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Lord Maldoror
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.07.06 07:16:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Tau Cabalander
Out of curiosity, when primaried and fitted for tanking, did the carrier use local repper(s) or instead fit 100% for resists and rely entirely on the other carrier for repping?



Check the middle section of the main report and also my first reply on page 1, which has a few more numbers/module details. Obviously the ideal situation is to get the enemy to shoot a 'pantheon-style' carrier (out of triage) with maximum resists and be repped by a triage carrier and then juggle that around as necessary. But sometimes the triage carrier was primed mid-cycle, and then it's a matter of using a cap-unstable fit to 'coast' out of triage with the maximum tank possible. To quote my earlier reply:

"let's assume, for example, Shani's triage carrier with 3 capital remote is repping a second Archon, Davinci, who is primed and now refitted to full tank.

3 Cap reps from Shani ---> Davinci w/DC2, 4 Hardeners overloaded, 2 Faction EANM = 56,500 dps tank.

(This includes command bonuses, etc.).

That's a big tank but the trick of course is to keep their target in low armour, to keep them shooting the right target. But as you say, what happens if they notice Shani is in triage and switch quickly to him, as indeed happened on occasion in the fight.

At that point Shani can refit to 2 reppers + 4 hardeners + DC and overload. The hard part is making sure that whilst repping Davinci, he has saved enough cap still that he can 'coast' out of triage on this new cap-burning fit. That's the hard part really - in the heat of the battle it's extremely difficult to micromanage that.

If he makes it out of triage, even on zero cap, a refitted Davinci is then ready to cap him up and rep him.

(Note: in that situation shani would have 2 local reppers instead of all resists, so the tank during those minutes of cap-burning & coasting would be less than 56,500, probably more in the region of 40,000. So it still makes it a dangerous business if primed very early in the 5min cycle, hence the importance of keeping people keen on a specific target. Risky business). "


Lord Maldoror
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.07.06 07:18:00 - [62]
 

Edited by: Lord Maldoror on 06/07/2011 10:53:50
Originally by: Fitz VonHeise
I should add that I applaud your openness to putting into your report tactics that many Alliances would never talk about as others obviously will read this and possibly use these tactics even against your group.


I always try and explain something of what's going on from our POV in my reports and videos. Ultimately, you have to respect your enemies in that they're smart enough to figure out what's going on if you have a good fight. In this particular case I don't think there's any particular secret 'formula' - we've shown capital refitting in combat as far back as Clarion Call 1 in 2008, after all. And the staggered cycle triage principle is shown in Ironclad. It was just an example of the carrier pilots doing some hardcore micromanagement.

But even if there was a 'formula' I'd probably share it anyway, after we'd had some use of it. People can reverse engineer quickly. More importantly, though, part of what keeps a group of players coming back over time is a tactical narrative. If others learn things you do, or counter them, you have to learn new things.

For example, at the end of Clarion Call 1, we used a triage carrier to force an escalation of more caps to kill it, and then dread dropped those caps at our optimals, etc. The last fight of Clarion Call 2 features someone doing exactly that to us - baiting us with a triage carrier, having us drop caps and then heavily counter-dropping us. Luckily the caps we'd dropped did something they hadn't seen before.

So there's an ever-evolving story there, and often a lot of symmetry in terms of what you face. It forces one to try and stay ahead of the curve. Guardians are another example - at first when we fielded 20 Guardians and 20 T3 (when T3 were brand new), people thought it was rather indulgent (and almost unsporting - I can sympathise). Perhaps it's still excessive but we're no longer in Roman orgy and grapes territory - lots of gangs indulge. And so we've gone from 'Ironclad' Guardian fits to Kaboose fit to whatever is next. It's like German tank development (sorry, too much WoT).

Finally, a lot of pvp alliances share their combat stories to one degree or another. Yes, it's flattering to see tactics adopted - but I think there's also a sort of unspoken responsibility to celebrate combat in Eve. A lot of things get said and sometimes I think it's easy to forget why people passionately/angrily want to 'protect' the game in the first place.

Flycksie
Minmatar
FREE GATES
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2011.07.06 14:17:00 - [63]
 

11/10. Awesome read, well done and best of luck in the future. Looking forward to reading similar reports.

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.07.06 14:47:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: raukosen
They said they refit to their Pantheon fit which has no local reppers

Mind explaining for the carrier noob like me what a Pantheon fit is?

I've read all the forums a ton, and I've only recently seen a few mentions of Pantheon, but no definition of what it is.


Batharis
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.06 15:33:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Tau Cabalander

Mind explaining for the carrier noob like me what a Pantheon fit is?

I've read all the forums a ton, and I've only recently seen a few mentions of Pantheon, but no definition of what it is.




http://eve-search.com/search/pantheon about 30 pages of threads there.

But quickest way: Clarion Call 2: Pantheon

Borun Tal
Minmatar
Space Pods Inc
Posted - 2011.07.06 17:42:00 - [66]
 

That, sir, was a decent thread. Well done. Smile

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.07.06 18:45:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Batharis
http://eve-search.com/search/pantheon about 30 pages of threads there.

But quickest way: Clarion Call 2: Pantheon

The search phrase "pantheon carrier" is more relevant, and returns only 3 pages. Posts from people with names like "Pantheon Lea" are otherwise also returned, as are unrelated uses of the word.

Non-Archon Pantheons is probably the most concise reference:

Originally by: Aamrr
(For those who don't already know, a Pantheon carrier is a carrier fitting that emphasizes resists and remote rep at the expense of local repair and capacitor generation. In this configuration, a pair or triad of egress-rigged talisman-implanted Archons trade capital energy transfers and send them out to the fleet. The rest of the fleet then accepts one of the extra transfers to run their reps. Kudos to Rooks & Kings putting it together.)


Fearless Worthless
Posted - 2011.07.06 18:48:00 - [68]
 

Edited by: Fearless Worthless on 06/07/2011 18:58:13
Originally by: Lord Maldoror

There was a fight recently (the report is somewhere on FHC)


Where's this?

nvm lmgify: http://failheap-challenge.com/

Fearless Worthless
Posted - 2011.07.06 18:51:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: linkeleo

...(someone else:)With 3x CPR II in the lows, 4x CR in the mids, 3x CCCs, strong mindflood and CR10 + CC10 implants I'm just getting +736.1. What am I missing? Smile...

one capacitor power relay. archon has 7 lowslots



When you guys refit during fights are you also refitting the rigs?

Fearless Worthless
Posted - 2011.07.06 18:55:00 - [70]
 

Edited by: Fearless Worthless on 06/07/2011 19:06:27
Originally by: Telvani
Please tell me you are working on another video, loved the last two and this sounds incredible.


Could someone link to these?

(again google: http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1342627/page/1)

Hopefully they have commentary (even if on a secondary audio track, like the kil2 vids)

Of course, this whole post / thread is fantastic. :) CCP should push this out to the mmo news sites and whatnot. :)

Fearless Worthless
Posted - 2011.07.06 18:57:00 - [71]
 

How do you guys deal with having a publicly identifiable FC? Did the enemy know that your FC was in a BS? Couldn't they have taken him off the field?

I've heard of putting them in more tanky ships (supers/command ships etc). My normal experience is from RVB where they often choose arranged fights and just agree to target FCs last.

Hope you don't mind a flood of questions on this thread but consider it making it more new player friendly or something. :)


Sekk Aryn
Posted - 2011.07.06 20:59:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Lord Maldoror

But even if there was a 'formula' I'd probably share it anyway, after we'd had some use of it. People can reverse engineer quickly. More importantly, though, part of what keeps a group of players coming back over time is a tactical narrative. If others learn things you do, or counter them, you have to learn new things.

... (snip)

Finally, a lot of pvp alliances share their combat stories to one degree or another. Yes, it's flattering to see tactics adopted - but I think there's also a sort of unspoken responsibility to celebrate combat in Eve. A lot of things get said and sometimes I think it's easy to forget why people passionately/angrily want to 'protect' the game in the first place.


RnK is the reason I'm back into EVE after taking a couple of years off. Your Pantheon video made me completely fall in love with EVE and PvP as well (had been a pure carebear prior to watching it). Ironclad set the hook.

I'm in Uni now, studying basic PvP because of you guys and having a blast. I always tell my friends who will listen "Someday I want to fly with these guys. They get this game."

This thread gives me renewed confidence in that position. o7

Do you guys do anything smaller than large-gang and capital gang tactical development?

raukosen
Posted - 2011.07.07 01:38:00 - [73]
 

What's a "Kaboose" Guardian fit? :X

Mesh Marillion
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.07.07 08:42:00 - [74]
 

Edited by: Mesh Marillion on 07/07/2011 08:44:28
Edited by: Mesh Marillion on 07/07/2011 08:44:06
The Kaboose is our guardian fit for fleets that don't use triage (occasionally we combine both but that's a rather rare situation). It has basicly a stronger tank than any other guardian fit around in exchange using only one energy transfer. Its not really a secret given we have lost quite a few over the time - the deadspace repper is optional ofc.

[Guardian, Kaboose]
Damage Control II
Shadow Serpentis Armor Kinetic Hardener
Shadow Serpentis Armor Thermic Hardener
True Sansha Armor EM Hardener
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

10MN Afterburner II
Prototype ECCM I Radar Sensor Cluster

Large 'Regard' I Power Projector
Centum A-Type Medium Remote Armor Repair System
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Large Remote Armor Repair System II
Medium 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I



Regarding the smaller gang stuff: some of our members do it, but most of our activities as an alliance evolve around fleets of 15+.

Dr Geiger
Posted - 2011.07.07 13:47:00 - [75]
 

Not sure I can take anymore.

Leaked mails from CCP CEO,
the monoclegate scandal,
Protests in Jita,
CSM called to Iceland for emergency talks.

And now a readable and entertaining battle report on Eve-O.
What has happened to this game.

Thx for the read. Just like your vids I was not disapointed.
Please keep it up.

Mahoosiv
Ardent Spirits
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2011.07.07 15:06:00 - [76]
 

Thank you.

That was both entertaining and informative - the elephant in a skysc****r analogy summed up that event beautifully.


Azurun Li
Posted - 2011.07.07 18:57:00 - [77]
 

Thank you for the excellent read. Loved it.

Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.07.08 07:38:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Fearless Worthless
How do you guys deal with having a publicly identifiable FC? Did the enemy know that your FC was in a BS? Couldn't they have taken him off the field?

I've heard of putting them in more tanky ships (supers/command ships etc). My normal experience is from RVB where they often choose arranged fights and just agree to target FCs last.

Hope you don't mind a flood of questions on this thread but consider it making it more new player friendly or something. :)




Guardians usually have LM on their watch list (I know I always have him locked when I fly a guardian).
As you can see during the fights, we don't frequently lose ships, and seeing how we keep an eye on him, he's less likely to die than the others we have to lock up and watch the broadcasts for.

However, when he does die, we have another number of FCs in fleet who step up to the plate. Should those be busy with other things in fleet (piloting triage, handling the logistics group, monitoring cap levels of ennemy capital ships, etc.), any one of the people in fleet is susceptible to take up target calling (it doesn't happen often, but it does happen) or any of the other necessary tasks. The average "grunt" in R&K is expected to be able to handle such things as occasions arise so it doesn't turn into a rout when one of the usual key people die.

Fearless Worthless
Posted - 2011.07.08 08:41:00 - [79]
 

Edited by: Fearless Worthless on 08/07/2011 08:42:22
does ship scanner report cap % back?

Thanks for the response!

Mfume Apocal
Minmatar
Origin.
Black Legion.
Posted - 2011.07.08 09:53:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Fearless Worthless
does ship scanner report cap % back?


yes

Rhamnousia
Caldari
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.07.09 09:42:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Mfume Apocal
Originally by: Fearless Worthless
does ship scanner report cap % back?


yes


actually, no. it does not. it shows you what mods the scanned ship has fitted, and current/total capacitor, in absolute. not percentage.

claire xxx
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.07.09 18:11:00 - [82]
 

Lord Maladoror,

This was one of the absolute best write-ups I've ever read. (I particularly enjoyed the elephant crashing through the floor. That analogy had me in stitches.) I look forward to more from you.

~Claire

Quigon Jimm
Toxic Shokk
Posted - 2011.07.11 18:22:00 - [83]
 

fantastic write up of what sounds like a real fun fight, RnK never fails to deliver Twisted Evil

yopparai
Posted - 2011.07.11 18:47:00 - [84]
 

Great battle report; Where do I sign up for the Rooks & Kings Fan club?

Yopp

Kenerian
The Clean Up Crew
Posted - 2011.07.13 04:39:00 - [85]
 

Such an awesome read, I hope to see more awesome videos like Clarion Call 2 soon.

Sigras
Gallente
Conglomo
Posted - 2011.08.28 21:27:00 - [86]
 

dude, where is the video of this . . . dont tell me in two hours nobody bothered to turn on fraps . . . seriously . . . I need to see the video of this.

VegasMirage
The Scope
Posted - 2011.09.01 16:14:00 - [87]
 

Edited by: VegasMirage on 01/09/2011 16:16:05
Great write up and Amazing Showmanship!!!

You must have multitasking trained up to level 5 irl

FeralShadow
NME1
Posted - 2011.09.03 20:15:00 - [88]
 

Amazing write-up. This has given me many awesome and evil ideas Very Happy

Fox T'Lar
The Illuminatii
Mildly Intoxicated
Posted - 2011.09.04 02:29:00 - [89]
 

F'n A! That was a brilliant write up. I'm glad I read this at work and put everything else on hold Very Happy

Shaalira D'arc
Posted - 2011.09.05 19:35:00 - [90]
 

Edited by: Shaalira D''arc on 05/09/2011 19:34:50
This is a good story, made better by great writing. Thanks for sharing, and props to all the players involved in the battle.


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