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Moria Kethar
Posted - 2011.07.02 20:58:00 - [571]
 

Greetings CCP

Issues that remain unaddressed: The email evidence that the CEO does not understand the game/product or community at a basic level. When the development team will put work into the parts of the game that matter - Spaceships! Gameplay, ship balance, hybrids, 0.0, ect - others have listed issues far more eloquently then I.

All in all, the avoidance for the last week of answering the big yellow question (what you are now claiming was just a gross misunderstanding) makes anything you and your representatives have to say extremely difficult to believe. Trust, once violated is very hard to regain - especially when your statement:

1) Still leaves "wiggle room".
2) We already know that your new Dust game will have full on MT.
3) Dust is going to be a influential part of Eve.

The very real impression I -still- have is that EVE is viewed as a cash cow to be milked by CCP for as long as possible until Dust or WoD is online. That there is still no real direction for improving Eve-the-spaceship game itself or evolving Eve further within the context of this wonderful universe that exists. It is simultaneously the forced test bed (evident from the forced CQ) for the technology that will go into these new games and will also provide the funds for those games.

All this, combined with ongoing ---gameplay--- issues that CCP has continually failed to address. The painfully serious balance issues between faction ships, weapons (can anyone say hybrids?) combined with myriad other issues that have been ongoing for ages that no amount of prettying the stations will resolve. Gameplay -NEEDS- to come first in any game if it is to be a long term success. Sparkle, shiny and key jingles can only keep people entertained and subscribed for so long compared to committing to provide solid gamplay.

What feeling do new Gallente players have when they get told for the first time that their faction ships are worthless, and to start training toward flying a Drake or just /unsub? In an ideal corp, this shouldn't happen, and yet I've seen it happen frequently.

Reinforcing this is staggering self-delusion evident within the company re: the state of the game from the now infamous Hilmar email. There is nothing in these blogs or statements that shows those making the decisions have any interest in resolving the issues that strike the heart of the game because they still see the game as being 'premium' already.

(tl:dr) - I still won't be the golden goose with game play issues that you kill to pay for other games. I have hopes for the future, but until I see a direction change toward addressing Gameplay issues, my sub remains -1

Edward Monton
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:01:00 - [572]
 

Originally by: Arja Marketta
Good to have a confirmation that non-vanity items will never appear in the store. Good also about ship-spinning, for those that like it.

What I don't see is anyone from CCP addressing Hilmar's email, or the tone therein. The CSM statement acknowledges player upset over it

Quote:
The Leaked Hilmar Global Email: We were appalled by the leaked Hilmar email and the atrocious and out-of-touch messaging it contained. We sympathize and agree with those players offended and disgusted by it.


but nothing from CCP on that topic.




I'm also intrigued by the absence of a CCP statement on the Hilmar email. The Hilmar email is so obviously related to the EASY "Pay to win" slideshow, in which Ben explicitly espouses lying to the player base with injecting pay-to-win microtransactions into a game. I'd really like to see that email addressed by CCP before I'm willing to resub my accounts.

AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:02:00 - [573]
 

As bad as CCP's statement was, CSM's was worse.

"The Fearless "Greed is Good?" Leak: We accept CCP's position that Fearless is a deliberately controversial internal publication and does not represent the policy of CCP Management or of CCP Zulu, the Senior Producer of EVE Online, nor the direction of game design."

Bully for you, we don't. Nor do we see CCP addressing that issue. Could it be because their 'position' is bull****?

For those not familiar with the Greed is Good newsletter, this thread thoroughly discredits CCP's position (the one this CSM accepts.)

Grey Griff
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:02:00 - [574]
 

there still a lot of grey areas, while i'll pay for my expired acc, you need to rebuild trust from the ground ccp

CEOcat
Gallente
CAT Corp
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:03:00 - [575]
 

Edited by: CEOcat on 02/07/2011 21:03:59
"CCP committed to introduce in some form at a future date. Until that functionality is added back in, the option to load station environments will remain in the Settings menu."

NO, NO and NO.

I don't want a spinning ship and I don't want a door.

What I want is the lowest resource hogging useful station environment possible!

That would be the static ship background that you used to have before when having load station enviroment unchecked.

Just bring the old version of not loading the station environment back and give us a 2d ship environment instead of a door.

The spinning ship also defeats the purpose of not loading Incarna since it is not resource minimized. It is way better then having to load Incarna but the point is not have a spinning ship. The point is to have a station environment that is as light on the computer as possible while still being moderately useful like showing a static picture of the ship you are in that you can open or your cargo by double clicking...

Rocom
Brotherhood of Heart and Steel
Iron Heart Brotherhood
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:04:00 - [576]
 

\o/

+9001 Loyalty Points for CCP

Kytheria
Minmatar
Relevent Technologies
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:05:00 - [577]
 

I am willing to take CCP and the CSM's statements at face value at this point.

That said, I am watching CCP's actions very carefully. Their actions of the last few weeks have blown 5 years of trust.

Understand CCP that the player unrest you've experienced is not only about game-changing (not "game-breaking") MT. You have a long way yet to go. As a player who was looking forward to playing WoD as well, the Fearless leak really turned me off to the game. I don't appreciate the idea of being milked for money in any game that I play. Tread carefully.

+2 accounts resubbed - more are on hold while I watch how this pans out.


Don Aubaris
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:06:00 - [578]
 

Edited by: Don Aubaris on 02/07/2011 21:09:00
Originally by: Mr Epeen
Originally by: Don Aubaris

Edit : And I'm in aggreement with some other posts. Some kind of 'amnesty' should be given to players that got banned for protesting too fiery.



You mean for threatening real live employees over a video game?

Bans should be permanent. Zero tolerance is the only deterrent for this behavior.

Mr Epeen Cool


Things get said in the heat of the moment. And what one person takes for a deadly insult is another ones normal language use. I think CCP is at the moment the last one who should insist on taking text literally. CCP should take atleast half of the blame because of their bad communications. It doesn't have to be without conditions. An apology as prerequest would be normal. Personally I would worry more about the guy that doesn't yell in forums but just books a plane ticket.


Dennie Fleetfoot
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:07:00 - [579]
 

Edited by: Dennie Fleetfoot on 02/07/2011 21:10:10
This has gone a long way to eliviate my concerns.

CCP should learn a valuable lesson from this whole sorry affair which is look before you leap. And pay attention to your exsisting customer base before p'ing them off in the hunt for new ones.

My alt will remain unsubbed for the next couple of weeks while I wait to read the new stream of dev blogs explaining the thinking behind some of the decisions that were made but the chances of him being reactivated are high.

This, being my main will remain subbed and will continue to be so as long as CCP hold fast to their assurences. I will not call them promises, as that is just setting my up for a possible bout of quit rage sometime in the future.

Thanks once again to the CSM for the hard work they do, and thanks to CCP for realising that this was the only way to deal with the situation.

You guys had no idea just how close I was to just quiting the whole game

Jhagiti Tyran
Muppet Ninja's
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:07:00 - [580]
 

Any news on the rough timeline of getting rid of the low res brown door? Understandably it will not happen overnight but will it be a typical case of CCPs soon™?

Bluestream3
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:07:00 - [581]
 

As a previous poster said,

Originally by: Vyktor Abyss
So you had to fly people all the way to Iceland before you could answer "Purely vanity items only".


I find this a bit strange too. Actually I find the need for the CSM a bit strange - they sit there and talk about their one-way communication that is the dev-blog and the forums. That makes me wonder, there was a lot of very thought out forum posts that clearly discussed all of the issues (probably) that the CSM discussed with CCP these two days, any Eve-player could've told CCP what the players wanted to have answered or changed, and many did. Yet they call the forums a one-way communication and they need the CSM to translate for them.

Now don't get me wrong I've got nothing against the people in CSM at all, as far as I know they reflect the opinions of the players, and they probably do it better than most would, but I still think it's odd how CCP couldn't come up with this a lot earlier by themselves.

Anyway, I think most of us got what we wanted, they're working on the old hangar, there will be no gold ammo, the fearless leak seems to be nothing to worry about. At least not when it comes to Eve, I couldn't care less about Dust or WoD. I just hope they can listen to the players themselves when it's needed, even if it's good to involve the CSM in some matters, this, in my opinion should not have been one where it was needed because the views of the players was so clear long before this meeting. But perhaps I'm just naive to think so.

Bizzi Zeitschrift
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:08:00 - [582]
 

Originally by: Henrica Gaufridus
As big of an ass as Mittens is, I know he's not about to take **** from anyone. Actually, I think that's why he doesn't take **** from anyone, because he IS an ass. He's also a relatively straight-shooter, he'll tell you if he thinks you're full of ****. Thus, when he ended his blog with the following statement, I believe him:

I want to sleep for a week and if I have to come back to Reyk before December's summit I'm going to be ****ing furious. But, ~imo~ ****'s sorted with CCP.

So I guess I'll stick around until CCP does something else stupid.


Maybe some of you should stick your original plans and just do us a favor and leave. If you're looking for something to get mad at, you'll find it for sure.

DeadDuck
Amarr
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:09:00 - [583]
 

Nice news in this blog. Cool

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:09:00 - [584]
 

One more flight before I get home... whew.

I want to clarify a few things about my quick explanation of ship spinning.

The discussion went like this:

CSM: CSM5 was promised that Incarna would load as fast and have similar functionality as the old Hangar. But this isn't so. And also, it melts video cards. What are you going to do?

Torfi: (To his credit, he offered this without prompting) Until we can get the performance to where it needs to be, we are going to implement something similar to the old hangar mode; that will be less costly to load (and thus faster) and will not contribute to global warming as much.

CSM: With ship-spinning?

Torfi: (Thinking fast!) Of course, ship-spinning!

CSM: (Removes Torfi's name from the "List of devs to be fed to the whales")

Yes, CCP still wants to dock straight to Incarna. Yes, we all think that's a mistake, and we'll keep on trying to convince them they are wrong. But there is time to either convince them or (more likely) blackmail them. But no matter what, there will be ship-spinning -- it will be added to Incarna and you will be able to spin from the balcony.

And who knows, CCP may come up with something that seamlessly connects to Incarna that is more immersive than the current hangar, in which case I don't think there's a real problem.

As for why they can't just restore the old hangar, Torfi will have to chime in with the exact details, but the tl/dr is that it needs to be redone using their new graphics system (the one used by Incarna).

With respect to the issue of why CCP can't just say "NEVER" to gold ammo/P2W/whatever-you-want-to-call-it-this-week, I just posted a blog that gives my perspective on this.

Potter Stuart and the Purchase of Insurance

Lederstrumpf
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:10:00 - [585]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
At some point in time, Incarna will also have


Can you guarantee what you're promising here?

Otherwise you're just doing a guess & advertise kind of job here, which finally can have the "Liar!" sticker end up on your forehead, too!

dicen3
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:11:00 - [586]
 

I have no "plans" to continue to pay for this game.

Stoned Dragonias
Amarr
Southern Cross Empire
Flying Dangerous
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:12:00 - [587]
 

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
CCP is going to add as a replacement for the door wallpaper that addresses both concerns.
It will not be the same old hangar view, but will be similar in terms of functionality and performance.
This needs to be permanent, not temporary.

CyberGh0st
Minmatar
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:12:00 - [588]
 

Well, with this statement I could resub again in good conscience, however I am a bit burned out, and want to see how it goes.

So while I have good hope, I am not resubbing just yet.

AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:14:00 - [589]
 

"We believe that the situation that has unfolded in the past week has been a perfect storm of CCP communication failures, poor planning and sheer bad luck."

Seriously, were you guys drunk when you wrote this?

There was no communication failure. There was a communication success. We got to know what CCP really thinks for a change. We got reliable accurate information in a timely manner for a change. This joint statement is a communication failure.

Poor planning? Well yes, but that's nothing new. CCP's plans for EVE (Internet Spaceships) suck. They sucked before. They will no doubt continue sucking. I don't think their plans have changed one iota because of this.

Bad luck? I'm not sure how you equate dishonesty and contempt with bad luck. It's unlucky that the folks at CCP are morally bankrupt?

Nyssa Litari
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:15:00 - [590]
 

I think this has reasonably addressed our concerns. Thank you CCP and thank you CSM.

(I'm sure I don't speak for all those who aren't lawyers IRL but play one here on the forums.)

Karthwritte
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:16:00 - [591]
 

Edited by: Karthwritte on 02/07/2011 21:16:23
Incarna should have been developed as a full app. That way Dust people could also log in into Incarna and the whole New Eden could have being reunited in a single app and have the MT fest would love CCP.

Karos Vandarl
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:16:00 - [592]
 

War against CCP is now officially over. now lets get back to shooting each other ..k ?

Ben Derindar
Dirty Deeds Corp.
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:17:00 - [593]
 

Edited by: Ben Derindar on 02/07/2011 21:23:52
Quote:
There are no plans, and have been no plans, as per previous communication and CSM meetings, to introduce the sale of game breaking items or enhancements in the NeX store.

Your internal publications suggest otherwise. The CSM may be happy to overlook that, but I'm not.

Quote:
CCP acknowledges that communication surrounding the launch of the virtual goods store should have been better.

I think the most disappointing aspect of this is that it's happened before. CCP as a company seems utterly incapable of learning from its past mistakes in this area, which is just infuriating.

By refusing to say there never will be non-vanity MT in the future, after three blogs on the subject, I can't help but assume that it *will* be introduced at some point in the future. And *when* that happens, I *will* be gone.

In the meantime, not only do I suggest that IA get to the bottom of finding out who was responsible for leaking the PDF and the e-mail to begin with, but I also strongly suggest that you improve your workplace environment and culture beyond the current state in which someone in the company was so disgruntled that they saw fit to leak anything in the first place.

/Ben

Stormchyld
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:17:00 - [594]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
I am in transit back home (now in Boston Airport) but will be happy to answer questions as time permits. I hope the devblog clears up a lot of things for everyone.


... It clears up enough for me. I appreciate the CSM for making the trip and I hope that CCP continues to do what it has done for a very long time... listen to the players and work with them. Both CCP and the players have helped make Eve what it is and ignoring either isn't productive to anyone. Wink

I'thari
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:17:00 - [595]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Torfi: (To his credit, he offered this without prompting) Until we can get the performance to where it needs to be, we are going to implement something similar to the old hangar mode; that will be less costly to load (and thus faster) and will not contribute to global warming as much....Torfi: (Thinking fast!) Of course, ship-spinning!
Considering that they haven't planned it (so :18 months:) they more liekly at some point say "it runhs good enough already, no need for hangar".

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Yes, CCP still wants to dock straight to Incarna. Yes, we all think that's a mistake, and we'll keep on trying to convince them they are wrong. But there is time to either convince them or (more likely) blackmail them.
Wish I had your confidence, seeing how CCP keeping CSM "in the know" of all things they release...

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
But no matter what, there will be ship-spinning -- it will be added to Incarna and you will be able to spin from the balcony.
That is bad, I don't need ship spinning from balcony, I need hangar.

Alejan Gerakh
Minmatar
Clan Hyena
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:18:00 - [596]
 

Originally by: AkJon Ferguson
"We believe that the situation that has unfolded in the past week has been a perfect storm of CCP communication failures, poor planning and sheer bad luck."

Seriously, were you guys drunk when you wrote this?

There was no communication failure. There was a communication success. We got to know what CCP really thinks for a change. We got reliable accurate information in a timely manner for a change. This joint statement is a communication failure.

Poor planning? Well yes, but that's nothing new. CCP's plans for EVE (Internet Spaceships) suck. They sucked before. They will no doubt continue sucking. I don't think their plans have changed one iota because of this.

Bad luck? I'm not sure how you equate dishonesty and contempt with bad luck. It's unlucky that the folks at CCP are morally bankrupt?

Just quit and save the majority of players, who actually aren't as jaded and tinfoil-clad as you, the agony.

Raid'En
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:18:00 - [597]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow

And who knows, CCP may come up with something that seamlessly connects to Incarna that is more immersive than the current hangar, in which case I don't think there's a real problem.

well make us load incarna while on our pod, stucked on the bacony, and if you move you leave the pod
if they are willing to work on a better thing, like they said, then i'm pretty sure they can find a solution that will load incarna while still being RP okay.

we want to be on our ship.
they want us to load incarna
then make us begin inside the ship.
and if we click "leave ship", we appear as character

and when we launch the game we are always outisde the ship (better to sleep on our bed than on the goo)

something like that

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:20:00 - [598]
 

Originally by: Lederstrumpf
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
At some point in time, Incarna will also have

Can you guarantee what you're promising here?

I'm not promising anything. I am telling you what I think CCP's position is, based on what I heard at the summit.

I don't work for CCP, and cannot make promises on their behalf. As a CSM, I represent you, I advocate on your behalf, I give CCP feedback when requested, and I keep you as informed as possible.

Smoking Blunts
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:22:00 - [599]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
One more flight before I get home... whew.

I want to clarify a few things about my quick explanation of ship spinning.

The discussion went like this:

CSM: CSM5 was promised that Incarna would load as fast and have similar functionality as the old Hangar. But this isn't so. And also, it melts video cards. What are you going to do?

Torfi: (To his credit, he offered this without prompting) Until we can get the performance to where it needs to be, we are going to implement something similar to the old hangar mode; that will be less costly to load (and thus faster) and will not contribute to global warming as much.

CSM: With ship-spinning?

Torfi: (Thinking fast!) Of course, ship-spinning!

CSM: (Removes Torfi's name from the "List of devs to be fed to the whales")

Yes, CCP still wants to dock straight to Incarna. Yes, we all think that's a mistake, and we'll keep on trying to convince them they are wrong. But there is time to either convince them or (more likely) blackmail them. But no matter what, there will be ship-spinning -- it will be added to Incarna and you will be able to spin from the balcony.

And who knows, CCP may come up with something that seamlessly connects to Incarna that is more immersive than the current hangar, in which case I don't think there's a real problem.

As for why they can't just restore the old hangar, Torfi will have to chime in with the exact details, but the tl/dr is that it needs to be redone using their new graphics system (the one used by Incarna).

With respect to the issue of why CCP can't just say "NEVER" to gold ammo/P2W/whatever-you-want-to-call-it-this-week, I just posted a blog that gives my perspective on this.

Potter Stuart and the Purchase of Insurance


i dont personnal want anything to do with incaran, i jsut want a station enironment that fuctions and dosnt hog all my pc has to offer. incrana and man barbie can die off for all i care.

we all know ccp's way of implementing things, it will take for ever and it will suck just as much from peoepls pc's and probibly more.
are they taht disconnected with players( almost everyone i know in game, corp and alliance) have and share this same view. we all multi box and ccp are currently killing that for many of us. no longer can i run 6 accounts, so im dam well not gonan pay for them.

Alejan Gerakh
Minmatar
Clan Hyena
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:22:00 - [600]
 

Originally by: Raid'En
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow

And who knows, CCP may come up with something that seamlessly connects to Incarna that is more immersive than the current hangar, in which case I don't think there's a real problem.

well make us load incarna while on our pod, stucked on the bacony, and if you move you leave the pod
if they are willing to work on a better thing, like they said, then i'm pretty sure they can find a solution that will load incarna while still being RP okay.

we want to be on our ship.
they want us to load incarna
then make us begin inside the ship.
and if we click "leave ship", we appear as character

and when we launch the game we are always outisde the ship (better to sleep on our bed than on the goo)

something like that

That's what it sounds like they are doing.


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