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Lord Maldoror
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.07.02 07:25:00 - [1]
 

NB: LOG IN AND ENABLE IMAGES! - THIS REPORT HAS LOTS OF IN-LINE SCREENSHOTS

This is an extended version of an FHC battle report from earlier this week. I plan to post more battle reports here in future, too. The Warfare And Tactics part is posted at the end.

Do not infer from the title that carriers should be regularly fighting supers. We sometimes tank two supercarriers with a single triage Archon but usually that is the only time the ratio goes favourably to a carrier (when not for the purpose of escalation). However, this fight involves a small number of carriers against a larger numbers of supercarriers. Even so, I don't intend this as an ode against the power of supercapitals (even if some of those who despise them may reference it so). I use them too; I don't mind them; I just the play the cards that are dealt.

Instead, think of this more as a tribute to the malleability of ships, something often forgotten when we speak in absolute terms of 'fits', as if a 'fit' is an irconcast, unchanging thing from the beginning to the end of a fight. It's also a sometimes bizarre series of events, far from the shores of our normal timezone, and I hope the report communicates at least a little of the fight's flavour.

Lord Maldoror
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.07.02 07:26:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Lord Maldoror on 02/07/2011 07:31:02

Two Archons Tanking 4 Motherships, 2 dreads, 2 carriers and support? Check
Two hour fight? Check
Parachuting elephant? Check. No, really. Check.

But before all that, I should go back to the beginning. Although we base outside Aridia (and have done since late 2009ish), the area remains fairly blue. In fact blues have their own blues.


One such group is Purge Alliance, a smaller entity living in Jasson. Purge had a tower coming out of reinforced at 02:43. The report was that the tower had been reinforced by a mix of Celestial Tribesman caps and Morsus Mihi supercaps. Celestial Tribesman are a local group who are hostile to most of the local entities and Morsus Mihi of course need no introduction.

Being a primarily EU timezone alliance, 02:43 on a Monday is somewhat tricky so after having repped another POS a few hours previously, our numbers went down to 12 people on Teamspeak. I must confess I would have been entirely happy for a no-show at that hour (nearly 4am my time) but I'd promised to lead a fleet for the tower.

After getting our own eyes into the system, we found Purge Alliance on the tower, repping it. It's worth noting at this point that we communicated to Purge via a mutual contact on our TS. However, this would best be characterised as a sort of Madame Blavatsky link to the spirit world. Even if the UN tasked a crack team of scientists to investigate the connection between my messages forwarded and their actions undertaken, I'm not sure they'd establish a statistically causal correlation.

Although they eventually win over my affection, I feel it's important to establish the nature of our communication to Purge which we will thus henceforth refer to as The Void. To be fair to them, though, we told our mutual contact not to reveal to them who was coming to help them, and simply to refer to 'backup' (which probably doesn't fill people with confidence).

We were told that Purge had around 15 people, though Jozzie informed me there were only 4-5 repping ships at the POS.

At this point, a Moros from Morsus Mihi warped in at 80km from the POS, presumably as bait. Eager to get things started, I sent a message into the unknowing depths of The Void for Purge to go forth and tackle him. Unfortunately, it transpired that the Purge combat ships were in a different system. So the Spirit Gods were not kind and rewarded us instead with a mere orbit change of their few repping scimitars on the tower.

Whilst this was unfolding, a Morsus Mihi scout found our 10 battleships (6 Abaddons, 2 Megas, 2 Geddons) and Loki sitting on a titan, with our two Archons. We'd been informed that two Mihi supercarriers had helped Celestial Tribesman reinforce the Purge POS, so this was a good sign that some sort of trap was ready.


Back at the POS, the Moros had warped out and back in again. Some Purge combat ships were now assembled in the POS. The Moros, 60km out, was soon reported going into siege and hitting the tower.

Shortly thereafter, Celestial Tribesman warped in a Naglfar, a Chimera and assorted battleships and battlecruisers, at close range to the tower. The Naglfar went into siege too.

Jozzie suggested we bring Purge out to point the Chimera and we called into The Void for this to happen. The Gods looked unkindly on our request, and a lonely Scorpion was sent forth from the POS. He died rather fast. He also didn't have any tackle. After a second ship ended with a similar fate, we realised we couldn't effect the en masse move & tackle that Jozzie envisaged, so I informed The Void to keep them inside the POS and we'd just jump them ourselves and see what happens.

Lord Maldoror
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.07.02 07:27:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Lord Maldoror on 02/07/2011 07:32:02
Since we expected a trap, my plan was to rep the initial damage with our archons out of triage, if possible, and have them approach the shield. Although the tower was incapped, it could at least provide a retreat if needed (and we had been given the password).

3..2..1.. Cyno Down. Some of their support warped as we loaded grid but we were able to tackle the Chimera, along with some Ravens, some Drakes and a few other battleships.

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I'd been concerned that if their Chimera went into triage our eleven battleships might lack damage and neuting. However, they started going down quickly and their Chimera (who stayed un-triaged) was unable to rep them significantly.

Since we didn't have our usual Bhaalgorn crew, we switched to the Naglfar since I wanted to put him under pressure to prevent him cap-coasting out and jumping at the end of siege (we had no Heavy Interdictor to hold him, either).

With the Naglfar burning his cap fast and down to half-shield, I decided it probably wasn't a trap, and gave instruction for Purge to leave the tower and tackle the rail Moros 70km away. This would be their whole duty in the fight, I declared, to hang on to this Moros no matter what unfolded.

And I was pleased I said that, since things immediately did unfold. An Onyx warped in at close range and dropped a cyno. We waited.... Hel... okay, we expected a Hel. Second Hel... Aeon.. Nyx. This wasn't so good since in addition to the present caps on the field they'd now added four supercarriers (Hel, Hel, Nyx, Aeon) and we only had two Archons.

We started approaching the shield. I briefly considered bouncing a triage Archon back and forth across the shield edge with two MWD-bs either side. However, with less than a dozen BS on the field, this wasn't really very practical (and would leave us with virtually no damage outside). With a big swarm of fighter bombers approaching, the situation was somewhat concerning. Their support was starting to come back in too, the first of which was a previously unseen Machariel. I decided he'd probably turned up to get a shiny ship onto some Rooks and Kings mails, so I decided to ignore returning to the POS and melt him:

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He popped before his rep could land.

Still, more support was coming back and with both Archons having to stay out to rep tackled Navy Geddons, the situation wasn't ideal. Davinci's Archon was up against four supercarriers, 2 dreads, 2 Chimeras and whatever else they had on grid. No shortage of fighter bombers, either:

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I immediately approached Davinci, took 8 smartbombs from his array and started refitting:

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This done, I took up smartbombing duty next to him, though as you can see on the Watchlist he was 20-30% armour.

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At this point, the hostiles probably expected him to die.

Lord Maldoror
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.07.02 07:27:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Lord Maldoror on 02/07/2011 07:33:09
But he didn't die.


Two hours later, one of them said something to the effect of "so what the hell was that?"

Well, the hell in question, worked something like this:


1) So initially Davinci's Archon is primed, and Shani reps him (out of triage).

Davinci <----- Shani

(prime) (rep)



2) Davinci refits his carrier on Shani for full Pantheon-style resist tank. With Davinci already 20% armour, Shani goes into triage. The refit mitigates the big alpha of the bombers and allows Shani to control the situation and keep him 'low' to maintain their interest, without risking him being alpha'd through structure by the 80 fighter bombers, dreads, etc. In case Shani is primed too early in his cycle, Rham gets in position to bounce him into the POS shield.


Davinci <----- Shani

(pantheon refit) (triage)




3) Hostiles eventually realise that Shani is playing with them, and switch to him. But he's nearing the end of his triage cycle and can use a non-cap stable, higher peak-tanking setup to cap-coast out of triage and be repped & re-filled by the refitted Davinci, who is now normal triage fit again.

Davinci -----> Shani
(refit triage) (end cycle/refit resist)



And so it continues. The carriers stay up. Fighter bombers now get pulled, normal fighters come out and start going onto the support. A particularly timely series of remote ECM bursts from the motherships send Never Convicted into structure but the carriers catch him just in time:

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The Naglfar soon perished and we switched onto a Chimera.

Suddenly, Gold starts shouting. "He warped! He ***ing warped!"

At first I assume he must be talking about a supercarrier. I'm about to tell him that this is not a bad thing, since we have no HICs anyway and I'll be most happy to hold grid. Then I realise he's talking about the Moros. And then I remembered that I'd tasked Purge to hold the Moros, all some 60km away. THE MOROS HAS LEFT SIEGE AND WARPED.

Homer (the Greek one) tells us that when Odysseus skirted the land of the Sirens, he was tied to the mast and the sailors were told to keep going NO MATTER WHAt and had their ears plugged with beeswax to help in that goal. It's a model of what Purge should have done but unfortunately they took off the blinkers, looked at the battlefield, saw the numbers of Rooks and Kings guys, compared it to the number of hostile supercaps, the Tribe caps, the other stuff, and decided to pull range of the Moros who dropped siege and warped off.

I may have raged a little (though not at uncouth volume) and muttered something presumably incomprehensible about Circe and Ithaca, and then sent Purge to all dock in station and stay safe until further instruction. I wholeheartedly forgive them now and am certain they will win Penelope's love when they return to the shores.

Lord Maldoror
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.07.02 07:27:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Lord Maldoror on 02/07/2011 07:34:32
Back to the fight.

Okay, so the Moros had warped out. But lots of other ships kept warping in. Typhoon, Scorpion, Hyperion, Falcon, another Typhoon... it just kept going, and to their credit, some Celestial Tribesmen kept coming back in new ships.

However, with the hostiles unable to get even a single kill, they had become so distracted with trying different targets that they lost all focus on repping support, so whenever a sub-cap came in range, it was soon killed off. One fellow lost five.

In fact, this became rather enjoyable and I started focussing on how to prolong the fight. The supercaps were now aligning and although we had two Chimeras pointed, I knew that if the ECM bursts from the SCs hit well, they'd be able to get all remaining caps out.

Enter Agent Xer0.

Having got home from a night shift, he logged on to Teamspeak and seeing a dozen guys in channel, asked if there was a gang of some kind.

"s'up? you guys got a little roam going?"

"Agent! We're in BS and we've got Davinci and Shani in carriers. Hop in a carrier, put a Devoter in it. We're going to drop you next to some Morsus Mihi supers, then Gold is going to board the hic from your carrier, store his BS, point a Nyx, and thus force the other caps and support to keep fighting us".

"Cool".

I don't know whether Agent simply has blind faith or misplaced affection but he didn't question any of it.

Skitt drops cyno and Agent's Archon jumps in next to their supers. Gold short-warps in, boards the Devoter, and points the Nyx. Result.

However, Agent's carrier is standard triage fit and he cyno's in well out of refitting range from Davinci and Shani. Although there are now three Archons instead of two, I am aware that I've created a potential risky situation by bringing him in out of refit range (which we had to do to point a super, else the Devoter Gold boarded would have been too far).

The supercarriers and hostile caps immediately decide to prime the new arrival, which is fairly logical since they've tried shooting pretty much everything else twice over. Agent's Archon is immediately volleyed to half armour and goes as low as 10%. Shani and Davinci both go into triage to keep him up (both refitting to full triage rep), and he holds on low armour. Although we've brought an extra ship in, we've thus created a mis-step in the cross-triaging refitting pattern, and thus a window where I was concerned the hostiles could turn around the fight.

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Luckily, Shani and Davinci kept them keen on Agent by keeping him low armour, which was no easy feat considering that the resists were low and even a slight miscalculation would see him volleyed through structure.

By the time they switched off Agent, the window had passed and all three carriers were in-step along the same lines of the earlier Davinci-Shani combination.

Lord Maldoror
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.07.02 07:28:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Lord Maldoror on 02/07/2011 07:35:49
Over the years the regular triage work has passed from myself onto a newer generation of triage pilots (I rarely get to fly caps on Alazais now). I can't imagine a better combination of cap pilots for a job like this than Agent, Davinci and Shani. Alas Link was asleep, else we'd have had all the original second generation RnK triage pilots in action.

A triage carrier tanking just two SCs we've often done before. But seeing a smaller group of carriers tank a larger group of supercarriers, in addition to everything else and keeping the fleet alive, was an impressive show and they pulled every trick in the book.

With hostile support continuing to die, a Chimera tank breaking and without having killed a single one of our ships, the enemy fleet probably knew the fight had gone against them, and were preparing to extract. We still only had one HIC on the field and called on local blues, Mayhem. and FWA, to bring HICs to help hold one of the supers.

Artemis Septum of Mayhem. answered the call and started heading our way with three HICS. A few more RnK guys had also tuned in and come to the fight, including a particularly useful Dramiel from alexreborn, which hunted down Falcons.

Enemy carriers began warping off (they were too spread for us to hold points) and we decided the time was right to call Purge. back in.

Soon after, Artemis and her guys arrived on grid and pointed a Hel. All the hostile supercarriers now logged off, and we put out a general invitation for blues to charge in from the hills and tuck in.

I refitted my smartbombs for neuts:

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A hostile Nidhoggur warped in around this time but perished soon after.

Although enemies often try and make us jump supers to kill logged/self-destructing caps as bait, I was in a mood to add to the silliness of a bizarre fight and had Gold jump in his Leviathon to give us a serious source of DPS onto the Hel, who started taking good damage.

Moments after jumping in the Leviathon, a blue Hyperion made a beeline for him, put on his MWD and crashed into him. Planned bump-cyno? Residual Caldari hatred? (Link was a asleep, mind) ****-eyed piloting? We'll never know. What we can do, in the best traditions of Sir Patrick Moore, is track the path of the comet across the night sky. His trademark monocle is suitably topical, too.

Initially the comet/Hyperion is sitting on the fresh wreck of a Nidhoggur. It can now go two ways, either to the right, to get in blaster range of the hostile Hel, or to the left, toward the friendly titan:

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After some consideration, the comet veers left at full speed:

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Planetary bodies collide and the titan is thoroughly bumped out of alignment. Madness. And somewhere, far away on the Isle of Man, Eldareth must have cursed in his sleep.

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Lord Maldoror
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.07.02 07:28:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Lord Maldoror on 02/07/2011 07:37:03
With four minutes left on the timer, an FWA Aeon (blue) jumped in as well, which was very welcome and helped accelerate things.

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Just as the shield tanking Hel started entering armour, a new cyno went down in the middle of our fleet. Morsus Mihi backup? A last stand from Celestial Tribesmen? Third party? We waited.. but nothing happened.

Then, suddenly, in the same second the Hel disappeared (log off timer up) an Erebus from Black Legion appeared in it's place. No support, no other caps, just an Erebus.

The time between the Hel disappearing and the Erebus appearing was so close that you can still see my Abaddon's neuts in cycle on the (now absent) Hel:

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"Erebus", deadpanned Shani.

One of the hic pilots spoke up on comms. "The Hel's disappeared, what should we tackle?".

And then the Erebus proceeded to emergency warp off. We later discovered that he'd had a gang with him but clicked jump instead of bridge. I can best describe the effect like this: imagine a big social gathering in glass ceiling skysc****r. There's a loud crash from above. A pink elephant falls into the middle of the room, dusts off the broken glass with his trunk, and sheepishly exchanges glances with the baffled onlookers. Then, before anyone can say anything, the floor directly underneath him cracks and he plunges down to some lower level. Without a further word the onlookers go back to the party, albeit the waiters having to navigate the elephant-sized hole.

He had, though, logged during the jump so we had no means to tackle him anyway - he'd just disappear after 120 seconds, and indeed he quickly vanished from scan. Ironically, I was later killed by their gang, sent to investigate the fate of the elephant, when I warped unscouted to a gate.

Truly bizarre.

At any rate, the fight was won, the grid was held and the Purge POS quickly repped. It's a credit to the cap pilots that in the main fight we didn't lose a single ship, although Rham and Never_Convicted went to structure. Everyone had to work hard though - with those numbers, against that firepower, you have to make every ship count.

There had in fact been another tower coming out of RF too, in Ertoo, belonging to FWA and reinforced by Test. A Test scout appeared on grid during the fight and they were reported in Hier, close by. But evidently finding this madness going on here, they decided to leave the other POS alone and it was repped also. Saved by proxy, in fact.

I would like to say that I was impressed with Celestial Tribesmen's determination and it was a pleasure to do battle with MM, who were very graceful in local afterwards.

Spare a thought for Purge too, who actually seem like a good bunch of people and probably saw our gang, saw what we got counter-dropped by, and assumed we were going to die in a fire. After all the hostiles were dead or logged, I called into The Void to wish them well, although this may simply make it rain in Uruguay.



Since we didn't lose a ship in the main fight there's no proper battle summary but nontheless:

http://www.rooksandkings.com/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=28290

Lord Maldoror
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.07.02 07:29:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Lord Maldoror on 02/07/2011 07:40:45
Warfare And Tactics

Since this is a warfare and tactics forum, I'm going to dwell for a moment on a key point of the fight (and make good on the promise of extra content).

While comparisons to real historical combat are inherently silly, let's run with one for a minute. Some people say that after Manfred von Richthofen's headwound in the summer of 1917, he suffered from mild mental issues that led to the 'target fixation' attributed to his death nearly a year later. If target fixation can happen to the Red Baron, it can presumably happen to anyone.

In the midst of all the bizarre events of this particular battle, I think the key moment was the introduction of our third carrier, Agent's Archon. It's a good example of more sometimes being less. On the surface of it, if they can't break two, then adding a third is surely awesome, especially flown by someone like Agent.

But because he had to be dropped dangerously outside refitting range of the other two carriers (so that Goldsnake could board the HIC he was carrying, and point a Supercarrier), it meant we had to simultaneously put the other two carriers in triage with fits that could sustain bursts of 3 capital remote reps each, to tank his lower resists against the incoming damage. Obviously that breaks the pattern.

In that moment, we were out of step for 2-3 minutes. Luckily the hostiles were fixated on killing him. After an hour of trying and killing nothing, it must be hard to switch away from a capital on the edge of structure. Somehow Shani and Davinci kept him exactly there and so they kept trying. The window thus quickly passed and by the time they switched, we had re-established (and indeed boosted) the pattern by weaving a third carrier into it, thus ensuring the fight.

However, if you think about it, you could just as well accuse me of target fixation, too. I didn't want the fight to end, and I knew that if a Supercarrier was pointed, they'd have to keep fighting for a time. Asking for Agent to refit to full resist (Pantheon-style lows) before jumping would have made more sense, given that they'd surely test the tank of a new arrival. In turn, that would have put less strain on the existing system. Instead, I told him to just grab the nearest HIC and jump, since I saw some of them aligning out and gambled that the fight was mentally too far gone for them to seize a window of opportunity.

So really we're both equally guilty of it: them of being unable to give up on a target and, for my part, being unable to give up on a fight. It's interesting that despite everything going on, some of the key moments in good fights are almost unseen. It was just a two minute window of danger in a two hour fight and a gamble that someone isn't paying close attention. That unseen narrative, as an FC, is what keeps me in the game, whether I lose or win.

Lord Maldoror
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.07.02 07:30:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Lord Maldoror on 02/07/2011 07:58:56
After the fight I considered whether I could have gone with the T3/logistic blob which we're also well known for. Clearly such a group, on a vastly lower sig, is less vulnerable to being hotdropped by capitals. However, for the numbers we jumped in with, this would have meant only 6 or 7 T3 and 4 Guardians, or some variation of that ratio (given a Damnation or command legion is also needed). Over a long fight, too, there would have been significant threat to a small number of Guardians: falcons, ECM burst (Guardian lock is slower than triage to recover), potentially 120+ drones hitting them plus support, etc. Added to which, there simply wouldn't have been enough punch to break the hostile's rep, since they would have had more capitals repping than we would have had t3 ships doing damage.

In the end we did have the right tools for the job, even if Shani, Davinci and Agent had to work them to the bone. And to some degree, we all had to. In situations like that one ship has to fill many roles if you don't have enough ships to fill the static roles needed, ships must become malleable, fluid things. I changed my fit three times (dps, smartbombing, neuting) and I was just in a humble Abaddon.

Finally, there has been a lot of concern regarding the direction of Eve lately. Our CSM member, Meissa Anunthiel, is in Iceland right now at the hastily convened meeting and will hopefully return with good news. Quite aside from the combat, given the collection of bizarre events in the fight, and the fact that none of them taken alone is even out of the ordinary on an average fleet night, I can only say that there always is an awesome, bewildering world out there, brimming with skill and fail, rage and affection, and I hope it never ends.

Nur AlHuda
Amarr
Callide Vulpis
Posted - 2011.07.02 08:12:00 - [10]
 

Very well written i must say. Only im suprised about the decision to show up and help Purge. Because well....But i think it was more for the possible cap kills and fun then actual help. Some people would go mental if they would have such allies.

So all in all it seems like it was awesome battle with plan well executed.

Jamradar
Minmatar
Autocannons Anonymous
Posted - 2011.07.02 08:29:00 - [11]
 

that was a pretty ****ing awesome read.
That's $15 well spent into 2 hours of fighting right there.

Vordak Kallager
Minmatar
Autocannons Anonymous
Posted - 2011.07.02 08:48:00 - [12]
 

Awesome report. Hope you got some FRAPS of this for a future RnK video.

Mutnin
Amarr
Mutineers
Posted - 2011.07.02 09:53:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Mutnin on 02/07/2011 11:03:02
Nice battle report, would be better if you guys make one of your vids out of thew fight. Very Happy


edit..

It's a shame that the SC was able to do what they seem to do best and that's logoffski once they realize their at risk of losing their ship. Perhaps the best ever nerf would be to not change the EW immunity or damage output of SC's but to reduce their HP.

If they are intended to be destroyers of capitol ships why not give make them more like the frigate class Destroyers and have a lot of firepower with out a lot of tank. Make them have to apply a bit of risk of actually losing their SC to something other than a SC blob.

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.02 10:13:00 - [14]
 

Good writeup

Bantros
Noir.
Posted - 2011.07.02 12:34:00 - [15]
 

Best thread I've read in Warfare & Tactics

Nosenhojh
Excrutiating Dirge
Merciless.
Posted - 2011.07.02 13:48:00 - [16]
 

Epic writeup, some genuinely clever and creative piloting, very cool to see Cool

Arch Widowmaker
Cry Wolf.
Posted - 2011.07.02 13:55:00 - [17]
 

Great read, really pro :)

Irrationality
Posted - 2011.07.02 14:49:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Mutnin
Edited by: Mutnin on 02/07/2011 11:03:02
Nice battle report, would be better if you guys make one of your vids out of thew fight. Very Happy


edit..

It's a shame that the SC was able to do what they seem to do best and that's logoffski once they realize their at risk of losing their ship. Perhaps the best ever nerf would be to not change the EW immunity or damage output of SC's but to reduce their HP.

If they are intended to be destroyers of capitol ships why not give make them more like the frigate class Destroyers and have a lot of firepower with out a lot of tank. Make them have to apply a bit of risk of actually losing their SC to something other than a SC blob.


Or simply disallow disappearing when tackled.

Combine that with a restriction of not being able to use Fighter Bombers in lowsec (You don't bash any structures there with Bombers anyway) and SCs are perfectly fine.

Loraine Gess
Posted - 2011.07.02 14:49:00 - [19]
 

Nice write-up, although I would seriously reconsider your relationship with the void.

Dallenovic
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2011.07.02 17:34:00 - [20]
 

This has to be the best thing I've read in ages, and props to you man, and your lads.

Love what u lot have been doing with triage carriers and cycling in/out

Wish u had the super kill, sounds like u frickin deserved it!

Zeerover
Wolfsbrigade
Posted - 2011.07.02 20:07:00 - [21]
 

Best thread on these forums in ages. Thank you for sharing!

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.02 20:59:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Furb Killer on 02/07/2011 21:02:30
Edited by: Furb Killer on 02/07/2011 21:00:40
Question, why didnt their supers simply primary the triage carrier as soon as it went triage. I can easily understand they missed it the first cycle, and then attacked the triaging carrier at wrong moment for second cycle, but you would expect that after that they would watch when a carrier entered triage and primaried him.


And other question, maybe i missed it, but at which range were their (super) caps from your two archons? Did they bother with neuting the triage carrier?



Quote:
Or simply disallow disappearing when tackled.

Combine that with a restriction of not being able to use Fighter Bombers in lowsec (You don't bash any structures there with Bombers anyway) and SCs are perfectly fine.

Haha, no...
They are ridiculously overpowered, even more in low sec. While agro should simply continue even after you log off (so you need 15 minutes of not being attacked before you dissapear if you log with agro), that also isnt a solution to the actual problem. Sure it will allow some more SCs to be ganked, but it doesnt change that they are ridiculously overpowered.

Chris Audacity
Posted - 2011.07.02 22:45:00 - [23]
 

Top notch write up, love reading reports wrote with this much detail. I'm sure its actions like these which attract players to this game.

Lord Maldoror
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.07.02 23:00:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Furb Killer
Question, why didnt their supers simply primary the triage carrier as soon as it went triage. I can easily understand they missed it the first cycle, and then attacked the triaging carrier at wrong moment for second cycle, but you would expect that after that they would watch when a carrier entered triage and primaried him.


Well let's assume, for example, Shani's triage carrier with 3 capital remote is repping a second Archon, Davinci, who is primed and now refitted to full tank.

3 Cap reps from Shani ---> Davinci w/DC2, 4 Hardeners overloaded, 2 Faction EANM = 56,500 dps tank.

(This includes command bonuses, etc.).

That's a big tank but the trick of course is to keep their target in low armour, to keep them shooting the right target. But as you say, what happens if they notice Shani is in triage and switch quickly to him, as indeed happened on occasion in the fight.

At that point Shani can refit to 2 reppers + 4 hardeners + DC and overload. The hard part is making sure that whilst repping Davinci, he has saved enough cap still that he can 'coast' out of triage on this new cap-burning fit. That's the hard part really - in the heat of the battle it's extremely difficult to micromanage that.

If he makes it out of triage, even on zero cap, a refitted Davinci is then ready to cap him up and rep him.

(Note: in that situation shani would have 2 local reppers instead of all resists, so the tank during those minutes of cap-burning & coasting would be less than 56,500, probably more in the region of 40,000. So it still makes it a dangerous business if primed very early in the 5min cycle, hence the importance of keeping people keen on a specific target. Risky business).


Originally by: Furb Killer


And other question, maybe i missed it, but at which range were their (super) caps from your two archons? Did they bother with neuting the triage carrier?



Pretty close, about 10-40km at different stages of the fight. So certainly able to neut (or approach and neut), especially on Agent, who was at point blank range (since he had to bring the hic). I recall the Aeon cited several times as neuting and some of the other caps too.

That's simply something we had to contend with, in the same sense as damage. Certainly in the early stages of the fight, there was no question of counter-neuting them by refitting dps BS for that. However, don't underestimate the Archon's cap recharge. On our normal fit triage carrier, it's +791 cap/second with implants. So with two local reps runnig that would be 791 - 427 = 364 cap/second. Assuming the hostile caps were not Talisman-set fitted (which is unlikely) and that we were able to kill any neuting support (we were) that means they need 15 Heavy neuts to break the peak recharge whilst the Archon has both its reppers going flat out. Did they have 15 Heavy neuts? Perhaps - but even then, there's still the capacitor buffer to neut through before you hit the peak recharge, if the carrier entered triage on full cap.

Of course, in this fight the carriers were rarely in the normal triage fits anyway - constantly refitting for more cap/rep or more resist, depending on who was primed. So refitting to maximise cap regen during the time they weren't prime was one of the challenges of micromanagement in the fight; I don't envy them Smile

Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2011.07.02 23:05:00 - [25]
 

Fantastic battle report Maldoror, thank you for sharing it with us. Rooks and Kings continues its multi-year streak of being on the cutting edge in triage tactics.

Neuralyzer
Posted - 2011.07.02 23:27:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Neuralyzer on 02/07/2011 23:27:42
The Pink Elephant's perspective: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBgHTbZK0wI

Lord Fuxaton
Minmatar
Federal Defence Union
Posted - 2011.07.03 02:15:00 - [27]
 

So the entire point of this thread is that the thanatos needs to be buffed?

JC Anderson
Caldari
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2011.07.03 03:29:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: JC Anderson on 03/07/2011 03:30:44
Amazing work guys.

Watched your iron clad video as well. Impressive use of the Guardians.

Major JSilva
Caldari
Oberon Incorporated
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.07.03 08:08:00 - [29]
 

Nice work and nice battle report Lord Maldoror

bishop841B
Posted - 2011.07.03 09:15:00 - [30]
 

perfect! Awesome report. Keep up the great work.


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