature raging ******s but we love the game and only want to see it do better.

So far what have seen is that it takes EXTREME rage, riots and a lot of account cancellations for us to get your attention. Please show us that rationally talking to you and pointing things out works better.


Dodgy Past
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Posted - 2011.07.03 13:01:00 - [942]
 

Originally by: Lord Zekk
So far what have seen is that it takes EXTREME rage, riots and a lot of account cancellations for us to get your attention. Please show us that rationally talking to you and pointing things out works better.
It never has and it never will.

It's always the same cycle, ignore the players until they kick up a huge storm, then finally acknowledge them while whining at how immature they are to kick up a big storm.

Cebraio
Posted - 2011.07.03 13:13:00 - [943]
 

Confirming that this has not become a threadnought.

Well done CCP. Finally some people can calm down a bit.

Zeta Kalin
Large Rodent Hunters
Posted - 2011.07.03 13:18:00 - [944]
 


Iskandara Cho
Posted - 2011.07.03 13:20:00 - [945]
 

Originally by: Cebraio
Confirming that this has not become a threadnought.

Well done CCP. Finally some people can calm down a bit.


What you call 'calm' I call 'resigned' as in

I am resigned to the fact that CCP has none of my interests at heart and so will no longer waste my energy, or my money, hoping that they will change.

Sorry, but all they have given us is weasel words.

deepspace 1 Preldent
Posted - 2011.07.03 13:40:00 - [946]
 

More lies to cover the original lies.If we cant make it mine it or invent it why is it here?If u really want it seed the blueprints.As for unfair advantage what do we call the ships given as tournament prizes?It simple to fix if u wanted to fix it
Make CQ optional.
Make BPO's for boots monacles etc.
Fix the ongoing game bugs
then change dynamics to fit with the other games u want us to get involved with.
Feller's we may fly and fight in Space but it aint rocket science what we here for and it aint the pretty boots.

Kelnarn Shaelingrath
Caldari
River-Rats in space
The Ditanian Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.03 13:41:00 - [947]
 

Originally by: Sorgenbinder
Originally by: Grey Griff
Originally by: Sorgenbinder
"The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time."

One word...

PLEX


ehm no, it does't give you special ability or magical ship with uber stats, it just redistributes ingame resources which in the first place can't be aquired with plex, so there is no advantage over investment of time


So spending real-world cash and converting it into in-game money wouldn't give me an advantage...?


Yes, Plex = P2W, but, only in a very minute way... on top of which PLEX (until AUR came along) fed into the in-game economy so everyone won from it's use, not just a single player...

for example, you can buy 3 GTCs, convert them into 6 plex, sell them on the market and get enough isk to buy enough stuff to put together a really nice Rattlesnake(or another ship), but the caveat to it is that unless you've invested the "time" to train the skills to fly the ship, put the rigs on it and use everything, then all you have is a pile of really nice stuff sitting in your item box, or if you have a friend who can put the ship together for you, then you have a really nice ship sitting in the hangar that you can't get in and fly yet.

So the point is valid, there is no real/tangible advantage over the investment of time in the game aside from having pretty stuff that you can't use until that time's been invested.

if MTs change that with SP or some other type gameplay changing items, then RM would/could give someone a decided advantage, but that's a different discussion than just the effect that PLEX has now.

o/
K.S.


Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.07.03 13:43:00 - [948]
 

Originally by: Dodgy Past
Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
Originally by: Asyrdin Harate
There are no plans, and have been no plans, as per previous communication and CSM meetings, to introduce the sale of game breaking items or enhancements in the NeX store.

We all know plans can change...i mean how often have we changed our skill plan. CCP you still haven't said you won't do it just that you have no plans for it right now, but how about tommorow?


CCP also said "there are no plans to change plans", which addresses your comment but we didn't put it in the statements because at some point it just becomes ridiculous.
If you are not willing to believe them, you won't believe them no matter what they say.
So does the whole CSM believe that Fearless was worthless toilet reading?

Has Seleene suddenly about faced his opinion?

You have no doubts in your mind despite the tone of Hilmar's email that followed the player's reaction to Fearless?

Also saying there have never been plans is such an appalling lie given the fact that it was announced to Eurogamer that they were going to implement PLEX for remaps last year.

To me something just doesn't smell right here.


While I don't believe it was "worthless toilet reading", I also don't believe it reflected the policy of the company either.
Even if that was the case, no matter what, we can spend 2 days calling them liars it won't accomplish nothing.

Now, we got assured there is no plan, we had been shown no plans in the past, we have sent a strong signal that any plans would be "poorly received". We have 2 choices: call them liars and be dissatisfied no matter what they say or accept what they say and see if they stick to their word. We have seen of no implementations of such things until now, I haven't seen anything in that direction either at the moment, so we'll go on...

I have "reserves", not doubts. Let me just say that I believe them when they say what they say, and I'll keep a close eye to make sure they don't change.

PLEX for remaps and other non "in-game things" are frankly grey areas. They're not gold ammo or ships or pay to win. I think it is healthy to have the ability to discuss those, because some of them can frankly be good ideas. Now, I doubt you'll find anyone in the CSM who is tougher on the divide between what is acceptable and what isn't (seriously).

Dan Estrellas Amigo
Posted - 2011.07.03 13:46:00 - [949]
 

Quote:
It is CCPs plan that the Noble Exchange (NeX store) will be used for the sale of vanity items only. There are no plans, and have been no plans, as per previous communication and CSM meetings, to introduce the sale of game breaking items or enhancements in the NeX store.


Could one of the CSM members please clarify why all of CCP's statements about MTs only say "in the NeX store."

Could they also comment on why CCP wrote "game-breaking" instead of "game-affecting". I want to ignore the obvious subjective at this moment so I can point out that it is also superfluous. Like creating a function in a computer program called "ProcessData()," CCP's wording tells us nothing. I'm suggesting that it was deliberate.

I don't mean to be trying to sound big with big words; I genuinely want to someone to realise that it was superfluous. It is taken for granted that if CCP say to themselves "This will break the game" then they won't release it.



So I would like those 2 things answered. Otherwise we are left wondering 1, "What about MTs outside the NeX store?" and 2, "What about any MTs that are game-affecting but not CCP's idea of game-breaking?"

Why is the CCP statement vague? Why is the CSM statement so clear?
I assume the CSM statement is based on other communications from CCP, because CCP's statement isn't clear enough to support CSM's.

Inspiration
Posted - 2011.07.03 13:56:00 - [950]
 

Originally by: Dan Estrellas Amigo
Why is the CCP statement vague? Why is the CSM statement so clear?
I assume the CSM statement is based on other communications from CCP, because CCP's statement isn't clear enough to support CSM's.



Asking the question is answering it!

Sorgenbinder
Posted - 2011.07.03 14:00:00 - [951]
 

Originally by: Kelnarn Shaelingrath
Originally by: Sorgenbinder
Originally by: Grey Griff
Originally by: Sorgenbinder
"The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time."

One word...

PLEX


ehm no, it does't give you special ability or magical ship with uber stats, it just redistributes ingame resources which in the first place can't be aquired with plex, so there is no advantage over investment of time


So spending real-world cash and converting it into in-game money wouldn't give me an advantage...?


Yes, Plex = P2W, but, only in a very minute way... on top of which PLEX (until AUR came along) fed into the in-game economy so everyone won from it's use, not just a single player...

for example, you can buy 3 GTCs, convert them into 6 plex, sell them on the market and get enough isk to buy enough stuff to put together a really nice Rattlesnake(or another ship), but the caveat to it is that unless you've invested the "time" to train the skills to fly the ship, put the rigs on it and use everything, then all you have is a pile of really nice stuff sitting in your item box, or if you have a friend who can put the ship together for you, then you have a really nice ship sitting in the hangar that you can't get in and fly yet.

So the point is valid, there is no real/tangible advantage over the investment of time in the game aside from having pretty stuff that you can't use until that time's been invested.

if MTs change that with SP or some other type gameplay changing items, then RM would/could give someone a decided advantage, but that's a different discussion than just the effect that PLEX has now.

o/
K.S.




Perhaps I'm blind. Perhaps I'm stupid. Perhaps I'm (insert your own preference here) but...

How in the hell can having lots of "stuff" not be an advantage over NOT having lots of "stuff". Yes, you need to invest time into training to use the "stuff", but you should also (in my opinion) have to invest time into earning the money to buy the "stuff". Not having to invest that time means having an advantage.

A game is defined by its rules. To play outside of those rules is to not play the game. And whilst PLEX are legal within the rules, as I said in a previous post, they are not in the SPIRIT of the game: they are a device to prevent or ameliorate a real-world intrusion on the game (i.e. ISK sellers). No, we don't live in a perfect world and yes, ISK sellers are always going to be there. It just saddens me that CCP has decided that the best way to beat them is to join them.

PLEX are and always will be a way of buying advantage, or advancement, using real-world money.

Chrysanthemum Korik
Monocles Of Death
Posted - 2011.07.03 14:02:00 - [952]
 

I'm surprised how many people are thanking CCP and saying this is resolved without CCP committing to not turn EvE into a cash-shop driven game.

Menenda Tararena
Posted - 2011.07.03 14:08:00 - [953]
 

You useless piece of CSM monkeys went to Iceland without discussing the underlying core to the frustration we have seen recently dident you?

It never occurred to either you or CCP that the real reason people got so aggravated now, is that we havent seen any real improvements to eve for several years?

All we got is fixes to stuff that if they spent the money the eve subscriber pays should have been fixed ages ago. And then as a final push over the edge we got this piece of mindnumbing useless captains quarter.

And now you utterly useless not worth a dime CSM sits and sweettalks with CCP pretending to represent the community. Bah, i wont even spit on you, thats how low i think of you.

Politicans, and their wannabees, theres a special place in hell for you.

J'Anik Cora
Posted - 2011.07.03 14:22:00 - [954]
 

Hmm well, those statements, belaboured though they may have been, mitigate my worries/fears quite nicely, for now. Now it's up to CCP to keep to their word, and up to the CSM to see to it that they do.

A special thank you goes out to the CSM for flying out there on such short notice and discuss the "srs bizniz" of internet spaceshippery.

Alejan Gerakh
Minmatar
Clan Hyena
Posted - 2011.07.03 14:27:00 - [955]
 

Originally by: RougeOperator
Another BS CSM meeting with little to show other then the CSM member's got treated like kings for not doing the will of the players or taking a hardline stance against what CCP was doing.

Thanks for the failure guys.

But they did if you bothered to pay attention, such as on Twitter or their blogs. Oh, wait, forum 'warriors' don't give a $#!t about Twitter or blogs. If it's not on the forums, it doesn't count.

Ilmunel
Posted - 2011.07.03 14:27:00 - [956]
 

Edited by: Ilmunel on 03/07/2011 14:27:33
Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel


PLEX for remaps and other non "in-game things" are frankly grey areas. They're not gold ammo or ships or pay to win. I think it is healthy to have the ability to discuss those, because some of them can frankly be good ideas. Now, I doubt you'll find anyone in the CSM who is tougher on the divide between what is acceptable and what isn't (seriously).


PLEX for remaps isn't gray area it gives advantage, and any sp selling for money gives advantage and as well it breaks mini profession for those who rising chars for selling

Heavenly Blues
Posted - 2011.07.03 14:35:00 - [957]
 

Meanwhile on Perpetuum Online:

Yesterday one of the Dev's for PO DJ'd a 3 hour set for us to listen too while we rocked robots. He was in general chat with everyone online playing during this interacting with us like human beings. If you are looking for a game where the executives still understand humility, come try a trial.

http://www.perpetuum-online.com

It's cheaper than eve too, and no $68 Mega-Transactions!

$68 is more than I spend on food in a week. Damn anyone that charges that much for imaginary items during an economic depression. Let them eat cake!

Alejan Gerakh
Minmatar
Clan Hyena
Posted - 2011.07.03 14:43:00 - [958]
 

Edited by: Alejan Gerakh on 03/07/2011 15:39:13
Originally by: Inspiration
Edited by: Inspiration on 03/07/2011 09:11:24
Originally by: Alejan Gerakh
Originally by: The Offerer
But what advantage? Smile
It's a win-win-win scenario.Very Happy It's so cool that it's bigger than bi-winning... it's tri-winning.Cool



Except that he is wrong, he describes how PLEX works now. While AUR is derived from PLEX, the real life currency competes feeding it with the already existing use of PLEX. Buying game time, meaning higher PLEX prices and likely less active accounts!

So that win/win/win, turns into a win/tie/loose situation. Where the win is the buyer, the tie is CCP and the looser is everyone not involved in the transaction. All based on how rich you are in RL, so it is detrimental for the game as a whole.

Yes, but his post wasn't about AURUM, it was about PLEX. However, yours is, and I agree with it completely, if it comes to pass.

HyperZerg
Posted - 2011.07.03 14:44:00 - [959]
 

I have 3 questions regarding this whole debate.

1. Why MT in the first place ? Greed?

2. Why THAT many open backdoors in the statement? Buying a Titan per NEX is non-game-breaking but a non-vanity item. Also, gold ammo in a NEXX shop is still possible.

3. The internal newsletter contained plans for faction-standing sales per NEX. How can you say there were NEVER plans for it ?

Kelnarn Shaelingrath
Caldari
River-Rats in space
The Ditanian Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.03 14:51:00 - [960]
 

Edited by: Kelnarn Shaelingrath on 03/07/2011 14:55:39
Originally by: Sorgenbinder
Originally by: Kelnarn Shaelingrath


Yes, Plex = P2W, but, only in a very minute way... on top of which PLEX (until AUR came along) fed into the in-game economy so everyone won from it's use, not just a single player...

for example, you can buy 3 GTCs, convert them into 6 plex, sell them on the market and get enough isk to buy enough stuff to put together a really nice Rattlesnake(or another ship), but the caveat to it is that unless you've invested the "time" to train the skills to fly the ship, put the rigs on it and use everything, then all you have is a pile of really nice stuff sitting in your item box, or if you have a friend who can put the ship together for you, then you have a really nice ship sitting in the hangar that you can't get in and fly yet.

So the point is valid, there is no real/tangible advantage over the investment of time in the game aside from having pretty stuff that you can't use until that time's been invested.

if MTs change that with SP or some other type gameplay changing items, then RM would/could give someone a decided advantage, but that's a different discussion than just the effect that PLEX has now.

o/
K.S.




Perhaps I'm blind. Perhaps I'm stupid. Perhaps I'm (insert your own preference here) but...

How in the hell can having lots of "stuff" not be an advantage over NOT having lots of "stuff". Yes, you need to invest time into training to use the "stuff", but you should also (in my opinion) have to invest time into earning the money to buy the "stuff". Not having to invest that time means having an advantage.

A game is defined by its rules. To play outside of those rules is to not play the game. And whilst PLEX are legal within the rules, as I said in a previous post, they are not in the SPIRIT of the game: they are a device to prevent or ameliorate a real-world intrusion on the game (i.e. ISK sellers). No, we don't live in a perfect world and yes, ISK sellers are always going to be there. It just saddens me that CCP has decided that the best way to beat them is to join them.

PLEX are and always will be a way of buying advantage, or advancement, using real-world money.


No, you're not either as far as I can tell...

It does give someone the advantage of being able to have stuff quicker, but honestly that's where it stops, if the player can't "use" the stuff then the stuff isn't doing them any good unless they want to resell it for a profit and come out ahead because of the original PLEX purchase and conversion, but that is also one of a multitude of scenarios where the player can invest RM into the process and win-ish, but not win in the sense of P2W as in "get the stuff, buy the SP, hop in the ship and go pWn without the time investment".

That's why I'm more than happy to concede that it does give someone an advantage, just not a very big one.

Now if you want to talk about P2W in the sense of being able to buy as much SP as your wallet will allow and circumventing the entire "training" skills and learning aspect of the game?, or being able to do an MT for a ship that has more slots than it's player built in-game counterpart?, special ammo, special standings, special abilities that aren't available anywhere else ect ect?, sure, that's P2W in the sense of the arguments being presented in this entire issue.

I even agree with your statements, I just don't place the same importance on *some of them* that you do, nor do I look at the current GTC>PLEX>ISK process as being "that" important or effective enough to really be considered P2W in relation to those MT type P2W scenarios(above) because of the effect(s) they could/would have on the balance of the game.

o/
K.S.

*edit added text for clarity*


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