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Mark Hamill
Amarr
Galactic Waste Management
EVE Trade Consortium
Posted - 2011.07.01 20:07:00 - [1]
 

A msg to the export DEV's:

I'm getting really tired of having to fix EVETycoon every single time you come out with a patch or expansion because you decide to completely rearrange the way you do things with zero notice and zero good reason.

Prior to Insufferable... I mean Incarna... My orders and Corp orders exports had 24 fields. You decided for no good damned reason, to whack out a field in the middle of those exports and instead of the 24 fields, they both now have 23. Now I can see streamlining your process. Fine, good. However, in one really STUIPD move, you just completely disabled 2 modules from EVETycoon by REMOVING a field from the middle of a CSV export and are forcing me for yet the fifth time to go into my code and patch crap you screw up. If you didn't want that field in the middle because it was too much SQL stress, FINE... make a blank field. Don't just arbitrarily remove it and break 3rd party apps Please refrain from insults on these boards. Spitfire

Entity
X-Factor Industries
Synthetic Existence
Posted - 2011.07.01 20:32:00 - [2]
 

Hehe. I feel your pain.

I don't think calling them idiots and morons is going to help things though :P

Mark Hamill
Amarr
Galactic Waste Management
EVE Trade Consortium
Posted - 2011.07.01 20:49:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Entity
Hehe. I feel your pain.

I don't think calling them idiots and morons is going to help things though :P


Ya know what, you're probably right. But I've found out in the past that asking them politely to stop being morons just doesn't work.

Example: The first time they did stupid **** like this was years ago. They changed export file names from this:

Tash-Murkon - N-Type whater - Date.txt

to this

Tash-Murkon-N-Type whatever-Date.txt.

Now if you write code, one of the FIRST damned things you learn is not to have your token and your separator be the same. This cost me over 100 lines of code as I have to parse it into 3, 4 or 5 fields and then mash together what might be a region name and compare it against a list of KNOWN regions. I made mention of this years ago when they pulled this stupid stunt to no avail it still hasn't been fixed..

The LAST moronic thing they did was to add in carriage returns to a CSV exports from the API. Again, petitioned and posted on the forums. How MORONIC do you have to be to add a carriage return to a CSV? No response.

Now this idiocy.

At least 5 times they've busted my app because of stunts like this and each time I've complained and each time I've been ignored.

So as far as I can see, calling them morons seems to have no effect on them as I'm totally ignored and they continue to be stupid... BUT my need to nerdrage in public is ultimately satisfied and therefore I feel better.

Entity
X-Factor Industries
Synthetic Existence
Posted - 2011.07.01 21:40:00 - [4]
 

You might want to look into using the client cache instead.
Can even automate things then.

Mark Hamill
Amarr
Galactic Waste Management
EVE Trade Consortium
Posted - 2011.07.01 21:47:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Entity
You might want to look into using the client cache instead.
Can even automate things then.


No API usable for the language ET is written and after looking at code for sc****rs that do exist, I gave up.

Zeta Zhul
Caldari
Preemptive Paranoia
Posted - 2011.07.02 03:24:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Mark Hamill
Originally by: Entity
You might want to look into using the client cache instead.
Can even automate things then.


No API usable for the language ET is written and after looking at code for sc****rs that do exist, I gave up.


What language is ET written in? And can I help? You're talking about scraping the client cache to get market data right? Current regional orders and/or market history right?

Gotta warn you though. Even using cache sc****rs the stupidity doesn't end. Part of the path the client cache resides in is a number. Every patch they increment the number. So depending on how you do things it may or may not be a pain.

Epitrope
The Citadel Manufacturing and Trade Corporation
Posted - 2011.07.02 08:00:00 - [7]
 

There's definitely room to complain, and I don't disagree with you, but you probably shouldn't be using the csv interface. Parsing the XML with an actual XML library would have eased this particular pain a bit.

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2011.07.02 10:31:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Zeta Zhul
What language is ET written in? And can I help? You're talking about scraping the client cache to get market data right? Current regional orders and/or market history right?

Same question. I can think about a least 2 ways to embed cache reading into literally any language, even if it does not support binary-safe string operations.

Quote:
Gotta warn you though. Even using cache sc****rs the stupidity doesn't end. Part of the path the client cache resides in is a number. Every patch they increment the number. So depending on how you do things it may or may not be a pain.

This your reference isn't true. All you have to do is to account for it, which is no more than 5 lines of code executed once in a program run.

Mark Hamill
Amarr
Galactic Waste Management
EVE Trade Consortium
Posted - 2011.07.02 10:47:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Epitrope
There's definitely room to complain, and I don't disagree with you, but you probably shouldn't be using the csv interface. Parsing the XML with an actual XML library would have eased this particular pain a bit.


If CCP had a way of exporting it to XML, I could have done that. Instead, the export button in the client does CSV.

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2011.07.02 10:57:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Mark Hamill
Originally by: Epitrope
There's definitely room to complain, and I don't disagree with you, but you probably shouldn't be using the csv interface. Parsing the XML with an actual XML library would have eased this particular pain a bit.


If CCP had a way of exporting it to XML, I could have done that. Instead, the export button in the client does CSV.

How about you don't use export button?... Use standalone cache readers and pump already extracted data from them, instead of inventing wheels.

Mark Hamill
Amarr
Galactic Waste Management
EVE Trade Consortium
Posted - 2011.07.02 11:05:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Zeta Zhul
Originally by: Mark Hamill
Originally by: Entity
You might want to look into using the client cache instead.
Can even automate things then.


No API usable for the language ET is written and after looking at code for sc****rs that do exist, I gave up.


What language is ET written in? And can I help? You're talking about scraping the client cache to get market data right? Current regional orders and/or market history right?

Gotta warn you though. Even using cache sc****rs the stupidity doesn't end. Part of the path the client cache resides in is a number. Every patch they increment the number. So depending on how you do things it may or may not be a pain.


ET is written in Delphi. I've been bundling ET with the NEMMS.com sc****r which, up till Incarna, has worked mostly. I have looked over the code for the API's out there trying to figure out the structure of cache files and none of it even makes sense to me. Delphi doesn't even have a 'tuplet' structure.

The NEMMS sc****r has a command line parameter that I can give it to dump regional orders to a csv file. I've had ET starting and stopping the sc****r and simply working it that way, leaving in the option of manually exporting from the client. But even the sc****r causes issues with unwanted items as EVERYTHING the user looks up in the market gets converted. They may not be trading in all those items.

What I'd really like is the structure of these cache files written somewhere in English so that I could hopefully incorporate the code directly into ET but I don't see that happening. Probably the best that I can ever hope for is some ActiveX component that could be plugged into the code or a .dll I could access.

And yes, I'm well aware of the cache changing directories and have ways to handle that.

Mark Hamill
Amarr
Galactic Waste Management
EVE Trade Consortium
Posted - 2011.07.02 11:11:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Tonto Auri
Originally by: Mark Hamill
Originally by: Epitrope
There's definitely room to complain, and I don't disagree with you, but you probably shouldn't be using the csv interface. Parsing the XML with an actual XML library would have eased this particular pain a bit.


If CCP had a way of exporting it to XML, I could have done that. Instead, the export button in the client does CSV.

How about you don't use export button?... Use standalone cache readers and pump already extracted data from them, instead of inventing wheels.


As I mentioned, I'm doing that. But the sc****rs don't create an ideal situation. For example:

I trade in say 300 items. But I also buy and sell things on the market and check prices of things I don't specifically trade in, i.e. blueprints. Sc****rs don't discriminate, they grab everything. This means ET gets flooded with a lot of market items the user really isn't interested in. Up to this point, I've simply added in a way to 'pause' the sc****r so the user can browse the market and not read that data into ET.

Furthermore, the sc****r I've been using (the only one I've found that works) is the NEMMS sc****r and it only does items on the market. It does not read My Orders or Corp Orders. Therefore, I HAVE to rely on the export button.

Chibisuke
Gallente
Children of Avalon
Posted - 2011.07.02 16:46:00 - [13]
 

sorry, but all CSVs CCP provides always got headers.

so if you'd follow propper design guidelines, you'd parse the headers, notice there is a field missing, automatically determin if its crucial and if its not continue as if nothing happened.

This is how my code works, and I never had to do any update on my already written code to get it "working again" in the last years. Never until now.

I sometimes updated it to allow for additional features, but thats it.

For delphi and reading caches..... make a wrapper around libevecache, thats not to hard to do.

regarding structure of the files.... nothing says more then code, so if you want to know it: https://github.com/ntt/reverence/blob/master/src/blue/marshal.c
marshal_load() (_blue.marshal.load()) is your friend.

Maggeridon Thoraz
Amarr
Posted - 2011.07.02 16:49:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Maggeridon Thoraz on 02/07/2011 16:49:14
just wait till ccp soundwave thinks again like this and you can flush your app in the toilet
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Hey guys!

We took it out because it seems like a bit of an odd piece of information for the majority of our users. In general, having import/export features aren't really something I'm thrilled with.

Mark Hamill
Amarr
Galactic Waste Management
EVE Trade Consortium
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:05:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Maggeridon Thoraz
Edited by: Maggeridon Thoraz on 02/07/2011 16:49:14
just wait till ccp soundwave thinks again like this and you can flush your app in the toilet
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Hey guys!

We took it out because it seems like a bit of an odd piece of information for the majority of our users. In general, having import/export features aren't really something I'm thrilled with.



The more I'm finding out about him, the more I REALLY dislike him.

Zeta Zhul
Caldari
Preemptive Paranoia
Posted - 2011.07.03 01:47:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Mark Hamill
Originally by: Maggeridon Thoraz
Edited by: Maggeridon Thoraz on 02/07/2011 16:49:14
just wait till ccp soundwave thinks again like this and you can flush your app in the toilet
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Hey guys!

We took it out because it seems like a bit of an odd piece of information for the majority of our users. In general, having import/export features aren't really something I'm thrilled with.



The more I'm finding out about him, the more I REALLY dislike him.


1. Shall we set up a poll for all EO players on who at CCP we want fired for incompetence? Very Happy

2. Ahhh Delphi. I still have the v7 cd. Programmed in that language for a few years. It really is a shame that Borland basically screwed it all up.

3. You can get market orders from the API. So that will give you a list of items currently being traded by the user and then use that list to filter the output from the cache sc****r.

Zeta Zhul
Caldari
Preemptive Paranoia
Posted - 2011.07.03 01:50:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Tonto Auri
Originally by: Zeta Zhul
...Gotta warn you though. Even using cache sc****rs the stupidity doesn't end. Part of the path the client cache resides in is a number. Every patch they increment the number. So depending on how you do things it may or may not be a pain.

This your reference isn't true. All you have to do is to account for it, which is no more than 5 lines of code executed once in a program run.


Not going to get into a fight with you but I did write "So depending on how you do things it may or may not be a pain.".

Mark Hamill
Amarr
Galactic Waste Management
EVE Trade Consortium
Posted - 2011.07.03 03:26:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Zeta Zhul


1. Shall we set up a poll for all EO players on who at CCP we want fired for incompetence? Very Happy

2. Ahhh Delphi. I still have the v7 cd. Programmed in that language for a few years. It really is a shame that Borland basically screwed it all up.

3. You can get market orders from the API. So that will give you a list of items currently being traded by the user and then use that list to filter the output from the cache sc****r.


1. After the past week, that would be a lengthy list.
2. Yea but it still serves my needs.
3. Tried that, wanted to use it, it returns nothing. Last month, it returned the first 2650 orders I ever placed... years ago. Now, nothing.

Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2011.07.03 07:02:00 - [19]
 

Actually, the onus is on you as a developer integrating external sources into your application to develop defensively in anticipation of changes such as this, be they format, data type or naming strategies. You are the stupid moron for allowing such a simple change to break your application.

Hel O'Ween
Men On A Mission
EVE Trade Consortium
Posted - 2011.07.03 07:30:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Zeta Zhul

What language is ET written in? And can I help? You're talking about scraping the client cache to get market data right? Current regional orders and/or market history right?



I'd love to see a standard Win32 DLL cache scraping library, without the need to install a programming language (like Python) on the client's machine.

Etil DeLaFuente
Posted - 2011.07.03 20:55:00 - [21]
 

Not morons, more like incompetent and not professionals at best. That whole api is pure crap anyway. Unless CCP decides to put someone competent in charge and make a web based api conform to today's standards, you'll have to keep fixing their mistakes.


Trenker
Posted - 2011.07.04 07:11:00 - [22]
 

I agree. The API does not meet todays standards you have when working with a web API. Implemented features are often buggy and incomplete, changes break existing things, often without a warning and the access handling is not very web 2.0. If CCP wants to create a licensing program, they should continue to improve the product, so the hassle of getting a license (the money involved is only part of that), is worth the result.

Still: I guess your infantile ranting is not helping anyone.

Zeta Zhul
Caldari
Preemptive Paranoia
Posted - 2011.07.05 05:17:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Trenker
I agree. The API does not meet todays standards you have when working with a web API. Implemented features are often buggy and incomplete, changes break existing things, often without a warning and the access handling is not very web 2.0. If CCP wants to create a licensing program, they should continue to improve the product, so the hassle of getting a license (the money involved is only part of that), is worth the result.

Still: I guess your infantile ranting is not helping anyone.


Yeah! Because not complaining has worked so well in dealing with CCP. Very Happy

Sarmatiko
Posted - 2011.07.05 07:35:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Sarmatiko on 05/07/2011 08:02:31
Originally by: Zeta Zhul
Gotta warn you though. Even using cache sc****rs the stupidity doesn't end. Part of the path the client cache resides in is a number. Every patch they increment the number. So depending on how you do things it may or may not be a pain.

Didn't they changed cache format in the latest 2011-R2-AUGUSTUS branch installed on Sisi? Bulk data now stored in "ari" files.

Ray McCormack
Nordar Innovations.
Posted - 2011.07.16 19:27:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Ray McCormack
Actually, the onus is on you as a developer integrating external sources into your application to develop defensively in anticipation of changes such as this, be they format, data type or naming strategies. You are the stupid moron for allowing such a simple change to break your application.

As a follow up, since you've appeared to lose your venom, it appears the answer needs to be a pre-event change-log by CCP's API devs in order for the burgeoning and soon-to-be-paying 3rd party devs to ensure such changes don't break their apps.

As the product owner of a B2B application that suffers from this exact same syndrome I can assure you that when it comes to such changes the onus is on the observable to publish such changes to the observer well ahead of time to prevent economical losses to observers of their service.

In our circumstances market forces cannot dictate such a behavioural paradigm so it would be prudent to assume that for our benefit CCP would enforce one.

TLDR; publish any changes in advance to give us dev plebs the opportunity to adapt. Granted, you're going up against Darwinism, but think of the children.

Silly Hoe
Posted - 2011.07.17 15:18:00 - [26]
 

... in late but ... people still use delphi? wtf

Trenker
Posted - 2011.07.17 20:03:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Silly Hoe
... in late but ... people still use delphi? wtf
There are still people using Windows XP, so why are you wonderingVery Happy

If CCP wants to sell their API as a product (and a licensing program is nothing else), events like this must not happen. If they change something, they would have to give developers some infos, so they could adapt their programs ahead of time.

Earl Comstock
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2011.07.22 15:35:00 - [28]
 

It's hard to feel too sorry for you if you already have experience with them doing this sort of thing.

The CSV files do have a header row that will tell you if any fields are missing or changed position. This is just as good as the empty field you have requested.

Setup a list of required fields for each of your modules, and disable them automatically if any are missing.

On a more positive note, thumbs up for Delphi. Been doing development in P/OP/Delphi since TP5.5, just bought XE about a month ago.

My own market file monitor client (internal) is in Delphi, though it just watches the directory and uploads the files and lets the server do the processing. No client changes/updates needed when CCP changes stuff. Just adjust the server and reprocess the uploaded files.

Thebriwan
LUX Uls Xystus
Posted - 2011.07.23 09:42:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Silly Hoe
... in late but ... people still use delphi? wtf


That made me LOL. When I finally see something that is even remotely as good as Delphi THEN there would be any sense in this quote. But wait... There is none. ugh

Dragonaire
Caldari
Corax.
PURgE Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.23 15:32:00 - [30]
 

Quote:
That made me LOL. When I finally see something that is even remotely as good as Delphi THEN there would be any sense in this quote. But wait... There is none.
But then again there are more applications written in every other programming language besides Delphi for the last few years so I guess that already been answered by most programmers and the market Wink I really liked Modula-2 and several other languages but in the end they lost out to others as well not because they weren't okay or even great but the main company behind them all drove people away in the end.


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