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blankseplocked [Suggestion] Replace attribute implants
 
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Spacejugs
Posted - 2011.07.29 23:39:00 - [91]
 

I support this idea however I'd peraonally would like to see them removed completely without a replacement apart from giving everyone +5 in attributes. It would be the easier solution and would still have the same benifit without adding a slightly strange new mechanic to the game.

Domenico Morosini
Posted - 2011.07.30 00:18:00 - [92]
 

I like it!

Comy 1
Ore Mongers
Indecisive Certainty
Posted - 2011.07.30 01:46:00 - [93]
 

Originally by: Kaelie Onren


Okay, if we are to work with your new proposal (just remove the non pirate ones) then how does this solve your original problem of highsec people not wanting to go to null for fear of losing them? Especially when they are orders of magnitude more than the regular 1-5 implants? If I'm missing something, do let me know, but it seems a little in-congruent.

To more directly answer your perceived problem though, and forgive me if someone said it already, is to use jumpclones. They are easy to get, and any highsec person will get one for null sec playtime. I therefore counter propose that any perceived problem of highsec'ers afraid of nullsec, or nullsec'ers not training fast enough is not a real problem with jumpclones.


What I mean is that the attribute bonus on the pirate implants will be removed, while still giving their secondary bonus (extra armor, better shield boosting and similar). This way players will not miss out on skilltraining while jump cloning, even if they will be cripled overall in performance.

But from my experience people tend to be willing to be a bit gimped for a day, as long as it doesn't make their skills train slower. I don't want to use the old cliché of "you didn't read the post", but it seems like you missed part of my argument on why this change would make people more willing to explore the world.

Once again this suggestion is not some kind of "force players to do THIS", but rather remove some of the roadblocks stopping alot of players from experiencing different aspects of the game.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.30 03:35:00 - [94]
 

Originally by: Comy 1
Originally by: Kaelie Onren


Okay, if we are to work with your new proposal (just remove the non pirate ones) then how does this solve your original problem of highsec people not wanting to go to null for fear of losing them? Especially when they are orders of magnitude more than the regular 1-5 implants? If I'm missing something, do let me know, but it seems a little in-congruent.

To more directly answer your perceived problem though, and forgive me if someone said it already, is to use jumpclones. They are easy to get, and any highsec person will get one for null sec playtime. I therefore counter propose that any perceived problem of highsec'ers afraid of nullsec, or nullsec'ers not training fast enough is not a real problem with jumpclones.


What I mean is that the attribute bonus on the pirate implants will be removed, while still giving their secondary bonus (extra armor, better shield boosting and similar). This way players will not miss out on skilltraining while jump cloning, even if they will be cripled overall in performance.

But from my experience people tend to be willing to be a bit gimped for a day, as long as it doesn't make their skills train slower. I don't want to use the old cliché of "you didn't read the post", but it seems like you missed part of my argument on why this change would make people more willing to explore the world.

Once again this suggestion is not some kind of "force players to do THIS", but rather remove some of the roadblocks stopping alot of players from experiencing different aspects of the game.



I did read it, but it was a long time ago, so maybe I forgot some parts.

Okay then, working with this proposal, I would ask why you think that people perceive the negative aspect of having their skills train slower? I mean, isn't it a choice any player makes to either use +5 implants in both clones or not? If they put the same implants in both clones there is no 'slower training'. Just increased risk of losing a set in null. But that is the price you pay for training the same speed you do in Empire. I mean, if you remove all the +'s from the implants, then everyone trains slower everywhere anyhow, but your response is to add + boosters. Okay, so my counter proposal then is why not add those + boosters, but leave existing implants alone? Why gimp somebody in highsec who has no intention of ever going to nullsec nor care to (hey lot's of play modes fit into this... FW, trading, R&D, carebear ratting) why are you gimping them?

I think that adding +'s to (new) boosters is a good idea (if not there already) so that people can use their non implanted jumpclones on boosters in null, to 'match' the SP training that they have in their +5 jumpclone in highsec.

Doesn't this make everyone happy, solve your 'issue', and most importantly, doesn't force anyone to do anything that they don't want? (or muck with existing mechanics)?

Comy 1
Ore Mongers
Indecisive Certainty
Posted - 2011.07.30 03:48:00 - [95]
 

Edited by: Comy 1 on 30/07/2011 03:49:50
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
I think that adding +'s to (new) boosters is a good idea (if not there already) so that people can use their non implanted jumpclones on boosters in null, to 'match' the SP training that they have in their +5 jumpclone in highsec.



Yes I could see that working, looking at the boosters as a 1-day pass so to say for the player that use them for the intention of having a day out of their standard clone. As I stated earlier I'm not a game balancer but rather a player that want a change, so I suggested a big change. But truth be told I would be happy with the boosters being an alternative. That is you can use EITHER an implant or the booster, while the effects are non stacking.

And as someone else proposed earlier in the thread, if the cost of using boosters constantly for about 3 months or something would be about the same as buying an actual implant I would be happy.


Rawbone
Gallente
S3MINAL FLUID
Imperial 0rder
Posted - 2011.07.30 04:47:00 - [96]
 

+1

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.30 05:26:00 - [97]
 

Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 30/07/2011 05:30:46
I guess then it's good that I am a game balancer. :)
If you change this proposal to 'add attribute boosters' then I will gladly give my support.

Edit: though I would also insist that the price of these new boosters be free floating market prices and dependent on what they are manufactured from. Or perhaps an LP store purchase at discount.

Stan Smith
Posted - 2011.07.30 08:35:00 - [98]
 

/undecided

when i first read the post, i thought it was a bad idea. then after reading a few more posts, it started to make a bit more sense. for newer players, they buy implants of any quality, they often cant afford to keep replacing them too often. older players can circumvent this with jump clones, but younger players often dont have the required 8.0 standing to get one, therefore newer players are less inclined to pvp

on the other hand however, if implants were not seeded, but were player made, prices for these implants should drop and also have the same desired effect

LittleTerror
Day Unhappy Security Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.30 11:07:00 - [99]
 

Not supporting this idea, implants are working just fine as they are, they give reason to pod someone and they are one of the ways you can really hurt someones wallet.

Utsen Dari
Posted - 2011.07.30 15:03:00 - [100]
 

Proposal appears to be trying to limit the financial loss associated with death, by replacing a destructible item with an item whose effect is persistent through death and/or a cost over time un-associated with death.

Not supported. One of the appeals of EVE is that combat is risky and death is at least a little bit meaningful unlike in other MMOs.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.30 16:57:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: Utsen Dari
Proposal appears to be trying to limit the financial loss associated with death, by replacing a destructible item with an item whose effect is persistent through death and/or a cost over time un-associated with death.

Not supported. One of the appeals of EVE is that combat is risky and death is at least a little bit meaningful unlike in other MMOs.


Perhaps it was originally such a proposal. (and I will be against if it that were the still the case)

I think it has become more of a proposal to add some boosters which give some implant like qualities but only for limited time, like a week. I was under the impression that dying will still lose you the bonus, but the booster would be cheaper than the equivalent implant that would give the same bonus, thus making it more affordable for new players.

Comy 1
Ore Mongers
Indecisive Certainty
Posted - 2011.07.30 18:23:00 - [102]
 

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Originally by: Utsen Dari
Proposal appears to be trying to limit the financial loss associated with death, by replacing a destructible item with an item whose effect is persistent through death and/or a cost over time un-associated with death.

Not supported. One of the appeals of EVE is that combat is risky and death is at least a little bit meaningful unlike in other MMOs.


Perhaps it was originally such a proposal. (and I will be against if it that were the still the case)

I think it has become more of a proposal to add some boosters which give some implant like qualities but only for limited time, like a week. I was under the impression that dying will still lose you the bonus, but the booster would be cheaper than the equivalent implant that would give the same bonus, thus making it more affordable for new players.



This is true that the idea has changed a bit over time. When I originaly made this thread I honestly came up with it as I wrote. With that said I will try to write up a new, more balanced and explainative thread that will hopefully be up during next week. I will also offer some of the people that gave me critics more than "I HATE THIS IDEA" the opportuinity to read my draft to look for holes that can be improved.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.31 05:52:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: Mike Hysteria
Edited by: Mike Hysteria on 02/07/2011 16:48:07
You could maybe ask to CCP to create Boddy salvagers...
Whith those salvagers you could "Salvage" Implant-parts from a dead body in station with special Jove-facilities, and then... Recreate new Implants with the appropriate BPO + Materials you salvaged, coupled with some PI Items, to make PI even more used.

+1 Implants BPOs: 15Mio ISK.
+2 Implants BPOs: 30Mio ISK.
+3 Implants BPOs: 45Mio ISK.
+4 Implants BPOs: 60Mio ISK.
+5 Implants BPOs: 75Mio ISK.

So, you could make a cheap set of BPOs and make Implants easier to generate, and by then... More Implants on the market, prices goes down.

Mike aka Psy.


Just read this now. Interesting proposal, but must be balance vis a vis the loss of income for pve missioners. Essentially makes implant income for industrialists only. Which leaves only factional and navy ships as income for mission runners? Or am I missing something else?

Max Von Sydow
Posted - 2011.08.23 20:37:00 - [104]
 

Bump

Vertisce Soritenshi
SHADOW WARD
Tragedy.
Posted - 2011.08.23 20:56:00 - [105]
 

I like this idea. Like drugs...the good ones make you smarter right?

Maz3r Rakum
Gallente
The Imperial Fedaykin
Posted - 2011.08.24 05:08:00 - [106]
 

drugs

Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.08.24 10:04:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: Better Than You
The current system works just fine. Not everything in this game has to revolve around PvP you know.

/not supported



yes, everything in the game is PVP... no, not all of it is necessarily combat.

However, no to the idea anyway. risk what you can afford to lose ... be that nothing, +3s, +5s, HG Pirate, whatever...

Ere Colliseru
Etoilles Mortant Ltd.
Solyaris Chtonium
Posted - 2011.08.24 13:24:00 - [108]
 

Edited by: Ere Colliseru on 24/08/2011 13:24:19
Edited by: Ere Colliseru on 24/08/2011 13:23:49
Supporting with monthly payed booster (drugs) you dont loose by dying for a fair prices like current prices / 12:

+5 = 8 misk / month
+4 = 1,5 misk / month
+3 = 0,65 misk / month
+2 = 0,25 misk / month
+1 = 0,1 misk / month

also introducing 2 more steps for LP store via a pill which is sellable open at markets:
+6 = 30 misk / month + 25.000 LP
+7 = 100 misk / month + 50.000 LP
In order to boost low sec without nerfing high sec this could be sold at Pirate NPCs only and/or with LP at a lvl 5 agent earned by doing missions for them (similar to datacores but you really have to work in those missions)

Rutilus Pallium
Minmatar
The Skunkworks
Posted - 2011.08.25 00:58:00 - [109]
 

Edited by: Rutilus Pallium on 25/08/2011 01:03:58
Great idea.

The existing +X implants need to be converted to SOMETHING that benefits people who use them so that players don't lose half a billion isk worth of implants to an update.

edit: dying should stop the booster effect, but it would be cheaper to buy a new pack of boosters than to buy new implants. I agree with the OP that this makes it easier for people to get into PVP as they aren't risking high-value learning implants (just do your PVP roams near the end of your booster cycle if you're still worried) and doesn't penalize people who live out in null and can't afford to risk that much isk on their pod.

Attribute booster times should be present in the API along with your queue so you can get alerts on when you need to pop another booster.

Sephiroth CloneIIV
Rim Worlds Republic
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.08.25 02:45:00 - [110]
 

why not just just use +3 or +4 if in nullsec atm. Or even more cheep just with the two attributes you likely be training for (perception and willpower?).

Risk and reward, you could risk much less and get still a good bonus.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION

Posted - 2011.08.25 14:17:00 - [111]
 

Podding mechanics in eve have always been terrible. Unless your in a buble, it just gives a *huge* advantage to people with better computers and internet connections.

I think *all* implants should be replaced with boosters like this.

steave435
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.08.25 15:32:00 - [112]
 

Yes

Originally by: Val'Dore
Originally by: Alejan Gerakh
Originally by: Val'Dore
Considering that skills train based on the attributes that existed when they started training, this is a nonissue really.

Even if the booster expired once you started the skill, the entire train time for that skill would still evidence the boosted effect.

Ah, that helps. So that means when remapping, your current skill won't be slowed down if you are remapping away from its primary or secondary? If so, this greatly simplifies my issues around remapping time.

I still think attribute implants can stay in for those willing to risk it for the convenience of not having to keep using the boosters... but, as I said, they either shouldn't be able to use boosters, or only gain up to the current maximum bonus.


Well, I haven't personally tested it, but I think remapping forces your skill to stop progressing. You also have to stop your skill progress to add implants. But jump cloning out of your +5s while Carrier 5 is ticking down for the next 3 weeks, will not result in an increase of training time.

False. Remapping/changing implants/jump cloning (and any other ways to change your attributes if I forgot one) forces you to pause your skill queue while you do so, and the training time is also re-calculated after getting podded.

Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.08.25 15:55:00 - [113]
 

Originally by: steave435
Yes

Originally by: Val'Dore
Originally by: Alejan Gerakh
Originally by: Val'Dore
Considering that skills train based on the attributes that existed when they started training, this is a nonissue really.

Even if the booster expired once you started the skill, the entire train time for that skill would still evidence the boosted effect.

Ah, that helps. So that means when remapping, your current skill won't be slowed down if you are remapping away from its primary or secondary? If so, this greatly simplifies my issues around remapping time.

I still think attribute implants can stay in for those willing to risk it for the convenience of not having to keep using the boosters... but, as I said, they either shouldn't be able to use boosters, or only gain up to the current maximum bonus.


Well, I haven't personally tested it, but I think remapping forces your skill to stop progressing. You also have to stop your skill progress to add implants. But jump cloning out of your +5s while Carrier 5 is ticking down for the next 3 weeks, will not result in an increase of training time.

False. Remapping/changing implants/jump cloning (and any other ways to change your attributes if I forgot one) forces you to pause your skill queue while you do so, and the training time is also re-calculated after getting podded.


however, getting podded (provided you DO NOT touch the skill training stuff) doesn't. Or at least it used to leave your SP/hour at the "with implants" numbers after getting podded (until, pausing/changing skills/jumpcloning/etc)

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Posted - 2011.08.25 18:46:00 - [114]
 

Originally by: Velicitia
Originally by: steave435

Remapping/changing implants/jump cloning (and any other ways to change your attributes if I forgot one) forces you to pause your skill queue while you do so, and the training time is also re-calculated after getting podded.


however, getting podded (provided you DO NOT touch the skill training stuff) doesn't. Or at least it used to leave your SP/hour at the "with implants" numbers after getting podded (until, pausing/changing skills/jumpcloning/etc)


This was true a few expansions ago, but they changed it. If you get podded now, when you awake in your cloe bay your skill que is immediately altered to reflect your new (lower) attributes.

I do like the idea of attribute boosters. Its an OUTSTANDING idea. However, what is to be done about the faction implants? Currently slaves and the like fill in implant slots 1-6. Removing them from the game will rightfully cause quite an uproar. Also, since implants are one of the major LP to ISK conversion tools, your might significantly hurt carebears with this change. I think all implants would need to be reworked with this change. Perhaps make implants slots 1-5 related to defense, and slots 6-10 related to offense, with attribute enhances limited to boosters (lol, go go mentat addictions!!) The other option, is that the drawback of attribute boosters, is to limit or eliminate the effectiveness of various implant slots!

Manique
Caldari
Ominous Corp
Posted - 2011.08.28 11:36:00 - [115]
 

Yes, SP/H change when you get poded and it's without implants.


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