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Rose Makanen
Posted - 2011.07.03 00:16:00 - [751]
 

Thanks CCP & CSM. \o/

Kandreath
Posted - 2011.07.03 00:18:00 - [752]
 

Edited by: Kandreath on 03/07/2011 00:20:05
OK Finally, some cool heads and outcomes we can start to build on.

CCP deserves a thanks for getting the CSM out for the meeting. I assume they paid for all of them to be there. - I assume this was a significant cost. Well done and thank you.

CSM deserves thanks for being available to fly at short notice and participate in the meeting. Thanks guys - and if you have families; thanks to them too.

For both sides, you just demonstrated it was worth the couple of hours it took me to explore and vote for the CSM members.

I don't 100% believe that "gold ammo" or "pay for standings" was ~never~ on the cards. There was at least enough thought to consider and debate it internally. However I do now trust that it is unlikely they will make it into the NEX. With the CSM consulted on "grey area" items, there is a check on these items and that's good enough for me.

Well done on managing a bad situation to an acceptable conclusion.

Vanilla Ninja
Posted - 2011.07.03 00:21:00 - [753]
 

Edited by: Vanilla Ninja on 03/07/2011 00:24:56
I am happy that something has finally happened but yet very dissapointed that Himlars email was shoved under the rug COMPLETELY by CCP. And why did CCP not state this one line: "Non Vanity MT Items will NEVER exist"?
So for now:

"I can tell you that this is one of the moments where we look at what [CCP] do and less of what they say"

PS: increasing the min specs is not solving the problem of performance issues you scrubs.

PPS: Thanks for new turrets and new Maller model, if you'd just released that i would have been a happy raging pirate, now however I'm not. :(

Horanda
Element 115.
Posted - 2011.07.03 00:22:00 - [754]
 

Finally finished reading 25 pages of comments (and Trebor's blog), though it was only 17 pages when I started.
A word about trust: trust is a 2-way street. I have noticed in RL that those who can be trusted are those who, at least initially, trust. So many players prove themselves untrustworthy in-game, that I can understand why they find it hard to trust CCP and the CSM in these issues.

I have played EVE for over 3 years. It has lasted longer than any other game I have played, on or offline. This is despite the fact that it has destroyed or outgrown 4 video cards and one desktop box.

I will probably NOT play EVE forever. Eventually the company or the other players will wear out my minimal patience and I will move on.

I read the dev-blogs and their related threads, but rarely comment because it takes time away from playing the game, but on this occasion a few things need to be said.

Thank you to those players who have maintained a level of calm intelligence through this ****storm.
To those players who have been, and continue to be, ranting and raving over paper tigers, go away.
Trebor and Meissa, thank you for your input into this thread, you are included in the calm intelligence comment above.

To those who are concerned that Incarna is not what you expected: 'Life's tough, get used to it.' Being an old guy, with limited income, I don't like spending money unless I can get something that does exactly what I want it to do. This doesn't happen, in computer games or RL gadgets or tools. I have to get what I can afford and apply my brain to work-arounds. If it doesn't live up to my plans, it's not the company's fault, it's mine for expecting more that the company was willing to offer at the time.

CCP is a company, in business. The devs have to do what the bean-counters tell them to do. The fact that the devs are willing to listen to us and work on implementing what we want and suggest does not change that business relationship. The devs have to convince the bean-counters that what we want will increase the profit-margin or it won't happen. I, at least, am confident that they are working on it. There are a lot of things I would like to see in the game that I know will never happen because the profit isn't there.

Now I have to catch up on the page or four of comments that have been posted while I was writing this. Rolling Eyes

Tuggboat
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.03 00:22:00 - [755]
 

It looks like CSM bowed to reality that they had the power to damage EVE more than help it and chose not to hurt it. I think that was responsible of them.

I think the game is broke, the quest for balance is too balancing. Its taken the fun out of the game. Plex, RMT and MT are needed to swing to the fun side of the envelope. The system is too tight without it. I'm sure my views are minority though but I don't play Eve cause I'm like everybody else anyhow.

What I have surprisingly found out in this debacle is that I like more people in EVE than I thought ShockedShockedShocked I'll trade CCP you for you guys I guess.

F'elch
Wall Street Trading
Posted - 2011.07.03 00:22:00 - [756]
 

Edited by: F''elch on 03/07/2011 00:22:48
*Da Mitani rolls sleeves up*

Time to gets serious.

Edit:Spelling ******

Troy LS
Posted - 2011.07.03 00:23:00 - [757]
 

Edited by: Troy LS on 03/07/2011 00:31:45
Originally by: CCP Zulu
Statement on behalf of CCP from Arnar Hrafn Gylfason, Senior Producer for EVE Online.....CCP acknowledges that the reaction following the leaked internal communication could have been handled better. Good communication and trust between CCP and the EVE community has always been a fundamental priority for CCP and will continue to be so......Statement on behalf of the Council of Stellar Management from The Mittani, Chairman of CSM 6...The Leaked Hilmar Global Email: We were appalled by the leaked Hilmar email and the atrocious and out-of-touch messaging it contained. We sympathize and agree with those players offended and disgusted by it.



Not good enough. There is no "Sorry" anywhere in there. Stand-by for link...

Actions and not words


The Offerer
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.03 00:25:00 - [758]
 

Edited by: The Offerer on 03/07/2011 00:27:01
Originally by: Stephanie Rose
Originally by: The Offerer
Originally by: John Zorg
Edited by: John Zorg on 02/07/2011 22:06:28
I am sure that there will be no response to this. But couldn't the GTC(PLEX) system be seen as a "Gold Ammo" system. If I have $1 000,000 and I play EVE Online I am able to purchase all the ISK I want with real money. No time is invested into that.

You say so nicely in your blog and on the youtube video that CCP will _NEVER_ have a pay to win feature in EVE-Online but the GTC(PLEX) system is exactly that...

A comment from CCP would be appreciated...

JZ


Yes, you are in position to buy whatever you want by selling PLEX-es, but:
- you are giving game time to a player that need it to play;
- you are getting ISK that was created by that player through gameplay. By needing his ISK you've created content for that player - a need to get a bit more ISK to buy a PLEX.
- you will use that ISK to trade it for some items that other players produced. You've created content for them by having a need for those items and you've boosted the economy in the process (because as wee all know - more selling, healthier economy).

This system is nothing like "golden ammo". This system is good for the game.
----



If your rich an have lots of money, your BUYING an advantage, if your not rich, an don't have money, your not buy anything, but pounding sand. Whether you want to spin it as P2W, or not, it still gives an advantage to people who can afford it. Like someone said on a blog, no one seems to be able to clearly define P2W. Now, this may not be CCP selling you the stuff, it is coming from other players, but it still takes REAL money to make all this work, one way or another.




But what advantage? Smile
Do you have an advantage because you have the items
OR
does the manufacturer have the advantage because he gets your ISK
OR
does a PLEX buyer have an advantage because he can afford (ISK wise) to play the game for free?

It's a win-win-win scenario.Very Happy It's so cool that it's bigger than bi-winning... it's tri-winning.Cool

P2W is the system where you get the items from the MT store for cash and no one else gets anything.Wink

Di Mulle
Posted - 2011.07.03 00:38:00 - [759]
 

Edited by: Di Mulle on 03/07/2011 00:45:52
Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
Originally by: Mag's
Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
The time to complaining "I don't want InCarna" has come and passed, what now matters is the impact for us who care less about the integration between the two.
I still think you're trolling.

I and many others actually really look forward to walking in stations. We simply want to choose when we disembark. Could it be more clear?


I understand the sentiment and argument, it's one I and several others of the CSM have consistently made since May 2010 (first CSM 5 meeting where we were introduced to InCarna). InCarna should stand on its own merit and not be forced down the throat of unwilling participants. I agree.

However I also think CCP wants integration between the 2 gameplays to be of tantamount importance. I disagree with that choice but respect the decisions. My condition for them to get their way in this regard is that I have similar performance footprint I had before.

Resisting for the sake of resisting will get us nowhere. The underlying reasons we are resisting are what matters. In this instance they are: performance, and potential loss of functionality.


I can't help myself, but to think CCP - and you - by talking like this are nullifying lots of commitments you just freshly made. Specifically, chestbeating about improving communications.

Maybe your wording is not precise enough, I don't want to sound too offensive, because I have lots of respect for you and CSM in general.

But. "CCP wants integration between the 2 gameplays to be of tantamount importance". Just because.

Note, there is principal difference between this decision, and, say, anomaly nerf. The latter may be excellent, may be horrible, may be somewhere in between - but the intent was clear and explained.

Or it has a reason, after all ? Why this reason was never properly explained, not even speaking about trying to convince ? In an absence of communication we have every right to come with our explanations, lots of them are not good ones.

Like, CCP is so desperate to justify time and resources spent, that they are going into a grand delusion now. If everyone uses it because they have no choice - then it is good after all, right ? Pathetic and displays both CCP and players as idiots. I do not want BOTH of us treated like that.

Or, maybe they hold a grandest christmas gift upon their sleeve - and don't want to spoil the surprise ? Dubious, as all we heard about future Incarna in realistic terms will be anything but grand. Or anytime but soon. And the first hint of that hypothetical gift, surprise surprise, was not so great at all.
Most important, it will be :awesome: not when Torfi says so, but when players will. And if they will, there will be no need to force it, opposite, players will jump through the hoops to get it...

Testbed for WOD ? Won't be a big bomb by now, why fear to say that ? (And, sarcasm, when CCP ever tested anything so thoroughly then? whats the rush ?)

Ugliest of all, sole reason for Incarna is to be a show case for underpants. I will not go into details even, much more wise writers already did. I will just add, I find it very weird "sales" tactics, promoting your product with a gun at head. Rather found in places like prisons or concentration camps...

Last one - reason is "just because". I refuse to believe that, because it means we deal with a completely irrational, i.e. madman. Why anyone would want to deal with madman ?

Last note, I always supported an idea that Incarna is good as NPE. But forcing it for everyone - is like keeping Aura telling me how to shoot my millionth rat. Again, no reason then.

Paraphrasing you, the underlying reasons they are resisting are what matters.

And by outright refusing to tell us about reasons makes every word about them understanding need for communications irrelevant at best, cynical lie at worst.

Don't you think that puts us back to square one ?

Sorgenbinder
Posted - 2011.07.03 00:46:00 - [760]
 

Originally by: The Offerer
Edited by: The Offerer on 03/07/2011 00:27:01
Originally by: Stephanie Rose
Originally by: The Offerer
Originally by: John Zorg
Edited by: John Zorg on 02/07/2011 22:06:28
I am sure that there will be no response to this. But couldn't the GTC(PLEX) system be seen as a "Gold Ammo" system. If I have $1 000,000 and I play EVE Online I am able to purchase all the ISK I want with real money. No time is invested into that.

You say so nicely in your blog and on the youtube video that CCP will _NEVER_ have a pay to win feature in EVE-Online but the GTC(PLEX) system is exactly that...

A comment from CCP would be appreciated...

JZ


Yes, you are in position to buy whatever you want by selling PLEX-es, but:
- you are giving game time to a player that need it to play;
- you are getting ISK that was created by that player through gameplay. By needing his ISK you've created content for that player - a need to get a bit more ISK to buy a PLEX.
- you will use that ISK to trade it for some items that other players produced. You've created content for them by having a need for those items and you've boosted the economy in the process (because as wee all know - more selling, healthier economy).

This system is nothing like "golden ammo". This system is good for the game.
----



If your rich an have lots of money, your BUYING an advantage, if your not rich, an don't have money, your not buy anything, but pounding sand. Whether you want to spin it as P2W, or not, it still gives an advantage to people who can afford it. Like someone said on a blog, no one seems to be able to clearly define P2W. Now, this may not be CCP selling you the stuff, it is coming from other players, but it still takes REAL money to make all this work, one way or another.




But what advantage? Smile
Do you have an advantage because you have the items
OR
does the manufacturer have the advantage because he gets your ISK
OR
does a PLEX buyer have an advantage because he can afford (ISK wise) to play the game for free?

It's a win-win-win scenario.Very Happy It's so cool that it's bigger than bi-winning... it's tri-winning.Cool




Yes, there could be several "winners". And everyone else is a "loser".

If I want to fly, say, a Charon but don't have the ISK to buy the skills, PLEX allow me to buy the skillbooks using real-world cash. If I buy those skillbooks from an NPC source, I am the only winner.

Once I've trained the skills, profligate fool that I am, I have no cash to buy the actual ship. Hey presto, another charge to my credit card and yay! - one sparkly new (well, slightly used) Charon sitting outside my balcony. Winners? Me, the guy who sold me the ship, and possibly the guy that built it. Losers? Anyone and everyone who might be in competition with me.

Ispo facto I have bought an in-game advantage.

Mitchello
B O R G
Posted - 2011.07.03 00:53:00 - [761]
 

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
Edited by: Meissa Anunthiel on 02/07/2011 23:02:58
Edited by: Meissa Anunthiel on 02/07/2011 22:56:01
Originally by: Renan Ruivo

Ok.

During the CSM meeting, have you guys at any point inquired CCP about how immersion breaking the current incarnation of incarna (no pun intended) is?! And sorry if the following question sounds offensive.. but.. Does the CSM even cares about immersion?

Thank You.


Yes. We have made the case that getting out of your pod is, as per the lore, supposed to be a traumatic experience.

From a psychology point of view, CCP is however right that it is easier for a human being to identify with a space dolly than with an egg of metal or a spaceship.


True, but what is easier is not necessarily the better path. Especially in an immersive service model.

Identification in such an environment is (to make a long story short) what enables fast but more shallow behavioral interaction. EVE has grown basically (to make another long story short) because of the divide between people by pixels. It's what lies at the heart of macro scale trends and micro scale events alike. The more identification, the less push and pull for the kind of behaviour which creates those events and trends, and which urges people to create and share stories.

For CCP, that should have been a commercial argument. It may seem subtle, but it is significant, I'd rather have seen CCP taken the angle of "avatar as instrument" as such, and not "avatar as identification".

Justin Cody
Caldari
T.A.L.O.N. Company
B4D W01F
Posted - 2011.07.03 00:54:00 - [762]
 

Originally by: Sorgenbinder


Yes, there could be several "winners". And everyone else is a "loser".

If I want to fly, say, a Charon but don't have the ISK to buy the skills, PLEX allow me to buy the skillbooks using real-world cash. If I buy those skillbooks from an NPC source, I am the only winner.

Once I've trained the skills, profligate fool that I am, I have no cash to buy the actual ship. Hey presto, another charge to my credit card and yay! - one sparkly new (well, slightly used) Charon sitting outside my balcony. Winners? Me, the guy who sold me the ship, and possibly the guy that built it. Losers? Anyone and everyone who might be in competition with me.

Ispo facto I have bought an in-game advantage.


The difference is that I cannot manufacture said skill book. AT most I can buy it with that same isk and sell it for a mark up. You obtain no real advantage...except that you literally convert time into money by selling that PLEX. It is an interesting concept, but you don't gain a game breaking advantage any more than does the buyer of the plex gain by playing the game out of your pocket. :-P

Tuggboat
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.03 00:59:00 - [763]
 

Edited by: Tuggboat on 03/07/2011 01:00:30
This is true (edited sorgen), perhaps plex purchases per month should be limited or at least gtcs. Just a thought, it would throttle the imbalance. As things are sitting, I may cancel two accounts and use cash from the savings for plex or AUrum. I am proud of being poor, I want jeans with holes in them and I want a goodwill store. I have a couple extra bucks but something has to give. Between 3 accounts, a gtc here or there, a server and an ISP thats is 90% devoted to EVE :) I could have something tangible. like a small boat, a new motorcycle or something. At this cash level Eve has to compete with real world goods in a real world responsible business manner. A transition to a service economy doesn't come overnight but they must learn how to smooth off the rough edges of their customer experience.

Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.03 01:02:00 - [764]
 

Originally by: Feisty Cadavar
If this was a product I designed - I'd probably have something like you dock up, and you see from the inside of the ship out to the hangar deck with a camera flying around your ship displaying your current ship ( that you can spin ).


And that's precisely what's wrong with the old hangar: it's not based on the new balcony area where your ship currently floats. So, just putting the old one back, and then have you dock to quarters and find yourself in an entirely different hangar, that's just immersion-breaking on a grotesque level.

Just give 'em some time to come up with a new spinning design.

Smagd
Encina Technologies
Namtz' aar K'in
Posted - 2011.07.03 01:04:00 - [765]
 

Fair enough, CCP, although why not simply

NO, NO MT BEYOND VANITY ITEMS



I'll renew my subscription soon as I feel like playing again, but for shorter periods until I'm convinced you meant what you said.

Thank yuo and good night.

Lili Lu
Posted - 2011.07.03 01:04:00 - [766]
 

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
The opposite Angeliq. 2 ships having similar attributes but different models.
It is extremely clear we do not want 2 ships having the same model but one being better than the other. That point of view has been made clear, CCP does not plan on introducing those.


Meissa and CSM, I'm still confused as to what you "ok'd" with CCP. It is not just better ships for aurum, it is also any ships for aurum that are problems and would be a breach of their vanity-only promise. ANY nex-acquired ships without the same mineral inputs for those ships through the historic in-game production route are a violation. CCP has already tried to cast the gold scorpions as vanity only, but it is not simply providing a ship skin, which would be nbd.

THE ****ED UP GOLD SCORPION ALREADY CODED INTO NEX WAITING FOR A SWITCH TO BE FLIPPED SO THAT IT APPEARS is a harm to the player market.Mad THey better be fixing the NEX interface to accept mineral input of equal amounts to producing a player built regular scorpion or they will experience a second wave of un-subs that will surely sink the game. So far the MT store has only bilked Monocle Trollewinskis out of $70 each. Not worth going full un-sub yet. However, I will be in that second wave of unsubs if they start conjuring whole gold scorpions for aurum input alone.

The sad thing is that if the company has investors pushing them to get more revenue, or make DUST and WoD faster, or internally some large stakeholder presently running things wishing to cash out, the company could have raised income in a better ways. They might have sold thousands to tens of thousands of $1-$10 monocles etc instead of 52 $70 monocles in the first 40 hours. They could have said hey guys sorry but we're raising our subscription prices $1-$2 per month accross the board, faced a lot of forum flaming over it, but nowhere near the ****-storm of unsubs they have so far.

They've got to stop hiring stupid marketing consultant tossers and start thinking and feeling for themselves about what their customer population wants. P2W and F2P games have shorter lifespans and I would hazzard to guess less profitability anyway. Even if there is more short-term "profitability" in those gaming models it is not a good fit for a long-term company like what CCP has been (since they took on two large game development projectsConfused) and what the EVE player base had come to expect. Like many have already said in this thread we are suspending judgment waiting to see what they do not just what they say.

To go to another topic, Incarna is fine imo, as long as they can reduce the heat side effects and recognize that immersion is promoted by not forcing people to de-pod if they are only docking to reload or reship. Hell put in some brief annimation of a container of ammo being craned into the current ship, or the pod craned to a new ship, as long as the loading of the full-body avatar in cq and the wis areas are not mandatory. I look forward to those myself as long as my aging computer does not fry but they've got to realize that not every re-dock would ential and disembark from the pod. That would not promote immersion.

Lastly, I was one of those ***s that was actually interested in the WoD game. That is until all this and learning that it will be MT and P2W (as will DUST which interested me not at all). So, they lost a customer for WoD with all this. The big thing about DUST though is if it is MT it could **** through the backdoor EVE with P2W. Tread carefully CCP, this fight isn't over.

Teala Te'Jir
Amarr
Mr. Benjamin Enterprises
Posted - 2011.07.03 01:06:00 - [767]
 

It seems CCP once again has not made themselves clear enough. So all they need to do is make a one word answer to the question:

Do you "ever" intend to sell non-vanity items(p2win items) in the game of EVE?

Just give the one word answer. A simple word, it is called - "No".

Chrysanthemum Korik
Monocles Of Death
Posted - 2011.07.03 01:06:00 - [768]
 

Originally by: Ra Vhim
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow

Yes, CCP still wants to dock straight to Incarna.



Did they explain why we must be forced into Incarna? Or did they explain why pilots must leave their pod every time they dock? I am hoping for an other answer then that this is CCP's way to promote NeX (and I would very much appreciate hearing about it).


Clearly the cash-shop is designed to get cash to CCP. To that effect being in an avatar is critical. And for a large portion of the playerbase, being in an avatar for EvE is completely incidental to a majority of their game play, so CCP, sadly imo, has to force it. They want people in avatars shopping and spending real cash.

Dan Estrellas Amigo
Posted - 2011.07.03 01:08:00 - [769]
 

I think they're playing us with that comment on MTs.

Quote:
It is CCP's plan that the Noble Exchange (NeX store) will be used for the sale of vanity items only. There are no plans, and have been no plans, as per previous communication and CSM meetings, to introduce the sale of game breaking items or enhancements in the NeX store.


Break it down.
Quote:
It is CCP's plan that the Noble Exchange (NeX store) will be used for the sale of vanity items only.
This doesn't mean anything. All this says is that if game-affecting MTs happen, they won't be sold in the NeX store. That's just not the point is it.

The second sentence does exactly the same. It reads "Blah blah blah blah blah in the NeX store."

On top of that, as others have mentioned, it uses unclear wording. "Game-breaking" is something that can be argued. "Non-vanity, game-affecting" is not. They know what clarity is and deliberately side-stepped it.


Look at the CCP writing and the CSM writing in the same blog. The different styles are plain; one writes with a very easy understanding of its readers. The other writes like a press release trying not to say anything completely concrete.

Dodgy Past
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Posted - 2011.07.03 01:11:00 - [770]
 

Edited by: Dodgy Past on 03/07/2011 01:17:16
Edited by: Dodgy Past on 03/07/2011 01:16:32
6-8 months before news of MT for convenience ( which will be abused into MT for advantage ) leaks out and we have another explosion of rage.

It's somewhat ironic that the only thing the document successfully communicates is that CCP knows they're not very good at communication. Oscillating between no non-vanity MTs and no game breaking MTs in the same document with no definition of what a non game breaking MT is Rolling Eyes

The CSM went to Iceland knowing what the players needed to hear yet CCP managed to hurf blurf them so that the reality is not only has the faith of many player in CCP not been restored but also CSM 6 has also managed to tarnish itself as well.

From what I've seen many players are far from ready to reinvest themselves in Eve having broken their emotional attachment to the game over the last couple of weeks.

Ispia Jaydrath
Posted - 2011.07.03 01:14:00 - [771]
 

Originally by: Kane Molou
Originally by: Ispia Jaydrath

Actually it's because we voted for them to represent us.

Hope this helps~~


Not really, No.

Because I don't see how them being voted into the CSM makes them any better then we are.. they are NOT better then any other eve player except they get Free trips to Iceland and a fancy title in the forums.


Okay you are really bad at nesting quotes.

They are better because we said they are better. We got to choose, out of all the players in eve, which ones we trusted to go to iceland and talk to CCP. Those players became the CSM. If you voted for someone who you don't trust, that's your malfunction.

Quote:
We are expected to believe them based on the information they get, and yet the information they get we aren't allowed to know about.. ok doesn't any one else see the contradiction in that?

We the players... are meant to believe everything is hunky dory based on the opionin of people who are getting free lunches off a company that has lied to us in the past..

We the players are apparently not allowed to look at the information because we are 'lesser' then the C.S.M. And yet we are meant to come to the SAME conclusions as the CSM..

It logically doesn't make sense, and honestly it's kinda like the current situation in Australia where Gillard is trying to ram her Carbon Tax down peoples throats after saying it wasn't going to happen.. only in this case it's CCP, Micro/Macro Transactions and a really screwed up lack of Content in the latest 'expansion' that isn't even complete.

Again.. CCP lift the NDA or Release the same information the csm got to see for ALL your players to see and make their OWN minds up about it.


This sperging about NDA is ridiculous. To take yourself seriously, you would have to somehow not understand that for a company to publish its' development roadmap and internal affairs would be really dumb and will never happen.

By the way, the lulzy weighted phrasing and rhetorical questions lose their intended effect when you go off the rails and start talking about real world politics. It tells readers that you're the sort of person who posts about real world politics on the internet in their spare time.

Tuggboat
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.03 01:20:00 - [772]
 

It really is and has been easy enough to buy an advantage with plex, there is no advantage to CCP NOT exploring vanity items exclusively, I don't see a motive at this time or 6 months from now, If the game dwindled and volume dropped so would their expenses and headaches. :)

Hmm maybe that will become the motivation.

Sorgenbinder
Posted - 2011.07.03 01:20:00 - [773]
 

Originally by: Justin Cody
Originally by: Sorgenbinder


Yes, there could be several "winners". And everyone else is a "loser".

If I want to fly, say, a Charon but don't have the ISK to buy the skills, PLEX allow me to buy the skillbooks using real-world cash. If I buy those skillbooks from an NPC source, I am the only winner.

Once I've trained the skills, profligate fool that I am, I have no cash to buy the actual ship. Hey presto, another charge to my credit card and yay! - one sparkly new (well, slightly used) Charon sitting outside my balcony. Winners? Me, the guy who sold me the ship, and possibly the guy that built it. Losers? Anyone and everyone who might be in competition with me.

Ispo facto I have bought an in-game advantage.


The difference is that I cannot manufacture said skill book. AT most I can buy it with that same isk and sell it for a mark up. You obtain no real advantage...except that you literally convert time into money by selling that PLEX. It is an interesting concept, but you don't gain a game breaking advantage any more than does the buyer of the plex gain by playing the game out of your pocket. :-P


I wasn't talking about a game-breaking advantage, just an advantage. I wonder how many devoted PvPers buy replacement ships and modules using PLEX rather than by slogging away to raise the ISK in-game.

Which brings me to another related topic - the issue of all these people cracking on about EVE becoming an immersive experience. How immersive is it to buy advancement (as opposed to the contentious term advantage) using $ and ? Is this game actually about ships in space, or does it have ambitions to become an alternative reality? If the latter, what place is there for real-world cash transactions aside from a monthly subscription to maintain the game environment? It certainly seems to me that Alternative Reality is the path CCP are treading.

I recognise that I'm a hard-liner on this subject, but to my way of thinking PLEX are simply a pragmatic means by which CCP can beat the ISK farmers at their own game, and any player who converts PLEX into ISK is breaking the spirit of the immersive game experience.

Innominate
Amarr
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.07.03 01:22:00 - [774]
 

Edited by: Innominate on 03/07/2011 01:27:34
And we're right back where we started. All that has been addressed is the tinfoil hat speculation that CCP already had immediate plans for gold ammo.

The player base asked a simple question that needs only a one word answer. Instead we get a lot of weasel words and equivocation.

Quote:

It is CCPs plan that the Noble Exchange (NeX store) will be used for the sale of vanity items only. There are no plans, and have been no plans, as per previous communication and CSM meetings, to introduce the sale of game breaking items or enhancements in the NeX store.



This is meaningless because there is no commitment. CCP could decide tomorrow to implement gold-ammo in the NeX store without contradicting themselves. It also says nothing about aurum use outside of the NeX store, such as(to contrive an example) trading aurum to an agent for faction standings. And then it qualifies the whole thing by referring only to "game breaking items or enhancements".

Lots of words that say nothing.

Tuggboat
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.03 01:26:00 - [775]
 

The advantage of a PLEX is similar to getting a business loan but like a business loan, if everyone else is using them, the under-capitalized player gets edged out. PLEX like loans help you adjust to changing game conditions brought on by nerfs and expansions from CCP's side.

Vandrion
Gallente
The Collective
B O R G
Posted - 2011.07.03 01:29:00 - [776]
 

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel


There is clear understanding on both sides of what we (actually) both consider "game-breaking" or "pay2win".




How about you make sure the actual player base knows what BOTH sides consider game breaking or P2W????


Answer.... only like the 38th time I have asked.....

Dimitryy
Gallente
Broski Enterprises
Elite Space Guild
Posted - 2011.07.03 01:30:00 - [777]
 

I'm happy with this response, looks pretty legit.

Muchos Besitos
Posted - 2011.07.03 01:34:00 - [778]
 

So... I'm eagerly awaiting how CCP will justify $60 for a monocle... or simply the fact that we will be purchasing these vanity goods at far greater prices than we all ever imagined. Whether it's a handcrafted one of a kind $1000 pair of jeans, or a $30 pair at Wal-mart... it's not the same when transferred in-game. Since we all know you can duplicate and process unlimited virtual items compared to real world items. So, please don't try to throw some lame $1000 pair of Japanese jeans example at us.

These goods should range from $1 to $10 max. Anything else is a joke.

Leon Razor
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.03 01:37:00 - [779]
 

Glad to see things have calmed down, EVE is still breathing, and CCP is on speaking terms. It's going to take work to rebuild trust with the player base, but these are the needed steps. Looking forward to the minutes and upcoming dev blogs.

Naradius
DEATHFUNK
Posted - 2011.07.03 01:38:00 - [780]
 

I'm pretty happy with the response, concerning the issues that where addressed, but many things still have not been addressed, namely - half finished features and bugs that are ignored for years at a time (FW, 0.0 Sov, etc). For me it is these things that take priority over the NEX store, and I just wished that CCP and the CSM thought they were important enough to spend time to work out a roadmap for fixing Sad


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