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Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Posted - 2011.07.02 18:42:00 - [391]
 

Edited by: Nyphur on 02/07/2011 18:42:40
Originally by: Telven Stareal
Originally by: Nyphur
To re-iterate what was said on air on EVE Radio last night:

If you still have any further concerns following this devblog, please mail them to brendan@massively.com and I will do my best to ask the CSM and to ask CCP at Tuesday's press conference.





Well I admit, if you "try" to read into what was posted or "betwen" the lines. You can find just about anything you want. They said Vanity Only. Last time I cecked when somene says only this, it meant ONLY, that is nothing else but the item/type referred to.

If you want t "read" into what wasn't posted, your call. But do try to also read what IS there.

Definitely agreed. The issue here is that CCP knew people would be TRYING to read between the lines, and the statement should have been designed to be robust under those circumstances. However, that's a tricky thing to do and the more productive option is to have the CSM and CCP answer any remaining questions, and release minutes of the meetings in Iceland. Both of these are happening, so this is pretty much the best resolution we could have hoped for given the crcumstances.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.07.02 18:43:00 - [392]
 

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
So it's about the "idea" that your player goes out of its pod?
Or is it about the associated performance of loading your character?

Which is it?

Both have been addressed by CCP's statement.
You're trolling, right?

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.07.02 18:44:00 - [393]
 

Originally by: XavierVE
Thanks for stepping back from the brink, CCP.

Though this would have been easier and far more cost-effective had you just come out and said "No" to the big yellow question to start with.


they haven't said no yet

Eclorc
Posted - 2011.07.02 18:45:00 - [394]
 

CCP Still HAS NOT answered NO to the big yellow question.

not only is there the other wiggle room crud, but now theres a new get-out clause manufactured before our very eyes:

"investment of money...should not give you an unfair advantage...CSM,under NDA...agrees that nothing they saw breaks this principle"

This can be argued now that any for-advantage item can be traded for PLEX AFTER purchase.

I guess the answer to yellow question is "YES" form them, which we knew but wanted the honset answer. Moving on. Bye Eve, it was fun while your brain still worked




Stephanie Rose
Nos Exigo Effercio
Posted - 2011.07.02 18:45:00 - [395]
 

Pay to win has been in EvE ever since PLEX was introduced. If I can go buy 3500 dollars worth of GTCs, an then have 200 PLEXES to sell on the market, at 350mill a PLEX (not sure of the current price), that is 70 billion isk. I can then go to the character bizarre, buy just about ANY toon I want, an should have enough left over for a super carrier, or maybe even a titan, (no clue anymore what either cost).

Now, EvE doesn't have Pay to win? Who are you trying to convince us or yourselves? You sure as hell aren't convincing me! A had a couple choice adjectives to add about what I think about you, but I will refrain from throwing stones.

Gets real tiring when you think we are all cattle an can be herded.

RougeOperator
Posted - 2011.07.02 18:46:00 - [396]
 

Originally by: KrustyKrab
I read a very good, very long article from Vanity Fair about Iceland, their 'men', and how they think (and a bit of 'why' they think the way they do).

Vanity Fair - Full Article Text

My post and link isn't to bash CCP or any Icelander, but to hopefully let you gain some insight as to what the mindset is. A lot of us (Americans especially, which I am one) can't be asked to understand another culture, another way of thinking that might be different than our own.

Some might focus on the 'elves' bit, which was honestly a bit amusing, but no different than those in my country that still believe somehow that the earth is only 6,000 years old, or Iranians that believe the holocaust during WW2 never happened.

We have a good idea of the British mindset based on their history. We have a good idea of the German mindset based on their history. Same for America, Russia, etc. It is good to try and understand people of a different culture.

After reading the article, and I'll admit it is just one view (however to me, it is a very good view), I learned things that I honestly never knew before about Iceland.

What does this have to do with Eve and the current situation we find ourselves in? Maybe something, maybe nothing, but reading is good for you, and it might make you interested enough to cross-reference the info in the article with other articles and such (ie never get your info/news from a single source).

Anyway, carry on.


Wow just wow.

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.07.02 18:47:00 - [397]
 

I mean, lets boil this down: CCP refused to commit to no non-vanity transactions. They then came out with a statement that seemed to do so but was carefully worded to not actually commit to non-vanity transactions.

Now, after two days of "talks" (with the devs, not the suits who would push gold ammo through) they give a statement still worded to carefully allow future non-vanity transactions.

That's about as clear as you can get. The CSM was hoodwinked.

Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.02 18:47:00 - [398]
 

Originally by: CCP Navigator
Hello everyone,

(...)

Some of you are concerned that EVE will focus on improvements to Incarna while Flying in Space will have a lesser focus. I can assure you that CCP Soundwave and his team have some announcements coming up after the summer which will make you very happy indeed. yes, we will improve on Incarna while at the same time improving on many aspects of Flying in Space. I have no intention of stealing the thunder from Team BFF and telling you what these are but I can tell you that there will be many happy people as a result Smile


@ CCP Navigator: I hope you continue on your vision for Incarna. Like the man said in his leaked email, 10 years from now, no one's gonna give a hoot whether some whiner couldn't run Incarna on his laptop a decade ago. Personally, I think it's visually stunning, and it adds a whole new dimension to EVE.

RAW23
Posted - 2011.07.02 18:47:00 - [399]
 

Originally by: Telven Stareal

First, please look up what the word opaque means. And while you do that, also what the word "only" means as well.

I say this because they very clearly say, "The NeX store will "ONLY" sell vanity items."

I really don't know how much more clear they can be..


Bolded and underlined the relevant part for you. You do see that by acknowledging a class of grey area transactions they have not said there will be no non-vanity items. It seems entirely possible that 'convenience' purchases, especially those that relate to services rather than items, such as extra fitting slots or faction standings, might be sold through a mechanism other than the NeX store. If they intended 'game breaking' to cover all non-vanity purchases a) why not say that, and b) where could there possibly be any grey areas?

Alejan Gerakh
Minmatar
Clan Hyena
Posted - 2011.07.02 18:47:00 - [400]
 

As expected, the people who wanted to quit are quitting, after reading everything as double-talk, just like they did with the Sunday devBlog.

Is that sort of hard-line cynicism really that enjoyable? I'd think that kind of mindset would result in an ulcer or aneurism rather readily.

For those people, here's an important message from your local services:

"If it weren't for my horse, I wouldn't have spent that year in college."

Charles Javeroux
Gallente
INTERSTELLAR CREDIT
Posted - 2011.07.02 18:48:00 - [401]
 

Very HappyVery Happy HOORAY for the end of the "Drama Season". Can we now all be friends and love each other <3 <3 <3

Baroness D
Posted - 2011.07.02 18:48:00 - [402]
 

Edited by: Baroness D on 02/07/2011 18:49:15
You still didn't answer the much greater problems with CCP.

-You suck at being open and clear with information to your players. You dump everything on us at the last minute and assume we're not gonna complain. Ex. Why do patch notes come out 2 hrs before the patch? And before you assume that patch notes are the problem they are not. They are just indicative of the the problem.

-Your customer service is terrible. 6 days to answer a petition? Half the time the answer is wrong. Getting even the smallest reimbursement is a fight. And you make statements on the forums then reverse them without explanation. Like dual character training after a character transfer.

-You offer NO COMPENSATION to players for any losses or miscommunication. No matter what goes wrong your attitude is that its the players fault not CCP's. When you introduced the free day worth of spare skill points you made it sound like it would be done whenever there was a hiccup with the server but then never did it again. Again returning to the idea that you had a problem but its not your fault so players just have to suffer.

-I know of players who have been banned without notice or explanation and you assume CCP's right while the player is wrong. You offer no communication or explanation on the matter forcing people to spam the forums. Yet 0.0 continues to be filled with ratting bots that seem to have been operational for month. I know I've killed a few.

-I will continue to unsub all my accounts until CCP changes there entire attitude and starts treating players like customers, not tax payers.

Flynn Fetladral
Royal Order of Security Specialists
Posted - 2011.07.02 18:49:00 - [403]
 

My thanks goes to all the CSM members who dropped everything and flew out to the ends of the earth to set this whole mess strait. Thank you CCP for the commitments you have pledged too. I've looking forward to spinning ships again. It's totally clear, more than ever, and I hope CCP you have learned this time that communication is the key. Much of this backlash, as Mittens said in the video is 'players' unfounded fears (myself included) running riot due to that lack of communication.

Now we can all get back to the serious business of Internet Spaceships. YARRRR!!

Adakis Fenikkusu
Posted - 2011.07.02 18:50:00 - [404]
 

To those referring to CCP Shadow's previous statement:

That was an edited forum post, not an official dev blog or statement.

At the time CCP Shadow may not have been privy to any discussion or plans to implement the NeX store in EVE Online.

Janos Saal
Amarr
Posted - 2011.07.02 18:50:00 - [405]
 

Originally by: Stephanie Rose
Pay to win has been in EvE ever since PLEX was introduced. If I can go buy 3500 dollars worth of GTCs, an then have 200 PLEXES to sell on the market, at 350mill a PLEX (not sure of the current price), that is 70 billion isk. I can then go to the character bizarre, buy just about ANY toon I want, an should have enough left over for a super carrier, or maybe even a titan, (no clue anymore what either cost).

Now, EvE doesn't have Pay to win? Who are you trying to convince us or yourselves? You sure as hell aren't convincing me! A had a couple choice adjectives to add about what I think about you, but I will refrain from throwing stones.

Gets real tiring when you think we are all cattle an can be herded.

Firstly I would just like to point out that you are spectacularly ****ing stupid.

Secondly, here's why:

EVERY SINGLE ITEM YOU BUY WITH YOUR PLEX MONEY WAS MADE, BOUGHT OR FOUND BY PLAYERS. THE CHARACTER YOU BUY WITH YOUR PLEX MONEY WAS TRAINED OVER TIME BY A PLAYER. EVERYTHING YOU BUY IS CREATED THROUGH THE EVE ECONOMY.
PAYING CCP $10 FOR A GOLD SCOPR WHICH IS CREATED OUT OF THIN AIR BYPASSES THE ECONOMY. THIS IS THE PROBLEM.

I hope you found this post informative. Please report to your nearest hospital for sterilization.

Stephanie Rose
Nos Exigo Effercio
Posted - 2011.07.02 18:51:00 - [406]
 

Originally by: Adakis Fenikkusu
To those referring to CCP Shadow's previous statement:

That was an edited forum post, not an official dev blog or statement.

At the time CCP Shadow may not have been privy to any discussion or plans to implement the NeX store in EVE Online.


I didn't know CCPs lawyers played EvE too.

Kellath Eladrel
Minmatar
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
Posted - 2011.07.02 18:52:00 - [407]
 

I don't understand why people are satisfied. If there ever were gameplay-affecting MTs this game would die. That was never the question.

The question to me was whether CCP would make any compromises or concessions or whether they would continue on their holy vision for profit while ignoring gameplay issues which I would prefer developers spend their time on. Turns out they will not change anything.

CQ graphical issues will not be resolved. All that fancy rendering and particle effects is right on target for 1 client at low settings. Does CCP think that this engine will work in a multiplayer environment? Do they care that this awesome new feature has made docking completely unfeasible on many machines unless you turn it off?

NeX prices will not be changed. $50 for clothing accessories is fine, they'll just flesh out the lower end of the market.

The attitude of CCP, that what they have done is perfect and does not need to be worked on, has not changed.

Vandrion
Gallente
The Collective
B O R G
Posted - 2011.07.02 18:52:00 - [408]
 

Originally by: Vile rat
Wish I could be happy with this result but I cannot.

Quote:
Game-affecting Virtual Goods: We are convinced that CCP has no plans to introduce any game-affecting virtual goods, only pure vanity items such as clothing and ship skins. We have been repeatedly assured that there are no plans for ‘gold ammo', ships which have different statistics from existing common hulls, or any other feared ‘game destroying' virtual goods or services. We have expressed our deep concern about potential grey areas that the introduction of virtual goods permits, and CCP has made a commitment to discuss any proposals that might fall into these grey areas in detail with CSM at the earliest possible stage.


While this statement is true I fear I must disagree with the overall sense of comfort in the message because I very strongly do NOT agree.

The lack of a clear concise statement declaring that they will never go in this direction is alarming, let me explain why.

Right now there is a roll out of cosmetic microtransactions which by and large the CSM, myself included, had no real issues with. I personally had no issues with it because there was an understanding that this was the far extent of what would be done. Nowhere in these statements is a determination to never cross this line into pay for non cosmetic, just an immediate desire to not pursue this goal. I can not support any MT scheme that would pave the way for even the possibility of going beyond this. I would have been satisfied if they said "we will never do this", you will notice that this statement did not occur.


I respect the fact that CCP has no plans to go beyond cosmetic and I truly feel this sentiment is sincere, but without committing to it my confidence in the future of this MT scheme is in doubt and as such I cannot support it.




Thanks for the honesty!!!!!!

Now Can someone on the CSM or with CCP please define the following statement made by CSM member Meissa Anunthiel in post 335 in this thread:

There is clear understanding on both sides of what we (actually) both consider "game-breaking" or "pay2win".

Janos Saal
Amarr
Posted - 2011.07.02 18:52:00 - [409]
 

Originally by: Stephanie Rose

I didn't know CCPs lawyers played EvE too.

There's a lot you don't know.

Adakis Fenikkusu
Posted - 2011.07.02 18:53:00 - [410]
 

Originally by: Stephanie Rose
Originally by: Adakis Fenikkusu
To those referring to CCP Shadow's previous statement:

That was an edited forum post, not an official dev blog or statement.

At the time CCP Shadow may not have been privy to any discussion or plans to implement the NeX store in EVE Online.


I didn't know CCPs lawyers played EvE too.


LOL...Again with that sort of response?

It's simple fact.

Jonathan Malcom
Gallente
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.07.02 18:53:00 - [411]
 

CCP "$1000 Pants" Zulu.

Consider it a term of endearment.

Like CCP "Emergency Reboot" Tuxford.

Or CCP "I Eat Babies" Soundwave.

Desdicado
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2011.07.02 18:54:00 - [412]
 

My 2 cents

Sorry CCP you lost me and my friends

We will NOT come back to EVE online as I see a MAJOR flaw and missuse of words from your part and I will use your own words against you in this case.

"Edited by: CCP Shadow on 24/06/2010 17:30:40
Just for clarification, the skillpoints CCP will be giving pilots to make up for the extended downtime in this case is not tied to microtransactions.

Editing to add this: We do not have plans to go microtransaction with EVE."

Almost exactly 1 year ago this was written and today we have it in one form or another...no matter if Vanity only at this point.

This was posted today by CCP:

"It is CCP‘s plan that the Noble Exchange (NeX store) will be used for the sale of vanity items only. There are no plans, and have been no plans, as per previous communication and CSM meetings, to introduce the sale of game breaking items or enhancements in the NeX store."

You continue to use the same word "plan" and I can see why you must. If you didn't you would corner yourselfs and could have an even greater problem then you seem to have today in the near future.

Me and my freinds play alot of games and I been playing online games for over 15 years now.
Whit todays standard you choose one of the two methods, either you go f2p whit stores or you go subsciptions. Doing both is just gready in most players eyes so those games often lose thier player base and dies out quickly.

If you had spent the amount of time in fixing the bugs and actually listened to what we told you for the last couple of years you wouldn't have been in this situation you as a company is today.

So my endwords goes to those I played whit, Svea Rike best Swedish corp in EVE and to Oberon Inc of Morsus Mihi thanks guys been a blast last couple of years.

/Desdicado - most of you died too my drake...so don't say they are useless :)

Stephanie Rose
Nos Exigo Effercio
Posted - 2011.07.02 18:54:00 - [413]
 

Originally by: Janos Saal
Originally by: Stephanie Rose
Pay to win has been in EvE ever since PLEX was introduced. If I can go buy 3500 dollars worth of GTCs, an then have 200 PLEXES to sell on the market, at 350mill a PLEX (not sure of the current price), that is 70 billion isk. I can then go to the character bizarre, buy just about ANY toon I want, an should have enough left over for a super carrier, or maybe even a titan, (no clue anymore what either cost).

Now, EvE doesn't have Pay to win? Who are you trying to convince us or yourselves? You sure as hell aren't convincing me! A had a couple choice adjectives to add about what I think about you, but I will refrain from throwing stones.

Gets real tiring when you think we are all cattle an can be herded.

Firstly I would just like to point out that you are spectacularly ****ing stupid.

Secondly, here's why:

EVERY SINGLE ITEM YOU BUY WITH YOUR PLEX MONEY WAS MADE, BOUGHT OR FOUND BY PLAYERS. THE CHARACTER YOU BUY WITH YOUR PLEX MONEY WAS TRAINED OVER TIME BY A PLAYER. EVERYTHING YOU BUY IS CREATED THROUGH THE EVE ECONOMY.
PAYING CCP $10 FOR A GOLD SCOPR WHICH IS CREATED OUT OF THIN AIR BYPASSES THE ECONOMY. THIS IS THE PROBLEM.

I hope you found this post informative. Please report to your nearest hospital for sterilization.


Its about buying an advantage, are you really that dumb? Pay to Win has more then one meaning, but your obviously too short sighted to comprehend.

BeanBagKing
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.07.02 18:54:00 - [414]
 

I have one concern, while I do like the total sci-fi direction Incarna is headed, many others have correctly pointed out the lack of functionality.

While the dev blog stated that a new hanger "will be replaced with an environment that will provide similar functionality", I hope CCP takes this a step farther than just similar functionality. By that I don't mean reproduce the old hanger, I mean that all previous functionality should be there. In other words, it can look different for all I care, but I don't want my shortcuts taken away. I've found, especially when trying to swap ships as quickly as possible to join a combat op, that I can't tell what ship I'm in for instance. I can't double click the background to open my cargohold, etc.

I hope CCP's dev blog addresses these issues, and most importantly at this stage, listens to any comments the players make in response to that dev blog so that they can be taken into consideration before production has started and it becomes too late.

Other than this, I'm happy to hear that there are no plans for game breaking micro-transactions, which was one of the primary concerns. I'm disappointed that the statement wasn't "there NEVER will be", but I understand that from a business perspective making a promise like that isn't possible.

I'll be looking forward to the minutes and any new blogs that get published, and I'll be resubbing.

Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.07.02 18:55:00 - [415]
 

Originally by: Mag's
Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
So it's about the "idea" that your player goes out of its pod?
Or is it about the associated performance of loading your character?

Which is it?

Both have been addressed by CCP's statement.
You're trolling, right?


the current "Disabled Incarna Door" will be replaced with an environment that will provide similar functionality and performance to the pre-Incarna Hangar.

*THAT* answers both those concerns.

The most ridiculous bit about this whole hangar argument is that *I* was the one getting all mad at :ccp: when I thought they didn't understand the whole problem with mandatory InCarna docking. I've been convinced, so please rephrase your issue in clearly defined terms so I can answer them appropriately and kill this.

Lemming Lass
Minmatar
Lemmings Online
Posted - 2011.07.02 18:56:00 - [416]
 

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
Originally by: Lemming Lass
Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel

Ship Spinning:

There's 2 things people want ship spinning back for:
1) we like to spin ships, it's fun.
2) ship spinning took less performance than the current avatar view.

CCP is going to add as a replacement for the door wallpaper that addresses both concerns.
It will not be the same old hangar view, but will be similar in terms of functionality and performance.


So, I see that it's not just CCP that misses the point.

I DON'T GIVE A FLIP ABOUT SPINNING THE SHIP.

Decanting to grab ammo is STUPID!


So it's about the "idea" that your player goes out of its pod?
Or is it about the associated performance of loading your character?

Which is it?

Both have been addressed by CCP's statement.




It is about both. But both have not been addressed. If they have, please point to where CCP's statement addressed the issue of why it makes any sense at all as far as game immersion to force a pod pilot to get out of a ship, get out of a pod and into some clothes just to grab some ammo or switch a module and then get out of the clothes, back into the pod, and back into the ship to fly again.

It's a simple thing really, and skirting around the issue and implying that if performance criteria is met then WiS will be mandatory each dock makes no sense unless there are reasons CCP think they've got to compel all players to do at least a bit of Barbie and Ken dress up time. I actually understand that desire on the part of CCP, but for the love of New Eden, find another reason than "evey dock" to get players to walk around a bit.

At this point, the only hope I have is that there's no way CCP will actually make WiS performance match pre-Incarna hanger view levels. But I bet they'll find a "close enough" point and remove the hanger stage.

Spanking Monkeys
Posted - 2011.07.02 18:57:00 - [417]
 

Quote:
We were pleased when Torfi announced that the current "Disabled Incarna Door" will be replaced with an environment that will provide similar functionality and performance to the pre-Incarna Hangar, and this environment will be available until Incarna performance is similar to pre-Incarna performance. While the final details and timelines have not been worked out, ships will once again spin all over New Eden.


is that the same soon as were used to with ccp?
is that the same soon that actually means never?

this performance issue needs addressing now, not ****ing later or soon or never as thats what soon basicly means with ccp.
8 accounts will drop to 4 and then to 2. plex time for all 8 run out in aug, if soon isnt by then, bye bye eve


Sarina Berghil
Minmatar
New Zion Judge Advocate
Yulai Federation
Posted - 2011.07.02 18:58:00 - [418]
 

Edited by: Sarina Berghil on 02/07/2011 18:58:14
Originally by: Ranka Mei

@ CCP Navigator: I hope you continue on your vision for Incarna. Like the man said in his leaked email, 10 years from now, no one's gonna give a hoot whether some whiner couldn't run Incarna on his laptop a decade ago. Personally, I think it's visually stunning, and it adds a whole new dimension to EVE.


I would love to know what CCPs vision is for Incarna and other parts of the game for that matter, if there is a vision. It all seems very random and unplanned at times.

Preferably a bit more detailed than "Full sci-fi simulation one step at a time".


How are microtransactions from Dust going to influence Eve? What gameplay perspectives do CCP envision for incarna? How will Incarna gameplay influence flying in space? Those are important questions, but questions that are dodged, maybe because CCP don't know, or maybe they are afraid to say because of possible backlash.

The reason for not telling about the NeX store until it went live seems to have been that they were afraid of backlash from the players, and see where that went.

Lucilia Mercapone
Posted - 2011.07.02 18:58:00 - [419]
 

I don't like the wiggle room 'game breaking' brings into the picture.
However I don't think special items will ever enter eve through NEX.
I could imagine that CCP keeps this wiggle room for things like faction standing or something like that. So I still have some concerns.

But:
I can tell you that this is one of the moments where we look at what our devs do and less of what they say. Razz

I think I will resubscribe my core accounts but no more 6 month or 12 month plans.

Veryez
Posted - 2011.07.02 18:58:00 - [420]
 

Quote:
The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time


Say what you want about the Blog and the video, but this line speaks volumes. It's something very important to me, in many ways it goes to the very core of EvE. EvE isn't a sprint, it's a marathon. As a player, I am passionate about EvE, and have brought quite a few others into the game. Real players don't play for 6 months, we play for years, we get EvE. This is what needed to be said, to me at least. I'm not saying that everything is well, but that this was the step needed for me to rebuild trust. It was certainly a step in the correct direction. I will watch what you do as well as what you say, but as a first step this was a good one.

Thank you to the CSM members who were able to drop their personal lives and flew to Iceland to represent us. For those who were there via video conferencing/skype thank you too. You are a credit to the community. This couldn't have been easy on you, and I for one appreciate it.

To CCP Zulu and his team, Thank you for listening to your players (through our CSM) and taking the time to understand what our issues are, for understanding our passion. CCP is a company and will do what it thinks is in its best intrests, I understand and completely accept that, but listening is hard, and your statements and video show that you did listen and I commend you for that.


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