open All Channels
seplocked Assembly Hall
blankseplocked *****SHARES should have VALUE*****
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic

Fortis88
Posted - 2011.06.30 18:59:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Fortis88 on 04/07/2011 16:29:59
I propose that CCP allow shares to be BOUGHT and SOLD on the market instead of only GIVEN away. This would allow for the creation of an actual in-game stock market along with the items market we have now. If shares could be bought and sold with isk, players could invest in corporations. The players could also DIRECTLY affect the price of a corporation's shares by their own actions. This would include corporate wars, monopolies on resources, etc. To determine the value of a corporation's shares, there could be a "Rankings List". POINTS would determine where a corporation was ranked on this list. Points would be awarded to a corporation for their ASSETS, WAR ACHIEVEMENTS, TIME IN BUSINESS, and the NUMBER OF MEMBERS. This would allow only long-standing, well trusted corporations to make the list. The higher their rank on the "Rankings List", the more their stock would be worth. However, only 49% of the corporations shares would be sold on the market. The other 51% would remain in the CEO's possession. Overall, I believe this will allow for a more dynamic and real stock market in the EVE universe.




Bash Rinah
Posted - 2011.06.30 21:50:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Bash Rinah on 30/06/2011 21:59:46
I think that is a great idea, it would bring a whole new angle to the game and would give players a chance to generate true corporations. Great idea!

much better than your last suggestion.

Fortis88
Posted - 2011.06.30 22:12:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Fortis88
I propose that CCP allow shares to be bought and sold on the market. Once shares are purchased, the owner will receive .10% profit per 1 share of 50% of the corporations monthly profit. The shareholder will receive these profits at the 1st of the month. If you do the math, at 500 shares, a shareholder will receive 50% of the 50% of the corporation's profit allotment. The other 50% that is not divided among the shareholders will be invested back into the corporation (master wallet). This will allow for a more dynamic and real stock market in the EVE universe.

Frodrich Adoudel
Posted - 2011.06.30 22:46:00 - [4]
 

But, that is not how stock works IRL.

You would need to have a board of directors that would vote on the stock dividends paid out.

I agree, stocks should be tradable on a stock market as well as having quarterly or monthly dividend payments.

It would also allow corps to do takeovers.

Adding stock cannot dilute the value of current stock without increasing the value of the company to compensate.

Antadark
Gallente
The Black Legionnares
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2011.07.01 10:11:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Frodrich Adoudel
But, that is not how stock works IRL.

You would need to have a board of directors that would vote on the stock dividends paid out.

I agree, stocks should be tradable on a stock market as well as having quarterly or monthly dividend payments.

It would also allow corps to do takeovers.

Adding stock cannot dilute the value of current stock without increasing the value of the company to compensate.


Still I support this or at least some thought in this direction

Manique
Caldari
Ominous Corp
Posted - 2011.07.01 10:22:00 - [6]
 

won't work in the current market. wait for eve to evolve more.

Rodrom Caldera
Gallente
Don't look at me
Posted - 2011.07.01 11:33:00 - [7]
 

This is a very intresting idea. But a old one.

It should be possible with current gamemechanics to implement such a market.

But alot of companies should change there strategy.
Value of a share should be assigned by Real value of assets.
for instance:

Money = 50% of its value
Assets in lockdown = 100% of its value
Assets not in lockdown = 80% of its value.
Mineral = 80% of its value

Value is determed on market average.

This way shares wil go up or down due to the market and adding of new assets to the share corporation.

Working with a poolsystem wil get this to work better

Corporation wil own There part of the shares.
The poolsystem wil have the rest of the shares.
players can buy from the pool. or from other players.

Buy shares = 110% of value
Sell shares = 80% of value
Tax: depending on skills betwean 5 and 10% (money sink)

I will post a compleet worked out version of this system soon.

I have reason to markup the current prices. this to do with market fluxuations. And giving the Corporation some breathroom

greets and regards
Rodrom Caldera

Uronksur Suth
Posted - 2011.07.01 17:27:00 - [8]
 

Sounds nice. Yes, please.

Fortis88
Posted - 2011.07.01 17:52:00 - [9]
 

I agree that there should be a system in place that allows for the value to fluctuate. However, I think the value of shares should rely on more than just isk/assets of the corporation. The value should also rely on the actions of the corporation and its members. If a corporation defeats a corporate competitor in a skirmish, for example, this should be reflected. Just a thought.

Rodrom Caldera
Gallente
Don't look at me
Posted - 2011.07.01 22:13:00 - [10]
 

Yes i understand. But how is the game mechanics able to read these achievements? and how would this relate to the shares. Share = Real value. Achievement = nothing. Investors are intrested in only 1 thing. Profit. That it. easy as pie.

But to trow you a ball. How would you see this happening?

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.02 10:36:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Frodrich Adoudel
It would also allow corps to do takeovers.


So have non-voting shares.

Fortis88
Posted - 2011.07.02 17:59:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Toovhon
Originally by: Frodrich Adoudel
It would also allow corps to do takeovers.


So have non-voting shares.



To avoid this, only 49% of the shares are sold on the stock market. The CEO retains 51% of the shares since they are the ones who started the Corporation.

Fortis88
Posted - 2011.07.02 18:03:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Rodrom Caldera
Yes i understand. But how is the game mechanics able to read these achievements? and how would this relate to the shares. Share = Real value. Achievement = nothing. Investors are intrested in only 1 thing. Profit. That it. easy as pie.

But to trow you a ball. How would you see this happening?



I propose a "Rank List". This list would determine the value of a corporations shares. Points would be awarded for a corporations assets as well as they war victories. If they gained enough points, they could move up in the "rank list" say from #10 corp. to #9 corp. This would then affect the value of their shares. (by the way i meant to quote you and i hit the report button by mistake. my bad bro.) But i like your ideas so feel free to add to my suggestion.

MorliDots22
Posted - 2011.07.02 19:43:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: MorliDots22 on 05/07/2011 23:34:15
I support this idea.

A good thing would be to sell stock-options in contracts: For those who dont know : Options are a kind of security against market risk but holds also a risk for speculants. For example Im a Miner so I need to sell minerals. I say in a contract at xx xx xx date I sell X ore for 10 ISK per unit. If the price on this date is higher the buyer make more profit. If not I make profit but the main thing is I can be sure that I will be able to sell my ore.

Normal players could build kind of fund-corporation to collect ISK and invest it in this buisness. Also it would be possible to construct capital-ships this way much easier. If 1000 players give each 100m to a fund then the fund is 100b big. For this sum the foundation builds a titan or aeon and sells it on the market. Every member get a profit of the investment. Maybe its exist also now but it consist all on trust - with implemeting this in contract system would be much better.

L'amour Sauvage
Underworld Group
Posted - 2011.07.02 20:37:00 - [15]
 

I forgot about shares.
I'd totally get into a new purposeful corp share system.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.07.02 21:04:00 - [16]
 

Yes for shares. Can be a new class of shares if this current system can not be adapted. Current ones are "Class A", have some voting rights etc, and new ones can be "Class B" and get listed on some exchange. Maybe charge 10,000,000 ISK for the listing so that not every rinky dink corp (like mine) goes up there.

P.S. Bond system too! (working on proposal for that btw)

Guamman
Posted - 2011.07.03 17:04:00 - [17]
 

this idea will definitely add another dimension to the market and as such i support this

Dare X
Caldari
The 0ffice of Secret Intelligence
SoulWing Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.03 18:23:00 - [18]
 

I appreciate the thought that's gone into this and would add that extra missing dimension to the game that corporations have been lacking.

killmc
Gallente
Navajo commandos

Posted - 2011.07.03 20:16:00 - [19]
 

+1 it be nice have stock market

Doctor Invictus
Gallente
Industry and Investments

Posted - 2011.07.03 21:28:00 - [20]
 

Very nice.

Cloora
APEX Unlimited
APEX Conglomerate
Posted - 2011.07.03 21:55:00 - [21]
 

I have wanted this for a long time.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.04 03:01:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Fortis88
Originally by: Rodrom Caldera
Yes i understand. But how is the game mechanics able to read these achievements? and how would this relate to the shares. Share = Real value. Achievement = nothing. Investors are intrested in only 1 thing. Profit. That it. easy as pie.

But to trow you a ball. How would you see this happening?



I propose a "Rank List". This list would determine the value of a corporations shares. Points would be awarded for a corporations assets as well as they war victories. If they gained enough points, they could move up in the "rank list" say from #10 corp. to #9 corp. This would then affect the value of their shares. (by the way i meant to quote you and i hit the report button by mistake. my bad bro.) But i like your ideas so feel free to add to my suggestion.


Okay, I support this thread in principle, but your proposal needs more work.

The idea above won't work. I don't put money into Apple because they are 'cooler'. I put money into them because I can make a profit on their shares. Artificially creating a price for shares of a corp on something as fuzzy and not related to asset value like 'acheivements' is going to end in market crash, or people to game the achievements model. Example off the top of my head. Corp is formed, isk is moved from a parent corp. Everyone ganks for a week or whatever, makes a ranking, dumps the shares, makes a profit for all members and disbands corp. Rinse repeat. Do it once and people stop trusting the price of the shares on the market and the whole ranking thing becomes a joke.

In fact, we've hit on the fundamental reason why this proposal has been proposed countless times in the past, but has NEVER materialized. It's because most people overlook the FUNDAMENTAL foundation of a equity market. A credit system. Without a credit/bankruptcy system and accountability laws, anyone can make a corp, pump and dump the stock, and make off like corp thieves with the public's money, hey you americans should know how that feels like now. You would think the financial crisis would have taught you a lesson or 2. You need a banking system to value companies, and a system to hold companies and banks accountable for their actions.

Without this, stock prices will be manipulated. (hey we have a free ISK/item transfer system in EVE, with no accountability)

See my past proposal about adding money laundering laws (the first step in installing accountability to the financial system)

Money Laundering

Most of the responders are clueless when it comes to the real workings of the financial system, so it didn't get too favourable a response, but some actually did point out some good game mechanics reasons why this would fundamentally be difficult to implement in EVE. But I do think that they can be worked around.

Fortis88
Posted - 2011.07.04 16:09:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Originally by: Fortis88
Originally by: Rodrom Caldera
Yes i understand. But how is the game mechanics able to read these achievements? and how would this relate to the shares. Share = Real value. Achievement = nothing. Investors are intrested in only 1 thing. Profit. That it. easy as pie.

But to trow you a ball. How would you see this happening?



I propose a "Rank List". This list would determine the value of a corporations shares. Points would be awarded for a corporations assets as well as they war victories. If they gained enough points, they could move up in the "rank list" say from #10 corp. to #9 corp. This would then affect the value of their shares. (by the way i meant to quote you and i hit the report button by mistake. my bad bro.) But i like your ideas so feel free to add to my suggestion.


Okay, I support this thread in principle, but your proposal needs more work.

The idea above won't work. I don't put money into Apple because they are 'cooler'. I put money into them because I can make a profit on their shares. Artificially creating a price for shares of a corp on something as fuzzy and not related to asset value like 'acheivements' is going to end in market crash, or people to game the achievements model. Example off the top of my head. Corp is formed, isk is moved from a parent corp. Everyone ganks for a week or whatever, makes a ranking, dumps the shares, makes a profit for all members and disbands corp. Rinse repeat. Do it once and people stop trusting the price of the shares on the market and the whole ranking thing becomes a joke.

In fact, we've hit on the fundamental reason why this proposal has been proposed countless times in the past, but has NEVER materialized. It's because most people overlook the FUNDAMENTAL foundation of a equity market. A credit system. Without a credit/bankruptcy system and accountability laws, anyone can make a corp, pump and dump the stock, and make off like corp thieves with the public's money, hey you americans should know how that feels like now. You would think the financial crisis would have taught you a lesson or 2. You need a banking system to value companies, and a system to hold companies and banks accountable for their actions.

Without this, stock prices will be manipulated. (hey we have a free ISK/item transfer system in EVE, with no accountability)

See my past proposal about adding money laundering laws (the first step in installing accountability to the financial system)

Money Laundering

Most of the responders are clueless when it comes to the real workings of the financial system, so it didn't get too favourable a response, but some actually did point out some good game mechanics reasons why this would fundamentally be difficult to implement in EVE. But I do think that they can be worked around.




This is a necessary idea. And keep national pilitics out of this. It is a game. That is very tacky. It does need work. That is why it has been proposed. To be talked about and have the kinks worked out.

Fortis88
Posted - 2011.07.04 16:23:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Fortis88 on 04/07/2011 16:23:23
To solve your LITTLE problem, their would be a "time in business" requirement necessary to make the "Rankings List". To move up in the ranks would be determined by ASSETS, TIME in business, and the NUMBER OF with corporate membership. This would solve the issue of trust since only long standing massive membership corporations would have the public's trust. See problem solved. Wasn't that easy? Next.

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.07.04 16:55:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Rodrom Caldera
Yes i understand. But how is the game mechanics able to read these achievements? and how would this relate to the shares. Share = Real value. Achievement = nothing. Investors are intrested in only 1 thing. Profit. That it. easy as pie.

But to trow you a ball. How would you see this happening?


A computer decides the stock value of real life companies. It wouldn't have to be any different in EVE.

Anyway, the corporation would have to decide to go IPO to be publicly traded. The percentage of the shares in the IPO should be customizable, up to and including 100%. A new corporate function for publicly traded corps with more than 40% shares on the public market would be to have a Board of Directors that consists entirely of the top 5, 7, 9, or 11 shareholders including the Chairman. The CEO cannot be on the Board. The Board is essentially the representative body for shareholder interests.

Nobody can gain more shares after IPO without paying for them, including the CEO and Directors, unless there is a split or a compensation plan that awards shares for performance.

The Stock Exchange would be a submarket similar to the current market, but separated from it entirely.

Publicly traded corporations would have to run the books like a real corporation to remain tradeable. A given corp would have to retain 50% of the public share value in the wallet at all times.

Max Kolonko
Caldari
Worm Nation
Ash Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.04 17:34:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Max Kolonko on 04/07/2011 17:37:46
Originally by: Val'Dore

A computer decides the stock value of real life companies. It wouldn't have to be any different in EVE.

Anyway, the corporation would have to decide to go IPO to be publicly traded. The percentage of the shares in the IPO should be customizable, up to and including 100%. A new corporate function for publicly traded corps with more than 40% shares on the public market would be to have a Board of Directors that consists entirely of the top 5, 7, 9, or 11 shareholders including the Chairman. The CEO cannot be on the Board. The Board is essentially the representative body for shareholder interests.

Nobody can gain more shares after IPO without paying for them, including the CEO and Directors, unless there is a split or a compensation plan that awards shares for performance.

The Stock Exchange would be a submarket similar to the current market, but separated from it entirely.

Publicly traded corporations would have to run the books like a real corporation to remain tradeable. A given corp would have to retain 50% of the public share value in the wallet at all times.


since when? I'm not stock expert, but as far as I know there are rating agencies that calculates the value of company when it goes publick with its shares. And after that the price is ONLY buy/sell orders like our eve market, so no computing of value or anything like this. The price of a single share is what you can buy/sell it for. Now it is true that once someone calculates that the company iis no longer worth 1b but lets say 500m than this gets published in a yearly/queterly report or some press article so it affect prices if shareholders will panic and start to sell dramatically.

just my 2 cents

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.07.04 20:27:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Max Kolonko
Edited by: Max Kolonko on 04/07/2011 17:37:46
Originally by: Val'Dore

A computer decides the stock value of real life companies. It wouldn't have to be any different in EVE.

Anyway, the corporation would have to decide to go IPO to be publicly traded. The percentage of the shares in the IPO should be customizable, up to and including 100%. A new corporate function for publicly traded corps with more than 40% shares on the public market would be to have a Board of Directors that consists entirely of the top 5, 7, 9, or 11 shareholders including the Chairman. The CEO cannot be on the Board. The Board is essentially the representative body for shareholder interests.

Nobody can gain more shares after IPO without paying for them, including the CEO and Directors, unless there is a split or a compensation plan that awards shares for performance.

The Stock Exchange would be a submarket similar to the current market, but separated from it entirely.

Publicly traded corporations would have to run the books like a real corporation to remain tradeable. A given corp would have to retain 50% of the public share value in the wallet at all times.


since when? I'm not stock expert, but as far as I know there are rating agencies that calculates the value of company when it goes publick with its shares.


Which is done with complex formulae that are left to be crunched by computers.

Quote:
And after that the price is ONLY buy/sell orders like our eve market, so no computing of value or anything like this.


The value of the shares are calculated to be the price at which they are trading currently. Not necessarily the actual value of the company. EVE Market is not currently designed to handle a fluid price system like a stock market.

Quote:
The price of a single share is what you can buy/sell it for. Now it is true that once someone calculates that the company iis no longer worth 1b but lets say 500m than this gets published in a yearly/queterly report or some press article so it affect prices if shareholders will panic and start to sell dramatically.


Daytraders are what really affects stock prices since they are constantly jockeying for position on the market. The vast majority of stockholders are not that infused with ADHD, and any significant activity by them as a whole will affect the price the stock trades at more.

All of which is handled by a computerized system running complex formulations.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.07.05 02:54:00 - [28]
 

On this sub-thread of corporation worth. Does it even need to be that complicated?

Suppose the shares, when you checked on the info, market graph/etc also showed a dividend history. If you see a corp not paying dividends, then don't buy it. We can calculate PE, heck the graph or a new graph could show historical PE along with market history.

Nice data to have would be price, dividend history, outstanding shares, shares owned by the corp, largest ten holders, how widely held, total capitalization. Leave it up to players to decide if the offering is worth anything or not.

This sort of information should be enough to allow wise people to see if a stock is worth its price. And in Eve, since its so easy to scam and shift assets around, will having a calculated net worth of a corp be of any real use anyway? I wouldn't trust it with your ten foot pole, assuming anyone here has a ten foot pole, gutter minds.

The information I listed, could not be faked but still leaves lots of room for the evil games people like to play.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.05 06:50:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Fortis88
Edited by: Fortis88 on 04/07/2011 16:23:23
To solve your LITTLE problem, their would be a "time in business" requirement necessary to make the "Rankings List". To move up in the ranks would be determined by ASSETS, TIME in business, and the NUMBER OF with corporate membership. This would solve the issue of trust since only long standing massive membership corporations would have the public's trust. See problem solved. Wasn't that easy? Next.



Adding another artificial 'solution' to the problem doesn't fix anything. It just proves that we can go on and on finding loopholes, and you coming up with 'patches' for them. :)

I really don't think that this line of argument will be fruitful, but just to show you that we 'can' go on forever...

So I start up a holding corp. leave it running for 3 years. Day 1, I issue stock to my friends of this corp. Day 2 I put ALL the money made from my WH alliance into it, the whole bank, this includes the treasuries of many corps in my alliance. stock price shoots through the roof because stock price is determined by some fixed formula *shakes head*. Day 3+ we sell our stock, make lots of isk.
suck out all the money out of the holding corp put back into alliance. price drops, we don't care, we sold all shares already.

Stock prices (heck any commodity) cannot be set by a formula. It doesn't work. If you managed to figure out a way that this would work, then you would have invented communism.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.05 06:57:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 05/07/2011 06:57:27
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
On this sub-thread of corporation worth. Does it even need to be that complicated?

Suppose the shares, when you checked on the info, market graph/etc also showed a dividend history. If you see a corp not paying dividends, then don't buy it. We can calculate PE, heck the graph or a new graph could show historical PE along with market history.

Nice data to have would be price, dividend history, outstanding shares, shares owned by the corp, largest ten holders, how widely held, total capitalization. Leave it up to players to decide if the offering is worth anything or not.

This sort of information should be enough to allow wise people to see if a stock is worth its price. And in Eve, since its so easy to scam and shift assets around, will having a calculated net worth of a corp be of any real use anyway? I wouldn't trust it with your ten foot pole, assuming anyone here has a ten foot pole, gutter minds.

The information I listed, could not be faked but still leaves lots of room for the evil games people like to play.


A step in the right direction, but still the problem is that a corp can liquidate all its assets without ANY say from the shareholders. Thereby making shareholders essentially powerless.

A good start would be to allow shareholders to vote on important corp decisions and having a periodic financial report. But this is a Sisyphean task, as long as directors can pull money out/in at will, and as long as money moves without regulation in the galaxy, there can never be enough 'trust' in the system for people to buy any equity shares.

As much as I would LOVE to see this, it just won't happen in EVE without some big regulatory changes to install trust in the market in credit, both personal credit and corporate credit.


Pages: [1] 2

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only