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Mitchello
B O R G
Posted - 2011.07.01 20:54:00 - [241]
 

Isn't it remarkable how the attention has been deflected towards CSM as instrument of CCP?

Worth thinking about, twice even, when you rage at a CSM which in spite of its self inflicted powerless start did pick up the gauntlet when it was thrown.

Truth be told, it's remarkable. They went there, at short notice, across timezones, and did the equivalent of a high level consultancy job which in all honesty CCP could and should have prevented. Yet while they make that effort, investment even if you will, it is their efforts which take in rage. While in the mean time the party at cause of the situation is no longer of interest.

Now that's smart PR Cool

No, that does not invalidate the effort put in, undoubtedly by both sides. We can say what we will, but CCP does have at minimum a strong commercial interest in the life of the golden goose. And while people in a state of rage may disagree on whether they care for the golden goose (personally, I think they do, maybe even too much as in spite of segregation there are clear signs of a conflict so aptly described in media as "CCP may own the game, but the customers own the community", entangled in the big cold and dark kettle that is the emerging dynamic of EVE Online. In simple terms, in essence this conflict can be described as case of "my sandbox, no my sandbox", in many ways. Foregoing the important realisation that it's a sandbox which enables more that just dreams, but also people's lives.

No, I'm not making excuses or whiteknighting. CCP should have known better, and could have known better. But regardless of whether people agree or disagree on the role of CSM as instrument, they stumbled, yet stood up and at least made the effort to sit down and channel the information torrent unleashed upon them.
Yes, as I said, it could have been prevented and it is no excuse even if there is reason. But keep in mind that most companies in this industry would have just shrugged it off. Maybe CCP's efforts are strictly that of damage control, maybe they are something different.

So all in all combined, and considering that while for us it is (yes, more than just) a game while for them it is also people's livelihoods, a few days extra makes no difference in the test that CCP and us customers face here. On the contrary.

Given the importance of impact and consequences, and in light of repeated attempts that failed in dealing with the situation, I'd rather see all sides make conscious effort, rather than just blurt out things again.

Sure, we would love to see CCP make a simply clear cut binary statement on these matters. Fact of the matter however is, whether we like it or not, that this is not just more than a game, it is also business. No company in this world will tie itself down voluntarily. If only for the simple reason that none of us knows what the future holds. And while historically CCP has always had a remarkable ability to shoot itself in the foot (unilaterally with roots in communications, regardless of internal or external or combined) they also have always made the effort (even if at times it failed, or took repeated effort) to get out there, stand up, and face the crowd.

So alltogether, those few days make no difference. Not for momentum, not for resolution of frustration, not for prospects of resolution on its own. It's just remarkable, that the party who went out there making that effort in spite of their own frustrations and anger (don't forget, CCP did basically walk over them, regardless of intent or cause, even misrepresenting their statements at a point) is now the one under fire, because they expend the effort to maintain the messaging that has been so sorely missed from CCP.

Now, flame away Cool


Faith Clothos
Posted - 2011.07.01 21:02:00 - [242]
 

Originally by: Mitchello
Isn't it remarkable how the attention has been deflected towards CSM as instrument of CCP?

Worth thinking about, twice even, when you rage at a CSM which in spite of its self inflicted powerless start did pick up the gauntlet when it was thrown.

Truth be told, it's remarkable. They went there, at short notice, across timezones, and did the equivalent of a high level consultancy job which in all honesty CCP could and should have prevented. Yet while they make that effort, investment even if you will, it is their efforts which take in rage. While in the mean time the party at cause of the situation is no longer of interest.

Now that's smart PR Cool

No, that does not invalidate the effort put in, undoubtedly by both sides. We can say what we will, but CCP does have at minimum a strong commercial interest in the life of the golden goose. And while people in a state of rage may disagree on whether they care for the golden goose (personally, I think they do, maybe even too much as in spite of segregation there are clear signs of a conflict so aptly described in media as "CCP may own the game, but the customers own the community", entangled in the big cold and dark kettle that is the emerging dynamic of EVE Online. In simple terms, in essence this conflict can be described as case of "my sandbox, no my sandbox", in many ways. Foregoing the important realisation that it's a sandbox which enables more that just dreams, but also people's lives.

No, I'm not making excuses or whiteknighting. CCP should have known better, and could have known better. But regardless of whether people agree or disagree on the role of CSM as instrument, they stumbled, yet stood up and at least made the effort to sit down and channel the information torrent unleashed upon them.
Yes, as I said, it could have been prevented and it is no excuse even if there is reason. But keep in mind that most companies in this industry would have just shrugged it off. Maybe CCP's efforts are strictly that of damage control, maybe they are something different.

So all in all combined, and considering that while for us it is (yes, more than just) a game while for them it is also people's livelihoods, a few days extra makes no difference in the test that CCP and us customers face here. On the contrary.

Given the importance of impact and consequences, and in light of repeated attempts that failed in dealing with the situation, I'd rather see all sides make conscious effort, rather than just blurt out things again.

Sure, we would love to see CCP make a simply clear cut binary statement on these matters. Fact of the matter however is, whether we like it or not, that this is not just more than a game, it is also business. No company in this world will tie itself down voluntarily. If only for the simple reason that none of us knows what the future holds. And while historically CCP has always had a remarkable ability to shoot itself in the foot (unilaterally with roots in communications, regardless of internal or external or combined) they also have always made the effort (even if at times it failed, or took repeated effort) to get out there, stand up, and face the crowd.

So alltogether, those few days make no difference. Not for momentum, not for resolution of frustration, not for prospects of resolution on its own. It's just remarkable, that the party who went out there making that effort in spite of their own frustrations and anger (don't forget, CCP did basically walk over them, regardless of intent or cause, even misrepresenting their statements at a point) is now the one under fire, because they expend the effort to maintain the messaging that has been so sorely missed from CCP.

Now, flame away Cool




They promised a clear, concise, prompt response. A yes or no if you would.

Instead we get a delayed, unclear, carefully worded PR piece and a video while they wine and dine.

"They are lying to us" as Mittani would put it, indeed.

vasuul
Posted - 2011.07.01 21:04:00 - [243]
 

It's times like this, I am reminded of my history professor talking of the French revolution
They got so blood thirsty they were even killing the children of nobility,lets not forget who is to blame here
Yes there was an uprising here.Yes we are all upset. The CSM's were kept just as much in the dark on a lot of this as we were.

So,honestly its better they choose their words carefully and concisely. to give us as accurate a statement as they can muster.
I for one intend to print it out and save it so if CCP ever goes back on their word in it again:

I will take a huge stinky dump in a cardboard box and ship it to CCP headquarters with that statement neatly on top of the pile
I will Also ship it C.O.D for $1000.00 (the cost of Zulu's fancy Japanese pants )YARRRR!!


Mister Poopypants
Posted - 2011.07.01 21:12:00 - [244]
 

Originally by: Mitchello
But regardless of whether people agree or disagree on the role of CSM as instrument, they stumbled, yet stood up and at least made the effort to sit down and channel the information torrent unleashed upon them.


As of now, there's no real evidence of any actual effort. For all we know, CSM may have gotten an all expenses paid trip to Iceland to enjoy cute Icelandic hookers and blow in exchange for sending a few tweets and blindly signing off on CCP's prewritten statement.

Koba Kyogen
The Concordiat
Concordiat Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.01 21:16:00 - [245]
 

Originally by: Mitchello
Isn't it remarkable how the attention has been deflected towards CSM as instrument of CCP?

Worth thinking about, twice even, when you rage at a CSM which in spite of its self inflicted powerless start did pick up the gauntlet when it was thrown.

Truth be told, it's remarkable. They went there, at short notice, across timezones, and did the equivalent of a high level consultancy job

Now, flame away Cool




They were late off the jump. Practically dragged into the fracas because people started to question their leadership.

Also - you make it sound like they personally built a boat and sailed to Iceland, appearing unannounced and angry!

I don't think a coach class ticket and scheduled dining counts as a rough time. Hence, the super rage.


CSM = That dog won't hunt.



Koba


Shova Kais
Caldari
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
Posted - 2011.07.01 21:17:00 - [246]
 

ITT: The embodiment of the "entitled" generation.

"I DESERVE this, waah, waaah"

Vandrion
Gallente
The Collective
B O R G
Posted - 2011.07.01 21:17:00 - [247]
 

Ok peoples.. My two cents about the statement and the CSM:

1- The CSM was summoned to express our concerns. They did. CCP is the one that can decide what they are going to do. The CSM can't change what CCP's decision is. Deal with it.

2- The CSM is legally obligated to STFU... That's right folks! The Non-Disclosure Agreement means that the members of the CSM can be held LEGALLY responsible for disclosing information until CCP gives them permission....

3- If you cannot understand this please GTFO of the game called life or atleast go get neutered/spayed so you can't breed your special brand of stupid........


Dev Blog/Statement:

It is very easy to answer either yes or no.... That is not the answer we are going to get. CCP's answer will be BOTH yes and no.

Here is the NO:

No we won't see WTFBBQPWN Jovian BS that can take down PL's entire SC fleet solo
No we won't see ammo that gives 5000% bonus to damage and hits for wrecking damage every time
No we won't see mods that give you a 99% bonus to resist

In other words the NO means we won't get super obvious game breakers....

Here is the YES:

Yes we will be able to buy faction standings
Yes we will see ammo that gives you a slight bonus to damage or cap usage
Yes we will see faction towers reintroduced via the Nex
Yes we will see attribute boosters and skill enhancers like Quafe Zero

Now you see why it is taking time to make the statement... CCP has to spin it in an acceptable manner so 50% of the subscribers don't rage quit.....

Tom Peeping
Posted - 2011.07.01 21:18:00 - [248]
 

Edited by: Tom Peeping on 01/07/2011 21:28:20
A: Yes we will extend MT beyond vanity items

B: No we will not extend MT beyond vanity items



There you go CCP... all the hard work of word-smithing is done for you. (and it took me a WHOLE long time to write that).

Nobody cares about the rest of the spin you want to put on the situation... that's the real question much of the community wants answered. Are you going to screw EVE over or not? Will it remain the sandbox we know and love or not? The rest is just fluff and spin... you know it, and we know it.

Microtransactions that only break the game "a little" are not acceptable. I've already cancelled 2 of 3 accounts to send the clear message that for once, internet spaceships really is serious business. I'm hardly alone in that step. I've been hoping to resub, but if CCP responds with a little bit of yes and a little bit of no answer, then they will not be coming back, and the remaining one will leave as well. There are no 1/2 measures that are acceptable here. If CCP is permitted to introduce just a few small microtransactions beyond vanity items, then once that has been accepted, they'll just wait a year or two and do another incremental move, and another, and another. It won't really take that long till they've gotten us to accept a **** sandwitch that we are trying to refuse now.


CCP... get the message... EVE players should not be your sole funding mechanism for development of multiple simultaneous games. Don't expect us to bail you out of the fact that you don't know how to manage finances appropriately, or to work on a reasonably profitable budget.

If I were one of the investors, I'd be calling for the CEO to step down after this debacle.

Mitchello
B O R G
Posted - 2011.07.01 21:19:00 - [249]
 

Edited by: Mitchello on 01/07/2011 21:19:59
Originally by: Faith Clothos
Originally by: Mitchello
Isn't it remarkable how the attention has been deflected towards CSM as instrument of CCP? + wall of text




They promised a clear, concise, prompt response. A yes or no if you would.

Instead we get a delayed, unclear, carefully worded PR piece and a video while they wine and dine.

"They are lying to us" as Mittani would put it


Yes, still personally I prefer that due diligence is done. If CCP does it, good, maybe there is a chance to get out of this mess. If CSM does it, also good, regardless of the ultimate outcome, at least they will have made the effort.

As for Mittani, he made that statement in the campaign time where it reflected on other candidates who aimed at pushing feature or feature detail topics. Things like the Assembly Hall, which was such a hiccup for CCP in its wilderness of topics and backlog. And things like "omg fix blasters". But you are essentially right, but not in an evil kind of way. Yes, CSM was told different things than customers were and it does seem like CCP was at minimum toying with or entertaining very different things again. But that does boil down to the communications challenge. It's not exactly new, heck we had it in beta, and we still have it. The thing is, the larger things grow, the bigger the problems and the more dire the consequences of the essentially same issues (or failures, if you will).

Not by lack of intent though, I do think that CCP tries (even with that issue of "my playground versus your playground". As I said, at minimum because it pays for their lives (and they're not dumb). And yeah, I do think also for more reasons.

It's almost ironic. Hilmar once called EVE an emergent dynamic. The thing with that is, that it is a hallmark of a type of market, type of product which really does constitute EVE Online. Immersive service model operated product. It should not have come as a surprise to CCP that they too are part of that dynamic.

Now we'll see on monday what the results are. And yes, I have no doubt that tomorrow there will be tales of Mittens and others roleplaying drunk brosefs with special devs. Doh. Not the first time, won't be the last. And while some may frown on that, ultimately for the current stakes it does not matter. What matters is what was done these past two days. Not what is done tonight. From what I understand tomorrow folks start flying home again (lol timezone fun), and in the mean time it does appear from twitter and other places that there are CCPians typing away like monkeys on the results of CCP standing up to stick its head together with that of its customers by representation of the CSM.

As I said, I'd rather see that done well, than badly. And if that means a few more days, so be it.

It's just interesting that the culprit has shifted from CCP to CSM, even though it is CSM doing what CCP did not.

Clavian Voi
Posted - 2011.07.01 21:21:00 - [250]
 

Originally by: vasuul
So,honestly its better they choose their words carefully and concisely. to give us as accurate a statement as they can muster.



If CCP really has no plans to sell Pay-to-Win items for real dollars and the newsletter really was just an internal debate that has no bearing on what CCP intends to do in EVE, then this ought to have been a very short and straightforward meeting that took about an hour. Really, if it was all just a big miscommunication then what was being talked about for two days?

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume there was some real debate going on at this meeting. Which is a clear indication that there was not total agreement between CCP and the CSM on these issues. Otherwise, what the hell were they talking about? If it all was a big miscommunication and the CSM and CCP are in total agreement, then this 'Joint Statement' ought to be about two sentences long. The fact that it's taking a team of people to write, translate, and includes video means one of two things: Either CCP and the CSM are even more incompetent than anyone dared fear, or it's taking some time to generate just the right prose necessary to tell us something we don't want to hear.

Seriously, it doesn't take fancy prose and video messages to deliver straightforward good news.

JSquared
Caldari
Quantum Warfare Research and Development
Quantum Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.01 21:22:00 - [251]
 

If it takes you guys this much effort and time to answer a few questions it's no flippen' wonder it took you 6 years to make a bathroom with a door on it called CQ. And why the last few years worth of "expansions" are more like a patch that a team of 5 people should be able to do in a few weeks. I swear I'm going to stop calling you CCP and start calling you the U.S. Senate.

This is like creating a committee to decide if we need to call committees to call a committee. Confused

Kingston Black
Posted - 2011.07.01 21:22:00 - [252]
 

Edited by: Kingston Black on 01/07/2011 21:23:17
FFS it's friday night go out and get drunk we can put our underpants on our heads and burn everything tomorrow when we see the statement YARRRR!!

Morphisat
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
Posted - 2011.07.01 21:24:00 - [253]
 

Originally by: Darth Helmat
Edited by: Darth Helmat on 01/07/2011 19:33:26
Originally by: RensPriceChecker2
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow


You want clear statements. Clear statements take a little extra time.
Trebor


Clear statements take no extra time at all. You just write down how things are. Architected, deceiving statements are thoose that take time to come up with to cover what could have been a clear statement instead.


Recipe:

<para 1> Apologise for crap communication, and our patience, and reassert commitment to eve, and how much they value input from the community.

<snip>




Hey that's pretty well done. I think that's pretty much how it will be. And then much (forum) drama will follow.

Alejan Gerakh
Minmatar
Clan Hyena
Posted - 2011.07.01 21:24:00 - [254]
 

Edited by: Alejan Gerakh on 01/07/2011 21:24:35
Here's the facts: Zulu told us what we wanted to hear, but most of you refused to believe it anyway, as they probably expected, so they also said the CSM would come in to be reassured personally, complete with evidence on the 'Fearless' crap or who knows what else, just to confirm the bloody point, and then they worked on statements so we could be told what we could be told, and that, in turn, is now being translated by localization teams while the CSM and devs go get p!$$-drunk.

I'm not going to completely stand by Zulu's 'no 'gold ammo'' phrasing as being definitive, but I AM willing to give it the benefit of the doubt, unlike you rabble. If you're so sure this is all bull$#!t, you CAN just leave. You've even been shown the door, as you so often like to point out.

I feel justified in my neutrality on the issue, and I feel you all are justified in being angry about the situation, but you have had your options from the very beginning. If you've chosen your option, you could have frelled off. If you're still here, that means you're expecting something from the statement. Which is it?! Either go away or have some bloody patience.

Is THAT so hard to answer? :p

Faith Clothos
Posted - 2011.07.01 21:29:00 - [255]
 

Originally by: Mitchello
Edited by: Mitchello on 01/07/2011 21:19:59
Originally by: Faith Clothos
Originally by: Mitchello
Isn't it remarkable how the attention has been deflected towards CSM as instrument of CCP? + wall of text




They promised a clear, concise, prompt response. A yes or no if you would.

Instead we get a delayed, unclear, carefully worded PR piece and a video while they wine and dine.

"They are lying to us" as Mittani would put it


Yes, still personally I prefer that due diligence is done. If CCP does it, good, maybe there is a chance to get out of this mess. If CSM does it, also good, regardless of the ultimate outcome, at least they will have made the effort.

As for Mittani, he made that statement in the campaign time where it reflected on other candidates who aimed at pushing feature or feature detail topics. Things like the Assembly Hall, which was such a hiccup for CCP in its wilderness of topics and backlog. And things like "omg fix blasters". But you are essentially right, but not in an evil kind of way. Yes, CSM was told different things than customers were and it does seem like CCP was at minimum toying with or entertaining very different things again. But that does boil down to the communications challenge. It's not exactly new, heck we had it in beta, and we still have it. The thing is, the larger things grow, the bigger the problems and the more dire the consequences of the essentially same issues (or failures, if you will).

Not by lack of intent though, I do think that CCP tries (even with that issue of "my playground versus your playground". As I said, at minimum because it pays for their lives (and they're not dumb). And yeah, I do think also for more reasons.

It's almost ironic. Hilmar once called EVE an emergent dynamic. The thing with that is, that it is a hallmark of a type of market, type of product which really does constitute EVE Online. Immersive service model operated product. It should not have come as a surprise to CCP that they too are part of that dynamic.

Now we'll see on monday what the results are. And yes, I have no doubt that tomorrow there will be tales of Mittens and others roleplaying drunk brosefs with special devs. Doh. Not the first time, won't be the last. And while some may frown on that, ultimately for the current stakes it does not matter. What matters is what was done these past two days. Not what is done tonight. From what I understand tomorrow folks start flying home again (lol timezone fun), and in the mean time it does appear from twitter and other places that there are CCPians typing away like monkeys on the results of CCP standing up to stick its head together with that of its customers by representation of the CSM.

As I said, I'd rather see that done well, than badly. And if that means a few more days, so be it.

It's just interesting that the culprit has shifted from CCP to CSM, even though it is CSM doing what CCP did not.



Obfuscation is not due dilligence.

A yes or a no to a yes or no question is.

Tom Peeping
Posted - 2011.07.01 21:33:00 - [256]
 

Originally by: Alejan Gerakh
Edited by: Alejan Gerakh on 01/07/2011 21:24:35
Here's the facts: Zulu told us what we wanted to hear, but most of you refused to believe it anyway, as they probably expected, so they also said the CSM would come in to be reassured personally, complete with evidence on the 'Fearless' crap or who knows what else, just to confirm the bloody point, and then they worked on statements so we could be told what we could be told, and that, in turn, is now being translated by localization teams while the CSM and devs go get p!$$-drunk.

I'm not going to completely stand by Zulu's 'no 'gold ammo'' phrasing as being definitive, but I AM willing to give it the benefit of the doubt, unlike you rabble. If you're so sure this is all bull$#!t, you CAN just leave. You've even been shown the door, as you so often like to point out.

I feel justified in my neutrality on the issue, and I feel you all are justified in being angry about the situation, but you have had your options from the very beginning. If you've chosen your option, you could have frelled off. If you're still here, that means you're expecting something from the statement. Which is it?! Either go away or have some bloody patience.

Is THAT so hard to answer? :p


Zulu told us crap. wtf are you talking about? Zulu's blog was totally insufficient, and avoided all the real questions. There were a lot of words, and none of the content that actually mattered. Zulu's blog was an example of part of the problem How can you possibly say that he told us what we wanted to hear?

Imryn Xaran
Caldari
Coherent Light Enterprises
Posted - 2011.07.01 21:34:00 - [257]
 

Originally by: Clavian Voi
Originally by: vasuul
So,honestly its better they choose their words carefully and concisely. to give us as accurate a statement as they can muster.



If CCP really has no plans to sell Pay-to-Win items for real dollars and the newsletter really was just an internal debate that has no bearing on what CCP intends to do in EVE, then this ought to have been a very short and straightforward meeting that took about an hour. Really, if it was all just a big miscommunication then what was being talked about for two days?

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume there was some real debate going on at this meeting. Which is a clear indication that there was not total agreement between CCP and the CSM on these issues. Otherwise, what the hell were they talking about? If it all was a big miscommunication and the CSM and CCP are in total agreement, then this 'Joint Statement' ought to be about two sentences long. The fact that it's taking a team of people to write, translate, and includes video means one of two things: Either CCP and the CSM are even more incompetent than anyone dared fear, or it's taking some time to generate just the right prose necessary to tell us something we don't want to hear.

Seriously, it doesn't take fancy prose and video messages to deliver straightforward good news.


It's been pretty obvious for a while that MT is going to go beyond purely vanity items. If it wasn't then we would have had a yes / no statement days ago.

This statement will hopefully tell us exactly where CCP are going to draw the line. I expect them to explain their reasoning and give lots of assurances that they will monitor things closely and be prepared to pull things if neccessary etc etc - to spin it in the best possible light.

Once we have the statement we will each have to decide if we can live with where they have drawn that line.

Lojik
Enlightened Industries
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.01 21:36:00 - [258]
 

Why do I get the feeling that it might be a good idea to get to Jita and be ready for the disco lights?

Zleon Leigh
Posted - 2011.07.01 21:38:00 - [259]
 

Originally by: Meeogi
The truth is always simple...short..and blunt.

"statements that take days" usually mean word play, spin, and lies.


this

Alejan Gerakh
Minmatar
Clan Hyena
Posted - 2011.07.01 21:38:00 - [260]
 

Originally by: Tom Peeping
Zulu told us crap. wtf are you talking about? Zulu's blog was totally insufficient, and avoided all the real questions. There were a lot of words, and none of the content that actually mattered. Zulu's blog was an example of part of the problem How can you possibly say that he told us what we wanted to hear?

And that's part of my bloody point, too. Just I guess I left clarifying it out. Suffice to say, the latter half of my post still applies- either the rabble has made their decision on the matter, or they haven't. Either they believe CCP is full of lies or they are willing to believe more good than bad may come out of the statement. And if they're already sure there's only lies and slander, what are they still doing here? Trolling?

Kidara Malfasian
Posted - 2011.07.01 21:40:00 - [261]
 

Edited by: Kidara Malfasian on 01/07/2011 21:41:46
This is unacceptable.

This game is my life. I have no other interests or concerns but what you folks have decided. I am bereft of friends except for those I have online. My family annoys me tot he point that I wish they would die or be taken as slaves by the Amarr.

WTF people. How can I ever endure this agony of what will happen to my internet spaceship game? Have you no compassion? No heart?

I will slit my wrists soon if I do not know the results, if I know whether to rejoice in orgasmic ecstasy that CCP has backed down in the face of our united front--much like those folk in Tienanmen Square so long ago and those involved in the Arab Spring. We too have suffered. SUFFERED I tell you. Can you not see the actual real and serious agony that is going on over this? What can I---oh wait, my TV show is on.

Later

Clavian Voi
Posted - 2011.07.01 21:41:00 - [262]
 

Originally by: Imryn Xaran
It's been pretty obvious for a while that MT is going to go beyond purely vanity items. If it wasn't then we would have had a yes / no statement days ago.

This statement will hopefully tell us exactly where CCP are going to draw the line. I expect them to explain their reasoning and give lots of assurances that they will monitor things closely and be prepared to pull things if neccessary etc etc - to spin it in the best possible light.

Once we have the statement we will each have to decide if we can live with where they have drawn that line.


That's my assessment as well. It sounds as if they intend to use the "boiling frog" method to roll out non-vanity micro-sales in iterations so as not to completely **** off everyone all at once. If they have no plans whatsoever to cross that line then they would have said so days ago.

AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.01 21:41:00 - [263]
 

I would have happily flown to Iceland to get drunk on CCP's dime. Hell, I'll fly to Iceland and get drunk on YOUR dime if you want. Do I get a cookie too?

Issler Dainze
Minmatar
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
Posted - 2011.07.01 21:41:00 - [264]
 

So my take on the whole thing. And before I do I want to go on the record as saying I like the indivuals I've met that work at CCP, they all mean well. I think this may be an example of the hive mind losing its grip on reality. I also am NOT leaving Eve in the near future so no you can't have my stuff.

CCP clearly plans to have MT supplied non-vanity items. These plans remain in place. Here is my reasoning.

If CCP had no plans for non vanity items via MT they would just have said clearly "hey, we were totally missunderstood, we WILL NEVER HAVE NON VANITY ITEMS VIA MT IN EVE!!!!" This would have likely come from the CEO himself. Since they can't say that as they must be planning that in some form so they needed to find some weasel words to protect the future of subscription levels and monuments in Jita.

As they discussed the player reaction with the CSM I believe they realized it was very likely the CSM would resign over this. That would be a huge PR dissaster. So they have rushed the CSM to Iceland to refine their spin on their commitment to non vanity items for MTs. They have succeeded via Jedi mind tricks, slight of hand demos of virtual vampire glamming and massive amounts of Icelandic adult beverage in crafing a sufficiently vague and misleading spin of their real plans that finally fooled the CSM.

The actual message is still being refined, this is the reason for the "legal and translation" dodge. If they weren't intending to spin this they could easily release the answer the players demand. "No, we are not ever going to have non-vanity MT items in game." That would address virtually everyone's main concern immediately. Since we aren't seeing such a simple an elegant solution to player unrest you have to assume there are massive shennigans in play.

So if you ask me this is what we can count on.

CCP is committed to what we will likely perceive as non-vanity items for MT in Eve.

CCP has refined messaging to make the claim that is not their plan. They have crafted some way to spin their plan as something "else" that will open up a wonderful world of chocolate bunnies in green fields in space and new weapons for expoding those very bunnies. Their message will contain a lot of distracting promises of space awesomeness based on best in class technologies (basically what we have heard from them for the last 3 years). Based on years of failure to deliver completed content or actually address major game play issues we know that these will be unrealized promises while CCP focuses on the new shiny of vampires and console kids.

CSM responses show so far that CCP can dazzle and confuse them. They can be bought. The promise of a player based oversight organization is a sham.

So I expect the response when it comes out will be finally wordcrafted in a manner that seems initially comprehensive and responsive but when truly parsed will essentially say "CCP will be doing whatever it wants to Eve regardless of the player feedback" and that "trends" in gaming involve microtransactions in a manner that can effect game play and that CCP is committed to that path to increase "the new player base".

Where will that leave us? Accept it or leave? Start recruiting members in corps and alliances based on net expendable RL income?

Or....

Accept that this is happening and realize that "play to win" has already been here in one form or another for a long time, that the effect of this will be no worse that the incomplete content and broken game mechanics we already choose to live with in Eve. The 'verse we know is changing and I don't think anyone, including CCP has any idea how this will all play out.

To quote my favorite cartoon character.

"Could be something good....... could be something bad..." and since CCP has pushed the shiny red button we'll just have to see which one it is!

Issler

Alejan Gerakh
Minmatar
Clan Hyena
Posted - 2011.07.01 21:42:00 - [265]
 

Originally by: Clavian Voi
Originally by: Imryn Xaran
It's been pretty obvious for a while that MT is going to go beyond purely vanity items. If it wasn't then we would have had a yes / no statement days ago.

This statement will hopefully tell us exactly where CCP are going to draw the line. I expect them to explain their reasoning and give lots of assurances that they will monitor things closely and be prepared to pull things if neccessary etc etc - to spin it in the best possible light.

Once we have the statement we will each have to decide if we can live with where they have drawn that line.


That's my assessment as well. It sounds as if they intend to use the "boiling frog" method to roll out non-vanity micro-sales in iterations so as not to completely **** off everyone all at once. If they have no plans whatsoever to cross that line then they would have said so days ago.

And if that's your stance, why are you still here?

Ein Spiegel
Minmatar
Fly-by-Night Industries LLC PTY LTD
Posted - 2011.07.01 21:43:00 - [266]
 

Some things I'm seeing from the exceptionally angry posts:

(paraphrased)

"RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE! THERE IS BLACK, OR THERE IS WHITE!! THERE IS NO GREY!"

Wait, what color are caldari ships again?

"BLACK OR WHITE, THERE IS NO GREY!"

Except, when I look at it, it's greyish. When you look at it, it's blackish. When that other guy looks at it, it's whitish. And when Miilla looks at it, it's fuschia but with the C in large and yellow font.

/troll

caldar ian
Final Destination.
Posted - 2011.07.01 21:45:00 - [267]
 

the fog of war ?

clbo
Posted - 2011.07.01 21:48:00 - [268]
 

Originally by: Kendra Wilkinson
Originally by: Ranger 1
Originally by: Govinda Sertan
Edited by: Govinda Sertan on 01/07/2011 20:08:43

The statement should have been released before you all went barhopping tonight.




Because our CSM delegates are qualified to act as translators. SLACKERS!!!


if you play EVE ONLINE you must able to read and speak ENGLISH (also if you arent native).
We dont care about localization in german and russian, we dont care about video of mittens and zulu doing a 69.



We is actually just you, and that's something I don't care about. As long as there's morons like you eve will pull trough no matter what.

Welderr
Posted - 2011.07.01 21:50:00 - [269]
 

Edited by: Welderr on 01/07/2011 21:52:23
Originally by: Tom Peeping
A: Yes we will extend MT beyond vanity items
B: No we will not extend MT beyond vanity items
If you insist on hearing one of those exact two options, it's been abundantly clear for over a week now that the answer is "Yes." If it were an unequivocal "No" they would've said so right from the start. I don't get why there still seems to be confusion on that point. The answer has always clearly been "Yes."

If that's the only answer you were looking for, you have it. There was no need to wait for the CSM meeting to do whatever it is you're going to do.

If, on the other hand, you want to know the extent to which non-vanity MT's will be available and how they'll affect the game, that's a much more complicated question, and probably open to some negotiation by us and the CSM, especially in light of the cancellations and the bad press the issue has generated. We'll just have to be patient and wait to see what comes out of the meeting.

Clavian Voi
Posted - 2011.07.01 21:53:00 - [270]
 

Originally by: Alejan Gerakh
And if that's your stance, why are you still here?


Because, like thousands of other players, I'm not 100 percent certain where EVE is headed or whether what CCP says can be taken at face value. And if CCP does end up going ahead with MT plans, I'll have to wait and see exactly what they have in mind to see whether I can live with the changes or not.

So I will wait and listen to what they have to say.


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